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Old 30th July 2020, 06:18 PM   #81
sackett
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Continuing the theme (meme? oooh how I'd love to create a meme! but alas, that cant word's day is done) of Napoleon Bonespurs as third-world strongman: That political tactic, that style is all wrong outside of a small, new, disorganized state, a state with no history and no structure -- a peopled void, in short. The African or Near Eastern strongman is only strong in a weak place, where a little power is sufficiently dangerous to establish a regime.

But the USA is not small, new, disorganized, or weak; in fact, it has existed under the same constitution longer, I think, than any other country. The laws are a thick forest here; every man has legal standing. Citizen Thrumpf as president has some limited, clearly defined authorities that the law assigns to his temporary public office. He does not have power. Power is a crude thing with ill-defined borders, like cancer, and it does not admit of any control. Whom the gods wish to drive mad, they first make powerful.

Here, the gods have started with a man already half-mad from stupidity. (Make no mistake: ignorance opens the door to lunacy.) Every day, he oversteps his position more and more egregiously. If he were a serious man, he would long since have destroyed himself, or would have been destroyed.

Here in the US, we tend to allow these elected jokers a lot of rope; that's the habit of our old-time liberal foundations. We assume that a man in public life will be mostly more well-intentioned than otherwise. Perhaps we'll learn some nuance from these recent disgusting years.

But not cynicism. We've seen loathsome public men come and go for many generations, and I don't think that the USA is so innocent, or ever was, of human nature and its need for correction.
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Old 30th July 2020, 08:15 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
BTW, I have not noticed any modesty around here or elsewhere about using the f word with regard to any Republican president, and especially not from the OP.
And not just Republican presidents.

Barack Obama Is A Fascist: This Is Not Hyperbole

Trump's fascism picks up where Obama's left off

But Can Obama Make the Trains Run on Time?
Quote:
“Rhetorically, Republicans are having a very hard time finding something that raises the consciousness of the average voter,” said Saul Anuzis, a former chairman of the Michigan Republican Party who recently lost a bid to became national party chairman.

Workaday labels like “big spender” and “liberal” have lost their punch, and last fall, Senator John McCain of Arizona and Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska gained little traction during the presidential campaign by linking Mr. Obama’s agenda to socialism.

So Mr. Anuzis has turned to provocation with a purpose. He calls the president’s domestic agenda “economic fascism.”

“We’ve so overused the word ‘socialism’ that it no longer has the negative connotation it had 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago,” Mr. Anuzis said. “Fascism : everybody still thinks that’s a bad thing.”
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Old 30th July 2020, 10:48 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I'm wondering if the hysterical crowd who have such thinking realize how ridiculous they sound to normal people?

It's the huge, popular movements ready to authorize emergency powers to politicians that are the historical threats to freedom.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:04 PM   #84
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A summary of the conversation here seems to indicate that no, we can't call it fascism until we can no longer call it anything without going to jail. The prevailing theory among the "it's not fascism" crowd appears to be that fascism just suddenly appears fully formed and there's no transition period. I find this fairly stupid, but the people who apparently hold this view are all self-proclaimed skeptics, so I guess it's legit.
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Old 30th July 2020, 11:14 PM   #85
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Trumpism is Fascism.
Luckily, it hasn't taken over the whole country yet.
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Old 31st July 2020, 03:51 AM   #86
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Steven G. Calabresi - the co-founder of The Federalist Society, who has up until now supported Trump unquestioningly - is now calling Trump a fascist
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Old 31st July 2020, 03:54 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
RINO.

I bet you one shiny new penny that he'll still be voting for the GOP candidate for president in November.
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Old 31st July 2020, 05:21 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A summary of the conversation here seems to indicate that no, we can't call it fascism until we can no longer call it anything without going to jail. The prevailing theory among the "it's not fascism" crowd appears to be that fascism just suddenly appears fully formed and there's no transition period. I find this fairly stupid, but the people who apparently hold this view are all self-proclaimed skeptics, so I guess it's legit.
I am arguing that there are other nascent variations of nascent authoritarianism it could be besides nascent fascism.

