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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 24th June 2020, 11:55 AM   #321
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Again arguing the minutia of some "Well according to Dorland's Medical Encyclopedia" definition of edge cases seems like a point nobody is arguing.

I don't get what the Intersex discussion is supposed to prove in the Transgender discussion.

The vague "Well it proves gender isn't binary" is like saying the platypus proves that all mammal lay eggs.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:00 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You admit you privilege living vs unliving equines? That's pretty racist.
I'm talking about dead horses in general, not just dead race horses.

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And totally indefensible until you can present an utterly watertight philosophical argument explaining exactly what life actually is, because we can't decide how to treat anybody unless we have all the background worked out completely.
Dead horses which are beaten repeatedly are rarely watertight anymore. I speak from hard-earned experience.

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Stands?! In a post about leglessness?! How dare you, sir? How very dare you! You're as unfeeling as someone who lost all their nerves in an accident and then got barred from a nerveless-only airport lounge!
Why, the nerve of you!
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:09 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Yes edge cases of actual medical conditions causing intersexed individuals are a thing, but for 99% of the population genital structure and chromosomes and the like are a consistent binary X or Y thing.
I'm still fascinated by the possibility of mixed sex chimeras, a subject which has apparently received very little scientific attention. They would not necessarily present as intersex, but the condition might be relevant to transgenderism. One might have, for example, a genetically female brain in a genetically male body. That would look like a simple biological male.

If a transgender person discovered that they had such a condition, the information might prove useful to them. It could help them and their family come to terms with their dysphoria as having a biological basis rather than a sort of mental illness, and it would also push back against religious fundamentalist objections to transgenderism. But it's not going to make the activist base happy, because it cuts against the self-identification dogma. So it's a sort of weird possibility that people on multiple sides don't really want to look at too closely.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:15 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Please read what I write without the filter of what you would like to refute.
"No you!" is not a very clever response, Giordano.

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I am well aware of what intersex means.
So why are you using it as part of your argument on gender?

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“Intersex is a general term used for a variety of situations in which a person is born with reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't fit the boxes of “female” or “male.”
That is one of several definitions. Here's another:

Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries).

Just because they are harder to identify as M or F from a cursory examination doesn't mean they're neither.

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If you don’t agree with the definition of sex meaning gamete type then why take me to task for my questioning of it?
Again, how about you slow down, actually read the posts you reply to, and form a rational response? I repeat: Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I agree with anyone else.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Gender is how they see themselves. Sex is how other people see them
See, again this is yet another definition of gender that doesn't match any historical use of the term. What you're describing here is "gender identity".
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:17 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again arguing the minutia of some "Well according to Dorland's Medical Encyclopedia" definition of edge cases seems like a point nobody is arguing.

I don't get what the Intersex discussion is supposed to prove in the Transgender discussion.

The vague "Well it proves gender isn't binary" is like saying the platypus proves that all mammal lay eggs.
What you need to understand is that the gender ideology comes first, and the science is then framed to justify the ideology.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:22 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
What you need to understand is that the gender ideology comes first, and the science is then framed to justify the ideology.
No I don't.

These are not Woosters. I disagree with how the interpretation is being presented, but I do not want to in anyway dismiss the reality of how difficult it is for non-traditional people to live in a world in which their personal views of themselves and the unfair categorizations society puts on them clash to this level.

I disagree with... a lot of the nuts and bolts. I stand behind that and I make no apologies for it. But they are not Figbooters or Truthers or whatnot.

They have valid distinctions they that are struggling to get across within a framework that makes it nearly impossible. I disagree with some of the paths they are taking, but I will not demonize them.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:30 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Gender is how they see themselves. Sex is how other people see them, especially after they take off their clothes.

The difference between what you said and what I said is really important for understanding the major transgender fights of the day. In the locker room, a biological male will be seen as male. People talk about how someone "presents". The thing is, once you take off your clothes, you're going to present as whatever is between your legs.


That's something that the trans rights activists just can't seem to wrap their head around.
There are multiple definitions and criteria for gender. Ultimately I do think that what gender one actually believes themselves to be is the most important criteria. If you think about it that is actually how we view ourselves and lead our lives day to day. Not our karyotype, which many of us donít even know. Not our androgen levels, ditto. And if a male was left by an accident without a penis I doubt we would deny him the right to still be considered a male.

