ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , DCCC , democrats

Reply
Old 30th March 2019, 10:27 AM   #161
Red Baron Farms
Illuminator
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4,974
Originally Posted by Random View Post
Yeah, it's way too small. It might have been a good plan twenty-five years ago, but things have progressed too far in the meantime. It's just not aggressive enough.

Of course, some would say that they perfect should not be the enemy of the good, every little bit helps, blah, blah, blah. In practice however, people tend to look at band-aid solutions like this as a solution in and of itself, and use them as an excuse not to make the more radical changes that are actually needed.
One modification and it would be plenty large enough.

Instead of paying the dividend to everyone equally whether they are a source or a sink, a dividend paid to verified long term soil carbon sequestration would be enough to push it over the top.

Right now guys like this are easily sequestering plenty of carbon. They have been yelling it from the rooftops. But the government expects them to do it for free.

Can Soil Microbes Slow Climate Change?
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 30th March 2019 at 10:51 AM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2019, 01:54 PM   #162
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,911
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to keep replying to your posts with no expectation from you to have an opinion on my statements.
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2019, 01:56 PM   #163
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 7,276
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Slight hijack. Has Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ever objected to the "AOC" moniker? It's almost universally how she is referred to, both by detractors and supporters.
I doubt she has - it is her chosen Twitter handle:

https://twitter.com/AOC
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2019, 08:00 PM   #164
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I doubt she has - it is her chosen Twitter handle:

https://twitter.com/AOC
Correct. Why on earth would she object? Branding is just as important in politics as any form of marketing. Both supporters and detractors used "LBJ" and "JFK". But for politicians, particularly neophyte politicians, name recognition is a yuge thing. Totally unsupported by research, I'd say AOC is probably in the top ten readily identifiable names on the current political landscape. If not top ten, then definitely top twenty.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th March 2019, 08:40 PM   #165
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,957
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Correct. Why on earth would she object? Branding is just as important in politics as any form of marketing. Both supporters and detractors used "LBJ" and "JFK". But for politicians, particularly neophyte politicians, name recognition is a yuge thing. Totally unsupported by research, I'd say AOC is probably in the top ten readily identifiable names on the current political landscape. If not top ten, then definitely top twenty.
I've heard that she's the second most recognizable politician after President Trump, at least for U.S. residents. (I kinda doubt that)

Fox News is spending more and more time attacking her since she started pushing her "Green New Deal".
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2019, 06:46 AM   #166
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I've heard that she's the second most recognizable politician after President Trump, at least for U.S. residents. (I kinda doubt that)

Fox News is spending more and more time attacking her since she started pushing her "Green New Deal".
I thought the claim was about the politician who got "second most talked about" status, rather than the second most recognizable? WaPo apparently disagrees with that claim, as it is.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2019, 09:20 AM   #167
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I thought the claim was about the politician who got "second most talked about" status, rather than the second most recognizable? WaPo apparently disagrees with that claim, as it is.
Hilited:What claim are you talking about? We're addressing a slight derail over the past 12 hours today and it's clearly about recognition. It's right there in the several posts above yours. "Most talked about" changes from day to day and week to week. Mueller is probably #2 at present but Jussie took it over for a while.

But we're talking about politicians. And it's all subjective, anyway.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st March 2019, 04:07 PM   #168
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Hilited:What claim are you talking about? We're addressing a slight derail over the past 12 hours today and it's clearly about recognition. It's right there in the several posts above yours. "Most talked about" changes from day to day and week to week. Mueller is probably #2 at present but Jussie took it over for a while.

But we're talking about politicians. And it's all subjective, anyway.
I quite suspect that Venom was misremembering a related claim. In this case, a claim from Time magazine.

Quote:
This is the daily reality for America’s newest human Rorschach test. Wonder Woman of the left, Wicked Witch of the right, Ocasio-Cortez has become the second most talked-about politician in America, after the President of the United States.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 01:50 PM   #169
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,468
The hubbub about this has died down, but here's an example of what is happening:

Quote:
The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee's vendor policy is already putting the squeeze on one of the most prominent incumbent challengers: Marie Newman, who is taking a second run at moderate Rep. Dan Lipinski in IL-03.

