ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags authors , Robert Heinlein , science fiction authors , science fiction books

View Poll Results:
0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 19th January 2005, 09:35 AM   #1
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
 
Piscivore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home is wherever I'm with you
Posts: 27,388
Rate Heinlein

Please feel free to expand on your answer- in your opinion what did he do right, what (if anything) did he do wrong.

Also, do you prefer his adult novels or his teen fiction?
__________________
Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV.

"...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen
Piscivore is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2005, 05:55 PM   #2
Donks
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,287
I haven't read much of his work, only Starship Troopers, Stranger in a Strange Land, and the collection The Man Who Sold the Moon. I liked the novels well enough, particularly ST, but while reading the collection of short stories, I just couldn't stop myself from thinking how poorly they had aged, and that detracted a lot of the enjoyment for me.
Donks is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2005, 11:53 PM   #3
Nova Land
/
Tagger
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whitleyville, TN, surrounded by cats
Posts: 5,710
I love Heinlein's work from the '40s and '50s, both the adult and juvenile but my favorites are both juveniles: Tunnel In the Sky and The Star Beast. Heinlein had a great knack for writing dialogue and for creating intriguing characters, especially strong (for the time) female characters.

I liked some of his early '60s stuff, although not as much as his previous work. While he was happier writing with less editorial direction and restriction, I think he actually produced better work (or, at least, work I enjoyed more) when he had to figure out ways around all the restrictions that were imposed in the '40s and '50s. The romances in those earlier books were a lot more fun and a lot sexier (I thought) than the more explicit stuff of Glory Road. Stranger In A Strange Land, and later.

Stranger In A Strange Land was interesting, but didn't affect me nearly as much as his previous work. And the books that followed got more and more self-indulgent. As a Heinlein addict, I struggled through Friday, Time Enough for Love, and I Will Fear No Evil, and probably one or two of his other later novels, but I'm still waiting on reading the last few he wrote.

(I would like to read the uncut version of Stranger some day, but it takes me 10 or 15 years to getting around to doing things so it will probably be another year or so on that.)
Nova Land is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 04:53 AM   #4
bjornart
Master Poster
 
bjornart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,568
I put in an 8. Some of Heinlein's books are great. Some suffer from too many slide rules. Some suffer from too much preaching.
I've enjoyed all I've read, except Farnham's Freehold, but for some you have to overlook the aforementioned slide rules, or overlook or enjoy incestous and May December romances (That's May 1900 and December 2319.) and oversexed women. And of course, as with all such things, a lot depends on what you've read before, and I read a lot of Heinlein at the start of my SF-reading. I think if I read all of it now, not all of it would get as good a grade.
__________________
Well, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU LIKE TO BELIEVE, GODDAMMIT! I DEAL IN THE FACTS!
-Cecil Adams
bjornart is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 05:46 AM   #5
Brian
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,776
I voted 8. I don't know who I'd give a ten. Maybe Harlan Ellison in his prime.
I think his characters sex fixation is more just a metaphor for enjoying life as much as possible. The incest is just part of one of his reoccuring themes. Tabboo. When Laz has sex with his mom she says, more or less, "the only reason not to have sex with relatives is the chance you might hurt a baby." She's pregnant already so there's no chance of her getting pregnant by her son. So I think Heinlien asks: then why the ick factor?
He does the same with canniblism. A dead human is 150 lbs of meat, we eat cows, so why the ick factor. Of course he's not reccomending incest or canniblism, I think he's just commenting on tabboo.
A slightly harder to find short novel called Orphans of the Sky is one of my favorites. If you're a fan and haven't read it, I highly recomend it.
I liked: Stranger, Stormship Trooper, Time Enough for Love, The Cat that Walked Through Walls, The Puppet Masters, Job, Methusalas Children.
I didn't care for I Will Fear no Evil or To Sail Beyond the Sunset.
I also love the short stories They and All You Zombies.
They gave me one of those great bright feelings you get inside when you hit the high point of a great story.
Come to think of it, I'm going to go read it again.

This rambling brought to you by coffee.

Edited to add: I flow charted All You Zombies for a philosophy class a long time ago. It's perfect, there are no flaws in the time-line. Quite a mind on that guy.
Brian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 02:08 PM   #6
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,605
I always thought most of his books went on a few chapters too long. For instance, I loved Stranger in a Strange land throughout all the "teaching Mike to be Human" stuff, but once he went off to found his own religion it lost me.

Same thing with Number of the Beast - an interesting exploration of the parallel universes idea, but once he got to a point where he was having parties with all the folks from different universes... it was like he'd played the original idea out and was casting around for something to make the book longer because he was paid by the word or something.

