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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 21st June 2020, 10:23 PM   #41
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I can't think of any dude, gay or straight, that I have met who has been butch, nor any woman who was camp. I guess there could be some, but I don't see the relevance of these words "butch" and "camp" to a discussion on gender. Maybe you could explain.

.

I can't see how any chick can be anything except feminine



But then I use "feminine" to refer to gender, whereas you appear to be using it in some odd sense that does not relate to gender. Maybe you could explain that too.
That would be because feminine isn't a gender
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:29 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Depends how deep you look into it.

It must be fairly built in to what we perceive as feminine and masculine traits or biologically we wouldn't find it attractive.

So probably biological and a pinch of social.

Obviously it is an ancient thing.

I didn't bring up the terms and it has nothing to do with trans people so not sure what you are asking
Let's go through it again then.

I am saying that if you think it is possible for there to be an unmasculine man or boy, or an unfeminine woman or girl then you must be saying that gender is, at least partly a social construct, because "feminine" and "masculine" are terms that refer to gender.

Your response seemed to imply that you don't think that "masculine" and "feminine" are terms that relate to gender and so I am firstly asking you to confirm that you don't think these terms relate to gender and secondly asking what you do mean by them.
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:30 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That would be because feminine isn't a gender
Do you mean that it doesn't refer to gender?

Or does it?

If not then what on earth do you mean by the term???
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Let's go through it again then.



I am saying that if you think it is possible for there to be an unmasculine man or boy, or an unfeminine woman or girl then you must be saying that gender is, at least partly a social construct, because "feminine" and "masculine" are terms that refer to gender.



Your response seemed to imply that you don't think that "masculine" and "feminine" are terms that relate to gender and so I am firstly asking you to confirm that you don't think these terms relate to gender and secondly asking what you do mean by them.
No.

I have been saying feminine and masculine are not related to someone's personal gender.

With regard to what they mean again it is probably a mix of what the sexes biologically find attractive. With a bit of social thrown in.

Is a peacock flashing it feathers in a display to get laid social?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Do you mean that it doesn't refer to gender?



Or does it?



If not then what on earth do you mean by the term???
You tell me.

You brought it into a conversation about trans people when it irrelevant
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:43 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No.

I have been saying feminine and masculine are not related to someone's personal gender.

With regard to what they mean again it is probably a mix of what the sexes biologically find attractive. With a bit of social thrown in.

Is a peacock flashing it feathers in a display to get laid social?
Well I am not sure what you mean by the terms.

I started by noting that if gender was just about a person's biological sex then "an effeminate boy" would be meaningless - a contradiction.

I wonder if anyone here could be specific about what traits a boy would have in order to be "effeminate". I note that I was regarded as an effeminate boy in school and no-one was ever able to explain what they meant by it.

Something to do with not liking sport or not appreciating the perfunctory textbook rock and roll of AC/DC I think, but I am not sure.

I would love to find out one day.
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:48 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You tell me.

You brought it into a conversation about trans people when it irrelevant
You responded to me, not I to you.

I said "Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?"

You disagreed, so you should be the one to tell me in what way a male person can behave that is not "masculine" and what you mean by the term.

As far as I am concerned "masculine' can mean nothing more than "behaving like a male person" and "feminine" "behaving like a female person".
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:50 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Well I am not sure what you mean by the terms.



I started by noting that if gender was just about a person's biological sex then "an effeminate boy" would be meaningless - a contradiction.



I wonder if anyone here could be specific about what traits a boy would have in order to be "effeminate". I note that I was regarded as an effeminate boy in school and no-one was ever able to explain what they meant by it.



Something to do with not liking sport or not appreciating the perfunctory textbook rock and roll of AC/DC I think, but I am not sure.



I would love to find out one day.
From my understanding gender has nothing to do with biological sex.

Sex - m/f (on very rare occasions who knows)

Gender - apparently to the woke. Inner feelings of what you feel you should be. Massive scale apparently. But it gets boring to talk about.

Feminine/masculine - traits people portray to the opposite sex/or in some cases same sex to get their sexy bits excited
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

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Old 21st June 2020, 10:55 PM   #49
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I also don't know what the stupid sneer word "woke" means.
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:58 PM   #50
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I also don't know that the stupid sneer word "woke" means.
Apologies

I just get a bit bored with people trying to merge sex and gender and moving the goalposts on what gender is.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 21st June 2020, 10:59 PM   #51
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I doubt the people in high school who were insisting that I was effeminate or not masculine or that I was not a man were what anyone would describe as "woke".
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Old 21st June 2020, 11:02 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Apologies

I just get a bit bored with people trying to merge sex and gender and moving the goalposts on what gender is.
I am asking what the goal posts are.

