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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , DCCC , democrats

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Old 27th March 2019, 03:18 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's "no". I do not agree that compromise is a necessary quality in all politicians. I do not conflate politicians and diplomats, I don't think the skillset of a legislator requires a desire to compromise.
So how do you deal with your neighbors who don't agree with you on how to run the country? You rule by decree while you have the power and they do the same when it's their turn? That won't get you very far, each cycle.

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That compromises sometimes occur doesn't make them desirable in all situations.
I believe I've already said that. But in the general case, they are desirable, if one wants to live civilly with other people.
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Old 27th March 2019, 03:22 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They can't get concessions without beating the opposition. That's the point. It's a boxing match where one person is there to fight, and the other is standing there saying "well, maybe we should just talk it over and work together" and then wondering why there are so many stars out in the daytime. Someone who refuses to recognize they're in a fight isn't going to be the winner. It's time to fight, not compromise. AOC and company realize that. The voters realize that, which is why they elected them. The Democrat machine doesn't realize it, or won't accept it, and that's why they lose ground every day.
Unless the Democratic Party gets a majority in both houses, plus the Presidency, then they will absolutely need to compromise sometimes to get anything that they want. Even if they get a slim majority, they probably will still need to compromise.
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Old 27th March 2019, 03:29 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So how do you deal with your neighbors who don't agree with you on how to run the country? You rule by decree while you have the power and they do the same when it's their turn? That won't get you very far, each cycle.
Who are you talking about? I was talking about AOC and the Democrats. Are you asking how I would rule if I were a one-person legislature? With neighbors? On the chance you're actually talking about the current Congress "getting very far" has been impossible for some time thanks to the Republican unwillingness to compromise. The solution isn't for the Democrats to compromise more. They need to fight back. It's not about "getting very far" any more, it's about stopping the march in the wrong direction. Better to fight to a standstill than continue going the Republican's way.

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I believe I've already said that. But in the general case, they are desirable, if one wants to live civilly with other people.
And undesirable if one doesn't want to live uncivilly with their enemies.
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Old 27th March 2019, 03:48 PM   #84
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This thread has been a trollfest since post #6.

Sure you can try to engage trolls once in a while, but multiply that by the dozen or so people who also do and you get a constant mess. Who will be the brave warrior next thread?
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Old 27th March 2019, 03:54 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, it is.

But that's not really much of a threat to most incumbents. Most of them are in districts which will stay blue no matter what. For them, primary challengers are a bigger risk than the Republican party. They'd rather keep their seat and lose the House/Senate/Presidency than win any/all of them but lose their seat.
For many individual candidates that's true. For the Democratic Party as a whole it seems like a bad strategy.
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Old 27th March 2019, 04:16 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
For many individual candidates that's true. For the Democratic Party as a whole it seems like a bad strategy.
"Safe" districts should be able to send a more progressive candidate. But "safe" doesn't mean the same to you and me as it does to the insiders.
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Old 27th March 2019, 04:48 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Wait-
Obama basically won running as Republican Lite.
Not really. He governed as Republican Lite. He campaigned on a progressive platform.
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Old 27th March 2019, 04:50 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
They can't get concessions without beating the opposition. That's the point. It's a boxing match where one person is there to fight, and the other is standing there saying "well, maybe we should just talk it over and work together" and then wondering why there are so many stars out in the daytime. Someone who refuses to recognize they're in a fight isn't going to be the winner. It's time to fight, not compromise. AOC and company realize that. The voters realize that, which is why they elected them. The Democrat machine doesn't realize it, or won't accept it, and that's why they lose ground every day.
I agree. Republicans also agree, that's why they crush pearls and cry foul anytime a Democrat fights back. They prefer the nice, civil liberals that they can beat up on
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Old 27th March 2019, 05:25 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Not really. He governed as Republican Lite. He campaigned on a progressive platform.
Yes, and he didn't have the political baggage that Hillary Clinton had even back in 2008. Oh, and let's not forget 8 years of Bushisms.
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Old 27th March 2019, 05:44 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Yes, and he didn't have the political baggage that Hillary Clinton had even back in 2008. Oh, and let's not forget 8 years of Bushisms.
And Sarah Palin helped him win many, many independents and centrists that would have otherwise voted for McCain.
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Old 27th March 2019, 05:51 PM   #91
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The believers in the Lost Tribe School of Politics are out in force.
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Old 27th March 2019, 06:02 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The DCCC is not stopping primary challenges, they are not banning them from using consultants. They are simply declaring that they wont do further business with these consultants. The consultants are not exactly members of the party.
Nice little consulting business ya got here. Shame if something was to happen to dry up the Democratic half of your business. Just sayin', ya know.
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Old 27th March 2019, 06:13 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The believers in the Lost Tribe School of Politics are out in force.
Do you mean the lost tribe that came out in droves to vote for Donald Trump, polls be damned.
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Old 27th March 2019, 06:37 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Nice little consulting business ya got here. Shame if something was to happen to dry up the Democratic half of your business. Just sayin', ya know.
Weird that you would compare choosing to not do business with people you don't like as extortion. I guess you feel I'm extorting family Dollar because they won't get my business until I like them.

