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Tags language , racial slurs , racism issues , semantics , Stephen Hagan

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Old 24th July 2020, 05:48 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which is what the thread is about....

Are you equally up in arms that I now have to ask for Starburst rather than opal fruits?
I'm not in arms about anything.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:53 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Certainly not. But unless you are going to educated the entire world that the cheese was named after the guy's last name, and not a racial slur, it could probably increase sales to change the name. Bottom line always comes first. However, a change to something like Mr. Coon's cheese might be enough to get people off your back, especially if in includes a stylalised logo similar to KFC's Colonel Sanders.
I can see the marketing man sweating like in the meme of having to push one of two buttons to market his cheese in a PC way: Make the character black, or make the character white?
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I was surprised to see faggots in the English frozen food section.

It wasn't world changing

It is pretty simple.

How far do the offended want to go?

Names of products. If yes, that's OK. But Please provide list.
Okay, cullennz, we get it.

Now, what would you do if you were in charge of Coon's overseas expansion plan. Do you just say, "Aaaah **** it, let's sell the Sepos and the Poms some good ol Coon!" or do you say, "Maybe we should change the name for this one?"

Same question if you want to sell golliwogs with Robertson's Marmalade in the US.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:58 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I feel guilty for being white because I've had unearned privileges from that.

I can't help feeling guilty.

Are you shaming someone for the same thing?
Are you dumping your shame on me?
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:59 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Can you put this cheese on crackers? If so, they should change the name to "Cracker Cheese".
Being a Florida Cracker myself, I'd buy that cheese! Might have even come from a Cracker cow's milk...in that case even better!

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Old 24th July 2020, 06:04 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If a person's surname "Coon" is not offensive, then why is a company name based on the same surname offensive?
I think there is a difference. We usually don't think of a person's name as something that is their fault or something to be ashamed of (someone started a thread about how they were named after Robert E. Lee - turns out that it is pretty common - and asked if they should change it. I thought no, but it would be a dick move today if you had a kid and named it after Robert E. Lee. It would be even worse if your kid was a girl, but maybe I am just old fashioned).

With a company, they seem to have more leeway and more choice about how they present themselves.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:06 AM   #87
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I tried to ask my nocturnal scavenging mammal hound about this, but all he did was bay....
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:08 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think there is a difference. We usually don't think of a person's name as something that is their fault or something to be ashamed of (someone started a thread about how they were named after Robert E. Lee - turns out that it is pretty common - and asked if they should change it. I thought no, but it would be a dick move today if you had a kid and named it after Robert E. Lee. It would be even worse if your kid was a girl, but maybe I am just old fashioned).

With a company, they seem to have more leeway and more choice about how they present themselves.
They do, but a) a LOT of companies bear the name of their founder and b) you can change your name rather easily as well, especially if you can argue that it's a slur.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:12 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You do understand that this forum is about reasoned discussion, right? Why does it feel that every one of your posts is rather an attack on another poster?
One of the first tactics we must adopt is to ascribe an emotive state to any respondent (I did it earlier). This seems to give one the upper ground and you can then proceed to trample all over any argument by referring back to it.

You shouldn't get your panties in such a twist over one poster attacking another
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:16 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You shouldn't get your panties in such a twist over one poster attacking another
My panties a NOT in a--- oh, I see.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:42 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Do you have a kind of inbuilt need to be patronising?

No. The racist scum I meet just used other words.

I am becoming increasingly sick of you making stuff up I have said or pretending to no my experiences.

Again

Please stop.
No. I have made up nothing. Show me where I attributed any quote to you.

Telling you people in the 90s didn't say "coon" because it is terribly offensive is not "pretending to know your experiences". I don't know what racists you hung out with, I can assure you some would have used it, particularly the older ones, and everyone would have known it to be a racist term.

It goes back a long way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._H._Elliott
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:42 AM   #92
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The surname probably started out a Kuhn. Nordic I think.

So, that cute bandit faced critter is now a Rackuhn.

Now, what do we call the day after Thanksgiving?

What about a business that is making a profit? Is it OK to say "it's in the black"?

What about Blackie's Hot Dog Relish?
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:47 AM   #93
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And I thought the OP was going to be about a rapper.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:10 AM   #94
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Seems pretty simple to me: whatever the origin of the product name if it is now viewed as deeply offensive to a substantial percent of the population it is time to change it. In the USA at least “coon” was widely used as an offensive, racist taunt and is much in the same category as the n-word. One doesn’t have to be a snowflake to be offended by it. Name of founder or not, it’s overdue for a change if only as a sensible business decision.