Plus, I find his characters tend to be fairly samey. He seems to think there are only two types of person - the "good" type who is libertarian, independant minded, largely unconcerned with the rules of society, lives by his wits in some creative field like writing, etc - and the "bad" type who is basically an unthinking leech, usually a government employee or thief of some kind. It gets old after a while.

All that said, I do enjoy most of his books quite a bit, especially some of the more juvenile stuff. I loved Starship Troopers, Have Space Suit, Starman Jones, and quite liked Stranger in a Strange Land, and Time Enough for Love.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 02:24 PM   #7
SpaceFluffer
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 586
Quote:
Originally posted by Brian
Edited to add: I flow charted All You Zombies for a philosophy class a long time ago. It's perfect, there are no flaws in the time-line. Quite a mind on that guy.
You should check out 'By His Bootstraps', if you haven't already.
SpaceFluffer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 04:20 PM   #8
Brian
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,776
Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceFluffer
You should check out 'By His Bootstraps', if you haven't already.
Just went and read it, great stuff.
Brian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 09:54 PM   #9
epepke
Philosopher
 
epepke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,264
When he is good, he is very, very good, but when he is bad, he is horrid.
__________________
"It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away."
- Godzilla versus Hedora

"There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military."
-DavidByron
epepke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 11:44 PM   #10
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
 
Piscivore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home is wherever I'm with you
Posts: 27,388
Quote:
Originally posted by epepke
When he is good, he is very, very good, but when he is bad, he is horrid.
What would you say his biggest flaw is?

I know what I think it is, I'm interested if anyone else has picked up on it.
__________________
Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV.

"...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen
Piscivore is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2005, 11:59 PM   #11
Ravenwood
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 614
Quote:
Originally posted by Piscivore
What would you say his biggest flaw is?

I know what I think it is, I'm interested if anyone else has picked up on it.
I would like to say that although I love Heinlien's work (mainly his juvenile works, SST being my favorite, followed by Glory Road) I would have to say his WORST book (as in almost as bad as anything written by Joel Rosenberg or Jon Norman) was Number of the Beast...
__________________
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.
-Rush, "Free Will"
Ravenwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2005, 12:57 AM   #12
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,508
Average, with some very good short stories earlier in his career. (He was also quite a good fantasy short story writer.) I feel his later novels showed weaknesses in plotting and characterisation. (See Job: A Comedy of Justice for evidence!)
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2005, 09:04 AM   #13
asthmatic camel
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,510
A definite 2. This man wrote "The Number of the Beast", possibly the worst science fiction novel ever. Unforgivably bad; he didn't even get the science right.

From "The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Science Fiction"...


asthmatic camel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2005, 02:10 PM   #14
balrog666
Eigenmode: Cynic
 
balrog666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally posted by Piscivore
What would you say his biggest flaw is?

I know what I think it is, I'm interested if anyone else has picked up on it.
1. He would go on for a couple of paragraphs or pages about how smart a particular character was ... just before they did something incredibly stupid, thoughtless, or asinine. As soon as you recognized the pattern, you couldn't avoid seeing it every time.



2. Many of his women characters were described as smart, independent, capable ... but almost never behaved that way.



3. Ditto for his men ...
__________________
A person who won't think has no advantage over one who can't think. - (paraphrased) Mark Twain

Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. George Orwell
balrog666 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2005, 04:42 PM   #15
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
 
Piscivore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home is wherever I'm with you
Posts: 27,388
My beef with him is that he loves his characters far too much.

Except for a few minor malcontents and the odd plot device in character's clothing everyone gets along famously.

Whatever conflict there is in his "adult" books are minor, trivial things to the protagonists. A full body transplant is an adventure, not a trauma. The threat of losing one's identity and fortune is an opportunity to prove one's self anew. Armed revolution is a lark to be planned over cocktails rolls in the sack.

He never allows them to fail. There is no tension, no drama, because you know that everything is always going to work out for them. Even if they appear to fail, it turns out that the guru- the older character that is hanging around the younger ones, as above- he saw it coming and The Plan required said failure.

His characters that die are either so minor and/or so underdeveloped that he (and thus we) do not care about them, or they die after finishing their "great work" and pass on quietly at the height of their triumph.

"Tunnel in the Sky" was one of my favorite books, growing up. Notwithstanding the fact that one of the characters shares my somewhat unusual name, there are wheelbarrows more actual drama in that slim volume than in all of "Harsh Mistress."
__________________
Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV.