It's a boycott. Democrats boycott businesses all the time.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 27th March 2019 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 27th March 2019, 07:14 PM   #95
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Looks like there's some pushback.

PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS SLAMS DCCC HEAD CHERI BUSTOS FOR HER ASSAULT ON PRIMARY CHALLENGERS

Quote:
“This unprecedented grab of power is a slap in the face of Democratic voters across the nation. It’s something even Rahm Emanuel would not have done and is totally tone-deaf to the grassroots activists across our nation. Voters are sick of the status quo holding on to power and stifling new voices. They are sick of D.C. politicians who care more about holding on to power than a true competition of ideas,” said [Rep. Ro] Khanna.
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Old 27th March 2019, 07:45 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Let's just keep up the "we don't need no stinking centrist/moderates" stuff.
And hand Trump reelection on a silver platter.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The believers in the Lost Tribe School of Politics are out in force.
I think your record is broken. It keeps playing the same lines of the song over and over in every thread.

Though it was really funny that you posted the first considering the thread topic.

Also I'm still waiting for you to accept the bet

Last edited by The_Animus; 27th March 2019 at 07:51 PM. Reason: A word
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Old 27th March 2019, 08:30 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Weird that you would compare choosing to not do business with people you don't like as extortion. I guess you feel I'm extorting family Dollar because they won't get my business until I like them.

It's a boycott. Democrats boycott businesses all the time.
It's a strong arm technique. If you choose to call it a boycott, it can't be helped. (Your example sucks, by the way. If you tell Dollar Store that they won't get your business as long as they sell to "those other people" you've got an apt comparison.)

It's an attempt to use not-their-own-money to protect the in-power group. And the stated goal - to protect incumbents - doesn't quite cover their activities. Lookit what they did in Texas 7 in 2018, spending gobs of money to support one new candidate over another. It wasn't an incumbent but a case of backroom politics.

For the good of the party Dems shouldn't want the DNC or the DCCC picking candidates to spend money on but are tasked, per themselves, with getting Dems elected to Congress. They left out the "Dems We Like" part.

This was the source of a lot of the criticism of the party bigs' treatment of Sanders in 2016. It was the perception that the DNC wasn't neutral that hurt them. And this isn't even a question of perception; the DCCC is saying that they will do everything, including causing financial damage to vendors, to protect the old guard. It stinks.
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Old 27th March 2019, 08:37 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's a strong arm technique. If you choose to call it a boycott, it can't be helped. (Your example sucks, by the way. If you tell Dollar Store that they won't get your business as long as they sell to "those other people" you've got an apt comparison.)

