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Tags gun laws , Washington politics

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Old 13th February 2018, 06:21 PM   #121
Ranb
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
From your link;
Quote:
Time and time again I see people at the range with Bumpfire stocks blasting through ammo... no targets just shooting at the berm. Normally I see a group size equivalent to a family sedan, and wonder why people buy them.
Okay, that is something. Still no idea what distance for the family sedan group size.

Quote:
I shot a group roughly double the size of an identical AR15 in full auto.
This is as precise as the article gets when describing the accuracy of an ar-15 with their bump stock. The video link doesn't work.

The article was a stupid piece of fluff with very little detail on this heavy $500 metal accessory. I've seen it as low as $300 elsewhere, but no one is crowing about how accurate an ar-15 is when bumped fired with the stock installed. Over 600 words in the article and it's just written to rip off any chump who wants to waste ammo.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A moment ago you were preaching self righteously about preventing mass murder. Now you've walked it back to false advertising.
And once again it seems he is confusing his opinion with evidence. This is my shocked face.

Last edited by Ranb; 13th February 2018 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 13th February 2018, 07:28 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A moment ago you were preaching self righteously about preventing mass murder. Now you've walked it back to false advertising.
Either we need to protect people from these weapons of mass destruction because they increase fire rate without compromising accuracy OR protect consumers because of false advertisement. Either way, bump stocks should be illegal because they are immoral.
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:07 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Either we need to protect people from these weapons of mass destruction
A bump fire semi-auto rifle is not a WMD; not by any rational person's definition anyway.

Quote:
because they increase fire rate without compromising accuracy
They do degrade accuracy, compared to aimed semi-auto fire.

Quote:
OR protect consumers because of false advertisement.
Can you show me an example of the false advertisement? Of course not, it exists only in your imagination.

Quote:
Either way, bump stocks should be illegal because they are immoral.
Only people are immoral. All of your arguments in this thread are sorely lacking in substance to say the least.

Last edited by Ranb; 13th February 2018 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 13th February 2018, 09:44 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
A bump fire semi-auto rifle is not a WMD; not by any rational person's definition anyway.
Sorry, I meant mass murder. See Las Vegas Shooting 2017 for an example.

Quote:

They do degrade accuracy, compared to aimed semi-auto fire.
Not according to Slide Fire, at least for their particular product.

Quote:

Can you show me an example of the false advertisement? Of course not, it exists only in your imagination.
I'm not claiming it, YOU are: "So you're really going to believe Slide Fire when they claim using bump fire techniques doesn't reduce accuracy? If they claim this, then they think that you, I and anyone else reading their claim is a complete idiot."



So, which is it? Slide Lock allows a person a higher rate of fire without compromising accuracy OR they are misleading with their advertisement? Please show your work.
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:36 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Protip: Full auto isn't very accurate. Being less accurate than full auto isn't an endorsement.
How accurate do you have to be to hit a crowd?
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:41 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
How accurate do you have to be to hit a crowd?
Depends on size, distance, firing platform, etc.
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Old 14th February 2018, 02:42 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
How accurate do you have to be to hit a crowd?
Not very. See Las Vegas Shooting 2017 as an example.
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Old 14th February 2018, 06:40 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
So, which is it? Slide Lock allows a person a higher rate of fire without compromising accuracy OR they are misleading with their advertisement? Please show your work.
Unless we know more about how they define "compromising accuracy", then I don't think Slidefire can be held accountable for what you call false advertising. I think it's up to you to purchase an ar-15 with one of their bump stocks to prove of disprove their claims. Then you can sue them for false advertising.

I think you will settle for blowing smoke on the forum instead of taking any action you think could save lives.
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Old 14th February 2018, 06:49 AM   #129
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I think I'll just settle for the banning of the bump stock and not take your word for it that it makes the weapon less effective.
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Old 14th February 2018, 06:59 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I think I'll just settle for the banning of the bump stock and not take your word for it that it makes the weapon less effective.
I suppose I'm wasting my time again asking where I made this claim that a bump stock makes a gun less effective? I know it can increase rate of fire. But I also know unless more of those bullets hit the target, increasing rates of fire does not make it more effective.

