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Old 22nd June 2018, 05:18 AM   #201
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Have you any evidence to back that up? Evidence which shows a shooter goes to his intended scene, shoots and then goes on to shoot, may high on the adrenaline, or something?

Otherwise you are creating an excuse for good guys to use their guns and I do not think the good guy/bad guy is as clear cut as it is often suggested. A good guy could just monitor and warn others to keep away (which an unarmed good guy has to do).
Do I have evidence that a person brandishing a firearm, fleeing a violent crime scene may be dangerous? Is that a joke?
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Old 22nd June 2018, 06:26 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Have you any evidence to back that up? Evidence which shows a shooter goes to his intended scene, shoots and then goes on to shoot, may high on the adrenaline, or something?

Otherwise you are creating an excuse for good guys to use their guns and I do not think the good guy/bad guy is as clear cut as it is often suggested. A good guy could just monitor and warn others to keep away (which an unarmed good guy has to do).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_S...nardino_attack

On December 2, 2015, 14 people were killed and 22 others were seriously injured in a terrorist attack consisting of a mass shooting and an attempted bombing at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, California. The perpetrators, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, a married couple living in the city of Redlands, targeted a San Bernardino County Department of Public Health training event and Christmas party of about 80 employees in a rented banquet room. Farook was a U.S.-born citizen of Pakistani descent, who worked as a health department employee. Malik was a Pakistani-born lawful permanent resident of the United States.

After the shooting, the couple fled in a rented sport utility vehicle (SUV). Four hours later, police pursued their vehicle and killed them in a shootout, which also left two officers injured.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_s...olice_officers

Four Oakland, California police officers were fatally shot on March 21, 2009, by Lowlife ************, a convicted felon wanted on a no-bail warrant for a parole violation, who had also committed a series of violent rapes linked to him by DNA. Mixon shot and killed two Oakland police officers during a routine traffic stop. After escaping on foot to the nearby apartment of his sister, ************ shot and killed two police SWAT team officers attempting to apprehend him. ************ was killed as other officers on the team returned fire.

I knew two of the four officers murdered. One wwas my close friend, Erv Romans.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 01:00 PM   #203
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You are all now conflating spree shootings whereby a shooter moves around and a mass shooting whereby a shooter selects one location for what ever reason. The restaurant shooting had all the hallmarks of a mass shooting. No evidence has been presented to show the shooter was off to fond another target.

You are all also confirming I was correct to say the reaction to a shooter, what ever the circumstances, is he is now fair game to be taken down by good guys, no matter the circumstances.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 01:12 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You are all now conflating spree shootings whereby a shooter moves around and a mass shooting whereby a shooter selects one location for what ever reason. The restaurant shooting had all the hallmarks of a mass shooting. No evidence has been presented to show the shooter was off to fond another target.

You are all also confirming I was correct to say the reaction to a shooter, what ever the circumstances, is he is now fair game to be taken down by good guys, no matter the circumstances.
It is not necessary for there to be another "target" in mind. The person is a fleeing felon who is armed. It is reasonable to assume the fleeing, armed felon may use his lethal weapon to aid in his escape from justice.

While lethal force is not lawful (or ethical in my view) on all fleeing felons, it is certainly lawful, ethical, and reasonable that lethal force be used on a fleeing felon who is reasonably believed to be dangerous to the public at large. An easy way for a fleeing felon to communicate their lack of danger to the public would be to disarm themselves.

Seriously, how much leeway do think society needs to provide here? "Jeez, he just executed 4 people and is running towards me with a bloody knife, but I'll wait until he tries to stab me before I act. And even then, maybe he's not trying to kill me, so I'll have to wait to see if he tries to stab me in the heart or just wants to trim the hair around my ears". The generosity you suggest extending is patently absurd.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner
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Old 22nd June 2018, 02:22 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You are all now conflating spree shootings whereby a shooter moves around and a mass shooting whereby a shooter selects one location for what ever reason. The restaurant shooting had all the hallmarks of a mass shooting. No evidence has been presented to show the shooter was off to fond another target.

