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Tags language , racial slurs , racism issues , semantics , Stephen Hagan

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Old 24th July 2020, 02:34 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Won't someone think of the strawmen?
Sure someone will imagine them.
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:39 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
People here grew up with Coon Cheese. There’s a packet in our refrigerator.
.....
There is (or used to be) a candy called Licorice Babies.
https://www.carolscandycorner.com/licoricebabies.html

As recently as the 1960s, they were commercially marketed and sold as "N(word) Babies." Times change.
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:03 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not nonsensical. We can argue about it until the cows come home, but a bunch of white people being offended on behalf of black people doesn't really speak to me.
Nor does black people being offended on behalf of black people "speak to you," since you've discounted them as mere anecdotes. Really, I thought society had moved beyond having to statistically prove that each and every racial slur in a slightly different context is just as offensive as ever.

I am baffled by the idea that you believe that speaking out against racially insensitive comments that are not directed at you personally are somehow unnecessary, unappreciated, or worthless. In point of fact it is quite valuable that people directly unaffected take a principled stand against such racial insults.

If the Martin Niemöller quote ever had meaning it is here and now. Here is your chance to speak, and not only do you refuse to do so, you dismiss others that do.

You may enjoy the last word. The cows have come home here.
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:15 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There is (or used to be) a candy called Licorice Babies.
https://www.carolscandycorner.com/licoricebabies.html

As recently as the 1960s, they were commercially marketed and sold as "N(word) Babies." Times change.
Negro?
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:35 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Nor does black people being offended on behalf of black people "speak to you," since you've discounted them as mere anecdotes.
But they are anecdotes. I want to know if we have any statistical clue as to what black people think about the brand name. Are they generally offended, or not? It's a simple question, even though the answer might be complicated or opaque.

Quote:
I am baffled by the idea that you believe that speaking out against racially insensitive comments that are not directed at you personally are somehow unnecessary, unappreciated, or worthless. In point of fact it is quite valuable that people directly unaffected take a principled stand against such racial insults.
Did you not read my post? I made it clear, I believe, that in the past some white folks spoke out against things supposedly offensive to minorities when said minorities disagreed. Should action be taken to protect the feelings of those whose feelings aren't even hurt because some other group thinks they should be hurt? That doesn't make any sense to me.
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:38 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh come on everyone knows it's because KFC breed a special race of mutant poultry with extra drumsticks and the FDA wouldn't let them call it "chicken" anymore.
every time I hear of that urban legend.
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Old 24th July 2020, 03:53 PM   #167
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This is the guy who drove hard on this issue for decades.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hagan


He also campaigned against the naming of a sports stand that was a disgusting racial slur.

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 24th July 2020 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:18 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I feel guilty for being white because I've had unearned privileges from that.
You don't have unearned privileges. You simply have societal privilege that isn't available to some other people. You shouldn't feel guilty about having that privilege; you should be seeking ways to extend that same privilege to everyone.

'Privilege' is the worst word for this phenomenon. It causes reactions like yours, where people feel guilty for no good reason. You've done nothing wrong. You've committed no actions for which to feel guilt. You didn't build the system, you didn't create the disparity. It also causes defensiveness in people who feel that they are being attacked for simply being born into a country.

Privilege isn't something earned or unearned. It's simply the other side of disadvantage. It's recognition that what is normal operating procedure for you isn't the same experience that someone else has. Feeling guilty about having been born white is not going to solve the problem at all. It doesn't even address it.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:23 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Well, you created this thread, so why did this whole thing about name changes trigger you so much?
Arthwollipot started the thread.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:29 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Many years ago in Fort Wayne we had long-serving and well-respected mayor named Harry BaalsWP, whose name was pronounced like "hairy balls." There was a minor controversy a while back because there was a movement to name the new city hall after him, but that was nixed by the city government, for obvious reasons. Today his descendants still use the same spelling, but they pronounce their name like "bales."
I know a couple with last name "Aho" when I met them I asked if it was pronounced "ah-ho". No, they said, it's "A-ho". Hopefully none of their descendants are named "Harry".
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:29 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Thanks for that bit of history unknown to me.