Shooting at a very large target is one case where a bump fire stock can make a rifle more effective; I've stated this before.

But then this doesn't fit in your world were you just make up stuff and call it evidence or claim someone said something but you can't be bothered to use the quote function.
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Old 14th February 2018, 06:59 AM   #131
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I was a bit surprised at the autopsy reports from Las Vegas. Many of the victims had been hit more than once. Some had been hit three times. I wasn't expecting that.

I don't know if this is because of accuracy or large numbers of bullets flying or just random chance, or what.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:02 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I suppose I'm wasting my time again asking where I made this claim that a bump stock makes a gun less effective? I know it can increase rate of fire. But I also know unless more of those bullets hit the target, increasing rates of fire does not make it more effective.

Shooting at a very large target is one case where a bump fire stock can make a rifle more effective; I've stated this before.

But then this doesn't fit in your world were you just make up stuff and call it evidence or claim someone said something but you can't be bothered to use the quote function.
A crowded concert is a large target. The bump stock made the rifle more effective at killing more people. There is a market for bump stocks because they make the weapon more effective at hitting large targets with more bullets in a smaller amount of time.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:03 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I was a bit surprised at the autopsy reports from Las Vegas. Many of the victims had been hit more than once. Some had been hit three times. I wasn't expecting that.

I don't know if this is because of accuracy or large numbers of bullets flying or just random chance, or what.
I suspect it was random. At 1200 feet with a bump fired rifle the shooter can't really pick out one person in the crowd and expect to inflict multiple wounds.

Got a link to those reports?

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
A crowded concert is a large target. The bump stock made the rifle more effective at killing more people.
You repeated what I said in my post. So?

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
There is a market for bump stocks because they make the weapon more effective at hitting large targets with more bullets in a smaller amount of time.
The way I've seen them advertised implies they're merely good for sending large amounts of ammo downrange. No one is really bragging about how well they are at hitting the target other than saying weasel words like "accuracy not compromised" or "2x the group size as full auto". If you were a gun enthusiast perhaps you understand that these are code words for "accuracy sucks but shooting fast is fun".

Last edited by Ranb; 14th February 2018 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:04 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I suspect it was random. At 1200 feet with a bump fired rifle the shooter can't really pick out one person in the crowd and expect to inflict multiple wounds.

Got a link to those reports?
Of course it was random. That's the point of spraying large amounts of bullets into a crowd.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:21 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I suspect it was random. At 1200 feet with a bump fired rifle the shooter can't really pick out one person in the crowd and expect to inflict multiple wounds.

Got a link to those reports?
Can't yet find where I read that some had been hit three times...

Originally Posted by Las Vegas Review-Journal
Most of those killed at the Route 91 Harvest festival died from a single gunshot wound, according to the coronerís office. Six died from multiple wounds...

...Jennifer Parks, a 36-year-old kindergarten teacher from Palmdale, California, died from multiple gunshot wounds to the head...
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/...vegas-shooting
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Old 14th February 2018, 10:08 AM   #136
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http://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?Bi...5992&Year=2017
The bill was scheduled for an executive hearing today. It says no action was taken; it is scheduled now for the 14th.
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Old 14th February 2018, 07:23 PM   #137
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Multiple hits on a small fraction of the victims in LV is explainable as Poisson statistics. A truly random pattern will have localized clumpings that at first glance would seem impossibly unlikely. That's one way in which fakers of data are caught out; their artificially constructed sample is too smoothly 'uniform' in its distribution. Real randomness is more irregularly haphazard.
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Old 15th February 2018, 10:13 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
They do degrade accuracy, compared to aimed semi-auto fire.
.
full auto machine guns degrade accuracy compared to semi auto fire

the machine pistol bstrong posted earlier would be even more inaccurate

comparing the accuracy to semi auto is pretty irrelevant
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I AGREE


in this video he says accuracy isnt too bad

but again targeting large groups of people accuracy comes second to faster rate of fire
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Old 15th February 2018, 10:47 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
but again targeting large groups of people accuracy comes second to faster rate of fire
Again, it actually depends on the size of the group, the density of the group, the distance to the group, and the stability of the firing platform. Among other things.