NEWMAN VS. DCCC — The DCCC's announcement that it would not do business with consultants or vendors who work for candidates challenging sitting members is already reverberating through one of the most closely watched primaries of 2020, still 11 months away. Newman told Campaign Pro’s Laura Barrón-López that a consultant dropped her campaign as recently as Wednesday due to DCCC chair Cheri Bustos' (Ill.) new enforcement of what was considered a long-unwritten rule.

“I've had four consultants leave the campaign,” Newman said. “We've now had two mail firms say that they couldn't work with us because of the DCCC issue, and then a [communications] group, a compliance group and several pollsters.” Consultants who planned to work with Newman said that the DCCC delivered the warning in the nicest terms possible — but that it was a very clear threat to their ability to do business with the DCCC.
Lipinski's seat seems safe (D); Hillary won the district by 15 percentage points in 2016, and Lipinski's done plenty to rile the Democratic base: he's pro-life, opposed gay marriage and declined to endorse Obama for reelection in 2016.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 02:11 PM   #170
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,957
Doubling down on alienating their base.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 08:47 PM   #171
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The hubbub about this has died down, but here's an example of what is happening:



Lipinski's seat seems safe (D); Hillary won the district by 15 percentage points in 2016, and Lipinski's done plenty to rile the Democratic base: he's pro-life, opposed gay marriage and declined to endorse Obama for reelection in 2016.
It's a safe Dem seat. Lipinski is far from safe, though.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes on the DCCC intransigence. Lipinski is going to negate the DCCC ruling's effect on this race, though, because they will give so much free coverage to Newman that she'll have advertising agencies lining up to help her out... even agencies that haven't yet put a toe into political campaigning.

Lipinski is the only Illinois Dem who voted against ACA. He's a carpetbagger, airlifted into an open seat by his daddy with the blessing of the Daley cohorts downtown.

He's the perfect poster boy to get this DCCC policy changed. The Bernie and AOC factions have chosen well if this is the cross they wish to die on. The DCCC should commit to holding Democratic seats FOR THE PARTY, not for the incumbent. I predict Newman will mobilize enough support that she'll win the primary. Lipinski, like his dad, is part of the old guard blue dog faction and should change parties.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th April 2019, 08:55 PM   #172
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Doubling down on alienating their base.
I have a friend who's involved in ward politics in lower Manhattan. She says this whole DCCC thing was a miscalculation. There's been an unwritten policy on this for years. Bringing it out in the open was a money-raising ploy for the DCCC. (They get a whole lot of their funding during and in the aftermath of congressional elections every two years. They wanted the current batch of winners to remember how wonderful they are and help raise funds via the DCCC channel.)

In short, the DCCC doesn't give a rat's ass about the incumbents. The DCCC cares about enriching the DCCC so they maintain their sway. The formalization of this existing policy was a fund-raising letter to the rookies on the hill. "Now that you're part of the in group, you need to support us because we'll support you since you won. No hard feelings and all that."
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 09:41 PM   #173
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,468
Is AOC targeting POC?

Quote:
Congressional Black Caucus members are furious at Justice Democrats, accusing the outside progressive group aligned with firebrand Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) of trying to oust lawmakers of color, specifically African American lawmakers.

Justice Democrats is backing primary challengers to eight-term Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-Texas), a Hispanic Caucus member, and 10-term Rep. Wm. Lacy Clay (D-Mo.), a member of the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC). The insurgent group also made noise this year about challenging Democratic Caucus Chairman Hakeem Jeffries (D-N.Y.), a CBC member seen as the heir apparent to Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.).
To a certain extent the CBC is playing the race card here from the bottom of the deck, as Cuellar's challenger is Hispanic, while Clay's is black herself. Hence even if the challengers win, neither group would lose a member. And Cuellar is probably a lot more conservative than his district, which is safe. But Clay is about as liberal as you can get.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 10:47 PM   #174
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Is AOC targeting POC?