This thread is like every casual boxing fan of a certain age comparing a new boxer to Mike Tyson.
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Old 31st July 2020, 05:23 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Hypocrite. They're part of the faction that led to this outcome.
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Old 31st July 2020, 05:40 AM   #90
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Also, why are we treating a date determined legislatively as so sacrosanct? The legislature that picked the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November is probably no smarter in aggregate than any other legislature.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:02 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Also, why are we treating a date determined legislatively as so sacrosanct? The legislature that picked the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November is probably no smarter in aggregate than any other legislature.
Clearly Trump's strategy should be to produce figures showing increased Covid cases occur on Tuesdays, and call for the banning of Tuesdays.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:04 AM   #92
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Listen I know the Republicans won't listen to reason.

So look at it this way. In Star Wars you know who started the vote to give Palpatine emergency powers? That's right, Jar Jar.

Do you want to be Jar Jar? Is that what you want? IS IT?
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:31 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy.

Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation:

Hyper nationalistic check
Far right check
Authoritarian check
One party state check
Positive view of violence check
Opposed to free press check
Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check
Racist check
You forgot the glorification of a fictionalized history ie "The Good Old Days" and the intertwining of government and religion.

Although, to be fair, most countries check off quite a few of those boxes. Even "Western style" democracies.

Is he authoritarian? Absolutely. Does he have fascist tendencies? No doubt.

Is he a fascist? Meh, real fascism, no matter what flavor we're talking, usually requires a long term plan and dedication. His malformed brain can't do that. Some of the scumbags he surrounded himself with might, but he can't. That said, I don't like the way the government has been trending.

But, when boots are on throats and protestors are getting tear gassed, there's no point in quibbling about semantics.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:40 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
How is someone blinding officers with lasers, shooting commercial fireworks at the officers, lobbing explosives and Molotov cocktails and other various missiles and trying to burn down a federal courthouse be considered protesters?
The American Revolution occurred because a government that did not adequately represent the population unjustly cracked down on “rioters and looters”. This type of resistance to government authority figures abusing their authority is baked into the structure of US democracy; if you don’t like it don’t live there.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:41 AM   #95
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wrong thread...
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Old 31st July 2020, 07:41 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Listen I know the Republicans won't listen to reason.

So look at it this way. In Star Wars you know who started the vote to give Palpatine emergency powers? That's right, Jar Jar.

Do you want to be Jar Jar? Is that what you want? IS IT?
The question you're asking here is "do you want to be a Sith Lord?" The answer to that is, obviously, "yes".
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Old 31st July 2020, 02:27 PM   #97
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It would be easier to allow that IF it wasn't with the usual vitriolic hyperbole that puts so far over the top it just gets silly. Kind of hard to take the OP seriously.
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Old 31st July 2020, 03:13 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trumpism is Fascism.
Luckily, it hasn't taken over the whole country yet.
I think Trumpism is better described as a sort of national collectivism, which I'm not ruling out could pave the way for a fascist regime but I don't think we'll see that anytime soon.
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Old 31st July 2020, 04:46 PM   #99
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Trumpism is an authoritarian personality cult, more like Stalinism or Maoism.
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Old 31st July 2020, 06:13 PM   #100
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There is an Atlantic article that says "Being an Actual Authoritarian Is Too Much Work for Trump"
Trump is the 7 deadly sins wrapped into one including sloth. He would love some aspects of being a dictator but would hate the work that it would require. I'll be so glad when he is gone.
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Old 1st August 2020, 01:29 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Also, why are we treating a date determined legislatively as so sacrosanct? The legislature that picked the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November is probably no smarter in aggregate than any other legislature.
Preach it, Brother Bob!

And while we're at it. What dimwit picked Sunday as go-to-church day?! After drinking and whoring Saturday night I don't wanna get up early on Sunday! Why couldn"t they pick some other day, goddammit?!

Or how about this Christmas hogwash? Wasn't Jesus born on some other completely different day? What idiot picked December 25th?!

Or what about Valentines Day? Or Columbus Day?

Doesn't anyone know all this arbitrary setting of dates is just stupid?!

[Preceding to be imagined in the 'special' magenta]

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Old 1st August 2020, 04:33 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Preach it, Brother Bob!

And while we're at it. What dimwit picked Sunday as go-to-church day?! After drinking and whoring Saturday night I don't wanna get up early on Sunday! Why couldn"t they pick some other day, goddammit?!

