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Tags gun laws , Washington politics

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Old 20th February 2018, 06:40 AM   #161
theprestige
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Not really. I expect that most of the people that use them like them because having the gun go boom boom really fast causes a large spike in their adrenaline and endorphin levels as they waste $16+ in small metal projectiles.
It's entertainment. It's not a waste if they feel good about it.
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Old 20th February 2018, 08:03 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
While fantasizing about the targets being people. It's a fetish.
Knowing that this forum encourages evidence based arguments and claims, I was wondering how you came to this conclusion.

How does target shooting as a means to train murderers compare to non-firearm martial arts and other contact sports in which the practitioner trains to beat a person to death with their own hands? Is it a fetish or something else?

Last edited by Ranb; 20th February 2018 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:31 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
How accurate do you have to be to hit a crowd?
Seems like a family sedan-sized group would be ideal for that purpose.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:06 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's entertainment. It's not a waste if they feel good about it.
Or maybe it's a cry for help.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:27 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Or maybe it's a cry for help.
No more so than any martial art practiced for sport.
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Old 20th February 2018, 12:55 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No more so than any martial art practiced for sport.
Nonsense, and irrelevant anyway.
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Old 20th February 2018, 07:54 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Knowing that this forum encourages evidence based arguments and claims, I was wondering how you came to this conclusion.
I'm using the same evidence standards at the NRA.

Quote:

How does target shooting as a means to train murderers compare to non-firearm martial arts and other contact sports in which the practitioner trains to beat a person to death with their own hands? Is it a fetish or something else?
Because shooting targets is done to increase the ability to shoot people. Martial artists don't have "the deadly" hands except in movies.
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Old 20th February 2018, 08:02 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Nonsense, and irrelevant anyway.
Every kind of sense, and supremely relevant to the line of attack thaiboxerken has undertaken.
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Old 20th February 2018, 08:03 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm using the same evidence standards at the NRA.



Because shooting targets is done to increase the ability to shoot people. Martial artists don't have "the deadly" hands except in movies.
How do you explain Olympic biathletes?
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Old 20th February 2018, 08:11 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How do you explain Olympic biathletes?
Fetishists.
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Old 20th February 2018, 10:24 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm using the same evidence standards at the NRA.
I'm expecting one hell of a lot better than NRA standards even from you. Why not raise your standards to something that is not so disgusting?

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Because shooting targets is done to increase the ability to shoot people.
I'm not planning on shooting anyone; why do you insult me like that?

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Martial artists don't have "the deadly" hands except in movies.
I know what movie violence is. I'm also not so naive as to believe that a person can't be beaten to death by another with their bare hands. Why are you trying to make us believe that you're not training to be a better killer when you kickbox?
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Old 20th February 2018, 10:28 PM   #172
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Maybe I am, but that doesn't matter. No one is calling to ban marksmanship. You can train to kill with guns all you want.

I'm just calling for people to not have easy access to weapons of mass murder.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:03 PM   #173
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Wow another ban that will do nothing. I listened to the radio on my way home today and most people calling in don't even know what a bump stock is, nor that it has (to my knowledge) been used in exactly one "mass" shooting, ever.

"Wow I was so surprised to hear Trump talk about bump stock banning, gee he's doing something!" No he is not don't be an idiot.

As much as I've changed my opinion about guns, this is just more stupidity to placate the dipsticks. I have not changed my opinion on meaningless or stupid laws.

Also, I said recently "to be clear, I do not think owning a gun should be a right". I'm not actually sure how I feel about that, and I don't pretend to have answers for all of this.

The only way this changes is if gun enthusiasts one day agree that the gun thing isn't worth it, and I don't see that happening in my lifetime.
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:04 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I'm using the same evidence standards at the NRA.