Outside of storming a trenchful of enemy soldiers at close range, there's probably not that many scenarios where full auto would be that much more effective than semi auto fire.

Last edited by theprestige; 15th February 2018 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 15th February 2018, 11:18 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
full auto machine guns degrade accuracy compared to semi auto fire

the machine pistol bstrong posted earlier would be even more inaccurate

comparing the accuracy to semi auto is pretty irrelevant
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I AGREE


in this video he says accuracy isnt too bad

but again targeting large groups of people accuracy comes second to faster rate of fire
Not necessarily. The British GPMG (based on the FN-MAG) has a well known splash pattern when fired in indirect role from the tripod, and is used when planning indirect fire tasks.

In direct role, yeah, I totally agree. Rock-and-roll on auto is only useful for suppressive fire.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:45 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Again, it actually depends on the size of the group, the density of the group, the distance to the group, and the stability of the firing platform. Among other things.
Like for, say, a mass of people at a concert......
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:55 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Not necessarily. The British GPMG (based on the FN-MAG) has a well known splash pattern when fired in indirect role from the tripod, and is used when planning indirect fire tasks.

In direct role, yeah, I totally agree. Rock-and-roll on auto is only useful for suppressive fire.
We call it the beaten zone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_fire_(weaponry)

Beaten zone is a concept in indirect infantry small arms fire, specifically machine guns. It describes the area between the "first catch" and the "last graze" of a bullet's trajectory. At the first of these points, a bullet will hit a standing man in the head, at the last of these points, as the bullet drops, it will hit a standing man in the feet. Anyone standing within the beaten zone will be hit somewhere from head to foot.

The concept works best as part of a static defence with the area covered by a position plotted out beforehand. Usually the machine guns will be mounted on a tripod and indirect fire sights (such as a dial sight) fitted in addition to, or instead of, direct fire ones. Fire can then be called in by spotters to engage specific points in the guns' field of fire, even if out of sight of the machine gunners.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:58 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
full auto machine guns degrade accuracy compared to semi auto fire

the machine pistol bstrong posted earlier would be even more inaccurate

comparing the accuracy to semi auto is pretty irrelevant
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I AGREE


in this video he says accuracy isnt too bad

but again targeting large groups of people accuracy comes second to faster rate of fire
The AK and AR In the video are semi-auto short-barreled rifles subject to NFA registration.

A properly assembled SBR can provide MOA accuracy to 100 yds/m in trained hands from a rest or supported fire position.
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Old 15th February 2018, 06:58 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Like for, say, a mass of people at a concert......
How far away are you? How many people are there? How densely are they packed? How stable is your firing platform? Etc.

People like slide fire for the same reason people hate it: Because they like the *idea* of "full auto" more than they like actually considering the practical applications and limitations of "full auto".
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:41 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How far away are you? How many people are there? How densely are they packed? How stable is your firing platform? Etc.

