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Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges , Portland incidents , Portland issues , protest incidents , protest issues

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Old 21st July 2020, 10:11 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Now, the deputy director has admitted to an unlawful arrest

https://mobile.twitter.com/AndrewMCr...38001004482561
Wow, that is an excellent source, they directly describe the directions that they have received directly from US William Barr's office on this.

They also cite their legal justification for the abduction incident with the van. As described by FPS Deputy of Operations Richard Cline.

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I AGREE


Originally Posted by Federal Protective Service Deputy Director of Operations Richard Cline
So, uh, USA 40 15 13 does allow us to investigate crimes both on and off the property based on a crime occurring, or alleged crime occurring on Federal property. So in this instance, you are probably talking about the van. So the CBP, the Border Patrol officers, have been in cross desde [? Can't hear the word] with our authority. The individual that they were questioning was in a crowd and in an area where an individual was aiming a laser at the eyes of officers. People in the area that observed and kept track of him where he's going. We don't want to go into the crowd because then it's a fight between our guys and the demonstrators.

So we wait until the individual gets into a somewhat quiet area, where we don't expect to have violence when we want to talk to him. In this instance the CBP officers approached him, and he saw the approach, it was peaceful, there was no tackle, there was no get on the ground, they went to talk with him. But as they approached him, they noticed that coming in their direction were violent demonstrators that now see what's going on and they want to help, so they asked the individual, please get in the van, and they did take him to an area that was safe for both the officers and the individual to do the questioning.

So it's not a custodial arrest, we need to question this individual to find out what their role was in this laser pointing and unfortunately it got kind of spun out of control with what happened. It was a simple engagement. The individual was with the CBP officers for less than 20 minutes while they did the questioning. They had to get out of the area so weren't attacked and then they conducted the questioning and they released the individual because they did not have what they needed. The US attorney's office has consulted on every engagement that our officers are doing. The Attorney's office is also at our roll call every evening to make sure that our officers and agents are aware of the use of force, the rules of engagement, authority jurisdiction. They spent a lot of time on that, so that's how that came about
edit: note that while Cline cites 40 U.S. Code § 1513, it is actually 40 U.S. Code § 1315

40 U.S. Code § 1315.Law enforcement authority of Secretary of Homeland Security for protection of public property

Quote:
(2)Powers.—While engaged in the performance of official duties, an officer or agent designated under this subsection may—
(A)enforce Federal laws and regulations for the protection of persons and property;
(B)carry firearms;
(C)make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent or for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States if the officer or agent has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony;
(D)serve warrants and subpoenas issued under the authority of the United States;
(E)conduct investigations, on and off the property in question, of offenses that may have been committed against property owned or occupied by the Federal Government or persons on the property; and
(F)carry out such other activities for the promotion of homeland security as the Secretary may prescribe.

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Old 21st July 2020, 11:29 PM   #242
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As a follow up, to the video, Cline also noted that there are three officers who have eye injuries because of the laser attacks, and they may not recover sight in those eyes. Having three officers facing potential partial blindness was likely a primary reason to question the suspect in the van abduction incident. He also noted that the more violent protesters have begun talking about attacking the water supplies for the Federal Courthouse building. That is not even mentioning the comments I have seen of people wanting to kidnap or kill officers in retaliation for the van abduction incident.

One of the clear problems is that you have people attacking officers without a good way for the agents protecting the building to make arrests in a safe way without the more violent protesters becoming more violent. To be clear, I am sure that the FPS and CBP officers would be more than happy to stay in the courthouse if they were not being attacked every night.

The Navy veteran being attacked and having his hand broken for asking the officers a question was pretty horrific. However, from the news, I had the impression that officers were roaming around neighborhoods looking for people dressed in black to abduct and question. Now that I know more information on the background, I think it is pretty irresponsible for the news and the Mayor to be goading on the violence for click bait and likes.


It's Mayor Wheeler's city that is being destroyed, and he bears a lot of responsibility for all of the boarded up businesses. With 52 nights of straight violent protests, you can be pretty sure that there will be violence at the Courthouse on night 53, or 60, or 75, and maybe even 100. It is incredibly likely that there will be at least a few deaths in the time with the escalating violence, and the Mayor is almost entirely responsible for allowing the violence to continue. He could absolutely support and encourage peaceful protests while stopping the violent ones.