Because shooting targets is done to increase the ability to shoot people. Martial artists don't have "the deadly" hands except in movies.
More than one Kendoka owns a live blade or blades. Would you consider them to be murderers-in-practice?
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Old 20th February 2018, 11:32 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
More than one Kendoka owns a live blade or blades. Would you consider them to be murderers-in-practice?
Yes. Maybe they should have restrictions on carrying swords.
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:07 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Fetishists.
Special pleading.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:23 PM   #177
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Out of interest, are bump stocks legally sold in any other country?
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:28 PM   #178
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I can't find a thing on bump fire stocks in other countries. In those countries that allow civilian ownership of center fire rifles, I'd imagine that bump stocks are not an issue at all.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:43 PM   #179
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The Florida school shooter Cruz was in an Instagram chat with some hater buddies. One of them recommended to him to buy a bump fire stock. I don't think he did, though he did purchase 10 rifles in about the past year.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:45 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Martial artists don't have "the deadly" hands except in movies.
No, but when they're training, they fantasize about punching people to death like a movie ninja, probably.
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Old 21st February 2018, 12:53 PM   #181
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https://sports.yahoo.com/one-america...171558054.html
Quote:
Lowell Bailey is one of the best marksmen in America.....He is an Olympian biathlete.

“We’re a sport that uses a .22-caliber rifle,” Bailey said. “A .22-caliber rifle that shoots a single round is a much different thing than an AR-15. In my opinion, there’s just no reason for assault rifles to be in the hands of ordinary citizens.”
Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course.

Quote:
“I have no interest in owning a weapon that can kill another human being – that’s designed to kill another human being,” he said. “And to do it in an expeditious way. Why is that allowed? It’s maddening.”
But to some people on this forum he is just another wanna-be murderer training to kill more proficiently. Doesn't matter if his rifle shoots the 22lr cartridge, it's still very lethal in his hands. The biathlon has it's roots in military training. If Bailey is really suggesting that his rifle can't kill a person then he is a liar who thinks the reporter he was talking to is stupid.

Quote:
“There was a time in our country when the means to defend yourself against an oppressive government was an appropriate justification,” Bailey said. “That time has passed.”....It’s time our politicians sat down and made some tough choices. What’s more important? Owning an AR-15 or having innocent school children get killed?”
He is extremely naÔve if he thinks the government will stop at banning ar-15's if they're able to introduce restrictions that prohibit the ownership of semi-auto rifles.

Last edited by Ranb; 21st February 2018 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:12 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
https://sports.yahoo.com/one-america...171558054.html

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course.
He probably should have said "good reason" because when it boils down to it, the only reason to have one is "Because I want it, wahhhh!"

Quote:
But to some people on this forum he is just another wanna-be murderer training to kill more proficiently. Doesn't matter if his rifle shoots the 22lr cartridge, it's still very lethal in his hands. The biathlon has it's roots in military training. If Bailey is really suggesting that his rifle can't kill a person then he is a liar who thinks the reporter he was talking to is stupid.
He said "designed to kill", not "capable of killing". Let's be honest here, assault rifles were designed to kill people. Yes I understand that they can be used for other things, but the AR-15 is the civilian version of an M-16, which was created for the military to... kill people. That is the primary purpose of the weapon. Restricting those sorts of weapons to only those people that can be entirely trusted with them is not a bad thing, a lot of countries have done it and the world hasn't ended.

Quote:
He is extremely naÔve if he thinks the government will stop at banning ar-15's if they're able to introduce restrictions that prohibit the ownership of semi-auto rifles.
And to claim that that they'll keep on going is paranoid. The UK, Australia, NZ and others have done exactly this, ban or highly restrict semi-automatic rifles, and even handguns, and yet guns are still able to be purchased and used. If I really wanted a gun I could have one within a week or so, all it would require is that I sit my firearms licence and prove I have a safe storage for it. If I already had a firearms licence, I could go and buy a gun whenever I wanted. The Boogyman of "oh my god, if they ban one class then tomorrow they'll ban all guns" is just that a boogyman. It simply hasn't happened where firearms have been already been greatly restricted.