But I started my discussion thus far here by talking about how the physical criteria routinely used to define gender, or the non scientific definition of sex as the sex of a new baby, are ambiguous and fluid themselves. That no one is pure male or pure female, and so not to get too uptight about any rigid definition.

I promised to get into knotter matters such as who uses which bathroom or plays on which team, but now I doubt that is worth it.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:39 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But they are not Figbooters or Truthers or whatnot.
Dude, I don't know. "Gender is whatever you feel it is" sounds pretty nutty to me.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:39 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"No you!" is not a very clever response, Giordano.



So why are you using it as part of your argument on gender?



That is one of several definitions. Here's another:

Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries).

Just because they are harder to identify as M or F from a cursory examination doesn't mean they're neither.



Again, how about you slow down, actually read the posts you reply to, and form a rational response? I repeat: Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I agree with anyone else.



See, again this is yet another definition of gender that doesn't match any historical use of the term. What you're describing here is "gender identity".
I’m even okay with your definition of intersex? What is your point?

If it is difficult to tell the difference then perhaps, just perhaps, the difference is less important than one might think. WHY MUST THEY BE ASSIGNED ONE OR THE OTHER? To use a public restroom? Even to have sex? What if their partner doesn’t care? What if the person with ambiguous genitals doesn’t care if they are viewed as a male or a female by the legislature of their state? Who has the right to insist they be one or the other?

Ironically your last point was responding to a different poster, not me.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:40 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
There are multiple definitions and criteria for gender. Ultimately I do think that what gender one actually believes themselves to be is the most important criteria. If you think about it that is actually how we view ourselves and lead our lives day to day. Not our karyotype, which many of us donít even know.
But that's not how definitions work. Language works by consensus, so going by criteria that everyone can observe usually works better, especially since there are real-life consequences to such categories. Do you not agree?
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:43 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
If it is difficult to tell the difference then perhaps, just perhaps, the difference is less important than one might think.
That doesn't follow.

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WHY MUST THEY BE ASSIGNED ONE OR THE OTHER? To use a public restroom?
Because public restrooms are segregated by sex! If you are arguing in favour of unisex restrooms, then sure, it's not important.

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Even to have sex? What if their partner doesn’t care?
What if they do care?

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Who has the right to insist they be one or the other?
It has nothing to do with rights. Why do I have to deal now with a version of you that seems to be confused by the basic realities of human existence?

The whole discussion stems from trans-women competing in women's sports. If you are arguing that sex categorisation shouldn't be a thing, then there shouldn't be women's sports at all, should there? Great, now 50% of the athlete population can't compete.

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Ironically your last point was responding to a different poster, not me.
Yeah I was responding to another poster. I even put his name there. What's ironic about it?
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:44 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
If it is difficult to tell the difference then perhaps, just perhaps, the difference is less important than one might think. WHY MUST THEY BE ASSIGNED ONE OR THE OTHER? To use a public restroom? Even to have sex? What if their partner doesn’t care? What if the person with ambiguous genitals doesn’t care if they are viewed as a male or a female by the legislature of their state? Who has the right to insist they be one or the other?.
We've covered this. Because we have to keep straight cis-men quarantined.

Less flippantly because for 99% of the population their sexual identity is simple, consistent, and not causing them all these internal quandaries of definitions and categorization so saying "I'm a guy" or "I'm a woman" is just a useful way to get across basic useful information that most other people find useful.

And it's way easier and shorter to say "I'm a man" than it is to say "I'm a biological male who identifies as a man, presents as a man, lives my life as a man, my pronouns are him/he, I have a penis and XY chromosome" and for 99% of people that's the same thing.

You're worshipping at the Idol of the Rare Exception way too much.
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Old 24th June 2020, 12:46 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I have yet to see a reasonable response for my argument that if sex identity depends solely on producing sperm or ova, then what are young children, sterile adults, castrated males, or post menapausal women?
I don't think this is quite as tricky as all that.

Female humans are born with around one million oocytes, males are born with zero. If you were born with a clutch of ova, you're female as far as gametes are concerned.

As to castratiWP, we can be pretty sure they never had any oocytes.

As to sterile adults, well, it depends on why.