If the Mayor wanted, he could stop the violence at the Courthouse both to and from the CBP officers by setting up a setback zone, and declaring areas a riot as soon as they become violent.

If the protesters wanted their message to not be hijacked and stay peaceful, they could set up their own setback zone.

I definitely agree with holding the CBP accountable, but Wheeler needs some accountability too. Wheeler and the Governor are making a conscious choice to allow the violence to continue, and they are just as responsible if not more than the CBP officer who broke the Navy veteran, Christopher David's hand.
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Old 21st July 2020, 11:48 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What is happening in my city at night now is disgusting. These are not the peaceful protesters we see during the day. They are a destructive mob who are burning and looting. This mob is not about police brutality or George Floyd. Mayor Wheeler, who completely supports the BLM peaceful protests, is as disgusted with these criminals as much as I am. They are doing BLM great harm. They are only giving Trump justification for sending in federal troops.
How much of the violence do you think is a result of Wheeler's actions? Does anyone think a semi passive statement of disapproval from him a few weeks ago against the violence would do anything to stop it?
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Old 22nd July 2020, 12:51 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yea, but mostly just for minorities.
Yeah it's amazing, isn't it. This (people being snatched into unmarked vans by unidentified people) has been happening for years to migrants. But now that it also starts happening to the rest suddenly everyone goes nuts about it.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 02:32 AM   #245
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https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/07/2...as-from-parks/

Some should have warned Himmler about the talent Portlanders have for mockery. His Gestapo had just better hope they don't break out the Unipiper.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 02:33 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I see you still don't get it, so I will speak to you slowly and loudly.

You do not see USA as already being police state because you have correct skin color, thus not witnessing things that does fit description of what is generally understood by concept of police state.
What you describe as "getting steadily closer" is simply already existing police state being less selective in picking it's victims, like, I dunno, topic of this thread - recent kidnappings in Portland.

Do you now get it?


Rather, I do get it. Seemingly more than you, if you're going in that direction. I'm not denying that serious discrimination exists, but rather pointing out that you're conflating what constitutes a "police state" with the unpleasant truth that the police, effectively as an institution, are implicitly about control of the less wealthy and powerful and not always with particularly savory methods. What you're directly pushing is historical revisionism that thoroughly misleads on a number of points and effectively treats "police state" as a cover-all description for numerous types and forms of oppression that just don't fit it.

Has the US always been a police state like you claimed? The US existed well before there was anything that could reasonably be even called the police, so that seems more than a little farcical! So, quick and dirty skim through history time as it relates to the color of skin that you seem to be referring to.

Independence to Civil War? Yes, there was slavery. Legal slavery is really, really not the same as having a police state. Slave recapturing forces increased in numbers and can be considered some of the precursors to the police, but that's still nowhere close to having a police state. Horrible oppression to that minority in some parts of the country? Of course.

After the Civil War? Slavery was officially banned, though the loophole to use criminals as effective slaves was left and Reconstruction was thoroughly sabotaged, so there was a fair amount of criminalization of black people to try to substitute for the loss of official slave labor. "Crime" rates of black people were high, which led to more wariness towards black people at the same time as quite a lot of them took the opportunity to try to get to safer grounds. More modernish police started to exist and become more prevalent, as well as far too often acting in a rather racist manner. Numerous other forms of less obvious, but quite nasty, discrimination spread, as well. In the states that had depended on their slave economies especially, there were plenty of extrajudicial methods used to suppress the newfound political access to government that people of color had. None of this made the south, let alone the US as a whole, a police state, though that does not diminish in any way the oppression that happened. To poke at a big example of oppression, though... the Tulsa Race Massacre. That was not a government action (despite a number of policemen apparently joining the bloodthirsty mob), but it was very much a massive act of oppression. Trying to say that the US was always a police state directly interferes with any decent understanding about what was going on with the Tulsa Massacre, though.

Skip ahead a bit to the Civil Right Movement. Plenty of conflict there, of course, very much including police acting very badly, but the Civil Rights activists did succeed and reform did happen and there have been notable trends of life getting better for people of color that have continued fairly steadily since then, though with significant resistance, of course. Still no police state, though fairly modern police are by then quite prevalent. Still lots of oppression in a lot of ways.