People like slide fire for the same reason people hate it: Because they like the *idea* of "full auto" more than they like actually considering the practical applications and limitations of "full auto".
People like slide fire because they fantasize about killing lots of people.
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:51 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
People like slide fire because they fantasize about killing lots of people.
And people hate slide fire for the same reason.
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Old 15th February 2018, 07:59 PM   #147
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Lunatic criminals who mass or spree murder don't use bump fire stocks because they are skeptical that it will increase the number of dead or injured. They are critical thinkers using rationality and reason.
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:14 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Lunatic criminals who mass or spree murder don't use bump fire stocks because they are skeptical that it will increase the number of dead or injured. They are critical thinkers using rationality and reason.
You seem to be caught up in your own self contradictory strawman. Do you not have a media cite that you believe sheds some light on the discussion?
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Old 15th February 2018, 08:58 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You seem to be caught up in your own self contradictory strawman. Do you not have a media cite that you believe sheds some light on the discussion?
I had a bunch of quotes from mass murderers explaining why they didn't use bump stocks but I lost the link.
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:11 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
comparing the accuracy to semi auto is pretty irrelevant
If I want to hit the target (I don't shoot at an n8 acre crowd) I use semi-auto.

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in this video he says accuracy isnt too bad
I say his accuracy sucked.

Even the Brady Campaign claimed the semi-auto AR-15 was more dangerous than the full auto M-16. But I think they're full of crap too.
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:13 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
People like slide fire because they fantasize about killing lots of people.
People like martial arts because they want to kill the first person they believe they can get away with killing.
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:13 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
People like slide fire because they fantasize about killing lots of people.
Is this another one of your "facts" that you made up? Don't you have anything better to build your arguments on?
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:36 PM   #153
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Speaking of straw men, is this thing going to chooch or R we just shootin' blanks with R dicks in R hands? Coz' I have my doubts. Tempest in Teapot an' all that.

Don't worry, Washin'tonians I have faith in youse!
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Old 15th February 2018, 09:45 PM   #154
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Not sure what chooch means in this case.....

No update so far this evening in the WA House Judiciary Committee.

http://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?Bi...5992&Year=2017
Quote:
IN THE HOUSE
Jan 29
First reading, referred to Judiciary (Not Officially read and referred until adoption of Introduction report).
Feb 9
Public hearing in the House Committee on Judiciary at 8:00 AM. (Committee Materials)
Feb 14
Executive session scheduled, but no action was taken in the House Committee on Judiciary at 8:00 AM. (Committee Materials)
Feb 15
Executive action taken in the House Committee on Judiciary at 1:30 PM. (Committee Materials)
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Old 16th February 2018, 09:11 AM   #155
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The bump stock ban bill passed out of the Judiciary with a pass recommendation 10-3. It was less partisan than I thought it would be. There will be no grandfathering for those who own them now.
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Old 16th February 2018, 11:33 AM   #156
ginjawarrior
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
If I want to hit the target (I don't shoot at an n8 acre crowd) I use semi-auto.
good for you

if your target is an 8 acre crowd tho....
Quote:
I say his accuracy sucked.
in time spent firing and bullets on target
accuracy means little..
Quote:
Even the Brady Campaign claimed the semi-auto AR-15 was more dangerous than the full auto M-16. But I think they're full of crap too.
yet full auto is heavily regulated and rightly so

i wont shed a single tear for the newly passed ban
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Old 16th February 2018, 12:14 PM   #157
applecorped
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This new law really came in handy in the recent shooting
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Old 16th February 2018, 04:14 PM   #158
Ranb
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It's not law yet. It still has to make it past the Rules Committee. There aren't enough blue dog democrats to kill it so I expect it will get placed on a third reading where it will probably pass with at least 60% of the House favoring it.
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Old 20th February 2018, 03:35 AM   #159
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
People like slide fire because they fantasize about killing lots of people.
Not really. I expect that most of the people that use them like them because having the gun go boom boom really fast causes a large spike in their adrenaline and endorphin levels as they waste $16+ in small metal projectiles.
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Old 20th February 2018, 04:04 AM   #160
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Not really. I expect that most of the people that use them like them because having the gun go boom boom really fast causes a large spike in their adrenaline and endorphin levels as they waste $16+ in small metal projectiles.
While fantasizing about the targets being people. It's a fetish.
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