Yes I am aware of those that do want to ban them all, but the reality is that should sensible gun controls be enacted and enforced, then they will be seen for what they are, kooks. The only reason they have any power at the moment is because those that oppose any form of gun control are allowing the continuing of mass shootings to serve as a backdrop to the movement to ban all guns. Sensible controls elsewhere in the world have shown that these can be prevented, or at least limited, and removing those from the table takes the wind out of the "Ban all guns" politician's sails.

The irony is that the more the "no restrictions" groups dig in now, instead going to the table and being a part of sensible and good gun control, the more likely it is that when the tipping point occurs, and it will, they are going to have no place at the table and will lose everything.
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Last edited by PhantomWolf; 21st February 2018 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 21st February 2018, 02:20 PM   #183
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A not small component of gun rights proponents' arguments would seem to be, "We must have our guns so that the evil government cannot come to take our guns!"
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Old 21st February 2018, 04:15 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
He probably should have said "good reason" because when it boils down to it, the only reason to have one is "Because I want it, wahhhh!"
So that's why he is competing in the biathlon?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
He said "designed to kill", not "capable of killing".
No matter how you spin it, he was quoted as saying "can kill another human being Ė thatís designed to kill another human being"

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Let's be honest here, assault rifles were designed to kill people. Yes I understand that they can be used for other things, but the AR-15 is the civilian version of an M-16, which was created for the military to... kill people.
A select fire AR-15 would be the civilian version of the M-16, but very few AR-15's are select fire.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
And to claim that that they'll keep on going is paranoid. The UK, Australia, NZ and others have done exactly this, ban or highly restrict semi-automatic rifles, and even handguns, and yet guns are still able to be purchased and used.
I said a government would not stop at banning AR-15's, not stop at banning semi-auto rifles.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If I really wanted a gun I could have one within a week or so, all it would require is that I sit my firearms licence and prove I have a safe storage for it. If I already had a firearms licence, I could go and buy a gun whenever I wanted. The Boogyman of "oh my god, if they ban one class then tomorrow they'll ban all guns" is just that a boogyman. It simply hasn't happened where firearms have been already been greatly restricted.
Where did I say in these thread that all guns would be banned?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Yes I am aware of those that do want to ban them all, but the reality is that should sensible gun controls be enacted and enforced, then they will be seen for what they are, kooks.
I agree with this.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 12:08 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So that's why he is competing in the biathlon?
Biathlon doesn't use assault rifles.

Quote:
No matter how you spin it, he was quoted as saying "can kill another human being – that’s designed to kill another human being"
Exactly, he qualified his statement to those guns designed to kill people, just as you quoted here.

Quote:
A select fire AR-15 would be the civilian version of the M-16, but very few AR-15's are select fire.
Stop quibbling. The AR-15 is little more than an M-16 with the select fire removed to make it acceptable to the civilian market. Put it back in and you pretty much have an M-16 back.

Quote:
I said a government would not stop at banning AR-15's, not stop at banning semi-auto rifles.
Well there would be little point in banning one version of an assault rifle and leaving all the others, no?

Quote:
Where did I say in these thread that all guns would be banned?
That's generally where the line of argument you were using goes, I was just getting in before the whole slippery slope fallacy came into play.

Quote:
I agree with this.
well at least we can agree on one thing.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 09:04 AM   #186
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Biathletes use rifle that can be very effective at killing people if they chose to do so. He says his rifle is acceptable but others are not. If he was required in his sport to engage targets out to 600 yards then he might well be using a NM AR-15 or similar type rifle. The biathlon rifle he uses is not an assault rifle only because no one has defined it as such.

I don't think he would be able to convince some of the people here that he is not a wannabe murder or using a rifle designed to kill people.

I don't tend to go in for the slippery slope argument, so no need for you to jump in premature.

The AWB of 1994 was all about attempting to ban some versions of semi-auto rifles (as well as some assault weapons) and leaving others alone. They did it for ten years, but yes, there is little point in doing it.