Skip ahead to recent times and the story really doesn't change too much as the trends towards equality continue, even with setbacks like the "War on Drugs." With that said, though, the things that I was referring to when I spoke of steadily getting closer is more along the lines of, for example, how electronic surveillance and tracking is overwhelming more common in the present day, which, alone, puts us in far too easy striking distance of turning into a police state should a political police force truly be unleashed upon the US. That, combined with the way that the Trump Administration especially, though it didn't remotely start with them, has been busily working to destroy the softer, more unwritten cultural defenses that were in place to guard us against such a political police force being even able to form without causing a backlash that would fairly directly destroy a party. What's happening in Portland can effectively be treated as a benign testing of the waters in comparison to what would fairly certainly happen if the US truly did become a police state, though, like what happened in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and North Korea.

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
I'm not even sure if it's a race issue. That's what I'm struggling with understanding with the current demonstrations on police officers' abuse of power. Don't people see it's something that hurts everyone? That it extends from black people being choked to death, to teenagers thrown into boot camps and for-profit prisons for the most minor of offenses, the widespread problem of sexual assault in prisons, people trying to enter the States being detained and/or yelled at for hours and hours because they made some tiny mistake when filling out their forms or whatever, ludicrous sentences for minor crimes, and still I could go on and on.

I get part of this is a cultural thing, around the mentality that you have to be "tough on crime", rather than a mentality around prevention and rehabilitation and actually, you know, understanding why crime happens in the first place, but I just don't get the people dismissing the protests with pretending racism doesn't exist in the police force. It's not even that it's so crystal clear it does, but also that racism is only one of the countless problems with the US police force.

"Police state" is one of those buzzwords it's really hard to nail down the actual definition of, so I won't get into that, but the fact remains the US police force has been in dire need of reform for ages, and that hurts everyone, not just black people and immigrants from the south.
Pretty much. It's well worth acknowledging that the current state of things disproportionately hurts certain groups, though, and that it is easy to lose sight of the larger picture, especially by those most affected. Not that the larger picture is particularly pretty, but pretty much all of us like to simplify things for easier comprehension and those harmed most have much more powerful motivation to focus on the parts most immediately relevant to their experience, rather than the larger picture.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yeah it's amazing, isn't it. This (people being snatched into unmarked vans by unidentified people) has been happening for years to migrants. But now that it also starts happening to the rest suddenly everyone goes nuts about it.
There are a couple important differences between cracking down on people who are directly exercising their First Amendment rights in an already in the spotlight area and pointedly without valid cause and cracking down on people of color or migrants who were just, say, walking home and at a not at all in the spotlight area. Still, you do have a point that both are problematic, if I'm understanding you correctly.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 04:42 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by HoverBoarder View Post
Wow, that is an excellent source, they directly describe the directions that they have received directly from US William Barr's office on this.

They also cite their legal justification for the abduction incident with the van. As described by FPS Deputy of Operations Richard Cline.

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edit: note that while Cline cites 40 U.S. Code § 1513, it is actually 40 U.S. Code § 1315

40 U.S. Code § 1315.Law enforcement authority of Secretary of Homeland Security for protection of public property
The problem with the statement is court cases trump that law affirming that they cannot detain and take someone somewhere for questioning. Whatever reason they have, it still constitutes an arrest which means needs probable cause.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 05:21 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Rather, I do get it. Seemingly more than you, if you're going in that direction. I'm not denying that serious discrimination exists, but rather pointing out that you're conflating what constitutes a "police state" with the unpleasant truth that the police, effectively as an institution, are implicitly about control of the less wealthy and powerful and not always with particularly savory methods.
As far I am concerned, "police, effectively as an institution, are implicitly about control of the less wealthy and powerful and not always with particularly savory methods" fits pretty well, if "unsavory methods" are routine.
Basically, police is apparatus of oppression. General difference between police in normal country and in police state is how this oppression is directed. Hopefully against criminals - and even then keep in mind that even criminals have rights.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
What you're directly pushing is historical revisionism that thoroughly misleads on a number of points and effectively treats "police state" as a cover-all description for numerous types and forms of oppression that just don't fit it.
You seem to be rather upset with idea that USA is not (and never was) paragon of freedom, liberty, democracy and other good-sounding nouns.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Has the US always been a police state like you claimed?
"Always has been." is meme, actually. I won't be dying on that hill, it is enough for me that lately (defined as in modern times, but especially in last decade or two) USA police behaves (and gets away with this behavior) like police in police state. Pretty much only difference is that they usually pick their victims carefully so no one else cares about it.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
The US existed well before there was anything that could reasonably be even called the police,
I don't think something without law enforcement can be even called country.

Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
(...)What's happening in Portland can effectively be treated as a benign testing of the waters in comparison to what would fairly certainly happen if the US truly did become a police state, though, like what happened in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and North Korea.
You do not have to be Nazi Germany/Soviet Union/North Korea to be called police state.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 05:27 AM   #249
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Anecdotally, it seems to me the heavy handed police response in Portland is pretty much solely keeping the BLM protest movement active.

At least near me in Boston, there had been a real dropoff in protest activity since the beginning of July. The last protest I went to was in the last weekend of June, and it was noticeably smaller than previous events. Then nothing for several weeks.

Now there's things on the calendar again, including this Sunday. I have no idea if it's going to be a big thing or not, but I'll be there. If there's a resurrection in protesting here, it is 100% because of the federal police brutality coming out of Portland that's getting people energized.

I have very little doubt that this whole movement would likely have lost its steam, as it has in most every other city, had the Portland police, and now the feds, stopped using such openly jackbooted tactics.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 07:17 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Anecdotally, it seems to me the heavy handed police response in Portland is pretty much solely keeping the BLM protest movement active.

At least near me in Boston, there had been a real dropoff in protest activity since the beginning of July. The last protest I went to was in the last weekend of June, and it was noticeably smaller than previous events. Then nothing for several weeks.

Now there's things on the calendar again, including this Sunday. I have no idea if it's going to be a big thing or not, but I'll be there. If there's a resurrection in protesting here, it is 100% because of the federal police brutality coming out of Portland that's getting people energized.

I have very little doubt that this whole movement would likely have lost its steam, as it has in most every other city, had the Portland police, and now the feds, stopped using such openly jackbooted tactics.
I'm disappointed they haven't been pelted with dildos yet. Can't you just see it? The Unipiper leading while the Portland Tuba Association plays the charge and hundreds of Portlanders hurl dildos and bags of gummy dicks at the Gestapo?
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Old 22nd July 2020, 07:25 AM   #251
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The Philadelphia DA has said that he will prosecute any DHS agents unlawfully assaulting or kidnapping anybody
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Old 22nd July 2020, 08:38 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Defendant Summons: unidentified anonymous Officer John Does 1 through 348 in unmarked minivans, we want a word with you.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 08:59 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Defendant Summons: unidentified anonymous Officer John Does 1 through 348 in unmarked minivans, we want a word with you.
Not so anonymous. The minivan has a licenses plate. It was rented by someone. It was probably rented with several authorized drivers. Someone gave the minivan's details to a hotel clerk and probably the valet. Both the rental car company and the hotel got phone numbers and ID. The best part is, they all have to file travel vouchers with receipts. Narrowing down who did it shouldn't be too hard.

Everyone always leaves a trail.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 10:30 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Not so anonymous. The minivan has a licenses plate. It was rented by someone. It was probably rented with several authorized drivers. Someone gave the minivan's details to a hotel clerk and probably the valet. Both the rental car company and the hotel got phone numbers and ID. The best part is, they all have to file travel vouchers with receipts. Narrowing down who did it shouldn't be too hard.

Everyone always leaves a trail.
Assuming they were rented (not even sure about that), DOJ or an agency was likely the responsible party. Say they claimed one driver listed (no reason to assume more). The DA charges him as an accessory, and he was not the actual driver at the time. Maybe claims not to have even been there at the time of the alleged offence. No one recalls the driver or occupants. What could happen? Hertz fines the Feds for improper driver reporting? I have a feeling the executive branch could litigate their way around all that.

As I see it, police arrest the federal agents in the act or they have no teeth. Paper trails are real, but so is shucking and jiving and hustling a shell game. And the Feds are well-heeled enough to play that game.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 12:40 PM   #255
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Trump ad shows anti police violence... except that the photo is from the Ukraine revolution which resulted in Yanukovitch (the guy who was paying Manfort $60M to promote him to the west) being run off to Moscow in the middle of the night. I don’t think it’s an accident that they used a photo from there, the tactics Here in Portland are exactly like those in Maidan Square. Hopefully the rubber bullets won’t turn into real ones, but I suspect they will.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53500610
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Old 22nd July 2020, 02:26 PM   #256
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Old 22nd July 2020, 04:07 PM   #257
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Didn't see a need for a new thread. Apparently Trump thinks he can send in fed police to Chicago and end the gun violence.