It's an attempt to use not-their-own-money to protect the in-power group. And the stated goal - to protect incumbents - doesn't quite cover their activities. Lookit what they did in Texas 7 in 2018, spending gobs of money to support one new candidate over another. It wasn't an incumbent but a case of backroom politics.

For the good of the party Dems shouldn't want the DNC or the DCCC picking candidates to spend money on but are tasked, per themselves, with getting Dems elected to Congress. They left out the "Dems We Like" part.

This was the source of a lot of the criticism of the party bigs' treatment of Sanders in 2016. It was the perception that the DNC wasn't neutral that hurt them. And this isn't even a question of perception; the DCCC is saying that they will do everything, including causing financial damage to vendors, to protect the old guard. It stinks.
I have no issue with most of this. If the argument is it's not good for the DCCC, then fine.

I object to calling it financial damage. I'm not financially damaging you by electing not to do business with you.
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Old 27th March 2019, 10:21 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no issue with most of this. If the argument is it's not good for the DCCC, then fine.

I object to calling it financial damage. I'm not financially damaging you by electing not to do business with you.
The DCCC holds the purse strings to about 200,000,000 bucks for campaign spending. If they can get all Congress Critters of the Democratic stripe to NOT use your service because you helped a not-incumbent, then it is definitely a threat to financially damage you. Most pollster-consultants work for one party or the other.
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Old 27th March 2019, 10:25 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The DCCC holds the purse strings to about 200,000,000 bucks for campaign spending. If they can get all Congress Critters of the Democratic stripe to NOT use your service because you helped a not-incumbent, then it is definitely a threat to financially damage you. Most pollster-consultants work for one party or the other.
The end of a voluntary exchange is not damsge.
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Old 27th March 2019, 10:35 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The end of a voluntary exchange is not damsge.
Meaningless libertarian babble. I'm done.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:54 AM   #102
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There is a financial argument that is pretty obvious. If Democrats have to solicit donations for safe seats in the primary, doesn't that imply fewer dollars available for the general election?

And can't you argue that challenges against moderates in safe seats will turn into challenges against moderates in purple and red seats?
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Old 28th March 2019, 01:24 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Gotta love establishment Democrats, they're so dedicated to making sure they lose elections the proper way.


Incumbents have distinct advantages and are distinctly more likely to win elections than challengers, in general. As a matter of cynical strategy, it's not wrong to favor them, in general. I firmly object to the DCCC's decision, but on distinctly other grounds. Most tellingly, that I object to de facto shields for corruption and poor behavior, made possible by the Party covering for them. The Republican Party may be notably worse, right now, but the Democratic Party has a long history of distinctly less than stellar behavior, itself, which I quite want rooted out and vigilance towards seriously exercised in the future.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Good.
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Old 28th March 2019, 02:14 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who are you talking about? I was talking about AOC and the Democrats. Are you asking how I would rule if I were a one-person legislature? With neighbors? On the chance you're actually talking about the current Congress "getting very far" has been impossible for some time thanks to the Republican unwillingness to compromise. The solution isn't for the Democrats to compromise more. They need to fight back. It's not about "getting very far" any more, it's about stopping the march in the wrong direction. Better to fight to a standstill than continue going the Republican's way.
I'm sure you understand that I'm, again, speaking in general terms. If you're unwilling to compromise, then you want your representative to do what you want and ignore your neighbor and fellow citizens who disagree, and when they elect their own guy you're the one who gets the short end of the stick. And in the end no one wins because you're both too busy pulling the sheets back to your side every four years.
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Old 28th March 2019, 02:15 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
I think your record is broken. It keeps playing the same lines of the song over and over in every thread.
Well nobody seems to absorb what he's saying, hence the repetition and fool's hope.
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Old 28th March 2019, 03:26 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure you understand that I'm, again, speaking in general terms. If you're unwilling to compromise, then you want your representative to do what you want and ignore your neighbor and fellow citizens who disagree, and when they elect their own guy you're the one who gets the short end of the stick. And in the end no one wins because you're both too busy pulling the sheets back to your side every four years.
I know you aren't American, but I hope you won't mind me using you as an example. Your attitude is pretty common in the Democratic party, and it is exactly why they keep losing ground. As soon as someone suggests they stop playing nice because they keep being taken advantage of, someone else says "well what's wrong with being nice, speaking in general terms?" and they argue themselves into another disastrous loss.
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Old 28th March 2019, 03:33 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I know you aren't American, but I hope you won't mind me using you as an example. Your attitude is pretty common in the Democratic party, and it is exactly why they keep losing ground. As soon as someone suggests they stop playing nice because they keep being taken advantage of, someone else says "well what's wrong with being nice, speaking in general terms?" and they argue themselves into another disastrous loss.
Can I ask you how you know that this sort of attitude is "exactly" why they "keep" losing ground (never mind that they won back the house last year)? Because it sounds like it's your opinion rather than some objective fact.