"...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen
Piscivore is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th January 2005, 01:38 PM   #16
rppa
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 789
His juvenile novels started me on a lifelong addiction to sci-fi, and "Harse Mistress" (read as an adult) remains one of my favorites. His later stuff was irritating and pompous, but a lot of his stories were trailblazers. Despite the flops, I give him an "8" for sentimental reasons, for the high esteem he is held in by all of my favorite sci-fi authors and editors, and for those juveniles that I still remember so fondly.
rppa is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2005, 10:03 AM   #17
bigred
Penultimate Amazing
 
bigred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 18,157
Quote:
Originally posted by Piscivore

His characters that die are either so minor and/or so underdeveloped that he (and thus we) do not care about them, or they die after finishing their "great work" and pass on quietly at the height of their triumph.
I guess you missed one of his greatest works (arguably THE greatest) in "Stranger in a Strange Land" then.

Some of the criticisms listed here are notable, but he is one of the all-time masters of sci fi. As a pure story-teller, he is hardly my favorite, but few could pack a story with such intelligence and interesting ideas as he did (even if you disagree with them, which I certainly did more than once).
bigred is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2005, 10:47 AM   #18
headscratcher4
Philosopher
 
headscratcher4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,776
As a kid, I loved his stuff...really set me off as a Sci-Fi fan, leading to Asimov, Zelazny, etc. I don't think a lot of it holds up particularly well, but there are still fun reads.

I think Door Into Summer is a wonderful time travel novel...lots of fun, if not particularly deep.
__________________
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.

-- Homer Simpson
headscratcher4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st January 2005, 01:41 PM   #19
Piscivore
Smelling fishy
 
Piscivore's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Home is wherever I'm with you
Posts: 27,388
Quote:
Originally posted by bigred
I guess you missed one of his greatest works (arguably THE greatest) in "Stranger in a Strange Land" then.
I have, although admittedly quite a while ago. While it is a lot better than some of his books, most of what I mentioned still applies.

Quote:
Originally posted by bigred
Some of the criticisms listed here are notable, but he is one of the all-time masters of sci fi. As a pure story-teller, he is hardly my favorite, but few could pack a story with such intelligence and interesting ideas as he did (even if you disagree with them, which I certainly did more than once).
He did have a lot of brilliant ideas. I was just getting frustrated by the purile execution of those ideas after reading "Fear no evil" and "Mistress"
__________________
Nobody exists on purpose, nobody belongs anywhere, everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV.

"...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen
Piscivore is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st February 2005, 03:34 PM   #20
bigred
Penultimate Amazing
 
bigred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 18,157
Yeah that was the thing I used to get tired of, admittedly, ie how he just overdid the "whole Heinlein thing" after awhile. Even though he had many great ideas and things to say, how he said them could wear thin.

PS although not a novel, anyone ever read his "universe" book....sort of a large collection of ramblings, predictions, stories about his life, etc.

And what was the book that was really a collection of short stories, some great stuff in there as I recall.
bigred is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd February 2005, 04:48 AM   #21
Soapy Sam
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 28,749
Four.

I agree with much of what has been said.
Early stuff and teenager's novels, original and fun.
Starship Troopers was a good yarn, but the fascist ideology was disturbing.
(c/f Joe Haldeman's "The Forever War").

Number of the Beast is the only novel I ever failed to finish, even though I was stuck on a desert drilling rig with nothing else to read but tech. manuals. I actually threw it away.

The later stuff is dull, self indulgent and apparently paid by the word, hence the increasing thickness.

I do think his effect on other writers may be a more valuable contribution than most of his own work.
Soapy Sam is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd February 2005, 11:07 AM   #22
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,605
Quote:
Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Four.

I agree with much of what has been said.
Early stuff and teenager's novels, original and fun.
Starship Troopers was a good yarn, but the fascist ideology was disturbing.
There's nothing remotely fascist about Starship Troopers. I defy anybody to post a widely accepted definition of fascism and identify it in that book. (Not the massively insulting movie, mind, but the book.)
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2005, 05:26 AM   #23
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,508
Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus
There's nothing remotely fascist about Starship Troopers. I defy anybody to post a widely accepted definition of fascism and identify it in that book. (Not the massively insulting movie, mind, but the book.)
I loved the movie, it was much more subversive then I think it was given credit for.

It does depend on what you mean by fascism of course but given the time that Heinlein grew-up and was writing I'd say the society he describes is a fascist society. Now I could be way off the mark because this is from memory and my copy of the book is packed away on the attic so I can’t quickly check. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
) has it defined as:

exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
From the book it is apparent that any sacrifice is worthwhile to destroy the “enemy”

uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
The armed services and the war are propagandised in the book (look at all the glamorous branches of the armed services the “hero” wants to enlist in before the grunts), then throughout the book the “hero” comes to realise that the “greater” truth that is served by the propaganda. (This also re-enforces point one fact the nation is more important then the individual.)

engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
Exemplified by voting rights in the book and the consequences of not being a “real” citizen.

engages in corporatism,
Don’t think this one is in the book.