To a certain extent the CBC is playing the race card here from the bottom of the deck, as Cuellar's challenger is Hispanic, while Clay's is black herself. Hence even if the challengers win, neither group would lose a member. And Cuellar is probably a lot more conservative than his district, which is safe. But Clay is about as liberal as you can get.
SSDD

Incumbents trying to protect members of their club.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 07:57 AM   #175
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,128
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Is AOC targeting POC?







To a certain extent the CBC is playing the race card here from the bottom of the deck, as Cuellar's challenger is Hispanic, while Clay's is black herself. Hence even if the challengers win, neither group would lose a member. And Cuellar is probably a lot more conservative than his district, which is safe. But Clay is about as liberal as you can get.
Clay, who sits on the Financial Committee. This usually precludes other assignments, but he also sits on Health Care, Benefits, and Admin Policy under the Oversight Committee

He's an inside player.

ETA: for example, recently voted against restricting the President from deploying military forces to the border in the latest National Defense Authorization Act.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 14th July 2019 at 08:05 AM.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 08:35 AM   #176
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,457
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
SSDD

Incumbents trying to protect members of their club.
Hate to say it, but yeah. A lot of these folks have run uncontested for a long time now, and since the GOP at best ignores nonwhite people, and at worst promises to use state violence against them, they've been sitting safe for a bit too long. Some challengers would do their districts well. I'd consider this a clumsy opening salvo, and that's about it.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 09:46 AM   #177
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,128
Interesting that it's "AOC" launching primaries. Not Justice Democrats, not Brand New Congress, or OurRevoultion, or Indivisible.

Nope, put a face of a member of your own party up there and start the hippy punching.

We're 16 months out, barely even in Primary season and the party is running at full speed away from anything that smells progressive.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 11:49 AM   #178
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Interesting that it's "AOC" launching primaries. Not Justice Democrats, not Brand New Congress, or OurRevoultion, or Indivisible.

Nope, put a face of a member of your own party up there and start the hippy punching.

We're 16 months out, barely even in Primary season and the party is running at full speed away from anything that smells progressive.
The "establishment" has been running full speed away from anything that smells progressive for a long time now, I think. It's a whole bunch of the actual people who have been pushing to make it more. In the wake of Trump, the people were successful and, well, the pushback has been constant throughout.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 11:53 AM   #179
Allen773
Graduate Poster
 
Allen773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cali Four Neea
Posts: 1,108
This is stupid.
Allen773 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 11:58 AM   #180
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 23,034
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Is AOC targeting POC?
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
SSDD

"Sir, seeing as the VP is such a VIP shouldn't we keep the PC on the QC? Because if it leaks into the VC he could end up MIA and then we'd all be put on KP."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 12:12 PM   #181
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 23,034
I'm still totally lost on the narrative here.

Okay so the Democratic Party hasn't been Progressive enough and that somehow drove voters to... the far right.

So if the "face" of the Democratic Party was more AOC and less Nancy Pelosi the far right voters would be more attracted to the Democratic Party.

Is "Sour grapes, my really progressive candidate didn't get the nom so I'm either going to just not vote for the more mainstream Democratic candidate, not vote at all, or vote for the cartoonishly evil racist the other party put up" really the demographic that people thinks is going swing 2020?

Or hell I'm stop speaking in hypotheticals. Does anyone here on this board who would vote for a progressive Democratic nominee if they got the nomination, plan on if a mainstream Democrat gets the nomination instead not voting, voting for Trump, or voting for the progressive candidate instead of the "official" Democratic nominee in 2020?

Where are all these "Super-progressive or nothing" voters who are going jump in the ice bath if the Jacuzzi is only "mostly warm" instead of "blazing hot?"
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #182
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm still totally lost on the narrative here.

Okay so the Democratic Party hasn't been Progressive enough and that somehow drove voters to... the far right.

So if the "face" of the Democratic Party was more AOC and less Nancy Pelosi the far right voters would be more attracted to the Democratic Party.

Is "Sour grapes, my really progressive candidate didn't get the nom so I'm either going to just not vote for the more mainstream Democratic candidate, not vote at all, or vote for the cartoonishly evil racist the other party put up" really the demographic that people thinks is going swing 2020?
What?

