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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 14th May 2019, 06:10 PM   #1761
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
OLOL..

Barack Obama droned a bunch of folks in his first term. Do you think that jeopardized his reelection?
And I repeat: it's a metaphor for his base excusing away every damn thing he does no matter what. Carry on!
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:57 PM   #1762
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know, Cabbage. I know.


Says the guy who sucks at identifying disingenuity.
Coming from someone as disingenuous as you this is pretty much meaningless BS not worthy of attention.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:05 PM   #1763
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I can give Trump credit for at least one thing: he knows his base. When he said he could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and not lose a vote, he was right. We've seen that kind of blind defense of him in this thread over and over again by the same people. Scares the hell out of me.


Originally Posted by Donald trump
I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.
Times Square is between 42nd and 43rd, where Broadway meets Seventh. 2 yuge blocks away from the middle of 5th Avenue. Plus, given Trumps general point of reference, he probably meant more uptown—in the mid to high 50’s towards Central Park.

This is a small detail and in no way affects your point. I just checked the quote out of curiosity.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:53 PM   #1764
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Times Square is between 42nd and 43rd, where Broadway meets Seventh. 2 yuge blocks away from the middle of 5th Avenue. Plus, given Trumps general point of reference, he probably meant more uptown—in the mid to high 50’s towards Central Park.

This is a small detail and in no way affects your point. I just checked the quote out of curiosity.
I haven't been to NYC since I was 4 years old. Times Square, 5th Ave...all the same to me.
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:00 AM   #1765
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It seems that Trump's madness is Lovecraftianly recursive: think too much upon it and you yourself go mad! Evidence: this thread.
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Old 15th May 2019, 08:50 PM   #1766
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Can you pinpoint what exactly is wrong there? We have plenty of patients older than him in good health and are very active...are they all dangerously mentally ill too?
At the very least it shows that the man often cannot string together a coherent sentence. I mean I understand what he means (I think), he means I'm ok - I feel like a guy of 29.

But his comment is stumbling, tearing and juvenile. I don't expect the person to hold that office to be an English laureate, but to at lest be able to communicate effortlessly and to a good standard.

My 14 year old daughter talks more eloquently than that.

If he was my president I'd be facepalming.
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Old 15th May 2019, 08:51 PM   #1767
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His actions are within the mainstream of US presidential actions.
Not sure that true at all.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:23 PM   #1768
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Not sure that true at all.
I'm positive they aren't and anyone not seeing is is being willfully blind, and it's bizarre that anyone thinks Trump is normal.
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Old 16th May 2019, 02:20 AM   #1769
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His actions are within the mainstream of US presidential actions.
No they're not. He lies at least an order of magnitude - maybe two orders of magnitude - more than mainstream US presidents.
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Old 16th May 2019, 05:20 AM   #1770
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His actions are within the mainstream of US presidential actions.
Maybe US Presidents WWII or earlier, if you consider the protectionism, isolationism, xenophobia, internment camps, and unregulated businesses. A perfect recipe for, among other things, a stock market crash and second Great Depression.

Those who do not learn from history...

make great reality TV stars, but little else.
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Old 16th May 2019, 05:43 AM   #1771
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I can give Trump credit for at least one thing: he knows his base. When he said he could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square and not lose a vote, he was right. We've seen that kind of blind defense of him in this thread over and over again by the same people. Scares the hell out of me.
Totally agree. In fact, that someone came running with a knee-jerk butbutbama! post (butdronstrikes!!!) in reply to this particular post speaks volumes.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:25 AM   #1772
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Originally Posted by BadBoy View Post
Not sure that true at all.
That's fair. It's certainly a debatable point.
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Old 17th May 2019, 10:35 PM   #1773
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YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Former national economic council director tells House Republicans an analysis rated Trump a '10-out-of-10 narcissist' (CNN, May 16)

Trump a '10 out of 10 narcissist' with long-term decision-making ability of an ‘empty chair’, former Bush official says (The Independent, May 17)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th May 2019, 05:30 AM   #1774
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
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I AGREE

Trump a '10 out of 10 narcissist' with long-term decision-making ability of an ‘empty chair’, former Bush official says (The Independent, May 17)
So after Clint Eastwood's weird conversation with an empty chair in 2012, the GOP actually elected an empty chair in 2016.
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Old 18th May 2019, 08:45 AM   #1775
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... but unlike Clint Eastwood, most of them (not all of them!) seem to be quite happy with the choice they made.
Clint Eastwood explains — and regrets — his speech to an empty chair (The Spec, Aug. 04, 2016)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th May 2019, 01:37 PM   #1776
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Is there anyone here, even among Trump's supporters, who doesn't think Trump is a narcissist?
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Old 19th May 2019, 02:06 AM   #1777
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His actions are within the mainstream of US presidential actions.
I understand that being president is a very, very stressful job (when performed seriously). As such, every president is going to have an occasional brain fart and should be forgiven. E.g. “There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.” G.W.B.