I know that I got tired of people telling me I was not a man, but apparently if I say "OK, have it your way I am not a man" people will get angry and say "Oh yes you are".

I have never had any idea where the goal posts are and most of the time I don't care because I am probably playing a different game anyway.
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Old 21st June 2020, 11:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I doubt the people in high school who were insisting that I was effeminate or not masculine or that I was not a man were what anyone would describe as "woke".
They wouldn't have been.

They would have been stupid idiot kids.

The woke ones would have been trying to get you to chose what gender you think you are on a massive sliding scale.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 21st June 2020, 11:10 PM   #54
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I had these discussions with a number of trans women back in the 80s. Unfortunately these conversations would probably be regarded as transphobia or hate speech.

I have always thought it stupid to be critical of anyone for behaving in a way that is not regarded as being conventional for a particular sex and I have felt that the whole idea of being trans gender reinforced the attitudes that saw me bullied at school.

I would ask "what is the difference between being a woman and being a man who feels they way you do?"

I don't know, maybe we have to go with what society is saying at the current time. I always seem to be out of step one way or the other.
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Old 21st June 2020, 11:13 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
They wouldn't have been.

They would have been stupid idiot kids.
Yes, but they were pretty much a reflection of stupid idiot society of the time.

Quote:
The woke ones would have been trying to get you to chose what gender you think you are on a massive sliding scale.
There weren't any around at the time and place, but if they had I would have asked them to give me at least some idea of how to tell what "gender" I am.
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Old 21st June 2020, 11:18 PM   #56
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There was a YouTube personality posted in some earlier version of this thread who attempted to ridicule the idea of getting rid of gender by suggesting that it would involve everybody plain undifferentiated clothes, hairstyles, no make-up and talk in robot voices.

I can't imagine how it is even possible to miss the point so completely.

Getting rid of gender would mean that all of us could dress, do our hair, put on slap or not, and talk and act in any way which we felt comfortable and not give a damn about what "gender" that would entail that we were embracing.
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Old 21st June 2020, 11:19 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I had these discussions with a number of trans women back in the 80s. Unfortunately these conversations would probably be regarded as transphobia or hate speech.



I have always thought it stupid to be critical of anyone for behaving in a way that is not regarded as being conventional for a particular sex and I have felt that the whole idea of being trans gender reinforced the attitudes that saw me bullied at school.



I would ask "what is the difference between being a woman and being a man who feels they way you do?"



I don't know, maybe we have to go with what society is saying at the current time. I always seem to be out of step one way or the other.
Personally don't care what people feel they are.

As long as it doesn't involve being an axe murder lol

I just think with every decision there are things you have to deal with from it.

In the case of chosing to live openly as a trans woman. You don't get to hang out in girls changing rooms or play professional female sports comps.

I chose to move back from London after 10 years. I don't have decent public transport anymore and the pay is crappier.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 22nd June 2020, 01:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That's the crucial bit of the article, IMO.
It's all just the same misgendering excused by the incorrect idea that in order to grant rights to one group you have to take them away from another. Nobody is erasing anything.

Quote:
Human females of reproductive age have good reason to band together to work for sexual equality, and they deserve a banner under which to do so. Arguing that women must be denuded of such a banner strikes me as, well, a bit regressive.
Nobody is advocating for that. Or, if they are, it's not a mainstream view, and is not one that anybody has been shown to be advocating for in this thread while I've been reading it. It's absolutely, certainly not something that happened in the article that Rowling decided to have a go at.

Quote:
Which I'm sure you'd be happy to accurately excerpt and factually debunk whenever you've got the time.
There's already been a long twitter thread posted going through it in detail.

Quote:
The justification in question mentioned the "menstruators" problem exactly once, at which point Rowling characterized trans activists as attempting to be loving and kind. I suppose you can call that TERFing if you like, but it's hard to take seriously.
Oh come on. I used to think you were better than this.