Are you complaining about some of the "Bernie Bros" and the like with caricatures?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Or hell I'm stop speaking in hypotheticals. Does anyone here on this board who would vote for a progressive Democratic nominee if they got the nomination, plan on if a mainstream Democrat gets the nomination instead not voting, voting for Trump, or voting for the progressive candidate instead of the "official" Democratic nominee in 2020?

Where are all these "Super-progressive or nothing" voters who are going jump in the ice bath if the Jacuzzi is only "mostly warm" instead of "blazing hot?"
Not so sure about "Super-progressive or nothing," but... one of the drivers in voter apathy is people believing the claims that Democrats and Republicans just aren't actually different in particularly meaningful ways, regardless of the evidence to the contrary. They've taken to heart half-truths like "All politicians are corrupt" and similar lies/false equivalences. These people can be found across the political spectrum, but, if accepted, likely affects participation more the more liberal the group is, given the underlying differences in values between liberals and conservatives.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 01:15 PM   #183
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 23,034
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
What?

Are you complaining about some of the "Bernie Bros" and the like with caricatures?
I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm looking for context and trying to understand what exactly the Democratic Party is starting to fracture over at... pretty much literally the lest opportune time to do that.

We have X number of Democratic supporting traditional, mainstream Democrats. We have Y number of Democrats supporting more progressive candidates.

So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?

The general tone seems to be we'll "lose" (either to apathy, split votes, or full on lane crossing) more voters if we don't back a progressive candidate, but even if it's the other way around the same question needs to be asked.

I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 02:09 PM   #184
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,743
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I want to hear from them.
You already have in prior threads, and all you did was argue and votesplain why they should vote for what they don't want because you think it makes sense to do so.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 02:31 PM   #185
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,896
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm looking for context and trying to understand what exactly the Democratic Party is starting to fracture over at... pretty much literally the lest opportune time to do that.
Hmm? Starting to fracture? The Democratic Party has been something of a disparate mess, aka "Big Tent" party for a long time. I didn't think that this was anything new. I would dare to say that it's probably actually more unified these days with the increase in party polarization than it used to be.

As for some of the visibility... it may be worth remembering that the MSM is largely slightly right-wing, given the directions of the owners, even if the reporters themselves are more likely to lean a bit to the left... and that things like Warren's progressive push to break up some of the really big corporations poses a threat to them, which has led to them playing up the divisions and trying to shape things a bit back to their favor. That includes playing up this particular division and taking a whole lot of swipes at progressives where they think they can get away with it and playing up, for example, Biden, by quite a lot even long before he announced his run and having remarkably different reactions to say, a Red Wave and a Blue Wave in Congressperson selection. Red Wave - Mandate of the People! Mandate of the People! Mandate of the People! Blue Wave with a distinctly Progressive flavor - Oh, that happened? Moving on.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We have X number of Democratic supporting traditional, mainstream Democrats. We have Y number of Democrats supporting more progressive candidates.

So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?

The general tone seems to be we'll "lose" (either to apathy, split votes, or full on lane crossing) more voters if we don't back a progressive candidate, but even if it's the other way around the same question needs to be asked.
This actually is a harder question. There's a lot of people doing what people tend to do... drawing favorable conclusions to their position based on questionable data and frequently using that to combat other conclusions based on questionable data. This is further complicated by trolls, US and foreign, trying to chip in and get candidates that they prefer selected, whether to make Trump more likely to win or to limit the meaningfulness of the win. There's a Republican push to get Marianne qualified for the next debate with lots and lots of $1 donations, for example, and there's Gravel being pushed by anarchists, of course, to name a couple of the open troll moves, as well as a hoard of right-winger advice columns to the Democrats to go right and maybe, just maybe, they'll deign to give their votes to the Democrats. Well, maybe not them, but people like them. Given MSM, center left and further voices get very little attention much of the time. Either way, there's usually the implicit assumption that "independent" means "center," rather than "across the political spectrum, just not officially Democrat or Republican."