Previous presidents either admitted these mistakes or never referred to these mistakes. They did not make up two contradictory and absurd reasons to explain their mistakes. E.g. I said Tim Cook Apple. I said his name and you just didn’t hear it. And that poorly-thought-out excuse was followed by “I quickly referred to Tim + Apple as Tim/Apple as an easy way to save time & words.”

Previous presidents have not responded to every single criticism by constructing lies. “Oh, he is just saying that about me because he asked me for a job and I turned him down.”

Previous presidents have never accused the media of spreading lies more than 400 times each year.

Previous presidents have never described people marching alongside of Nazis as fine people.

Previous presidents have never sided with a Russian president over the combined conclusions of American intelligence agencies - an action so unprecedented that people in his own party started questioning his loyalties.

.......
I can understand holding the position that he has not yet been formally diagnosed with a specific debilitating mental illness, but one doesn’t need medical training to conclude that this guy is not normal.
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Old 19th May 2019, 05:48 AM   #1778
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Is there anyone here, even among Trump's supporters, who doesn't think Trump is a narcissist?
Colloquially? He's a self-absorbed ass. Medically? I'm agnostic, and I don't think it matters anyway. Ethically? The Yale group has harmed their profession more than they've helped... Anything. Well. I guess probably the book sales have helped Dr Lee's bank account.
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Old 19th May 2019, 09:49 AM   #1779
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Colloquially? He's a self-absorbed ass. Medically? I'm agnostic, and I don't think it matters anyway. Ethically? The Yale group has harmed their profession more than they've helped... Anything. Well. I guess probably the book sales have helped Dr Lee's bank account.
Claiming the Yale group harmed their profession is akin to Trump calling the NYT and WA Po as failing fake news sources.

The only people drinking that koolaid are in his gullible base.
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Old 19th May 2019, 10:19 AM   #1780
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Claiming the Yale group harmed their profession is akin to Trump calling the NYT and WA Po as failing fake news sources.

The only people drinking that koolaid are in his gullible base.


Bad analogy.

Here’s the way I see the harm to the profession: psychiatry is trying to move to evidence-based practice and the Yale group’s actions here are detrimental to that goal.

I don’t care how experienced and well-trained a shrink is, they should base their practice on guidelines derived from scientific evidence.
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Old 19th May 2019, 11:11 AM   #1781
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Colloquially? He's a self-absorbed ass. Medically? I'm agnostic, and I don't think it matters anyway. Ethically? The Yale group has harmed their profession more than they've helped... Anything. Well. I guess probably the book sales have helped Dr Lee's bank account.
My post had nothing to do with the Yale group yet you need to bring it up in an attempt to muddy the waters. More psychologists/psychiatrists than just the Yale group have given their professional opinions that Trump is, indeed, a world-class narcissist.

The 'need' for an in-person interview by a psychologist is due to the fact that s/he does not usually have access to years of videos and interviews of the subject. On the other hand, there are decades of Trump's behavior available for review. A doctor doesn't need to see the patient in person to diagnose a broken arm when s/he has seen a video of the ulna sticking out of the arm.

Your post boils down to one thing: you cannot admit Trump is a classic narcissist.
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Old 19th May 2019, 11:17 AM   #1782
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Bad analogy.

Here’s the way I see the harm to the profession: psychiatry is trying to move to evidence-based practice and the Yale group’s actions here are detrimental to that goal.

I don’t care how experienced and well-trained a shrink is, they should base their practice on guidelines derived from scientific evidence.
They do; it's called the DSM-5. Would you care to point out which one of these Trump does not meet?

Quote:
Professional psychiatrists and psychotherapists are loath to go on record saying that Trump has a psychiatric disorder on the premise that one cannot give a diagnosis without an office visit and most narcissists are quite unlikely to recognize that they have a problem and to schedule an appointment.

Fortunately, the DSM is written so clearly, and so simply, that the diagnosis is transparent.

According to DSM-5, individuals with NPD have most (at least five) or all of the symptoms listed below (generally without commensurate qualities or accomplishments).

1.Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment by others.
2.Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
3.Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions.
4.Needing constant admiration from others.
5.Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others.
6.Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain.
7.Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs.
8.Intensely jealous of others and the belief that others are equally jealous of them.
9.Pompous and arrogant demeanor.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ality-disorder
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Old 19th May 2019, 12:34 PM   #1783
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Bad analogy.

Here’s the way I see the harm to the profession: psychiatry is trying to move to evidence-based practice and the Yale group’s actions here are detrimental to that goal.

I don’t care how experienced and well-trained a shrink is, they should base their practice on guidelines derived from scientific evidence.
Ooou a twofur.