...snip...]
Blame the Romans - they made it "a day of rest" (of course day of rest meant day of rest for the wealthy and powerful - the plebs still had to fetch the water, clean the dishes and vacuum the villa), and as we know Christianity frowns upon anything that might not be entirely unpleasant so there was no way they were going to let people enjoy their day of rest (and again it was never really the day of rest for the vast majority, they may have got a couple of hours off) so the church had them standing in churches and chapels being bored to death by someone saying magic spells in latin and then getting the congregation to eat human blood and human flesh.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:04 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
I've been saying it for a long time. So have a lot of others. Everybody else kept saying we were wrong.

A singular feature of the conservative mindset is the inability to process new facts and concede they were mistaken. The fear they seem to feel at the idea of publicly being 'wrong' about something prevents them from admitting that new data changes things.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:12 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post

Is he a fascist? Meh, real fascism, no matter what flavor we're talking, usually requires a long term plan and dedication. His malformed brain can't do that. Some of the scumbags he surrounded himself with might, but he can't. That said, I don't like the way the government has been trending.

But, when boots are on throats and protestors are getting tear gassed, there's no point in quibbling about semantics.

Repugnicans set themselves on this path over half a century ago, with the conception of the "Southern Strategy" and their quite overt solicitation of support from right-wingnut religious fundamentalists, bigots, and racists.

They have done nothing but build on that strategy during the ensuing decades. No looking back. No re-thinking. No backing off.

Perhaps it didn't start out as a "plan". Perhaps it isn't one yet (although it sure walks like a duck). But if the endpoint is the same then the details of the path are really irrelevant.
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Old 1st August 2020, 10:41 AM   #105
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This is NOT a trolling question.

Haven't we been down a path of Fascism since the early 50's (Cold War)?
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:24 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
This is NOT a trolling question.

Haven't we been down a path of Fascism since the early 50's (Cold War)?
Not a trolling answer: since the 80s.

The seeds were there earlier, in McCarthyism, in the military-industrial complex, in the Southern Strategy, but they didn't start bearing fruit until the 80s, when Reagan-era Republicans hit upon the strategy of explicitly sabotaging the government's ability to function while blaming everyone else for it. It worked extremely well for a few decades until the mid-2000s when the lunatics started taking over the asylum and didn't understand the ideology was just a ploy.

The dysfunction of the Trump administration is the product of people hired to run a system they've been indoctrinated to mistrust outside of their own party and its authoritarian power structure. A party which used to dogwhistle to the racists, the Nazis, the evangelicals, the corrupt, because if they're going to be that cynical anyway they might as well scoop up the easy idiots to pander to, but is now openly inviting them because that's what people think they stand for.

When you add up the authoritarianism and the assorted deplorables and reprobates, there you go that's fascism. No one's saying "hey let's just be Nazis," ... except the Nazis, of course, and they're there too.
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Old 1st August 2020, 11:35 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Not a trolling answer: since the 80s.

The seeds were there earlier, in McCarthyism, in the military-industrial complex, in the Southern Strategy, but they didn't start bearing fruit until the 80s, when Reagan-era Republicans hit upon the strategy of explicitly sabotaging the government's ability to function while blaming everyone else for it. It worked extremely well for a few decades until the mid-2000s when the lunatics started taking over the asylum and didn't understand the ideology was just a ploy.

The dysfunction of the Trump administration is the product of people hired to run a system they've been indoctrinated to mistrust outside of their own party and its authoritarian power structure. A party which used to dogwhistle to the racists, the Nazis, the evangelicals, the corrupt, because if they're going to be that cynical anyway they might as well scoop up the easy idiots to pander to, but is now openly inviting them because that's what people think they stand for.

When you add up the authoritarianism and the assorted deplorables and reprobates, there you go that's fascism. No one's saying "hey let's just be Nazis," ... except the Nazis, of course, and they're there too.
I like how you described the path. I have to admit, I never thought about the Evangelicals and Nazis in the same boat but they are...
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Old 2nd August 2020, 07:23 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Not a trolling answer: since the 80s.

The seeds were there earlier, in McCarthyism, in the military-industrial complex, in the Southern Strategy, but they didn't start bearing fruit until the 80s, when Reagan-era Republicans hit upon the strategy of explicitly sabotaging the government's ability to function while blaming everyone else for it. It worked extremely well for a few decades until the mid-2000s when the lunatics started taking over the asylum and didn't understand the ideology was just a ploy.