Riding in the front of the slippery slope toboggan. An employer has asked that I go through many of their security policy/procedure documents replacing the terms "whitelist/blacklist" "white hat/black hat"
Wish they would find a better term for "Penetration Test"
And stop abbreviating "Analyst" to the first four letters.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:32 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Kinda surprised the name lasted so long. I get it that it's named after the creator/founder but still. Is not "coon" a racial insult in the US? In the UK it's a pretty well established racial slur.
I'm still shocked that Canada has a milk just for gay and lesbian people.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:39 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I am white. I wouldn't by the product because I find the name offensive. My assumption is my spouse would dislike and/or be offended.

My spouse is black. I just asked if she would like me to buy that product. The look I got was one that said I was in danger of spousal wrath while she responded "No."

"Why not?"

"What's wrong with you? The name."


I wonder if this satisfies you?
Just for curiosity sake, does her initial response change if you tell her that the founder of the company's last name was Coon, and it was named after him?
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:42 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
I get your argument. And what you're stating I often see it expressed in groups on the ends of political spectrum (left and right) and it reeks of imperialism and paternalism.
I don't understand the connection to imperialism and paternalism here.

ETA: I see your response... but i'm not clear whether you're agreeing with Belz or not.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:48 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Just for curiosity sake, does her initial response change if you tell her that the founder of the company's last name was Coon, and it was named after him?
I just posed your question to her. She thought a few seconds before saying that no, it's still a problem.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:51 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But isn't the Ozzy word 'coon' an aboriginal word to begin with?
No.
It has always been a racial epithet inherited from the British.
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
One of our great wine regions is Coonawarra. Could be next up.
No.
“Coonawarra” is widely accepted as Bindjali Aboriginal word meaning 'wild honeysuckle'.
Australia has sporadically conducted campaigns to replace racially offensive place names, but stories resulting in names such as AfricanAmericanmans Bay are highly exaggerated.
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Old 24th July 2020, 04:54 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I just posed your question to her. She thought a few seconds before saying that no, it's still a problem.
Thank you for asking.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:39 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
No.
It has always been a racial epithet inherited from the British.
No.
“Coonawarra” is widely accepted as Bindjali Aboriginal word meaning 'wild honeysuckle'.
Australia has sporadically conducted campaigns to replace racially offensive place names, but stories resulting in names such as AfricanAmericanmans Bay are highly exaggerated.
To defend the Brits (as a non-white Brit), it seems unlikely that this originated from Brits. As I understand it the term is originally a shortened form of Raccoon, a native animal from North America that is not found in Europe. Almost certainly this must be an American import. I cannot remember if it was used in Tom sawyer or Huck Finn, it may have come to the UK and Australia with US troops in WW2?
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:43 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's my impression that the slur is mostly used in the US, but I could be wrong.
No, it has been mentioned numerous times in this thread that the word "coon" is an offensive word in the UK as well. In fact, most Australians are perfectly aware that "Coon" shares its name with an offensive word. If you ask an Australian, approximately 0% of adults will be surprised to hear it also shares its name with a racial epithet.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In the current global market of ideas it's also easy for someone in one country to claim to be offended at something in another country.
Yes, it is, but so what? The campaign against Coon cheese's name is literally an indigenous one, not one that has just been drummed up by foreign stickybeaks.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, you've shown a single data point.
The data point in question is the black Australian guy, specifically an indigenous Australian (such as an Aborigine) who is campaigning for it to be changed. Apparently it has been going on for some time.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not nonsensical. We can argue about it until the cows come home, but a bunch of white people being offended on behalf of black people doesn't really speak to me. Remember the Redskins nonsense? Turns out most NAs didn't care about it.
Is this true? If so, how many did care? How many need to care before it becomes a problem?
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:46 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
To defend the Brits (as a non-white Brit), it seems unlikely that this originated from Brits. As I understand it the term is originally a shortened form of Raccoon, a native animal from North America that is not found in Europe. Almost certainly this must be an American import. I cannot remember if it was used in Tom sawyer or Huck Finn, it may have come to the UK and Australia with US troops in WW2?
I think the point is that it was commonly used by British people, and it was through them that it became used in Australia.
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Old 24th July 2020, 05:48 PM   #181
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It used to be be a very common hate word for Aborigines in Australia before we cracked down on racist speech.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:26 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yes, it is, but so what? The campaign against Coon cheese's name is literally an indigenous one, not one that has just been drummed up by foreign stickybeaks.
I was speaking generally.