Some other poster will tell me that your attitude, ignoring the swing voters and focusing on the base, is rather exactly why they keep losing ground.

So which is it?

And also, do you disagree with the general principle of compromise in a society or not?
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Old 28th March 2019, 03:42 AM   #108
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In principle war is wrong. In reality, however, sometimes war is necessary and there have been cases of specific wars that were completely justifiable. Similarly, in principle compromise is good. In reality, however, sometimes refusing to compromise is necessary.
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Old 28th March 2019, 04:08 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
In principle war is wrong. In reality, however, sometimes war is necessary and there have been cases of specific wars that were completely justifiable. Similarly, in principle compromise is good. In reality, however, sometimes refusing to compromise is necessary.
No one's talking about "in principle", so your point above is not relevant to mine. In reality, war is generally wrong and compromise is generally desirable in a community. The fact that exceptions exist does not change the general rule.
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Old 28th March 2019, 04:48 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Can I ask you how you know that this sort of attitude is "exactly" why they "keep" losing ground (never mind that they won back the house last year)? Because it sounds like it's your opinion rather than some objective fact.
The President of the United God Damned States issues Executive Orders via Twitter. His far-right extremist handlers are packing the courts with far-right extremist judges. The Senate Majority Leader refuses to put to a vote any legislation his party did not craft. In addition to the Supreme Court seat obtained by refusing to compromise the last time the Democrats were in charge, they've also installed a drunken rapist in the highest court of the land. The results of an investigation into the President of the United God Damned States being compromised by a hostile foreign power is being blatantly covered up and people are arguing that they should move on, not because it is untrue but because the party in charge simply does not care. These are not good times.

But yes, they have the House.

[ETA] Oh and there's literal concentration camps being established to hold the children forcibly separated from their families as a matter of administrative policy. What would you have thought a decade ago if I said that was the hastily added footnote?

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Old 28th March 2019, 04:56 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The President of the United God Damned States issues Executive Orders via Twitter. His far-right extremist handlers are packing the courts with far-right extremist judges. The Senate Majority Leader refuses to put to a vote any legislation his party did not craft. In addition to the Supreme Court seat obtained by refusing to compromise the last time the Democrats were in charge, they've also installed a drunken rapist in the highest court of the land. The results of an investigation into the President of the United God Damned States being compromised by a hostile foreign power is being blatantly covered up and people are arguing that they should move on, not because it is untrue but because the party in charge simply does not care. These are not good times.
Sorry, how does that answer my question? If you're saying that the above is a result of what you were describing earlier, you're still not supporting your claim. You're just re-stating it. I want to know if you can demonstrate that a compromising attitude is "exactly" why the Democrats "keep" losing ground.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:05 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry, how does that answer my question? If you're saying that the above is a result of what you were describing earlier, you're still not supporting your claim. You're just re-stating it. I want to know if you can demonstrate that a compromising attitude is "exactly" why the Democrats "keep" losing ground.
Yes, I can. But from your use of "quotes" I get the "impression" you're being "argumentative," so I'll save myself the next ten pages of useless back and forth.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:18 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Yes, I can. But from your use of "quotes" I get the "impression" you're being "argumentative," so I'll save myself the next ten pages of useless back and forth.
What are you on about? I'm quoting you. That's what the quotation marks are for. The above is a bizarre reason to dodge having to support your claim. I disagree with that claim. Is that what being argumentatitve is? Should I automatically accept your claim as fact? Otherwise how would you have me respond so that you don't find an excuse to opt out of the discussion?