By this definition I’d say the book does describe a fascist society.

Also look at the quotes from Mussolini’s entry for the the Italian Encyclopedia definition of fascism (see: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/m...i-fascism.html)

Quote:
…snip…

….
believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

That I would say sums up one of the key messages of the book – adulthood is achieved by facing life and death during war.

Quote:


Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage....
There is no universal suffrage in the book.

Again I would say the society that Heinlein describes can be accurately described using Mussolini’s definition as a “fascist society”.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2005, 05:07 PM   #24
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,605
Quote:
Originally posted by Darat
I loved the movie, it was much more subversive then I think it was given credit for.
That's what I hate most about it. They took a "straight" book and basically subverted and mocked it as much as possible.

Quote:
It does depend on what you mean by fascism of course but given the time that Heinlein grew-up and was writing I'd say the society he describes is a fascist society. Now I could be way off the mark because this is from memory and my copy of the book is packed away on the attic so I can’t quickly check. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
) has it defined as:

exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual,
From the book it is apparent that any sacrifice is worthwhile to destroy the “enemy”
The book does not show this attitude at all. In fact, it specifically states that "destroying" the enemy is not the point of war at all. Consider what Rico's drill sergeant says when one of his recruits wonders why they don't just use atom bombs all the time :

"There can be circumstances when it's just as foolish to hit an enemy city with an H-bomb as it would be to spank a baby with an axe. War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him...but to make him do what you want to do. Not killing...but controlled and purposeful violence. But it's not your business or mine to decide the purpose of the control. It's never a soldier's business to decide when or where or how -- or why -- he fights; that belongs to the statesmen and the generals."

To back this up in practice, the opening action sequence is a raid on a city designed to convince the government in question to switch sides, not to destroy them.

It's true that the war against the bugs seems to be an all-out affair. But even this is never expressley stated as being a goal in itself - rather, it's Humanity responding to a species which is determined to utterly destroy us.

Quote:
uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition,
The armed services and the war are propagandised in the book (look at all the glamorous branches of the armed services the “hero” wants to enlist in before the grunts), then throughout the book the “hero” comes to realise that the “greater” truth that is served by the propaganda. (This also re-enforces point one fact the nation is more important then the individual.)
Sorry, wrong again. The book makes clear over and over that military service is in fact despised by most of the population. Rico's father describes Federal Service thus :

"parasitism, pure and simple. A functionless organ, utterly obsolete, living on the taxpayers... We've outgrown wars. This planet is now peaceful and happy and we enjoy good enough relations with other planets."

Quote:
engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
Exemplified by voting rights in the book and the consequences of not being a “real” citizen.
There is no example of economic regimentation of any kind in the book. Certainly one does not have to serve to be successful in business, as Rico's father is a wealthy businessman without ever having served.

As for social issues, yes the franchise is limited to a fraction of the population, but is this severe regimentation? Any adult - literally anybody - can serve a term if they choose and are able to understand the oath. The franchise is open to any who want it and are prepared to show that they value it.

Quote:
There is no universal suffrage in the book.
There is no universal sufferage anywhere. Are all nations fascist?

Quote:
Again I would say the society that Heinlein describes can be accurately described using Mussolini’s definition as a “fascist society”.
I wouldn't. For instance, it is made clear in the quote I gave earlier that war is not common for the Federation - it's so rare that many consider it obsolete and think there will never be war again. How can the idea that war is essential to reaching adulthood be supported in light of this?

Also recall what the recruiting sergeat tells Rico :

"the facts are that we are getting hard pushed to find things for all the volunteers to do that aren't just glorified KP. You can't all be real military men; we don't need that many and most of the volunteers aren't number-one soldier material anyhow... we've had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will...at the very least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they've paid a high price for it...A term of service is...either real military service, rough and dangerous even in peacetime...or a most unreasonable facsimile thereof."

Federal serivce is not all about rows of soldiers marching off to war. Quite the opposite, while it seems that some sort of military service is the norm, it's clear that many of the Federal Service roles are non-combatant.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2005, 05:35 AM   #25
TriangleMan
Graduate Poster
 
TriangleMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Qatar
Posts: 1,523
I didn't vote because I've only read one of his books Sail Beyond the Sunset. It certainly wasn't what I was expecting and I wasn't all that impressed. I haven't bothered reading any more of his stuff since then but obviously I should get around to reading his other books that people here liked more.
TriangleMan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2005, 10:35 AM   #26
asthmatic camel
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,510
Quote:
Originally posted by TriangleMan
I didn't vote because I've only read one of his books Sail Beyond the Sunset. It certainly wasn't what I was expecting and I wasn't all that impressed. I haven't bothered reading any more of his stuff since then but obviously I should get around to reading his other books that people here liked more.
TriangleMan, I'd certainly advise against reading "Number of the Beast" unless you are in the habit of taking powerful hallucinogenic drugs and viagra. You'd need them.

