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Old 29th September 2022, 03:19 AM   #281
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
TragicMonkey has been defending this person, with an argument based on the assumption of absence of harm.
Seems that it is causing a huge headache to a lot of other people who work at and attend the school, and for the school district, but I guess we aren't allowed to consider any of that to be "harm".

I'm sympathetic to the principle, (things that cause no harm should generally not be prohibited), I just disagree that this is completely harmless. If it makes others uncomfortable, it's arguably harmful. I think there are things we prohibit simply on the basis that it makes some people feel uncomfortable.

Here's an example from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_work_environment

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In United States labor law, a hostile work environment exists when one's behavior within a workplace creates an environment that is difficult or uncomfortable for another person to work in, due to illegal discrimination.[1] Common complaints in sexual harassment lawsuits include fondling, suggestive remarks, sexually-suggestive photos displayed in the workplace, use of sexual language, or off-color jokes.[2]
This falls into a zone similar to "suggestive remarks, sexually-suggestive photos displayed in the workplace, use of sexual language, or off-color jokes".
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:21 AM   #282
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I think it's fair to say that exploding anime boobies count as suggestive, if not obscene.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if another teacher got litigious about it.
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:38 AM   #283
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They won't. It's back to the impossibility of criticising anything done under the "trans umbrella". They'd be opening themselves to the danger of being fired for bigotry and transphobia and hate speech.
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:43 AM   #284
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That wiki page is so not saying that, if you even bother to read what's in the part that's quoted, and doubly so if you read the whole damn page.

The keywords to even the quoted part are: due to illegal discrimination. Yeah, without that it doesn't fit the definition.

Essentially the point is that if you're not allowed to discriminate against, say, Arabs for employment, then you're also not allowed to try to drive them off with bullying. Like, you can't go around making jokes about Arabs being terrorists or screwing goats.

Ditto for whistleblowers, actually. Just because you can't fire one, doesn't mean you can go and try to make their life a living hell and make them leave that way.

But anyway, ssentially it has to actually constitute a statutory violation of discrimination laws.

It's also, as the same page will tell you, not a general civility code or anything. You have to actually harrass a group. It also isn't sufficient for a complaint in most states. You have to actually show that you were targeted specifically because of your race, sex, etc. So basically paradoxically someone who's a bellend to everyone is safer than someone who's selective about it.

But, anyway, TL;DR version: you'd have to establish a lot more for that claim than just someone wearing fake boobs.
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:46 AM   #285
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One theory put forward here is that getting fired may in fact be the goal, as that would potentially open the door for a lawsuit for discrimination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqPSeMr74qs
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:52 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post

Relevant info would be whether this person also wears these things both on and off the job. Does he wear them to the supermarket too?
The TikTok video I mentioned earlier was filmed "in the wild" with several comments mentioning they's seen Lemieux in environments other than the school.
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:53 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
One theory put forward here is that getting fired may in fact be the goal, as that would potentially open the door for a lawsuit for discrimination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqPSeMr74qs
And possibly for a hostile work environment, since you mentioned that. That's how that works, really. If he can show that before getting rid of him, they were hostile to his being a trans (e.g., kept cracking jokes about it and whatnot), he could get bigger chunk of money. That legal concept works for him, not against him.
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Old 29th September 2022, 05:56 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
That wiki page is so not saying that, if you even bother to read what's in the part that's quoted, and doubly so if you read the whole damn page.

The keywords to even the quoted part are: due to illegal discrimination. Yeah, without that it doesn't fit the definition.
Well I'm not trying to claim that this creates a hostile workplace in a legal sense. I'm using it as an example to illustrate the point that "harm" can be simply making other people feel uncomfortable. I think TM actually used the phrase "quantifiable harm". "Quantifiable" means that you somehow need to be able to assign some sort of numerical value to the amount of harm, which seems hard to do when the harm is to someone's feelings.
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Old 29th September 2022, 06:01 AM   #289
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Still not the best example, IMHO. The laws about hostile work environments also need you to sorta be able to quantify it. Maybe not at the level of putting a number into it, but you have to show it was past the threshold pervasive and severe enough to make an average person want to quit, not just one comment or incident or just some annoyance. That kind of threshold quantifying is actually very common in law.

Usual disclaimer before I forget about it again: this is not legal advice. If you want to know about cracking sex jokes at work, please consult with your local lawyers' guild. And probably with HR first, because these guys' job is to be more sensitive than a jury, precisely to stop it before it reaches the legal threshold.
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Old 29th September 2022, 06:57 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think it's fair to say that exploding anime boobies count as suggestive, if not obscene.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if another teacher got litigious about it.
Also, it probably qualifies as an "off-color joke".
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Old 29th September 2022, 07:06 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Well I'm not trying to claim that this creates a hostile workplace in a legal sense. I'm using it as an example to illustrate the point that "harm" can be simply making other people feel uncomfortable. I think TM actually used the phrase "quantifiable harm". "Quantifiable" means that you somehow need to be able to assign some sort of numerical value to the amount of harm, which seems hard to do when the harm is to someone's feelings.
I think you took a stab at it by saying that they had to pay for this teacher's security, which honestly is a terrible example of "quantifiable harm" from a principled perspective.

Also, I am starting to think that the teacher here is genuinely doing this. Not doing a prank, unless they are really playing the long-game. An anonymous post on 4Chan is utterly meaningless evidence for the opposite. The only thing that made me doubt this before was that I believed no one could seriously be wearing these boobs sincerely.

Maybe they are.