But given your earlier response, I don't believe you actually can. I think it's your opinion, and that you take that opinion as fact. I don't think that's right, because as was stated earlier in the thread, or elsewhere, politics are way too complex to pin a win or loss on a single factor.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:20 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No one's talking about "in principle", so your point above is not relevant to mine. In reality, war is generally wrong and compromise is generally desirable in a community. The fact that exceptions exist does not change the general rule.
I don't know how you're not getting this.

This is that exception. To counter the ills wrought by the opposition over the last few years the Democrats must compromise less and fight more. It's now. This is the exception to the 'generally desirable'. It's not desirable now.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:22 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I don't know how you're not getting this.
Maybe I'm just stupid.

Quote:
This is that exception.
What is "this"? Trump? The current state of the GOP? The current electorate? The situation at the border? All of the above and more?

See, here's my point, and I don't know how you're not getting this: "this time it's really different" is not very convincing.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:28 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Meaningless libertarian babble. I'm done.
Then please admit in court that you are damaging me by not doing business with me. I should be compensated for the damage you have done to me.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:34 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What is "this"? Trump? The current state of the GOP? The current electorate? The situation at the border? All of the above and more?
'This' was what I said in the sentence immediately after.

Quote:
See, here's my point, and I don't know how you're not getting this: "this time it's really different" is not very convincing.
I don't care about convincing you. Pelosi and the Democrat leadership agree with you, they want to win by doing the exact same things that made them lose last time. I doubt they'll learn the lesson during another four years of Trump, either. There has been a sea change. Adapt or perish.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:36 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What are you on about? I'm quoting you. That's what the quotation marks are for. The above is a bizarre reason to dodge having to support your claim. I disagree with that claim. Is that what being argumentatitve is? Should I automatically accept your claim as fact? Otherwise how would you have me respond so that you don't find an excuse to opt out of the discussion?

But given your earlier response, I don't believe you actually can. I think it's your opinion, and that you take that opinion as fact. I don't think that's right, because as was stated earlier in the thread, or elsewhere, politics are way too complex to pin a win or loss on a single factor.
I said I wasn't doing this. You win: everything you can't dismiss as opinion, you can dismiss because it didn't happen in a vacuum. Congratulations.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:48 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
'This' was what I said in the sentence immediately after.
Yeah but that was very broad, so it circles right back to my point about general compromises, as you don't seem very keen on them to begin with. You're basically saying "well, this time it's important to not compromise on anything", but people have been saying that since forever.
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:48 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Pelosi and the Democrat leadership agree with you, they want to win by doing the exact same things that made them lose last time. I doubt they'll learn the lesson during another four years of Trump, either. There has been a sea change. Adapt or perish.
I've said it before and I'll say it again no matter how much it makes the Democratic Party fanboys bristle and no matter how much the "oH So yOUr jUsT sAyING bOTH sIdEs aRe dA SAME!" nonsense gets thrown at me.

The Democratic Party leadership is not setting themselves up for a win in 2020. They are setting themselves up for a lose that is excusable as "not their fault" and at least some sizable portion of their electorate agrees with them as to that being the better course of action.

Which is fine if protecting the party ego is your concern, no so fine if... you know like the state of the country is your concern.

To put it grossly but aptly the Democrats think they can pull a miracle out of their ass while still keeping it covered.
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