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.
Hmm. That depends a bit on who and why. All of the candidates will have people who don't want to vote for them for one reason or another. It sounds more like you're asking about the few who go "my candidate or protest vote," like a chunk of the "Bernie Bros" famously did... and the situation now isn't quite the same as it was in 2015/2016, so that group's likely not quite as fixed on him. To delve into some of the underlying reasons for those Bernie Bros, though... There's a lot of people who want substantial change for the better - away from the current trends of, well, them being effectively screwed over, bit by bit, as rich people and the corporations associated with them profit off them more and more, then casually discard them. With the government clearly working to help the rich people more and more and helping them less and less. If a Democrat's promising status quo, that's not actually good for them, which makes it more likely that they become apathetic or engage in behavior that would harm themselves. For people who are leery of each of the rest, there are plenty of reason. Wall Street democrats might be forced to choose between taking a hit to their short-term profits and general political influence when faced with Warren or Bernie or voting for Trump for the sake of short-term checkbook balances, to poke at another side of things, though that's not specifically the "My candidate or else!" that you're asking for.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 14th July 2019 at 02:41 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 03:05 PM   #186
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,284
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?
4. Which choice will lead to a Democrat party that might actually finally start standing up to the Republicans instead of continuing to let the Republicans get away with anything & everything all the time?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.
There may be very few, even practically none, but they also aren't the real question for a general election. The real question in general elections is who are the people who don't often vote at all but might sometimes if given the motivation they need.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 03:17 PM   #187
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,957
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not "complaining" about anything. I'm looking for context and trying to understand what exactly the Democratic Party is starting to fracture over at... pretty much literally the lest opportune time to do that.

We have X number of Democratic supporting traditional, mainstream Democrats. We have Y number of Democrats supporting more progressive candidates.

So if the Dems nominate, we'll use Pelosi as an example, this will alienate, to some degree, the "Progressive Democrats."

If they nominate Harris Sanders, again just as a Ur example, this will alienate the more mainstream democrats.

1. Which choice will lead to more voters just staying home?
2. Which choice will lead to more voters switching sides totally to the Republican?
3. Which choice has the most risk of splitting the vote between two candidates?

The general tone seems to be we'll "lose" (either to apathy, split votes, or full on lane crossing) more voters if we don't back a progressive candidate, but even if it's the other way around the same question needs to be asked.

I'm asking the people who are going to vote Democrat only if their candidate(s) of choice get the nomination talk about that. I think it's good information to have.

Who are these people who are going to stay home, vote for Trump, or vote for a non-nominated candidate and what are their reasoning? I want to hear from them.
Mainstream democrats won't sit it out because Harris is leading.

But some progressives honestly might.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 04:20 AM   #188
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,911
Trump has unified the Democrat Party when they couldn't do it themselves
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 05:21 AM   #189
IsThisTheLife
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 464
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because she can recognize a hint when it drops on her head at terminal velocity.
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.
__________________
"There is no sin except stupidity."
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 05:25 AM   #190
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 53,743
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.
Perhaps you shouldn't respond to old posts without reading for context. Doubly ironic in this particular case.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 07:03 AM   #191
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 88,437
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing.
By whom?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 07:51 AM   #192
Venom
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 3,957
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.
She wants the wars to stop.

Support her.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 07:54 AM   #193
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,369
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
By whom?
The Fox News crowd and those gushing over Trump’s latest “go back to your own country, scary minority women” tweet.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 07:56 AM   #194
Delphic Oracle
Illuminator
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 4,128
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.
Bartender is what you know about her, therefore that is literally all she has ever done in life.



Quote:
But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.
I smell projection.
Delphic Oracle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 08:00 AM   #195
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,767
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.

But her hawtness as a bosomy young woman, and the apparent egoism and lack of self-doubt that this has conferred her has got her quite a long way. So far.
Found your problem, it appears you're stuck in 1955. You should see all the neat things women can do when you give them a pair of shoes!
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 08:15 AM   #196
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,369
Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
She isn't called "Occasional-Cortex" for nothing. There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did, and quite a lot in her public declamations to indicate she isn't.
Well, there are those degrees in International Relations and Economics. But you forgot about those, I'm sure. I'm certain you're still steaming that the video of her dancing in a school video didn't crush her the way you hoped.