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Old 22nd February 2018, 01:42 PM   #187
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The Rules Committee has the bump stock ban bill now. The chairman is also the Speaker of the House. Frank Chopp (D) is the same guy that plucked the SBR bill (eased restrictions)out of committee where they had killed it twice to bring it to the House floor for a vote where it readily passed.

I've no doubt he will schedule it for a vote in the House where it will pass by a significant margin.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 05:46 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Special pleading.
Not that kind of fetish.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 05:47 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No, but when they're training, they fantasize about punching people to death like a movie ninja, probably.
That's all well and good, but it still won't happen, at least not easily. It is very easy to kill with a gun, not a punch.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 05:54 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
That's all well and good, but it still won't happen, at least not easily. It is very easy to kill with a gun, not a punch.
We're not talking about how easy it is. We're talking about the violent fantasies of people who practice violent hobbies. This is a theory of yours, that you seem unwilling to apply consistently.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 06:01 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Fetishists.
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Not that kind of fetish.
You've heard of "gun porn" right? What about "kung fu porn"? Both revolve around the fetish of beating up or killing others with guns or fists. Those kinds of entertainment exist to amuse the viewer in much the same way as the usual pornography. I'm not saying the viewer is aroused by the content, but that the plot revolves around displays of the weapons/fighting much like porn revolves around sex.
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Old 25th February 2018, 09:00 AM   #192
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http://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?Bi...5992&Year=2017
Passed the House 56 to 41. The pro-gun bills that make it to the floor usually pass with very few no votes. I don't think I've seen any anti-gun bills pass with less than 30% opposing.

I can add this to the "passed because it felt good and we wanted to do something" list.

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Old 25th February 2018, 06:04 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We're not talking about how easy it is. We're talking about the violent fantasies of people who practice violent hobbies. This is a theory of yours, that you seem unwilling to apply consistently.
I thought we were talking about gun legislation.
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Old 25th February 2018, 06:09 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I can add this to the "passed because it felt good and we wanted to do something" list.
Good, now to chip away at other deadly toy accessories.
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Old 25th February 2018, 06:21 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
http://app.leg.wa.gov/billsummary?Bi...5992&Year=2017
Passed the House 56 to 41. The pro-gun bills that make it to the floor usually pass with very few no votes. I don't think I've seen any anti-gun bills pass with less than 30% opposing.

I can add this to the "passed because it felt good and we wanted to do something" list.
Agreed. I felt the same when Jerry Brown here in CA signed legislation that would forbid CCW carriers from bringing weapons onto school campuses, which was successful in lowering the number of CCW school shootings from zero all the way down to zero.
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Old 25th February 2018, 06:35 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Agreed. I felt the same when Jerry Brown here in CA signed legislation that would forbid CCW carriers from bringing weapons onto school campuses, which was successful in lowering the number of CCW school shootings from zero all the way down to zero.
What a waste of legislative effort, eh? Really, we must wait for a few instances of CCW shoot-ups to occur before we can even begin to assess if there might be any reason to pass a law against 'em.
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Old 25th February 2018, 07:21 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Good, now to chip away at other deadly toy accessories.
Such as?
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Old 25th February 2018, 07:25 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
What a waste of legislative effort, eh?
I agree. I've also yet to find a single WA legislator who will say out loud that the bill will save anyone's life.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Really, we must wait for a few instances of CCW shoot-ups to occur before we can even begin to assess if there might be any reason to pass a law against 'em.
I keep hearing people crying wolf about how concealed carry is going to lead to "wild west" shootouts. I can almost hear the disappointment in their voices when it doesn't happen like they expected each time another state allows it.
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Old 25th February 2018, 07:33 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Such as?
Scopes.
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Old 26th February 2018, 04:16 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Scopes.
Since scopes have a not only legitimate purpose in both sports shooting and hunting, but are kind of required in both cases to either compete or to take part in the activity with greater safety, how exactly do you think this kind of ban would work?
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