Quote:
Is this true? If so, how many did care? How many need to care before it becomes a problem?
From memory, only 10%. As for when it's a problem, there's no scientific answer. The point is simply to be aware that just because we _think_ they're going to be offended, as a rule, it may not be so. So let's be careful with the crusadin'.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:33 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was speaking generally.



From memory, only 10%. As for when it's a problem, there's no scientific answer. The point is simply to be aware that just because we _think_ they're going to be offended, as a rule, it may not be so. So let's be careful with the crusadin'.
Sickening racist reference


https://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/...sque-killings/

Quote:
Crusaders to keep name, change logo after mosque killings

New Zealand’s Canterbury Crusaders announced Friday that the team will retain its name but change its logo after a review sparked by the deadly mosque shootings in its home city of Christchurch in March.

Critics said the name and branding referencing medieval wars between Christians and Muslims were inappropriate after the attacks, in which 51 Muslims died in attacks allegedly carried out by a self-declared white supremacist.

Immediately after the killings, the Super Rugby giants stopped parading chain-mailed knights on horseback as prematch entertainment at home games, and indicated the team logo of a sword-wielding crusader would be phased out.

But there was resistance among fans to changing the name of arguably the world’s most successful club rugby side, with a record tally of 10 Super Rugby titles, three of them won in the past three years.
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Old 24th July 2020, 06:52 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was speaking generally.
Then will you at least concede that this general point is irrelevant for the discussion on Coon Cheese, given that the campaign is an indigenous one?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
From memory, only 10%. As for when it's a problem, there's no scientific answer. The point is simply to be aware that just because we _think_ they're going to be offended, as a rule, it may not be so. So let's be careful with the crusadin'.
This is a strawman. You are making the claim that these things are only white guiltists making racist assumptions about what black people or indigenous people should be offended by as though they are not even consulted, when it turns out that in both cases: Coon cheese and the Washington Redskins, the issue was actually raised by people who believe the name is offensive to them.

The Washington Redskins is clearly more complicated than you are characterizing it. Apparently Native Americans have been complaining about the name independently of white do-gooders, SJWs, hand-wringers, self-flagellators. It may not be the most pressing issue for many of them, and some are in favour of the name, but according to Wikipedia:

Quote:
In the 1940s the National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) created a campaign to eliminate negative stereotyping of Native American people in the media. Over time, the campaign began to focus on Indian names and mascots in sports.[98] The NCAI maintains that teams with mascots such as the Braves and the Redskins perpetuate negative stereotypes of Native American people, and demean their native traditions and rituals.[99] The NCAI issued a new report in 2013 summarizing opposition to Indian mascots and team names generally, and the Washington Redskins in particular.[100] In the trademark case, the TTAB placed significance on the NCAI opposition, estimating that the organization represented about 30% of the Native American population at the time the trademarks were granted, which met their criteria for a "substantial composite" of Native Americans finding the name disparaging.[101] In its amicus brief filed in the case, the NCAI states that the combined enrollment of its member tribes in 2013 was 1.2 million individuals.[102]

Many tribal councils have passed resolutions or issued statements regarding their opposition to the name of the Washington Redskins, including the Cherokee and Comanche Nations of Oklahoma, the Inter Tribal Council of Arizona,[103] the Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes,[104][105] the Oneida Indian Nation (New York),[106] the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (North Dakota) and the United South and Eastern Tribes (USET).[107] In April 2014, Navajo Nation Council voted in favor of a statement opposing the name of the Washington team, as well as other disparaging references to American Indians by other professional sports franchises.[108] Other Native American groups advocating change include: the Native American Bar Association of DC,[109] the National Caucus of Native American State Legislators,[110] and the Society of American Indian Government Employees.
So yeah, you can wag your finger and tell everyone to be careful about the crusadin', but you be careful about the dismissin' and the hand-wavin'.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:11 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post


This is a strawman. You are making the claim that these things are only white guiltists making racist assumptions about what black people or indigenous people should be offended by as though they are not even consulted, when it turns out that in both cases: Coon cheese and the Washington Redskins, the issue was actually raised by people who believe the name is offensive to them.
Think it was actually a white Aussie comedian with Coon cheese leading it tbf.