This is a piddly opinion, no evidence presented.

In addition, a stand on ethics has nothing to do with evidence based practice. It's already been well supported that the in-person exam would add nothing in this case.
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Old 19th May 2019, 01:05 PM   #1784
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Bad analogy.

Here’s the way I see the harm to the profession: psychiatry is trying to move to evidence-based practice and the Yale group’s actions here are detrimental to that goal.

I don’t care how experienced and well-trained a shrink is, they should base their practice on guidelines derived from scientific evidence.
Which is exactly what they are doing. They are basing their professional opinions on the evidence that they see in decades of videos of Trump interviews,speeches and on TV.

Quote:
Sander Thomaes, a developmental psychologist at Utrecht University, is happy with Donald Trump. "I often use him during my classes. My research is primarily focused on narcissism. There is no better example than Trump: he is a prototypical narcissist."

Thomaes serves up some characteristics of a classical narcissist. A grandiose self image. A very inflated ego. A continuous need for attention. A big urge to be admired. And if that admiration is lacking or the narcissist is criticized, which is even worse, he lashes out recklessly
https://www.uu.nl/en/node/541/donald...ook-narcissist
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Old 19th May 2019, 02:37 PM   #1785
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Bad analogy.

Here’s the way I see the harm to the profession: psychiatry is trying to move to evidence-based practice and the Yale group’s actions here are detrimental to that goal.

I don’t care how experienced and well-trained a shrink is, they should base their practice on guidelines derived from scientific evidence.

Yep. Observing a subject--who might be unrevealingly guarded--over a period of an hour or two while in the same room is *SO MUCH MORE SCIENTIFIC* than observing a subject through the media while (comfortably, we might presume most of the time) in his own environment over decades.

ETA: Essentially ninja'd by Stacy.

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Old 19th May 2019, 04:42 PM   #1786
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The thing you need to realize about Trump apologists [SNIP] is that they have no opinions of their own; they merely borrow opinions to support their fantasy.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed to comply with Rule 12

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Old Yesterday, 02:50 PM   #1787
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Ooou a twofur.

This is a piddly opinion, no evidence presented.

In addition, a stand on ethics has nothing to do with evidence based practice. It's already been well supported that the in-person exam would add nothing in this case.


“Well supported,” = your own “piddly opinion.”

What has been well-established is that the professional organizations disagree with you. You have not cited one piece of evidence re: in-person exams not being needed. All you have is your own opinion and that of the very professionals who are breaching ethics in the first place.
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Old Yesterday, 02:59 PM   #1788
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Yep. Observing a subject--who might be unrevealingly guarded--over a period of an hour or two while in the same room is *SO MUCH MORE SCIENTIFIC* than observing a subject through the media while (comfortably, we might presume most of the time) in his own environment over decades.

ETA: Essentially ninja'd by Stacy.


A psychiatric evaluation is not a one or two hour deal. But observing and getting to know a subject through multiple face-to-face clinical conversations using validated tools? Yes, that is indeed much more scientific than watching/listening to someone on 60 Minutes, Howard Stern, reality TV shows, cable “news” shows, public speeches -all venues where a subject is definitely not “in his own environment,” (I’m not sure why we should presume it is)- and then deciding you know a subject well enough to diagnose a “dangerous mental illness.”
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Old Yesterday, 03:09 PM   #1789
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
They do; it's called the DSM-5. Would you care to point out which one of these Trump does not meet?





https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...ality-disorder


I don’t attempt to look up DSM criteria and diagnose people. It’s not a checklist. I have said that Trump is narcissistic. What I take issue with is the medicalizing of this trivial fact and inflating it into “NPD,” or “dangerously mentally ill.” That’s the problem here.
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Old Yesterday, 05:45 PM   #1790
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I don’t attempt to look up DSM criteria and diagnose people. It’s not a checklist. I have said that Trump is narcissistic. What I take issue with is the medicalizing of this trivial fact and inflating it into “NPD,” or “dangerously mentally ill.” That’s the problem here.
Um....the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria actually is a checklist. It's a list of nine criteria, five of which must be indicated (checked) to diagnose narcissism.

I would not call Trump's narcissism a 'trivial fact' any more than the KKK's racism is a 'trivial fact'. It is a key, if not the key, component of Trump's personality and what drives his actions.

ETA: Here is a copy of the DSM-5 Checklist for autism:


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Old Yesterday, 05:49 PM   #1791
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
“Well supported,” = your own “piddly opinion.”

What has been well-established is that the professional organizations disagree with you. You have not cited one piece of evidence re: in-person exams not being needed. All you have is your own opinion and that of the very professionals who are breaching ethics in the first place.
You're back to repeating the same arguments that have been debunked.
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Old Today, 05:46 AM   #1792
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You're back to repeating the same arguments that have been debunked.