You are all also confirming I was correct to say the reaction to a shooter, what ever the circumstances, is he is now fair game to be taken down by good guys, no matter the circumstances.
Have you ever heard the expression "Killing Spree?" how did that phrase enter the language?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_...chool_shooting

Murder of Nancy Lanza

Some time before 9:30 a.m. EST on Friday, December 14, 2012, Lanza shot and killed his mother Nancy Lanza, aged 52, at their Newtown home.[26] Investigators later found her body clad in pajamas, in her bed, with four gunshot wounds to her head.[27] Lanza then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School in his mother's car.[26][28]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.504feb0d7623

The victims in the days-long killing spree worked in related fields, a fact that had raised fears that the suspect might be indiscriminately attacking people who worked in the criminal justice or court system in the Phoenix area.


https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92539&page=1

A bloody weekend rampage ended early this morning when a man suspected of killing five people in the Sacramento area shot himself in the head after a high-speed chase and gunfight with police, officials said.

Joseph Ferguson, 20, who had been recently suspended from his job as a Burns security guard, allegedly shot to death five people in three locations during a 24-hour killing spree that began late Saturday. It was the second multiple slaying case in the area in less than a month.

Early Sunday, Ferguson killed two security guards who had been his co-workers and took a car at a Sacramento equipment yard, police said. He then reportedly drove to a marina where he shot and killed two more people, and then to a zoo where he handcuffed a security guard and took her car.


Here's a classic, there's even a movie about these crimes:

https://www.wyohistory.org/encyclope...il-fugate-1958

The capture, after a high-speed shoot-out through downtown Douglas, brought to an end a murderous rampage that had claimed eleven lives, counting a victim Starkweather had murdered two months earlier, and kept residents of Nebraska and the surrounding region in a state of panic for a full week.

http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/...y-invesigators

Authorities sought to assure the public that a serial killer was not on the loose when they revealed that two suspects in a string of murders on the Tennessee-Alabama state line have been in custody for months.

Lincoln County Sheriff Murray Blackwelder said Friday that the individuals, who were not named, have been custody since October on unrelated charges. They remain in the Madison County jail in Alabama.

Blackwelder said the suspects have not yet been charged in relation to the deaths of three women, a toddler and two men who were found in four separate locations in Lincoln County and over the state line in north Alabama in October.

District Attorney General Robert Carter said they are waiting on evidence analysis from the state crime lab.


http://www.remarkableohio.org/index.php?/category/1468

One of Ohio's greatest manhunts ended here on the morning of July 23, 1948. Robert M. Daniels and John C. West, parolees from the state prison in Mansfield, had gone on a killing spree that left six people dead. Driving west on U.S. Route 224 in a stolen auto transport truck, the pair approached this intersection and encountered a roadblock. It was manned by Van Wert County Sheriff Roy Shaffer, Frank Friemoth, the county game warden, and Sergeant Leonard Conn of the Van Wert city police. West was driving the truck; Daniels was asleep in a car overhead. As Sheriff Shaffer climbed onto the truck and apprehended Daniels, West leaped from the cab and shot Conn in the chest and Friemoth in the arm. Conn returned fire and killed West. The officers survived their wounds. Daniels was convicted, sentenced to die, and electrocuted at the Ohio Penitentiary in Columbus on January 3, 1949. This marker pays tribute to all law enforcement officers who risk their lives to protect the citizens of their communities.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 03:21 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You are all now conflating spree shootings whereby a shooter moves around and a mass shooting whereby a shooter selects one location for what ever reason. The restaurant shooting had all the hallmarks of a mass shooting. No evidence has been presented to show the shooter was off to fond another target.

You are all also confirming I was correct to say the reaction to a shooter, what ever the circumstances, is he is now fair game to be taken down by good guys, no matter the circumstances.

At the time of the shooting, the bystanders at the restaurant didn't have time to investigate whether he was off to find another target.


And if, by "taken down", you mean disarmed and neutralized as a threat, then absolutely he's fair game. And if he happens to die in the process, oh, well.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 02:23 AM   #207
Nessie
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It is not necessary for there to be another "target" in mind. The person is a fleeing felon who is armed. It is reasonable to assume the fleeing, armed felon may use his lethal weapon to aid in his escape from justice.

While lethal force is not lawful (or ethical in my view) on all fleeing felons, it is certainly lawful, ethical, and reasonable that lethal force be used on a fleeing felon who is reasonably believed to be dangerous to the public at large. An easy way for a fleeing felon to communicate their lack of danger to the public would be to disarm themselves.