You might want to read up a bit
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:22 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Think it was actually a white Aussie comedian with Coon cheese leading it tbf.

You might want to read up a bit
If you are going to try and sound condescending, try to get your facts straight first, otherwise you will look foolish.

Quote:
Dr Stephen Hagan was born in 1959 in Cunnamulla in South West Queensland, Australia. His father, Jim Hagan, belonged to the Kullili people of the region, while his mother was from the nearby Kooma....

...In 2001, Hagan filed a complaint with the Advertising Standards Bureau after an advertisement for Coon cheese was broadcast during the Academy Awards.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:28 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If you are going to try and sound condescending, try to get your facts straight first, otherwise you will look foolish.
That is fantastic, but it went no where. You know. Since it was 19 years ago and hadn't changed?....

Meanwhile few weeks ago

Jun 17 2020

Quote:
Australian comedian Josh Thomas wants Coon cheese to rebrand due to its historical use as a racial slur.

Thomas took to social media to lead the call, posting a photo of the cheese alongside the caption: "Hey Australia - are we still chill with this?''

Made by Warrnambool Cheese and Dairy Company, it's named after US creator Edward William Coon.

The fact it's named after its inventor doesn't bother Thomas, who argues the name is offensive and respectful.
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

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Old 24th July 2020, 07:39 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That is fantastic, but it went no where. You know. Since it was 19 years ago and hadn't changed?....

Meanwhile few weeks ago

Jun 17 2020
Huh? So what? Do you mean that because a white Australian also questioned the use that that invalidates a black Australian's 20+ plus-year campaign?
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:41 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think the point is that it was commonly used by British people, and it was through them that it became used in Australia.
I think this will be an evidence free zone. The question being whether it came directly to Australia from the US or indirectly via the UK.

There is a good history of the term in this article.
The Use of "Coon" in Conrad: British Slang or Racist Slur? Jeremy Hawthorn The Conradian Vol. 30, No. 1 (Spring 2005), pp. 111-117

Which suggests that in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century coon was a racially derogatory term in the US and in Australia (particularly referencing indigenous Australians), but in English English meant a cunning person and was not referencing race. The racist meaning may have entered English English from Australia! or more likely the US. Certainly in my life time I was always aware of it as a US racist term, I did not know that it had been widely used in Australia, and it is not one of the many racist terms I have heard used in England but accept it may have been more frequent in the past. (Nor have I heard it used in the sense of couth or cunning.)
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:46 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Huh? So what? Do you mean that because a white Australian also questioned the use that that invalidates a black Australian's 20+ plus-year campaign?
No

Do you mind posting some links to the 20 year continuous campaign?

Thanks

What I am saying that Aus has changed in 20 years.

It used to be a bit of a racist place and in some places still is.

The call was ignored 20 years ago and was forgotten and now some comedian lead it again and it is changing, as times have changed in Aus.

I have no doubt the Hagan dude is a good bloke though
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:47 PM   #191
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FWIW. Whatever the true origin of the name it was clearly the correct thing to change the name. In medicine, they keep on discovering that the person associated with Eponymous diseases was of dubious character, so they end up changing the name of the disease to something long and unmemorable so people have to keep on referring in talking (not print) to the disease 'formally known as X's syndrome'.
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:49 PM   #192
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think this will be an evidence free zone. The question being whether it came directly to Australia from the US or indirectly via the UK.

There is a good history of the term in this article.
The Use of "Coon" in Conrad: British Slang or Racist Slur? Jeremy Hawthorn The Conradian Vol. 30, No. 1 (Spring 2005), pp. 111-117

Which suggests that in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century coon was a racially derogatory term in the US and in Australia (particularly referencing indigenous Australians), but in English English meant a cunning person and was not referencing race. The racist meaning may have entered English English from Australia! or more likely the US. Certainly in my life time I was always aware of it as a US racist term, I did not know that it had been widely used in Australia, and it is not one of the many racist terms I have heard used in England but accept it may have been more frequent in the past. (Nor have I heard it used in the sense of couth or cunning.)
I don't know how old you are, but "coon" was frequently used in the UK, on mainstream TV, throughout the 70s and 80s (TV shows featuring Alf Garnett, the "comedy" of Bernard Manning and the movie Scum spring to mind). These films and TV shows were surely broadcast to Australia. I am sure that nobody above the age of 40 born and raised in the UK or Australia can claim to not know that coon is a racial epithet used against black people.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th July 2020, 07:52 PM   #193
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So does this mean you do want everyone with this last name to change it?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

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Old 24th July 2020, 07:55 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
No

Do you mind posting some links to the 20 year continuous campaign?