I'm not going to go back and do the "arguing about arguing" thing, but if you're going to reply to me, please make your replies relevant to the context of the things that you're quoting, rather than changing the subject midstream in order to try to engineer a gotcha.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 02:35 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If gender was entirely determined by biological sex then every biological male would, by definition, be masculine and every biological female would, by definition, be feminine.
No, that doesn't follow at all. Since when is biology so black-and-white?
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Old 22nd June 2020, 04:22 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Nobody is advocating for that. Or, if they are, it's not a mainstream view, and is not one that anybody has been shown to be advocating for in this thread while I've been reading it.
Do you think it is okay for human females of childbearing age to advocate for their unique medical needs under the banner of "women's rights" and "women's health" or would you call that misgendering and bigotry?

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Old 22nd June 2020, 04:32 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Do you think it is okay for human females of childbearing age to advocate for their unique medical needs under the banner of "women's rights" or not?
Sure.

I don't think it's the optimal term, since it there are people with those same needs who aren't women, and there are women who don't have those same needs, but nobody is saying that they shouldn't be allowed to.

This whole kerfuffle started, if you remember, with the prohibition coming from the other side. With Rowling saying that the menstrual health experts who authored an article about menstrual health shouldn't use the term "people who menstruate", and when called out wrote a long, factually inaccurate anti-trans screed in order to try to justify it. Which, and I may have mentioned this before, was stupid and wrong.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 04:38 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I would have thought that the "trans women aren't women" crowd ought, in order to be consistent, also to be agreeing with the statement "there is no such thing as an effeminate boy or an effeminate man"

Shouldn't any way in which a male person behaves be, by definition, masculine?
No, because the words "man/woman" are defined as male/female humans (ie defined by sex) and the words "masculine/feminine/effeminate" are defined as behaviours stereotypically associated with men/women (ie defined by gender). And it is perfectly possible for a male human to display behaviour stereotypically associated with female humans (ie being an "effeminate man").

Of course, it is always possible to redefine words to make any proposition evaluate to true. For example "transwomen are women" can be made to evaluate to true by changing the definition of "women" or "the Earth is flat" can be made to evaluate to true by changing the definition of "flat" or "1 + 1 = 3" can be made to evaluate to true by changing the definition of "3". That's just empty sophistry though.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 04:40 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't think it's the optimal term, since it there are people with those same needs who aren't women, and there are women who don't have those same needs, but nobody is saying that they shouldn't be allowed to.
It doesn't sound like you believe there is actually an English word for female people of at least childbearing age, not even one which only denotes that meaning some of the time.

ETA: I suppose the plaintiff in Whole Woman's Health v. HellerstedtWP is going to need to focus group some new ideas.

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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am asking what the goal posts are.

I know that I got tired of people telling me I was not a man, but apparently if I say "OK, have it your way I am not a man" people will get angry and say "Oh yes you are".

I have never had any idea where the goal posts are and most of the time I don't care because I am probably playing a different game anyway.
I am interested to see if Rolfe will answer your question. She was the one who said trans girls are "effeminate youths".
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, because the words "man/woman" are defined as male/female humans (ie defined by sex) and the words "masculine/feminine/effeminate" are defined as behaviours stereotypically associated with men/women (ie defined by gender). And it is perfectly possible for a male human to display behaviour stereotypically associated with female humans (ie being an "effeminate man")
Well give me a concrete example of what you are talking about. Give me one or two behaviours that are stereotypically associated with being a girl that would make a boy "effeminate".
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:28 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Well give me a concrete example of what you are talking about. Give me one or two behaviours that are stereotypically associated with being a girl that would make a boy "effeminate".
From Wikipedia:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Traits traditionally cited as feminine include gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity,[7][8][9] though traits associated with femininity vary across societies and individuals,[10] and are influenced by a variety of social and cultural factors.[11]
You didn't specify relative to which culture you wanted an answer, so I'm just assuming you mean our current culture. Either way, that's 4 there.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:36 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
From Wikipedia:


You didn't specify relative to which culture you wanted an answer, so I'm just assuming you mean our current culture. Either way, that's 4 there.
So if you saw a boy who was gentle, empathetic, humble and sensitive you would call him effeminate?
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:39 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So if you saw a boy who was gentle, empathetic, humble and sensitive you would call him effeminate?
No, because I have better things to do than categorize individuals' behaviour according to arbitrary socially-conventional "behaviour templates." It doesn't stop the description of "effeminate boy" from being true though, at least relative to our culture. If I saw a bald person I also wouldn't go tell him "dude, you're bald!" but that doesn't stop him being, in fact, bald.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:42 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So you think that gender is is, at least partly, a social construct, right?