If the founder of your product was named Hitler, even if not related to Adolf, it would be best to change your product’s name from “Hitler’s Heavenly Cheese Bits” to something else.

What’s the other choice - attaching a pamphlet to every box with an explanation? Place a removable sticker over the name that says, “Before you read the name of this product, which will offend you, let us first explain why it really isn’t offensive...”?
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:11 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The surname probably started out a Kuhn. Nordic I think.

So, that cute bandit faced critter is now a Rackuhn.

Now, what do we call the day after Thanksgiving?

What about a business that is making a profit? Is it OK to say "it's in the black"?

What about Blackie's Hot Dog Relish?
I assume you have been asleep for the past 50 years and not seen this sort of stuff being rolled out and thoroughly rebutted every minute of every hour of every day continually through that period.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:15 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Seems pretty simple to me: whatever the origin of the product name if it is now viewed as deeply offensive to a substantial percent of the population it is time to change it.
Here's my question: is it viewed as offensive by the people it's supposed to offend?
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:20 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I tried to ask my nocturnal scavenging mammal hound about this, but all he did was bay....
I kinda twinge a bit when people ask me what kind of dogs I have. They are definitely innocent of any involvement in their breed naming.

Black and Tan hounds as been satisfactory so far and then the conversation quickly just turns to drinking.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:24 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
I kinda twinge a bit when people ask me what kind of dogs I have. They are definitely innocent of any involvement in their breed naming.

Black and Tan hounds as been satisfactory so far and then the conversation quickly just turns to drinking.
I suggest you don't go around certain parts of Ireland telling people how "satisfactory" the name is. See how easy it is to slip up?
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:32 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Or " Fuchs "..

I knew a guy, a Catholic priest actually named " Fuchs " ..

He pronounced it " Fox ".. Father Fox..
Fuchs lubes has operations in the US.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:36 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Here's my question: is it viewed as offensive by the people it's supposed to offend?
Pardon? Is it viewed as offensive by black people? I will only suggest you not test it out.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:37 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Pardon? Is it viewed as offensive by black people? I will only suggest you not test it out.
Why are you assuming not only that black people are offended by a brand name without checking, but that they might get violent on me just for asking the question?
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:37 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
"Getting offended by the name of a cheese brand is ridiculous says guy offended by the new name of a cheese brand."

- Just seen elsewhere.
Bingo.

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Old 24th July 2020, 07:38 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I suggest you don't go around certain parts of Ireland telling people how "satisfactory" the name is. See how easy it is to slip up?
Thanks for that bit of history unknown to me.

Riding in the front of the slippery slope toboggan. An employer has asked that I go through many of their security policy/procedure documents replacing the terms "whitelist/blacklist" "white hat/black hat"
Wish they would find a better term for "Penetration Test"
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:51 AM   #104
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I think most people don't care. However, if I were to own the business, I would always keep the marketing side of the product in mind. Questions like, "How will we best market our product to not only keep exist customers, but to reach new ones while, at the same time, minimizing the costs required to do so?"

It seems to me that if you can imagine a scenario where someone that is unfamiliar with your product. They see it on the shelf at their grocery store. They are curious, pick up the package and see the word "Coon" predominately displayed on the product (or any derivation of the word). I can easily imagine that there will be a percentage of people that will immediately recoil, rightly or not. Because of this, I think that a business should be cognizant of these issues especially if the bottom line is the main issue.

I think they should change the name if their marketing research tells them that the cost of doing so is less than the expected gains from new market share due to having a name no longer even tangentially close to something that could be construed as racist.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:15 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why are you assuming not only that black people are offended by a brand name without checking, but that they might get violent on me just for asking the question?
Where in my post do I suggest violence? Why are you assuming they would become violent? I was only suggesting that you would wish to avoid offending them by using the word, that you wouldn’t wish to incorrectly be viewed as insensitive or worse by tossing about a racist word.

I generally try to place myself in other people’s shoes to guess how they might feel. So, being Jewish, I tried the “Hitler’s Heavenly Cheese Bits” test and decided I would be offended by it. I gather the Coon cheese company has also received significant feedback from people who have been offended.

Are you really suggesting that a group of people who have for years been verbally assaulted with an intentionally malignant word would somehow not be offended seeing it as the name of a product? Advertised as such. On store shelves. That we would have to survey Jewish people (or most anyone else for that matter) to see if they had any problems with “Hitler’s Heavenly Cheese Bits?” Come off it.