Thanks

What I am saying that Aus has changed in 20 years.

It used to be a bit of a racist place and in some places still is.

The call was ignored 20 years ago and was forgotten and now some comedian lead it again and it is changing, as times have changed in Aus.

I have no doubt the Hagan dude is a good bloke though
Oh FFS!

Quote:
Coon's owners, dairy products company Saputo, confirmed the change Friday after being written a letter of complaint in June by activist Stephen Hagan, who has been fighting for 20 years to have the name changed.

"I said that the cheese brand was offensive, I said that it demeans people of colour," Dr Hagan told the ABC on Friday.

"I said that it was unacceptable as a brand in 2020."
Quote:
"After thorough consideration, Saputo has decided to retire the COON brand name."

Saputo is the third owner of the brand Dr Hagan had asked to change the name, during his 21-year fight.

It was the first to listen to him.

"If I didn't make a stand, we would still be eating Coon cheese in another 20 years' time," he said.
Quote:
In an article published in The First Nations Telegraph in 2014, Dr Hagan said his research showed Edward Coon was an uneducated Russian immigrant who worked as a factory hand and the patent was launched in his name 10 years after the cheese was being sold.
Link

Answered! Now just admit you got it wrong and stop wasting people's time with this thread-Bobbing drivel.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:01 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Oh FFS!







Link

Answered! Now just admit you got it wrong and stop wasting people's time with this thread-Bobbing drivel.
Thank you

I was wrong
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:11 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Thank you

I was wrong
Thank you for conceding the point.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:23 PM   #197
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Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove material sent to AAH


It was a question and you haven't answered it.

Look at it from another way.

You personally happened to have been born with the surname "Coon".

Would you personally legally change it?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000

Last edited by Agatha; 25th July 2020 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:35 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It was a question and you haven't answered it.
Yes, I did...

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think there is a difference. We usually don't think of a person's name as something that is their fault or something to be ashamed of (someone started a thread about how they were named after Robert E. Lee - turns out that it is pretty common - and asked if they should change it. I thought no, but it would be a dick move today if you had a kid and named it after Robert E. Lee. It would be even worse if your kid was a girl, but maybe I am just old fashioned).

With a company, they seem to have more leeway and more choice about how they present themselves.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:42 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
According to this, the company was founded by Fred Walker, an Australian businessman who created Vegemite. The cheese is made by a process invented by the American Edward Coon, who apparently operated dairies but didn't sell cheese under that name. So the Australian Coon brand was not created by anybody named Coon, the name has no Australian connection, and the company has been through several changes of ownership, including getting sold by Kraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_cheese

Is Coon really the only name they can use for cheddar cheese in Australia? Or is it maybe smart for a marketer not to make consumers mad?
You left out the best part.

Quote:
...Coon cheese is named after its American creator, Edward William Coon (1871–1934) of Philadelphia, who patented a method, subsequently known as the Cooning process, for fast maturation of cheese via high temperature and humidity...
Which means the cheese sucks so change the name already.

Also, apparently, this isn't the first time this has come up.

Quote:
Its name, which it shares with a racial slur, was defended by previous manufacturers Kraft and Dairy Farmers despite campaigns to change it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_cheese
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Old 24th July 2020, 08:45 PM   #200
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Yes, I agree, because it's a good move and because these are the times we're in. People will still find and eat their cheese! It can't possibly hurt cheese sales overall. People want their cheese, and fans of the product will adapt.

I learned the word has racist connotations while working at a dog start up. People would tell me the kinds of dogs they had. Many people had a particular kind of hound. But one person told me that they didn't refer to their breed by the common name, as it was racist. I appreciate having been told that. I never uttered that dog breed name again.
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