The dysfunction of the Trump administration is the product of people hired to run a system they've been indoctrinated to mistrust outside of their own party and its authoritarian power structure. A party which used to dogwhistle to the racists, the Nazis, the evangelicals, the corrupt, because if they're going to be that cynical anyway they might as well scoop up the easy idiots to pander to, but is now openly inviting them because that's what people think they stand for.

When you add up the authoritarianism and the assorted deplorables and reprobates, there you go that's fascism. No one's saying "hey let's just be Nazis," ... except the Nazis, of course, and they're there too.
As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:00 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?


Where do you get this bull ****** ?
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:12 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This is why all the fevered fantasies of Trump refusing to accept the results of the election are just that--fantasies. Believe it or not, even Trump's biggest fans would abandon him in a heartbeat.

Now a fantasy I could believe in is Trump deciding to step down for the good of the country and Pence promptly pardoning him.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:17 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Where do you get this bull ****** ?
The Turner Diaries.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:30 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As opposed to the Left which wants stalinist style Communist, how is that any better?
Yes, there are extremists all over the political spectrum. Notwithstanding, this is disconnected from reality in one very important way:

Fringe lefties exist on the fringe. Whereas fringe righties are now mainstream, and they're running the country.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:39 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Yes, there are extremists all over the political spectrum. Notwithstanding, this is disconnected from reality in one very important way:

Fringe lefties exist on the fringe. Whereas fringe righties are now mainstream, and they're running the country.
The "But the other side is worse...!" defense, meh.

Democrats havent offered up an interesting candidate in years.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 10:56 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The "But the other side is worse...!" defense, meh.
Mice and elephants are gray and have tails. Yet if/when I visit Africa, I'm not going to worry much about getting trampled by a mouse.

The other side IS worse. Way worse.

Quote:
Democrats havent offered up an interesting candidate in years.
Interesting? When you move the goalpost, it works better if you're a tad bit more subtle.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:03 AM   #115
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Mice and elephants are gray and have tails. Yet if/when I visit Africa, I'm not going to worry much about getting trampled by a mouse.

The other side IS worse. Way worse.



Interesting? When you move the goalpost, it works better if you're a tad bit more subtle.
No both sides suck in their own special way. Nancy Pelosi is as vile as Mitch "Tippy the Turtle" O'Connell. Partisan loyalty is a weakness.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:10 AM   #116
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The "But the other side is worse...!" defense, meh.

Democrats havent offered up an interesting candidate in years.
I have plenty of issues with the Democratic Party (mainly the fact that it's a centrist party), but one thing I can say in their favor is that their presidential nominees are sane. As far as I can tell, they're also intelligent. The last two Republican presidents have been dumb, and the current one is dumb and mentally unstable.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:11 AM   #117
Lurch
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The "But the other side is worse...!" defense, meh.

Democrats havent offered up an interesting candidate in years.
As opposed to the last 'interesting' GOP candidate now in office. Interesting, as in the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:13 AM   #118
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
As opposed to the last 'interesting' GOP candidate now in office. Interesting, as in the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."
Maybe compelling is the better word, as opposed to Establishment Cog.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:32 AM   #119
varwoche
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
No both sides suck in their own special way. Nancy Pelosi is as vile as Mitch "Tippy the Turtle" O'Connell. Partisan loyalty is a weakness.
More off-topic goalpost motion.

Can you name one mainstream Dem who does the sort of thing that authoritarians like Trump do...?

call the press an enemy of the people
explicitly support violence against reporters
explicitly support violence against peaceful protesters
perpetrate violence against peaceful protesters (Lafayette Park)
routinely call for political opponents to be jailed

Please cite one lonely, specific example. No members of the Berkeley City Council please. Big league only.
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Last edited by varwoche; 2nd August 2020 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2020, 11:34 AM   #120
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
More off-topic goalpost motion.

Can you name one mainstream Dem who does the sort of thing that Fascists like Trump do...?

call the press an enemy of the people
explicitly support violence against reporters
explicitly support violence against peaceful protesters
perpetrate violence against peaceful protesters (Lafayette Park)
routinely call for political opponents to be jailed

Please cite one lonely, specific example. No members of the Berkeley City Council please. Big league only.
I can do better. The dems who thought Hillary was a shoe in stayed home, and Trump won. Part of the responsibility of him being President is establishment Democrat complacency. Own it.
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