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Old 24th June 2020, 12:53 PM   #334
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Sterility seems like another red herring to me.

If you take all the gas out of my Dodge Dart and out of a McLaren F1 and try to argue that means the McLaren is no longer faster you're... technically correct at best.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:17 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
No, they are not one or the other for the many reasons I stated.
A small penis is still a penis, is it not? A large clitoris is still a clitoris?
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:23 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
There are multiple definitions and criteria for gender. Ultimately I do think that what gender one actually believes themselves to be is the most important criteria. If you think about it that is actually how we view ourselves and lead our lives day to day. Not our karyotype, which many of us donít even know. Not our androgen levels, ditto. And if a male was left by an accident without a penis I doubt we would deny him the right to still be considered a male.

But I started my discussion thus far here by talking about how the physical criteria routinely used to define gender, or the non scientific definition of sex as the sex of a new baby, are ambiguous and fluid themselves. That no one is pure male or pure female, and so not to get too uptight about any rigid definition.

I promised to get into knotter matters such as who uses which bathroom or plays on which team, but now I doubt that is worth it.
Whoosh!

Or, maybe you are just on a different track.

Either way, the point is that the way you see yourself is not the way other people see you, regardless of how many definitions words have.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:24 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I am going back to discussing gender, not sex, because sex is a narrow, distracting, and irrelevant aspect to what is really under discussion.
Most of the disagreements on this topic (at least in this crowd) are central to that distinction between sex and gender. There are a lot of things in society that are sex segregated, even though they use the term "women". Because up until recently, women was the polite and considerate term for an adult human female. In fact, up until fairly recently, calling a woman "a female" was considered a bit offensive and demeaning as it essentially reduced a person to livestock. The terminology is in flux, which creates confusion.

At the end of the day, "women's sports" aren't defined based on a person's self-perceived gender; they're defined based on sex. "Women's health issues" aren't based on one's personal identity; they're based on sex. And the distinction between men's prisons and women's prisons really is based on whether or not a person has a penis or a vagina.

So when it comes to transgender activism, it overlaps the concept of sex. If transwomen want to compete in women's sports, then the topic of sex necessarily has to come up. If transwomen want to be housed in women's prisons, then the topic of sex has to come up. If transrgirls want to use girl's locker rooms in high school, then the topic of penises and vaginas is pretty relevant.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:28 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
A small penis is still a penis, is it not? A large clitoris is still a clitoris?
Given that they ultimately derive from the same organ, and since there are more than enough intersex variations of genitals, you can't maintain that kind of dichotomy.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:33 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I'm going to assume your default setting is 'rapist.'"
"Can you... like not do that?"
"*Gasps* Well that is rather derisive, don't you think?"
I have no idea what you think this means, or how it relates to me saying that your condescending mealy-mouthed "scawed widdle women" quip was a bit insulting.

To be honest, I'm not fully convinced that you know what you mean.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:34 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A person who has a penis and an XY chromosome who "identifies" as a woman is a completely different discussion than actual legit intersexual medical conditions like being brought up.

There's a difference between simply "a short person" and a person who is short because they actually have a dwarfism type medical condition but neither of them are a 6 foot 4 person who "identifies as short."
That's a great analogy
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:36 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I have no idea what you think this means, or how it relates to me saying that your condescending mealy-mouthed "scawed widdle women" quip was a bit insulting.

To be honest, I'm not fully convinced that you know what you mean.
I think I've made my point clear enough, but this continued hijack serves no purpose.

I am uncomfortable with how easily straight cis-men are seen as inherently predatory, nothing more, nothing less

We'll just have to leave it at that.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:36 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Then can you rephrase the following to make it inclusive of infertile people?

Remember, the goal here is to define "male" and "female" in a way that is unequivocal, clear, and which includes every human being on the planet.
This is silly.

Can you define "human" in a way that is unequivocal, clear, and includes every human being on the planet?
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:38 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Can you define "human" in a way that is unequivocal, clear, and includes every human being on the planet?
Not without pissing off all the pro-lifers.