I know I've mentioned this despicable novel before, but I feel it only correct to advise potential victims of its true nature.

It's AWFUL. Science Fiction meets the Wizard of Oz with gratuitous, tree-hugging, hippy sex thrown in as an afterthought.

I didn't weep when Heinlein shucked off his mortal coil; I was glad that I wouldn't be tempted, in a moment of weakness, to buy or borrow another of his novels.

Sorry for the rant, but it really is that bad. (Unlike Soapy Sam, I had the guts to finish it though )
asthmatic camel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2005, 12:36 PM   #27
Cleopatra
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,063
There must be something really wrong with me because I loved " The number of the beast"....
Cleopatra is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2005, 12:53 PM   #28
corplinx
JREF Kid
 
corplinx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,952
I ran through most of his juvenile books since they were te only interesting looking books in the library at my junior high school.

I picked up a tome called "The Star Beast" and moved on to Will Travel, Tunnel Sky, and other books. His more adult books I could not get into, even as an adult. Job, Stranger, etc. His juvenile fiction captured the awe and wonder I felt about space at the time I read them.

Moon Mistress is one I picked up as an adult and enjoyed though I thought he was a bit hamfisted in his politics.
__________________
Nothing Reportable Here
corplinx is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th February 2005, 09:31 PM   #29
brachet
Scholar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 79
I've read through a fair bit of Heinlein's stuff, and enjoyed enough of it to bitterly regret his passing. Why do people who haven't read much of his work have such strong opinions about it? Is having an opinion and being loud about it really so bad? He wasn't picketing in the streets for crying out loud...he wrote consistently readable books that were entertaining and thought provoking. Yeah, he got preachy, but so what? If you don't like his views, don't spend your money on his books; but if you haven't read them, what are your conclusions based on?
brachet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2005, 01:36 AM   #30
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,508
Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus
That's what I hate most about it. They took a "straight" book and basically subverted and mocked it as much as possible.

Well I would say mocked its simplistic and brutal ideas about the military and society.

You’ve a certain advantage here since I’m relying on memory to back-up my opinion that the book sympathetically portrays a fascist society. (But that should make my job easier as I’m sure I can coerce my memory into agreeing with me whilst you’ll have to stick to facts.)


Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus


The book does not show this attitude at all. In fact, it specifically states that "destroying" the enemy is not the point of war at all. Consider what Rico's drill sergeant says when one of his recruits wonders why they don't just use atom bombs all the time :

"There can be circumstances when it's just as foolish to hit an enemy city with an H-bomb as it would be to spank a baby with an axe. War is not violence and killing, pure and simple; war is controlled violence, for a purpose. The purpose of war is to support your government's decisions by force. The purpose is never to kill the enemy just to be killing him...but to make him do what you want to do. Not killing...but controlled and purposeful violence. But it's not your business or mine to decide the purpose of the control. It's never a soldier's business to decide when or where or how -- or why -- he fights; that belongs to the statesmen and the generals."

To back this up in practice, the opening action sequence is a raid on a city designed to convince the government in question to switch sides, not to destroy them.

It's true that the war against the bugs seems to be an all-out affair. But even this is never expressley stated as being a goal in itself - rather, it's Humanity responding to a species which is determined to utterly destroy us.

This is certainly compatible with Mussolini’s view of fascism e.g.

For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death.

And how does a fascist state “grow the empire”? Well certainly not by peaceful means e.g.:

Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it.


Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus


Sorry, wrong again. The book makes clear over and over that military service is in fact despised by most of the population. Rico's father describes Federal Service thus :

"parasitism, pure and simple. A functionless organ, utterly obsolete, living on the taxpayers... We've outgrown wars. This planet is now peaceful and happy and we enjoy good enough relations with other planets."

Which is precisely one of the key points of a fascist state e.g. the vast majority are not capable of understanding or meaningfully interact with the process of government. So one would expect this sort of attitude to prevail in the non-elite. And despite the character who is a successful business person holding these views he does not have the right to self-determination. The fact that there are characters in a book that speak out against the fascist message of the book is not evidence that the book is not describing a fascist state (and I would say putting forward that it is a “good” state). Especially considering it is the “hero’s” father, after all the book is also a typical Heinlein “coming of age” tale (with all the normal cumbersome and clumsy) Heinlein techniques. Plus factor in that later on in the book the father has realised that war is necessary and good (when he also joins up) and therefore it is shown his opinions earlier were “wrong”.


Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus

There is no example of economic regimentation of any kind in the book. Certainly one does not have to serve to be successful in business, as Rico's father is a wealthy businessman without ever having served.
Which again matches the fascism promoted by Mussolini – he did not nationalise all the industries, corporation is not necessarily precluded by fascism.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus

As for social issues, yes the franchise is limited to a fraction of the population, but is this severe regimentation? Any adult - literally anybody - can serve a term if they choose and are able to understand the oath. The franchise is open to any who want it and are prepared to show that they value it.
This is a very fascist idea e.g. that someone must serve the state to have the right to self-determination rather then being an “inalienable right”.


Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus


I wouldn't. For instance, it is made clear in the quote I gave earlier that war is not common for the Federation - it's so rare that many consider it obsolete and think there will never be war again. How can the idea that war is essential to reaching adulthood be supported in light of this?
Because the Federation has already overwhelmed all its enemies does not mean it that it has become a pacific state. At the moment it meets a new race we see a society that (again) is an embodiment of Mussolini’s ideas e.g. “ It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....


Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus


Also recall what the recruiting sergeat tells Rico :

"the facts are that we are getting hard pushed to find things for all the volunteers to do that aren't just glorified KP. You can't all be real military men; we don't need that many and most of the volunteers aren't number-one soldier material anyhow... we've had to think up a whole list of dirty, nasty, dangerous jobs that will...at the very least make them remember for the rest of their lives that their citizenship is valuable to them because they've paid a high price for it...A term of service is...either real military service, rough and dangerous even in peacetime...or a most unreasonable facsimile thereof."
This supports the idea of an elite and the sergeant is saying quite clearly that (as Mussolini put it) “All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....




Quote:
Originally posted by Seismosaurus


Federal serivce is not all about rows of soldiers marching off to war. Quite the opposite, while it seems that some sort of military service is the norm, it's clear that many of the Federal Service roles are non-combatant.
Yet this seems repudiated by the quote from the sergeant that you’ve reproduced above.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2005, 01:42 AM   #31
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,508
Quote:
Originally posted by brachet
I've read through a fair bit of Heinlein's stuff, and enjoyed enough of it to bitterly regret his passing. Why do people who haven't read much of his work have such strong opinions about it? Is having an opinion and being loud about it really so bad? He wasn't picketing in the streets for crying out loud...he wrote consistently readable books that were entertaining and thought provoking. Yeah, he got preachy, but so what? If you don't like his views, don't spend your money on his books; but if you haven't read them, what are your conclusions based on?
Well I've read (probably) all his work that has been published in book form since the 1960s so I'm slightly aware of his work. I thought that most people in this thread had only passed comment on what they had read? I certainly wouldn’t criticise any author or books without reading them (except the Harry Potter books of course which I have never read but are totally mediocre and derivative. )

I think it is good to read discussions about an author and their work; after all how do you know where to invest your time and money if you don’t read reviews and so on? There are more books published today then any other time and no one person can read them all, well infomred and reasoned discussion and reviews are ways of helping you make your decision.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2005, 09:56 AM   #32
asthmatic camel
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,510
Quote:
Originally posted by Cleopatra
There must be something really wrong with me because I loved " The number of the beast"....
Stop winding me up Cleo, it's impossible to like "The number of the beast", it's dreadful.

Don't just take my word for it...

Quote:
~snip~
Bad taste notwithstanding, this is the kind of excuse to which many long-term Heinlein fans would like to cling. To accept "The Number of the Beast --" as the logical endpoint of a writer's evolution is simply nightmarish. The book is an embarrassment; it is unremittingly awful; it is the first Heinlein novel I've found it a genuine effort to finish, very nearly the first since Rocketship Galileo (1947) that I've put down with a strong resolve not to read, the first I've wanted to shut in a lead-lined cupboard and forget lest it contaminate my liking of (say) The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. My (fairly) humble view is that the book says nothing and says it very badly. "In literature," Auden observed, "vulgarity is preferable to nullity, just as grocer's port is preferable to distilled water." "The Number of the Beast --" manages to combine vulgarity with nullity, giving us a species of denatured grocer's port which makes you thirst for some good honest gruel (E.C. Tubb) or even meths (Harlan Ellison).~snip~
Dave Langford
http://www.ansible.co.uk/writing/numbeast.html
asthmatic camel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2005, 11:43 AM   #33
Skeptic
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 18,312
As I see it, Heinlein has two problems--one real, one not.