BUT I think the staff at the school need to have the fortitude to say, come on now, you can do this kind of thing at home, but ... I don't agree with that in the workplace!
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Old 30th September 2022, 04:02 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Does this mean that in this case, the example in the OP, if the person involved were to tape down the nipples so they were not explictly visible through clothing you would have no objection to them continuing to wear them?
It would be an interesting situation and might, at least, help clarify what is being done and why. If the teacher complied, I think they'd have a good case for telling critics to shut up and get over it, even if one has ample reason to think that the gesture is tasteless and ridiculous. Freedom is tested at the edges, not the middle, and there's a good reason for laws to be specific.
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Old 30th September 2022, 04:29 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think you took a stab at it by saying that they had to pay for this teacher's security, which honestly is a terrible example of "quantifiable harm" from a principled perspective.

Also, I am starting to think that the teacher here is genuinely doing this. Not doing a prank, unless they are really playing the long-game. An anonymous post on 4Chan is utterly meaningless evidence for the opposite. The only thing that made me doubt this before was that I believed no one could seriously be wearing these boobs sincerely.

Maybe they are.

BUT I think the staff at the school need to have the fortitude to say, come on now, you can do this kind of thing at home, but ... I don't agree with that in the workplace!

You are Eric Hitchmough and I claim my £5.
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Old 30th September 2022, 04:43 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
It would be an interesting situation and might, at least, help clarify what is being done and why. If the teacher complied, I think they'd have a good case for telling critics to shut up and get over it, even if one has ample reason to think that the gesture is tasteless and ridiculous. Freedom is tested at the edges, not the middle, and there's a good reason for laws to be specific.
Taping the nipples doesn't solve the problem, in my opinion. Same as throwing a censor bar across 20‰ of a cock head's silhouette doesn't stop it from being hentai, and pixelating the vulva as such doesn't stop it from being porn.
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Old 30th September 2022, 07:00 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Taping the nipples doesn't solve the problem, in my opinion. Same as throwing a censor bar across 20‰ of a cock head's silhouette doesn't stop it from being hentai, and pixelating the vulva as such doesn't stop it from being porn.
True enough in one sense, but in the strictly legal sense, if visible nipples are the basis for a complaint, that complaint is disarmed if the nipples are not visible. We can argue all sorts of ways about how and why this gesture is extreme, ugly, inappropriate, belligerent, and so forth, and the problem of the person's behavior and character is not addressed. But we're not talking about hentai and pixellated porn. Every person has nipples, and everyone knows they're there, but we're penalized not for having them but for showing them. Taping them would be malicious compliance at best, but I think it could constitute compliance sufficient to make further pursuit very difficult.
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Old 30th September 2022, 11:25 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Taping the nipples doesn't solve the problem, in my opinion. Same as throwing a censor bar across 20‰ of a cock head's silhouette doesn't stop it from being hentai, and pixelating the vulva as such doesn't stop it from being porn.
Wait... wait... that's censorship? I thought they had pixelated genitals
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Old 1st October 2022, 05:02 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You are Eric Hitchmough and I claim my £5.


You got it!
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Old 1st October 2022, 05:08 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
True enough in one sense, but in the strictly legal sense, if visible nipples are the basis for a complaint, that complaint is disarmed if the nipples are not visible. We can argue all sorts of ways about how and why this gesture is extreme, ugly, inappropriate, belligerent, and so forth, and the problem of the person's behavior and character is not addressed. But we're not talking about hentai and pixellated porn. Every person has nipples, and everyone knows they're there, but we're penalized not for having them but for showing them. Taping them would be malicious compliance at best, but I think it could constitute compliance sufficient to make further pursuit very difficult.
Only makes "pursuit" difficult if for some reason you're unwilling to say that pornography cannot be displayed on campus
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Old 1st October 2022, 06:23 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Only makes "pursuit" difficult if for some reason you're unwilling to say that pornography cannot be displayed on campus
But the definition of "pornography" is subjective. If rules are established to sidestep the problem of subjectivity, as is often the case, then compliance is compliance. I did previously say "if" and did say "difficult," not impossible.

In this case, if there is a rule that you can't show visible nipples, then if visible nipples are not shown, the rule is met. Some other rule must be invoked then, and few possibilities are obvious that do not constitute a subjective notion of when something permissible is taken to an extreme.

After all, obviously the possession of nipples is permissible. It's likely too that some degree of artificiality and enhancement is also permitted, to accommodate transsexuals and women who have had mastectomies, and so forth, and to prevent odious invasions of privacy. I think this is true even when, despite differences on just where the tipping point is, everyone is pretty well agreed that this is well past it. It's still subjective, and thus arguable in a way a simple rule is not.

I think in this case, the teacher in question is asking for trouble and a big, messy, boundary-challenging fuss, and that's what's going to happen.
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Old 11th October 2022, 09:06 AM   #300
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Mod WarningAgain, this is not the place for the discussion of trans issues in general. This thread should be focussed directly on the teacher in Ontario.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:xjx388
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Old 12th November 2022, 11:50 AM   #301
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The School Board Makes A Decision (or does it?)

Halton school board says it can’t impose dress code for teachersl

and

Quote:
In a report presented to trustees on Wednesday, the Halton District School Board’s director of education and its superintendent of human resources said that such a move could violate the human rights code and that, in any event, new rules can’t be considered at the moment because of current collective bargaining with teacher unions.
The Province is yet to make a decision.

Quote:
Education Minister Stephen Lecce has asked the Ontario College of Teachers to review professional conduct for teachers in light of the Halton controversy.

The college’s review, which has been completed, is expected to cover some discussion of a standard dress code or expectations or a tightening of ethical standards, which currently state teachers must “uphold the honour and dignity of the teaching profession.”
More news at 11.
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