Debunked? Uh...no. You may disagree with mainstream psychiatry/ology and their position as is your right. But that doesn’t make you right.

I’ll put it very bluntly: anti-vaxxers disagree with mainstream medicine. Plenty of doctors/medical professionals are anti-vaxxers. Have they debunked vaccines with their disagreement? Are they right because they are experienced and trained professionals?
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Old Today, 05:48 AM   #1793
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It seems that Trump's madness is Lovecraftianly recursive: think too much upon it and you yourself go mad! Evidence: this thread.
It's cyclopean, non-euclidian madness!
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Old Today, 06:24 AM   #1794
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I’ll put it very bluntly: anti-vaxxers disagree with mainstream medicine. Plenty of doctors/medical professionals are anti-vaxxers. Have they debunked vaccines with their disagreement? Are they right because they are experienced and trained professionals?
In the case of antivax, there are many definitive studies showing the safety of vaccines while the one study that shows an autism link has been shown to be fraudulent. And while there are probably a few antivax doctors, the vast majority strongly support the use of vaccines.

In the case of psychiatric diagnoses, there are AFAIK no studies that refute the effectiveness of diagnosis through review of hundreds of hours of written and recorded material throughout the subject's life, and the majority of psychiatrists have simply not officially commented on Trump's mental health or this method of diagnosis, which is a far cry from your analogous position of pro-vaccine doctors.

There is nothing analogous about antivax.
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Old Today, 06:32 AM   #1795
HeadOverH33ls
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He is the President. Nobody will ever do anything against that Donald Trump is your president. The truth is that he stays in that position no matter what kind of orders or commands are given about that. He won't die.

Obviously the U.S. citizens support him no matter what kind of mental illness he has. It's not relevant for those who support him.
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Old Today, 07:06 AM   #1796
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Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness', say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 2

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Um....the DSM-5 diagnostic criteria actually is a checklist. It's a list of nine criteria, five of which must be indicated (checked) to diagnose narcissism.

I would not call Trump's narcissism a 'trivial fact' any more than the KKK's racism is a 'trivial fact'. It is a key, if not the key, component of Trump's personality and what drives his actions.

ETA: Here is a copy of the DSM-5 Checklist for autism:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...350591c42b.jpg


Maybe they should just print them in Cosmo, huh?

It’s a tool for professionals to use in conjunction with other validated tools and techniques. One of those tools is a semi-structured interview.

In any case, let’s grant you (for argument’s sake) that Trump does indeed check off all the boxes for NPD. Ok, so what? I’ll bet we could check off boxes for other Presidents -here’s a handy ranking. We survived those guys and we will survive this guy; “dangerously mentally ill,” is not an automatic consequence of NPD. In order to get to “dangerous” you need something else and that is where things veer into speculation.
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Old Today, 07:17 AM   #1797
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You'd have to show me a study showing that other Billionaires, and other Presidents aren't also on that list.

I think you have to have most of those traits in order to even get to the point you would think you can run for President. I'd also think most of those traits are typical of people who have managed to accumulate billions of dollars.

The difference is, Trump doesn't bother to hide it like most politicians.
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Old Today, 08:13 AM   #1798
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
In the case of antivax, there are many definitive studies showing the safety of vaccines while the one study that shows an autism link has been shown to be fraudulent. And while there are probably a few antivax doctors, the vast majority strongly support the use of vaccines.

In the case of psychiatric diagnoses, there are AFAIK no studies that refute the effectiveness of diagnosis through review of hundreds of hours of written and recorded material throughout the subject's life, and the majority of psychiatrists have simply not officially commented on Trump's mental health or this method of diagnosis, which is a far cry from your analogous position of pro-vaccine doctors.

There is nothing analogous about antivax.
This is a key. We have experts saying they can identify the disorder in Trump with what they have.

Unless it can be shown that most experts disagree, then this is a non-fallacious use of argument from legitimate authority, which is actually a rather strong argument for in most practical situations. It can be countered by showing that the expert in question is an outlier wrt to other experts in the field, but AFAIK that has not be shown.
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Old Today, 08:14 AM   #1799
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

It’s a tool for professionals to use in conjunction with other validated tools and techniques. One of those tools is a semi-structured interview.
So your contention is that they must use every single tool every time?
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Old Today, 08:24 AM   #1800
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Originally Posted by HeadOverH33ls View Post
He is the President. Nobody will ever do anything against that Donald Trump is your president. The truth is that he stays in that position no matter what kind of orders or commands are given about that. He won't die.

Obviously the U.S. citizens support him no matter what kind of mental illness he has. It's not relevant for those who support him.


Some citizens and not a majority. In case you don't know it, our sucky Electoral College system giving the rural minority an advantage over the rest of us is why (among other reasons) that scum is POTUS.
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