Let's tackle the "false" problem first. Heinlein was at his best writing action-packed, "manly" science fiction where an (almost invariably, although not always) male protagonist hero fights against the odds and wins, usually also getting the girl (if applicable). While "getting the girl" is sometimes part of the story, sex never is (and was also usually unpublishable at the time he wrote the stories).

Starship Troopers and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress belong to this category, not to mention his juveniles. So do many of his "future history" short stories--The man who sold the moon, for instance, or Blowups happen, or what is perhaps the best time-travel story ever--no, not All you Zombies, which I find predictable once you "get" it, but By His Bootstraps.

That he is attacked for writing in this style--racist, not feminist enough, fascist, etc.--is, I think, completely besides the point. No, he wasn't a feminist or a civil-rights leaders, but that was typical of men of his time and place. What matters is, those stories work. They are good stories--some outstanding. And to call Heinlein--a navy officer, Annapolis graduate, and WWII veteran--a "fascist" is simply stupid.

But here comes Heinlein's real problem. Starting in the 60s, Heinlein changed he began to make his charaters much more engaged in a). sex; b). talking about their feelings and inner life and turmoils. This is what caused the sharp decline in the quality of his fiction, starting with Time Enough for Love. I don't know what caused him to do so--perhaps the desire to be a "real" novelist who creates "real" characters, a common enough desire with writers.

Sadly, Heinlein simply could not create the sexual or mental life of a character on the page if you pointed a gun to his head--especially not of female characters. He had no idea how to do so. The same is true for Asimov, but the difference is that Asimov knew this and simply did not write sex scenes or internal monologues, let alone make them central to the story or novel. The result is, more often than not, simply embarrasing. Reading Heinlein's sex scenes is like reading really bad porn, and reading his internal monologues (often political) is as boring as reading the latest "college activist group against whatever"'s pamphlet.

The final nail in the coffin came when, on top of all this, he fell in love with Lazarus Long, the libertarian immortal character, and made him the centerpiece of many of his novels, needed or not. "The Cat Who Walk Through Walls", for instance, simply disintegrates in the middle when, after getting the protagonist and his girlfriend into a unsolvable mess, Lazarus Long simply appears out of the blue--for no reason whatever--in a time machine to take them to an alternate universe. Really.

So when he was good, he was GOOD; but when he was bad, he was unreadable.
Skeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2005, 06:48 PM   #34
Seismosaurus
Philosopher
 
Seismosaurus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,605
Quote:
Originally posted by Darat
Well I would say mocked its simplistic and brutal ideas about the military and society.
Which really just means that if you hate the book then the film is good because it hates the book too. Personally I find it kinda surreal to make a movie of a much loved book only to insult it as much as possible. Kinda like making a holocaust-denial version of Schindler's List.

Quote:
You’ve a certain advantage here since I’m relying on memory to back-up my opinion that the book sympathetically portrays a fascist society. (But that should make my job easier as I’m sure I can coerce my memory into agreeing with me whilst you’ll have to stick to facts.)
Always an advantage, making stuff up as you go along. Ask any creationist!

[b][quote]This is certainly compatible with Mussolini’s view of fascism e.g.

For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death.

And how does a fascist state “grow the empire”? Well certainly not by peaceful means e.g.:

Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it.”[b][quote]

But there's nothing in the book to indicate that there has been any violent expansion of the Terran "Empire" (Actually it's a Federation IIRC). There is not one mention of conquered lands, subjagated people. In fact only two alien species are mentioned in the book - the "Skinnies", who are ambivalent at the start and allies later on, and the Bugs who are enemies.


Quote:
Which is precisely one of the key points of a fascist state e.g. the vast majority are not capable of understanding or meaningfully interact with the process of government. So one would expect this sort of attitude to prevail in the non-elite. And despite the character who is a successful business person holding these views he does not have the right to self-determination. The fact that there are characters in a book that speak out against the fascist message of the book is not evidence that the book is not describing a fascist state (and I would say putting forward that it is a “good” state).
But nowhere does it say that the vast majority are not capable of this. Under the system described nobody is forbidden from voting - every single citizen could achieve the franchise if they wish.

Quote:
Especially considering it is the “hero’s” father, after all the book is also a typical Heinlein “coming of age” tale (with all the normal cumbersome and clumsy) Heinlein techniques. Plus factor in that later on in the book the father has realised that war is necessary and good (when he also joins up) and therefore it is shown his opinions earlier were “wrong”.
One individual character may change his opinion on this - and it's hardly unreaslistic to show people lining up behind the government during wartime - but it is made clear that the society as a whole despises the military. In no way could it be called a militaristic society.