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Old 24th June 2020, 01:38 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
What about a person who was 6'4" but got into an accident and lost both legs and is now 3'8"? Are they allowed to consider themselves short? Use the reserved-for-the-short-people booster seat at the restaurant? Or is that "unearned privilege" and "invading short spaces"? Does their very existence serve as an insult to the precious feelings of the "natally short"?
I genuinely can't tell what you're poking fun at with this. Are you poking fun at disabled people? People with dwarfism and similar disorders? Females?
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:44 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think this is quite as tricky as all that.

Female humans are born with around one million oocytes, males are born with zero. If you were born with a clutch of ova, you're female as far as gametes are concerned.

As to castratiWP, we can be pretty sure they never had any oocytes.

As to sterile adults, well, it depends on why.

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Oh stop. I refuse to repeat myself endlessly. Are XYs without sperm females by the definitions given upthread? Are XXs without ova males? Do you agree or disagree with having sperm or ova being the sole criterion to define sex? My argument is that it is not.

But of course saying that the “gametes” one produces at birth defines their sex for evermore is simply saying one’s sex is determined at birth and by this one criterion. BTW male and female babies do not produce functional gametes. And it ignores the actual complexity and reality of the ambiguity of sex identity (not everyone produces gametes even at birth for example,have they no sex) and the reality of how people identify by the more important term, gender.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:44 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's a thing by the way, transabled people who like perfectly normal working legs but use wheelchairs because their "body image" is that of a disabled person. I'd love to know why that's different.
I don't have words for this. I had to go look it up, and sure as poop, it's a real thing. I'm having a really hard time perceiving that as anything other than nuts.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:48 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Given that they ultimately derive from the same organ, and since there are more than enough intersex variations of genitals, you can't maintain that kind of dichotomy.
Exactly! I suspect a lot of posters donít understand this. They are derived from the same embryonic organ and when they differentiate one way or another it often is to somewhat different extents. Sometimes the process is significantly different from what the karyotype might suggest.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:49 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
And if my uncle was my aunt... Oh, strangely appropriate here

Probably in terms of physically observable intersex, but the people who identify as gender non binary do so ultimately for biological reasons. How they think of themselves is wired into the synapses and action potentials of their brains. Possibly due in part by hormones, or by genetics we donít yet fully understand, or by experiences. But our thoughts and views all have a basis in terms of how our brain physically functions. So if the definition of intersex relates to physical properties beyond gametes, then gender non binary probably itself is a form of intersex - intersex related to brain properties.
So... women and men have materially and meaningfully different brains by nature? Is that your hill?
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:52 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Genuine question : can you give a definition of 'man' or 'woman' from a gender point of view which isn't circular (e.g. 'someone who identifies as') and carries external utility? For example, in the 'man gives birth' thread a while back, the definition of 'man' was so open ended it was utterly useless.

The contrast I've used in the past is hetero- vs homosexual. I'm hetero, so I'm sexually attracted to women. If I were homosexual I'd have the same feelings, but toward men. Apply that to the gender issue. "I identify as a woman, therefore <x>, and if I identified as a man I would <y> instead.". None of the answers I've seen are anything which would have an external impact, and were only internal feelings or the like. Which is fine, but doesn't mean the world now treats you differently.
I'd be a lot more sanguine if someone could explain to me what a male-bodied person who has the lived experience of a man actually means when they say they "feel like a woman", and how the f--- they know what the hell a woman "feels like" in the first place.

Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
It's totally cool if an intact biological male wants to wear dresses, but that doesn't mean they're now allowed on the women's track team because they 'feel like a woman'. And it doesn't make a lesbian a bigot if she's not into going down on your ladypenis.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:56 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We could say this about anything with the same passive voice of disdain.

"Oh so you're saying only people who predominantly use their right hands for task are real right handed people!?"

YES! Words mean things. Definitions are not sinister concepts.
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Old 24th June 2020, 01:58 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
What if this can be extended in the future so that trans-women can produce ova do to an ovary transplant?

https://www.infertile.com/woman-give...ant-operation/

Obviously tricky: the hormones would need to be carefully balanced and to give birth they would also need a uterus, etc, transplant. But wouldnít that completely resolve the issue of if their ďsexĒ was now female even by the gamete test?
If we figure out how to transplant a beak and wings onto my cat, does she become a duck?
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:17 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So... women and men have materially and meaningfully different brains by nature? Is that your hill?
I am proposing that what we think is based on the physical set up and chemistry of our brains. And that the specific thoughts people have when thinking of themselves as one gender or the other are based on these physical and chemical processes. What other possibly is there, a consciousness based on an incorporeal ďmind?Ē

Obviously if I believe a cis male can think of themselves as female I am not proposing that males and females are born with different brains.
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:21 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
If we figure out how to transplant a beak and wings onto my cat, does she become a duck?
I was replying to the criteria of sex identity cited by the posters upthread. Sperm and ova production being prominent.