I don’t get it. Why are some posters offended by what is a sensible business and ethical decision?
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:19 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Where in my post do I suggest violence? Why are you assuming they would become violent?
Because that's usually what's meant by the phrase you used.

Quote:
Are you really suggesting that a group of people who have for years been verbally assaulted with an intentionally malignant word would somehow not be offended seeing it as the name of a product?
I'm suggesting A) that it may be a good idea to hear whether the people we assume are going to be offended are actually offended before asking others to stop offending them and that B) maybe black people can understand something called context.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:27 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I don’t get it. Why are some posters offended by what is a sensible business and ethical decision?
I don't think it offends. I think it's a marketing decision and means absolutely bugger all beyond that. It doesn't change anything. It does't have anything to do with the systemic changes that are needed at government level in many countries to address issues that need addressing.

There's no pat on the back due to anyone and this doesn't really make the world a better place.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:30 AM   #108
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Kinda surprised the name lasted so long. I get it that it's named after the creator/founder but still. Is not "coon" a racial insult in the US? In the UK it's a pretty well established racial slur.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:31 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Because that's usually what's meant by the phrase you used.



I'm suggesting A) that it may be a good idea to hear whether the people we assume are going to be offended are actually offended before asking others to stop offending them and that B) maybe black people can understand something called context.
I dare say that being told “I suggest you not do that” is far from a universal threat of a violent consequence. “I suggest you not wear striped shirts with checkered ties” is not warning of a murderous consequence.

We know some people have already expressed offense at the name and that logic and empathy dictate that many others are too. And although I like to think I myself understand context, I would still be offended by my “Hitler’s Heavenly Cheese Bits” (tag line “Baked in gas ovens”?) whatever the origins or intent of the name. It is just unnecessary to continue to offend people in such a fashion.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:33 AM   #110
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One of my favorite name changes happened in Mesa. There is an area of town that used to be called Spook Hill and the the mayor and city council decided it was time to get rid of such an obviously racist place name. When local residents pointed out that the name had nothing to do with blacks, that it had been named by local cowboys who noted that their horses seemed to get "spooked" in that area, the mayor expressed skepticism. He did not believe there were a lot of horses in Mesa back in the pioneer days.

ETA: I meant to say that the reason this was one of my favorite name changes is because the name didn't get changed. Sanity actually prevailed for once and the area is still known as Spook Hill. For now.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:39 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
We know some people have already expressed offense at the name
White people or black people?

That's kind of important, because otherwise white people are just assuming that black people _should_ be offended by the brand name.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:09 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
White people or black people?

That's kind of important, because otherwise white people are just assuming that black people _should_ be offended by the brand name.

OK, I'm white. I would find it disturbing. If I was in Australia I would guess that the word probably doesn't have any racist connotation there, but it would still creep me out. If it was sold in the US, I would assume that the name had non-racist origins, but that company management were stupid and might also make bad decisions involving food safety.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:24 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
OK, I'm white.
So am I. That's why I don't want to speak for black Americans.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:45 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So am I. That's why I don't want to speak for black Americans.
I'm not speaking for anyone else when I say, I find it disturbing. To me.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:46 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I'm not speaking for anyone else when I say, I find it disturbing. To me.
And are you black?
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:51 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So am I. That's why I don't want to speak for black Americans.
What’s it got to do with Americans?
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:53 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What’s it got to do with Americans?
It's my impression that the slur is mostly used in the US, but I could be wrong.
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:54 AM   #118
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Old 24th July 2020, 09:57 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So am I. That's why I don't want to speak for black Americans.
Neither do I. That's why I stated that the name is disturbing to me. So is "B&M" beans. OK, I know the name has nothing to do with bowel movements, but for a product that looks the way it does, the name is just too close for my liking.
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Old 24th July 2020, 10:07 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's my impression that the slur is mostly used in the US, but I could be wrong.
The cheese is being marketed in Australia, so I don’t think Americans are going to be too worried, whatever their skin colour.

The term is certainly known as a racial epithet in the UK (see the video I linked earlier), though I’ve not heard it used for many years (outside re-broadcasts of old material). Whether it is known in Oz is surely the crucial point, though it could be a generational thing; I’m pretty sure Till Death Us Do Part would have been shown there. The fact that a name change has been proposed suggests that at least some people know about it.
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