If gender was entirely determined by biological sex then every biological male would, by definition, be masculine and every biological female would, by definition, be feminine.
What if gender is influenced by sex, and highly correlated with it, but a different thing?

Upper body strength is influenced by sex, and highly correlated with it, but it's a different thing.

But that doesn't mean it's a social construct.

I think gender is partly a social construct, but I'm not seeing anything in your argument that demonstrates that fact.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:44 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
What if gender is influenced by sex, and highly correlated with it, but a different thing?

Upper body strength is influenced by sex, and highly correlated with it, but it's a different thing.

But that doesn't mean it's a social construct.

I think gender is partly a social construct, but I'm not seeing anything in your argument that demonstrates that fact.
Then that would be sexual dimorphism, not gender.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:48 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
What if gender is influenced by sex, and highly correlated with it, but a different thing?

Upper body strength is influenced by sex, and highly correlated with it, but it's a different thing.

But that doesn't mean it's a social construct.

I think gender is partly a social construct, but I'm not seeing anything in your argument that demonstrates that fact.
I am not trying to demonstrate that fact, I don't know what led you to think I was. I am saying that people who think that phrases like "effeminate boy", or "unfeminine woman" don't see gender as being purely to do with biological sex.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:54 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I am not trying to demonstrate that fact, I don't know what led you to think I was. I am saying that people who think that phrases like "effeminate boy", or "unfeminine woman" don't see gender as being purely to do with biological sex.
Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood. Did you mean for there to be a logical connection between the question:
"So you think that gender is is, at least partly, a social construct, right?"
And the statement:

"If gender was entirely determined by biological sex then every biological male would, by definition, be masculine and every biological female would, by definition, be feminine."
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Old 22nd June 2020, 05:57 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, because I have better things to do than categorize individuals' behaviour according to arbitrary socially-conventional "behaviour templates." It doesn't stop the description of "effeminate boy" from being true though, at least relative to our culture. If I saw a bald person I also wouldn't go tell him "dude, you're bald!" but that doesn't stop him being, in fact, bald.
If a boy who was gentle, empathetic, humble and sensitive would you think he was effeminate?
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:01 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Then that would be sexual dimorphism, not gender.
I suspect that there is some sexual dimorphism in human behavior that is associated with gender roles, though certainly there are also many gender roles that don't fit that description and are really social constructs.

But my point really was just that there choice isn't between completely determined by biological sex and social construct. It's possible for sex to influence gendered behaviors without completely determining them. And while I have my opinion on that, I'm not attempting to argue for that view, only to say that it's not ruled by logically. But Robin may not actually have been making that argument anyway.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:02 AM   #75
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Personally I think the idea that gentleness, empathy, humility and sensitivity are effeminate or feminine traits is irredeemably daft.

Sorry to impugn the high intellectual authority of Wikipedia.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:03 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
So if you saw a boy who was gentle, empathetic, humble and sensitive you would call him effeminate?
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that he did. What next?
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:10 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If a boy who was gentle, empathetic, humble and sensitive would you think he was effeminate?
No, because I have better things to do think about than categorize individuals' behaviour according to arbitrary socially-conventional "behaviour templates."
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:20 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Personally I think the idea that gentleness, empathy, humility and sensitivity are effeminate or feminine traits is irredeemably daft.

Sorry to impugn the high intellectual authority of Wikipedia.
Of course it's irredeemably daft. Most things people think are irredeemably daft. It doesn't make the description of "effeminate boy" relative to our culture any less true, though.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:23 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It doesn't sound like you believe there is actually an English word for female people of at least childbearing age, not even one which only denotes that meaning some of the time.
You are, of course, free to make up whatever opinions for me you wish. By now I'm used to people in this thread doing that.
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Old 22nd June 2020, 06:51 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Of course it's irredeemably daft. Most things people think are irredeemably daft. It doesn't make the description of "effeminate boy" relative to our culture any less true, though.
I doubt that it is true, relative to our culture. Maybe things are different where you live.

I don't think that many in our culture who would consider gentleness, humility, empathy or sensitivity to be in any way unmasculine.

People generally ascribe effeminacy in terms of body language, manner of talking and so on.
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