Quote:
Which again matches the fascism promoted by Mussolini – he did not nationalise all the industries, corporation is not necessarily precluded by fascism.
Perhaps so, but nor can it be called a defining aspect of fascism can it?

Quote:
This is a very fascist idea e.g. that someone must serve the state to have the right to self-determination rather then being an “inalienable right”.
I would have said that in a fascist state self determination is unobtainable for the vast majority whether they serve or not.

Quote:
Because the Federation has already overwhelmed all its enemies does not mean it that it has become a pacific state. At the moment it meets a new race we see a society that (again) is an embodiment of Mussolini’s ideas e.g. “ It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....
I can't imagine where you get the idea that they have "overwhelmed" their enemies. The only reference to there having been any prior wars in the entire book is the reference that such wars are a distant memory and that peaceful relations are enjoyed with other planets. You assume this means that the other planets have been conquered and pacified, but there is nothing to suggest this in the book.

As for the Bugs, the book is ambiguous about who started the war but it certainly doesn't paint the Federation as encroaching on the Bugs. All it does is note that there was an escalating series of "police actions" and raids, culminating in the Bugs destroying Buenos Ares. There is not so much of a hint that this is a war of conquest by the Federation.

Quote:
This supports the idea of an elite and the sergeant is saying quite clearly that (as Mussolini put it) “All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

Yet this seems repudiated by the quote from the sergeant that you’ve reproduced above.
I don't see how. All he is saying is that the military's role is to apply the required force as dictated by the civilian government - whilst emphasising that overwhelming attack is not at all what war is about. This is a perfectly reasonable description of what the military forces of any present day democracy do. Certainly it's a far cry from the militarised governments typically associated with fascism.
__________________
Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal
She carries beauty in her soul
Seismosaurus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th February 2005, 10:10 PM   #35
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 52,935
I like it a lot better than Budweiser.
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th February 2005, 07:52 AM   #36
voodoochile
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 184
I voted 7 mostly for sentimental reasons. I read every Heinlein novel up to and including Number of the the Beast and The Cat who walks through Walls years ago. Some of it had a profound impact on me at an earlier age and I never really thought about all the incest stuff until much later on.

SIASL struck me as deep and I turned many people on to it, but now that I am older, I cannot see what I liked so much about it.

MIAHM was and remains a great novel, IMO.

He gets pretty preachy and I agree that his heros are too perfect and nothing that feels good is taboo under the right circumstances.

Looking back, I can see why I enjoyed it when I was younger, but I have no desire to re read any of his stuff and the collection of books has gone from my "display shelf" to "I read this stuff" shelf while others have taken his place (Gibson, Card, Simmons, Drake and the everpresent Zelazny who reamains the greates SF writer of all time, IMO).
voodoochile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th March 2005, 08:15 AM   #37
Ossai
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,452
I gave him an 7. Probably more because he’s one of the few authors where I’ve read everything, including Number of the Beast and the collection of romantic short stories as well as Tramp Royale.

All You Zombies is one of my all time favorite short stories. Overall though, I tend to enjoy his juveniles more than his novels, with the exceptions of Stranger and Moon.


[b] Darat/[b]
Quote:
I certainly wouldn’t criticise any author or books without reading them (except the Harry Potter books of course which I have never read but are totally mediocre and derivative ).
I certainly agree with your assessment of Harry Potter, but I’ve read every one of them so far – they’re just brain candy.

Ossai
__________________
The other moral to be drawn from the story [of Job] is that if you lead a good virtuous life, God will urge Satan to kill your family for a bet. Perhaps you should try to sin a little now and then, just to keep your children safe.
- Dr Adequate
www.stopsylvia.com
Ossai is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th March 2005, 09:37 AM   #38
Matabiri
Graduate Poster
 
Matabiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,731
I give him a 7, because I really enjoyed his earlier stuff, particularly the more whimsical things like Door Into Summer and And He Built A Crooked House, and also because The Moon is a Harsh Mistress actually made me think about setting up a new political system from scratch, when I was younger.

Plus, he invented the waterbed.

I agree with Darat about Starship Troopers (and conversely, love the film) and Harry Potter, which I have -tried- to read but cannot get more than a few pages into because of how mind-numbingly badly they written.
__________________
"That's the kind of thing you can't look up on the internet, because it's the kind of thing you get taught at school."
- Ashley Pomeroy
Matabiri is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th March 2005, 07:29 PM   #39
Jeff Corey
New York Skeptic
 
Jeff Corey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,714
I never thought his internal dialogues of adolescent females were very true to life, but what would I know?
The novel that really turned me off was "Farnham's Freehold." I could buy it as a dystopia, but he loved it.
Don't me started on "Stranger..."
Grok this?
Jeff Corey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.