If your cat starts to tell you they believe they are a duck please get back to me.
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:33 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Given that they ultimately derive from the same organ, and since there are more than enough intersex variations of genitals, you can't maintain that kind of dichotomy.
Sure we can, just like we can maintain the dichotomy between graphite and diamond even though it's made from the same stuff.
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:38 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'd be a lot more sanguine if someone could explain to me what a male-bodied person who has the lived experience of a man actually means when they say they "feel like a woman", and how the f--- they know what the hell a woman "feels like" in the first place.
I've often wondered about this myself. The best answer I've heard so far is basically a list of symptoms, but then again most cis women and cis men don't have any of these.
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:43 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. You're a biological man that identifies as a woman. What changes? I'm still not letting this go.
I'll give you two answers... neither of which is intended to be viewed as "right".

The first is my opinion: Nothing really changes. At best, if you're a nice person and you care about how the other person feels, you change what pronoun you use about them, and you use whatever name they wish to go by, and you don't mention the 5 o'clock shadow. For anything other than basic personal interactions... use judgement on a case by case basis. But pretty much just be a decent human being.

The second is what I think that transwomen want... which may be a bit biased by my own frustration: Change the entirety of how you view them, how you think about them, and how you interact with them. Start treating them the way you treat "women". So... ? Open doors for them? Tell them to make you a sammich? Take away their shoes and leave them stranded in the kitchen? Pay them less for doing the same job? Force gynecologists to see them even though they don't have a vagina? Pretend they don't have prostates and never suggest they should get that things checked? Let them compete in sports against female-bodied people and pretend there are no obvious physical differences? Wolf whistle and cat call when they walk down the street?
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:52 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm still fascinated by the possibility of mixed sex chimeras, a subject which has apparently received very little scientific attention. They would not necessarily present as intersex, but the condition might be relevant to transgenderism. One might have, for example, a genetically female brain in a genetically male body. That would look like a simple biological male.

If a transgender person discovered that they had such a condition, the information might prove useful to them. It could help them and their family come to terms with their dysphoria as having a biological basis rather than a sort of mental illness, and it would also push back against religious fundamentalist objections to transgenderism. But it's not going to make the activist base happy, because it cuts against the self-identification dogma. So it's a sort of weird possibility that people on multiple sides don't really want to look at too closely.
What exactly is a "female brain"? Let's start with that bit. Because my poor widdle woman brain just can't keep up...
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:53 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No I don't.

These are not Woosters. I disagree with how the interpretation is being presented, but I do not want to in anyway dismiss the reality of how difficult it is for non-traditional people to live in a world in which their personal views of themselves and the unfair categorizations society puts on them clash to this level.

I disagree with... a lot of the nuts and bolts. I stand behind that and I make no apologies for it. But they are not Figbooters or Truthers or whatnot.

They have valid distinctions they that are struggling to get across within a framework that makes it nearly impossible. I disagree with some of the paths they are taking, but I will not demonize them.
Well said.
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:56 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What exactly is a "female brain"? Let's start with that bit. Because my poor widdle woman brain just can't keep up...
Sticking with the normal situation of XX vs XY chromosomes (ie, no chromosomal anomalies, no defective or misplaced genes), a chimeric person could have brain cells with XX but the rest of the body being XY. I am describing that as a female brain in a male body.
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Old 24th June 2020, 02:57 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We've covered this. Because we have to keep straight cis-men quarantined.
Now you're talking! Cis-het sex slaves ftw!

Honestly, though, I don't think anyone wants to keep straight cis-men quarantined. At least nobody in this thread. Please don't mistake my bits of rant as being somehow anti-men. I'm a feminist who happens to love dudes, and who also thinks there's a lot in my society that is patently unfair to men as well.
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