Seriously, how much leeway do think society needs to provide here? "Jeez, he just executed 4 people and is running towards me with a bloody knife, but I'll wait until he tries to stab me before I act. And even then, maybe he's not trying to kill me, so I'll have to wait to see if he tries to stab me in the heart or just wants to trim the hair around my ears". The generosity you suggest extending is patently absurd.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner
I do get why you think those who have been shooting should then be shot dead. I prefer that the best attempts are made to arrest so justice is served.

I think civilians with guns attempting arrests are not a good thing. I would prefer the police to do their job. But, I suppose I am thinking of the UK police and the contain and negotiate strategy, rather than the US police who also just appear and shoot the suspect dead.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 02:25 AM   #208
Nessie
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Have you ever heard the expression "Killing Spree?" how did that phrase enter the language?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_...chool_shooting

Murder of Nancy Lanza

Some time before 9:30 a.m. EST on Friday, December 14, 2012, Lanza shot and killed his mother Nancy Lanza, aged 52, at their Newtown home.[26] Investigators later found her body clad in pajamas, in her bed, with four gunshot wounds to her head.[27] Lanza then drove to Sandy Hook Elementary School in his mother's car.[26][28]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.504feb0d7623

The victims in the days-long killing spree worked in related fields, a fact that had raised fears that the suspect might be indiscriminately attacking people who worked in the criminal justice or court system in the Phoenix area.


https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92539&page=1

A bloody weekend rampage ended early this morning when a man suspected of killing five people in the Sacramento area shot himself in the head after a high-speed chase and gunfight with police, officials said.

Joseph Ferguson, 20, who had been recently suspended from his job as a Burns security guard, allegedly shot to death five people in three locations during a 24-hour killing spree that began late Saturday. It was the second multiple slaying case in the area in less than a month.

Early Sunday, Ferguson killed two security guards who had been his co-workers and took a car at a Sacramento equipment yard, police said. He then reportedly drove to a marina where he shot and killed two more people, and then to a zoo where he handcuffed a security guard and took her car.


Here's a classic, there's even a movie about these crimes:

https://www.wyohistory.org/encyclope...il-fugate-1958

The capture, after a high-speed shoot-out through downtown Douglas, brought to an end a murderous rampage that had claimed eleven lives, counting a victim Starkweather had murdered two months earlier, and kept residents of Nebraska and the surrounding region in a state of panic for a full week.

http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/...y-invesigators

Authorities sought to assure the public that a serial killer was not on the loose when they revealed that two suspects in a string of murders on the Tennessee-Alabama state line have been in custody for months.

Lincoln County Sheriff Murray Blackwelder said Friday that the individuals, who were not named, have been custody since October on unrelated charges. They remain in the Madison County jail in Alabama.

Blackwelder said the suspects have not yet been charged in relation to the deaths of three women, a toddler and two men who were found in four separate locations in Lincoln County and over the state line in north Alabama in October.

District Attorney General Robert Carter said they are waiting on evidence analysis from the state crime lab.


http://www.remarkableohio.org/index.php?/category/1468

One of Ohio's greatest manhunts ended here on the morning of July 23, 1948. Robert M. Daniels and John C. West, parolees from the state prison in Mansfield, had gone on a killing spree that left six people dead. Driving west on U.S. Route 224 in a stolen auto transport truck, the pair approached this intersection and encountered a roadblock. It was manned by Van Wert County Sheriff Roy Shaffer, Frank Friemoth, the county game warden, and Sergeant Leonard Conn of the Van Wert city police. West was driving the truck; Daniels was asleep in a car overhead. As Sheriff Shaffer climbed onto the truck and apprehended Daniels, West leaped from the cab and shot Conn in the chest and Friemoth in the arm. Conn returned fire and killed West. The officers survived their wounds. Daniels was convicted, sentenced to die, and electrocuted at the Ohio Penitentiary in Columbus on January 3, 1949. This marker pays tribute to all law enforcement officers who risk their lives to protect the citizens of their communities.
Its OK, I get the assumption is all shooters are spree killers and need to be shot dead asap after the first shooting.

It is probably a good idea for that to be the correct tactic in the USA due to the number of spree killings.
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Old 23rd June 2018, 02:26 AM   #209
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
At the time of the shooting, the bystanders at the restaurant didn't have time to investigate whether he was off to find another target.


And if, by "taken down", you mean disarmed and neutralized as a threat, then absolutely he's fair game. And if he happens to die in the process, oh, well.
I understand now, the need to just take out rather than arrest a shooter. It is not worth the risk.
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