While this is mostly about letting the squirrels out to distract people from his dismal response to the pandemic, I suspect this is another one of his fantasies. He believes he can fix any problem out there, and his go to answer is always something along the lines of cracking down with heavy handed police.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 04:33 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Didn't see a need for a new thread. Apparently Trump thinks he can send in fed police to Chicago and end the gun violence.

While this is mostly about letting the squirrels out to distract people from his dismal response to the pandemic, I suspect this is another one of his fantasies. He believes he can fix any problem out there, and his go to answer is always something along the lines of cracking down with heavy handed police.
He saw it work for his bible photo op a few weeks ago so now there is no doubt in his poor excuse for a mind that it will always work.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 05:13 PM   #259
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Old 22nd July 2020, 05:24 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The problem with the statement is court cases trump that law affirming that they cannot detain and take someone somewhere for questioning. Whatever reason they have, it still constitutes an arrest which means needs probable cause.
There are definitely a lot of unanswered questions, and I think that the only reason they held the news conference the other day was because of the pending lawsuit against them.

According to them, the one abduction case that is widely circulated was based on their version of events that the suspect wanted for questioning was wanted for questioning in connection to attacks on Federal officers that sustained possible permanent injuries from the attack. They claimed that he was specifically monitored, and apprehended in a manner that was meant to reduce injury to themselves and the protesters.

To be clear, I am not saying that is what happened, but for an incident that was so heavily based on speculation, it at least provides a narrative from one side. Given how prominent the story is, I am actually surprised that it is not getting more attention.

The video evidence does show them approaching a specific individual while ignoring others around them, so it does cast doubt on the supect's/abductee's story that 'he was just picked up at random because he was wearing black and walking away from the protests."


However, protesters at least claim that the abductions are much more commonplace than that one incident.

Portland protesters accuse federal agents of lying after comments by Homeland Security

Quote:
DHS said it is respecting peaceful protesters and only arresting people who committed criminal acts.

Some demonstrators said they don't believe that.

"That’s not true at all. I witnessed somebody standing on the sidelines who was just observing the incident as a medic supporter. They’re targeting people on the outskirt fringes of the crowd who are separated with batons and gas and ganging up on them and throwing them in vehicles," Mali Minx said.
For me, the biggest revelation in the transcript I posted yesterday from the DHS conference was intense role of the Attorney General in directing their actions. I knew they were involved, but not to that degree. Given the amounts of clear abuse of force incidents, I would definitely want to know what type of direction they are providing on that. Is there any review for excessive force, is there a pathway to accountability? Is Barr giving them the OK to carry out their aggressive tactics?



Of course, I still think the blame for the majority of this violence lays with Mayor Wheeler who has intentionally set up and allowed the conditions for violence to be pretty much guaranteed.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 05:56 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Perfect analogy for your feds. No rational thinking, no planning, no logic. Just attack like a mindless swarm of bees.

You might want to re-think this one.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 10:40 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Assuming they were rented (not even sure about that), DOJ or an agency was likely the responsible party. Say they claimed one driver listed (no reason to assume more). The DA charges him as an accessory, and he was not the actual driver at the time. Maybe claims not to have even been there at the time of the alleged offence. No one recalls the driver or occupants. What could happen? Hertz fines the Feds for improper driver reporting? I have a feeling the executive branch could litigate their way around all that.

As I see it, police arrest the federal agents in the act or they have no teeth. Paper trails are real, but so is shucking and jiving and hustling a shell game. And the Feds are well-heeled enough to play that game.
Doesn't matter. They still leave a trail and someone always talks. It's how I closed all my cases. No one goes through life anywhere without leaving a trail and most people who know about your trail don't care a wit about you. If a DA really wants these people, they'll get them.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 10:52 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
You seem to be rather upset with idea that USA is not (and never was) paragon of freedom, liberty, democracy and other good-sounding nouns.
Mmm. Not sure where you got that from. Somewhere as shallow as your skin color remark and choice to go for a cheap shot with the "always has been?" My objection to the "US has always been a police state" is simply that it's 1) inaccurate, 2) misleading, and 3) very likely counterproductive to any efforts to actually fix the situation.