Since arriving, she has proposed and worked on multiple bills, even seeking to work on one with Ted Cruz, not a man known for agreeing with socialists. Of course, since those bills weren't giving billionaires tax breaks or gutting the ACA you think they must be dumb.

She's managed to get Fox News to go absolutely psychotic on her. This took little more than being elected and being slightly progressive. They cannot go a day without mentioning her, sometimes not even an hour.

During her attendance on various committees she has asked critical questions, especially of Michael Cohen. During the same appearances the various GOP sycophants stumbled and tripped over themselves trying to show their loyalty to Trump.

She's a hell of a lot more competent than the racist, psychotic, incompetent, failed businessman in the White House.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 10:02 AM   #197
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,715
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Well, there are those degrees in International Relations and Economics.
I'm not sure why people are impressed with degrees. They shouldn't be. At the undergraduate level it mostly just takes money (your own or borrowed) to get one. Even at the graduate level, outside of competence in very specific technical fields it's mostly just an indicator of persistence, which has some value but not all that much. The flip side of this is that the lack of a degree doesn't indicate much either.

And I'm not saying this to bash AOC. Merely that her degrees don't tell us what her competence is. Different people have come to very different conclusions about what her talents are, and I'm not interested in getting into that fight, but nobody's opinion in either direction is actually based on her degrees.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 10:06 AM   #198
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,369
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not sure why people are impressed with degrees. They shouldn't be. At the undergraduate level it mostly just takes money (your own or borrowed) to get one. Even at the graduate level, outside of competence in very specific technical fields it's mostly just an indicator of persistence, which has some value but not all that much. The flip side of this is that the lack of a degree doesn't indicate much either.
I am certain that you are discussing that Wharton Degree that Trump would tell everyone about every 1.26 seconds.

Quote:
And I'm not saying this to bash AOC. Merely that her degrees don't tell us what her competence is. Different people have come to very different conclusions about what her talents are, and I'm not interested in getting into that fight, but nobody's opinion in either direction is actually based on her degrees.
The comment was that she had zero qualifications besides being a bartender. So how should I take this as anything other than an AOC bashing?

Seriously, do you want a building designed by an 'architect' without a degree? Botany done by someone who just toyed with some plants in their backyard? Do you trust a cosmological model designed by someone without any work in astronomy or physics?

This is a really, really dumb comment and I have to wonder if you would have said it in a thread that was not about a Democrat.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 10:36 AM   #199
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 45,715
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I am certain that you are discussing that Wharton Degree that Trump would tell everyone about every 1.26 seconds.
It applies to that too, yes. And again, nobody actually voted for or against Trump on the basis of his degree. People aren't voting for him because of his degree, and no possible degree would change the mind of anyone voting against him. The only point of such arguments is to try to make supporters of the other side look bad, but neither side actually cares. The debate is full of sound and fury, but it signifies nothing.

Quote:
The comment was that she had zero qualifications besides being a bartender. So how should I take this as anything other than an AOC bashing?
Of course it's AOC bashing. I'm not suggesting you take it any other way. I'm saying that any decent argument in favor of her qualifications isn't going to rely on her degrees. And maybe you can make one, since she wasn't only a bar tender before getting elected. But the degree just doesn't mean much.

Quote:
Seriously, do you want a building designed by an 'architect' without a degree?
What part of "competence in very specific technical fields" did you not understand? Plus, of course, the safety of a building is largely the responsibility of an engineer, not an architect.

Quote:
This is a really, really dumb comment
Anything can be dumb if you deliberately misunderstand it.

Quote:
and I have to wonder if you would have said it in a thread that was not about a Democrat.
I'll say it in any thread where someone tries to justify the qualifications of a politician on the basis of their degree. And yet again, are you seriously trying to say that AOC's degree is why you support her? That you wouldn't support her if everything else about her was the same but she didn't have that degree? Wouldn't that be pretty stupid?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th July 2019, 11:25 AM   #200
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,369
OK, so when someone comes in with "There's nothing in her CV to indicate she's qualified for anything beyond the bar-work she once did"

And the reply comes that she had two degrees that are actually quite relevant to government work. (I did fail to mention all her local community work)

So, all of a sudden, "Degrees don't count!!"

Gotcha.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:42 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.