I delved into a bit of why it's inaccurate in that last post - even for the most affected, though I'm quite willing to allow that for the most affected specifically, there is much more cause to allow that police state can somewhat apply at some places and times in the US, just not all the time and not being particularly applicable to the country as a whole.

I touched a bit on the misleading part, as well, with, for example, the reference to the Tulsa Massacre. Invoking "police state" will pretty much inevitably lead to horrible confusion there about what's going on, like with virtually all the rest of the oppression. By invoking "police state," one turns the attention to a totalitarian government as pretty much a primary cause and mover. In Tulsa, like with most of the oppression in general, it wasn't government that caused the problem (or perpetrated it), it was a whole lot of white supremacists and those who allied themselves with them for various reasons. Important parts of the local government were white supremacists themselves and quite complicit in the death and destruction, yes, but such is much more a symptom than the problem itself. I'll hold off on delving too much further into that, though, much as there's a lot more that can be said.

As for counterproductive... keep pushing it as generally and in such an unqualified way as you did and, well, that seriously erodes how meaningfully bad a police state actually is, given that the US hasn't even remotely been a police state for the majority of the population for pretty much any of the US' history. "You say we were living in a police state? Police states must not be so bad, then" is not a good takeaway to leave wide open.


Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I don't think something without law enforcement can be even called country.
Law enforcement is not actually the same thing as "police," let alone police in the modern sense. Literally, the first publicly funded, organized police force with officers on duty full-time was created in Boston in 1838, at least in the US. Times change, after all, hard is it might be to imagine that the current state of things isn't actually how things have been since antiquity.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 11:06 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Anecdotally, it seems to me the heavy handed police response in Portland is pretty much solely keeping the BLM protest movement active.

At least near me in Boston, there had been a real dropoff in protest activity since the beginning of July. The last protest I went to was in the last weekend of June, and it was noticeably smaller than previous events. Then nothing for several weeks.

Now there's things on the calendar again, including this Sunday. I have no idea if it's going to be a big thing or not, but I'll be there. If there's a resurrection in protesting here, it is 100% because of the federal police brutality coming out of Portland that's getting people energized.

I have very little doubt that this whole movement would likely have lost its steam, as it has in most every other city, had the Portland police, and now the feds, stopped using such openly jackbooted tactics.
There's been more than a few that think that antagonizing the protestors is exactly the point - in an effort to help Trump get re-elected. Much like that scary "caravan" headed to the US, the point is to have something to scare the fine folk of America into voting for the Republicans to protect them from the hyped up nothingburger, while the MSM generally amplifies their message. Meanwhile, in violent wartorn Portland, life goes on pretty peacefully and largely undisturbed. There's a reason that "graffiti" is pretty much all the justification that they could come up with as an excuse to actually barge into Portland and stay there.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:00 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Bees? Isn't that a wasps nest?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 02:10 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Bees? Isn't that a wasps nest?
Yes.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:27 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Bees? Isn't that a wasps nest?
Yep, seven years of Black Lives Matter and they're still represented by a bunch of WASPS.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:33 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Yep, seven years of Black Lives Matter and they're still represented by a bunch of WASPS.
Nominated
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:54 AM   #269
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Feds tear gassed the mayor of Portland last night.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...land-tear-gas/
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Old 23rd July 2020, 06:01 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yeah it's amazing, isn't it. This (people being snatched into unmarked vans by unidentified people) has been happening for years to migrants. But now that it also starts happening to the rest suddenly everyone goes nuts about it.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:42 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Anecdotally, it seems to me the heavy handed police response in Portland is pretty much solely keeping the BLM protest movement active.

At least near me in Boston, there had been a real dropoff in protest activity since the beginning of July. The last protest I went to was in the last weekend of June, and it was noticeably smaller than previous events. Then nothing for several weeks.

Now there's things on the calendar again, including this Sunday. I have no idea if it's going to be a big thing or not, but I'll be there. If there's a resurrection in protesting here, it is 100% because of the federal police brutality coming out of Portland that's getting people energized.

I have very little doubt that this whole movement would likely have lost its steam, as it has in most every other city, had the Portland police, and now the feds, stopped using such openly jackbooted tactics.
It seems that more police brutality (this time from Federal cops) doesn't actually work to stop people from protesting police brutality. Who'da thunk it?

Well, anybody but Trump, probably.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:48 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
It seems that more police brutality (this time from Federal cops) doesn't actually work to stop people from protesting police brutality. Who'da thunk it?

Well, anybody but Trump, probably.
Sadly it gives him what he wants, real violent unrest on the streets and he can claim to be doing something about it - whilst actually inflaming the situation. This will play very well with Republicans and Republican-leaning independents.

As long as the violence isn't in their neighbourhood, they can be happily shocked and appalled by the whole thing and get a hard-on from seeing cops beating up people not like them.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:52 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
It seems that more police brutality (this time from Federal cops) doesn't actually work to stop people from protesting police brutality. Who'da thunk it?

Well, anybody but Trump, probably.
The beatings will continue until morale improves!
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Old 23rd July 2020, 09:17 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Assuming they were rented (not even sure about that), DOJ or an agency was likely the responsible party.
As someone who has rented a vehicle on behalf of the Feds for official business, it was rented in my name under my GSA issued credit card with my name on it.

If it were rented, there is a name attached to it.

As far as I know, there is no credit card just issued to an agency. That would be an accounting nightmare. The way it works is you get an authorization to spend the money, you then spend the money, provide the receipts and the government either cuts the check or makes a direct payment.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 09:38 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
As someone who has rented a vehicle on behalf of the Feds for official business, it was rented in my name under my GSA issued credit card with my name on it.

If it were rented, there is a name attached to it.

As far as I know, there is no credit card just issued to an agency. That would be an accounting nightmare. The way it works is you get an authorization to spend the money, you then spend the money, provide the receipts and the government either cuts the check or makes a direct payment.
Right, but the renter's name need not be the operator or occupants' name. I have driven and been a passenger in rented vehicles without being IDed.

So the DA theoretically has a name on a credit card from some party who rented on behalf of the Executive Branch. Should be pretty simple to show no criminal liability on the renter's part. If the listed driver does not look like the driver in a vid of one of these street grabs, who does the DA go after, and for what?

eta: that's why this lack of badge number and name thing is such a problem. You have no warm body to blame with out of town/state agents that no one recognizes of unclear affiliation. You see a camo badge from the Border Patrol in a pic? Great. What do you do with that?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:06 AM   #276
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A naive question: What good has it done to send these Stahlhelm-wannabes into the streets?

I still can't spot any M4s in the pix on line, but they all seem to be packing pistols.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:11 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
A naive question: What good has it done to send these Stahlhelm-wannabes into the streets?

I still can't spot any M4s in the pix on line, but they all seem to be packing pistols.
Here's one:

https://gothamist.com/news/trump-thr...g-do-something

Here's a video showing more. Seems that feds with rifles are interspersed throughout, though most are carrying less-lethal weapons with holstered pistols.

https://www.insideedition.com/media/...protests-60843
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:22 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Here's one:

https://gothamist.com/news/trump-thr...g-do-something

Here's a video showing more. Seems that feds with rifles are interspersed throughout, though most are carrying less-lethal weapons with holstered pistols.

https://www.insideedition.com/media/...protests-60843
Yes, I guess I knew they couldn't restrain themselves.

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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:35 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
A naive question: What good has it done to send these Stahlhelm-wannabes into the streets?
Telling the voters you're getting tough on rampaging criminal mobs who are tearing apart Democrat-run cities whose mayors have lost control and can't or won't protect their citizens or property might have something to do with it. It doesn't matter that this is going to escalate the trouble rather than de-escalate it, since the extra harm won't accrue to anyone who was going to vote for him anyway.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:55 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Didn't see a need for a new thread. Apparently Trump thinks he can send in fed police to Chicago and end the gun violence.

While this is mostly about letting the squirrels out to distract people from his dismal response to the pandemic, I suspect this is another one of his fantasies. He believes he can fix any problem out there, and his go to answer is always something along the lines of cracking down with heavy handed police.
Can't work. First, when police get violent, people - duh - stop calling them and start pulling their guns and knives to settle disputes, as you said. That's especially true when the cops are so busy attacking people at random that they can't investigate serious crimes or offer witness protection - partly because they're often the criminals in question. Second, nowhere near enough officers to make much different being sent out. Third, he's very obviously targeting democratic cities at random, rather than responding to the most violent cities and towns.

The simple truth is that it's hot, it's summer, and lots of people are spending all damn day inside and out of work. Wanna lower it? Solve the pandemic get people back to work, and reform policing massively - or at the very least offer better unemployment and support for small businesses.
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