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Tags Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez , DCCC , democrats

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Old 28th March 2019, 05:50 AM   #121
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I said I wasn't doing this. You win: everything you can't dismiss as opinion, you can dismiss because it didn't happen in a vacuum. Congratulations.
Dude, I don't want to win; I want to understand whether you can support the idea that what you describe causes democrats to lose more. If you can do this, I'll actually suppport your conclusions. But you can't complain about me calling your claim an opinion when you refuse to support it.

Do you not see that you have people also claiming the opposite here? Who's right? Both you and your opponents are not moving past the claim stage. How's one to know which one, if anyone, is correct?
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Old 28th March 2019, 05:50 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but that was very broad, so it circles right back to my point about general compromises, as you don't seem very keen on them to begin with. You're basically saying "well, this time it's important to not compromise on anything", but people have been saying that since forever.
We disagree and there is no point to further exchange of remarks.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:05 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We disagree and there is no point to further exchange of remarks.
That's unfortunate. I'm sure the exact point of disagreement could've been found with a bit more digging.

I think I will take your advice about Bob, however.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:47 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Dude, I don't want to win; I want to understand whether you can support the idea that what you describe causes democrats to lose more. If you can do this, I'll actually suppport your conclusions. But you can't complain about me calling your claim an opinion when you refuse to support it.

Do you not see that you have people also claiming the opposite here? Who's right? Both you and your opponents are not moving past the claim stage. How's one to know which one, if anyone, is correct?
I don't doubt that's what you think you're doing. But from my perspective you're asking me to debate a straw man in your head, you've already said you're going to dismiss literally everything I bring up as subjective or an oversimplification, and you've asked TragicMonkey to define the word "this." I'm sorry, I just don't see it as being worth the effort. Maybe next time.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:54 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I don't doubt that's what you think you're doing. But from my perspective you're asking me to debate a straw man in your head
Well in that case, correct my understanding.

Quote:
you've already said you're going to dismiss literally everything I bring up as subjective or an oversimplification
Now, that's not true. I said that I dismiss it IF you can't support it. Unsupported assertions are literally opinions! You said you could support it. Could you do so now so we can get this ball going?

Quote:
and you've asked TragicMonkey to define the word "this."
Dude, how can I not accuse you of lying, now? You know that's not what I did. I asked him what he was refering to when he said "this", not to give me a ******* definition.

It's pretty damned frustrating that you not-so-subtly accuse me of debating dishonestly when you then go and lie about what's being discussed.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:54 AM   #126
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Okay so, to pull us back on topic a little and hopefully back on a good track.

Does AOC represent some viable future for the Democratic Party?
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:01 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so, to pull us back on topic a little and hopefully back on a good track.

Does AOC represent some viable future for the Democratic Party?
I'd say she represents a viable future for a left wing political party, but she and her similarly minded cohort may need to split into a new party to achieve anything. The current old guard Democrats may have to die out before AOC et al have a chance there.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:13 AM   #128
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I don't know if this something I believe personally, but it might be valid. AOC* might be case of some part of the Democrat's base mistaking where they want the party to end up and not recognizing that's not the same thing as a valid way to get there.

AOC might be just another idealist who never gets anything done because they mistake the ends for the means. The Goal is not the Strategy is often missed in politics.

*Slight hijack. Has Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez ever objected to the "AOC" moniker? It's almost universally how she is referred to, both by detractors and supporters.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:14 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'd say she represents a viable future for a left wing political party, but she and her similarly minded cohort may need to split into a new party to achieve anything.
Not sure that would net them enough voters for a win, though. I'd say she might have to compromise, but that's still under contention.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:37 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
For many individual candidates that's true. For the Democratic Party as a whole it seems like a bad strategy.
Yes, it is. But most individual candidates will still pursue it, because their personal interests are more important than the party's interests. The only counter is if voters punish them for it. That's the only way to align their personal interests and the party's interests.

So, will voters punish them for such moves? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:48 AM   #131
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We've already seen a slight shift to the left in the democratic party. This can be seen both in the popularity and election of some of the more left leaning members and the policy positions being taken by the party and the presidential candidates.

We've also seen the pushback from those who want to keep things as they are.

I think a shift to the left within the party is inevitable. It's not a question of if, but how far and how fast.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:55 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
We've already seen a slight shift to the left in the democratic party. This can be seen both in the popularity and election of some of the more left leaning members and the policy positions being taken by the party and the presidential candidates.
Yeah we also saw them handed one of the biggest political defeats and one the largest single day losses of political power in modern American political history in 2016 and only a slight gain in 2018. I think you sort of have to factor that in.

"Yeah we lost the Presidency, any meaningful power in Congress, the Supreme Court, most state Governships and Legislatures... but look how popular we are with... ourselves" seems... less useful to me then it does to other.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:01 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah we also saw them handed one of the biggest political defeats and one the largest single day losses of political power in modern American political history in 2016 and only a slight gain in 2018.
Wasn't the 2018 gains historic?
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:05 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wasn't the 2018 gains historic?
If you want to call "A slim, none-Super, not veto proof majority in the less useful of the two Houses of Congress" historic.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:06 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you want to call "A slim, none-Super, not veto proof majority in the less useful of the two Houses of Congress" historic.
The gains, I said. Not the resulting majority.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:10 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The gains, I said. Not the resulting majority.
I mean sure if you want to argue the Democrats where the better boxer, I mean just look at these punches thrown to punches landed stats those are off the charts fine, but they are still the ones on the ground with stars around their head.

You don't get much more "trying to manufacturer a victory out of defeat" then basically creating a "Well we made an amazing comeback" but leaving out the fact that it wasn't enough to win the game narrative out of it.

If you're down by 40 points at halftime, scoring 20 points in the second half isn't a win even if scoring 20 points in a half is your personal best and an amazing feat. Sure I can, in and off itself, go "Yeah 20 points in a half is impressive, no arguments there" but... you still lost the game.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:16 AM   #137
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None of that changes the fact* that they made a big gain in 2018.

*: ETA, for some values of fact, see below.
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Old 28th March 2019, 08:44 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wasn't the 2018 gains historic?
No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...dterm_election

It was a bigger gain for dems (40 house seats) than many midterms, but not historically so. Both Obama and Clinton lost more House seats in their first midterms (63 and 54 respectively) than Trump did. And Trump got a small gain in the Senate whereas both Obama and Clinton lost Senate seats in their first midterms.

Bush gained House seats in his first midterm, but 9/11 was still fresh, so that election isn't really comparable. This was a significant gain for Dems, but I wouldn't categorize it as historical.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:14 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm sure you understand that I'm, again, speaking in general terms. If you're unwilling to compromise, then you want your representative to do what you want and ignore your neighbor and fellow citizens who disagree, and when they elect their own guy you're the one who gets the short end of the stick. And in the end no one wins because you're both too busy pulling the sheets back to your side every four years.
The Party includes many members of congress. It is desirable for them to not all be clones. A diversity among them could lead to some members connecting well with fund raisers while others are better at being prepared and asking meaningful questions during hearings. Some may be great at reaching across the aisle while others are better at moving ideas from the fringes into the limelight for real consideration. There is no reason to ask every member to be the same. It is good to have people in the same party in the same branch of government who have common goals but different ideas and different strategies.

Sometimes you need to be diplomatic and sometimes you need a sniper, or a boxer, or a swordsman. If you only brought diplomats to the party they are not going to perform well when the later are required. Limiting the party to only compromisers will get you nowhere.

Need evidence: ask Nancy why she didn't compromise with Trump when he shut down the government.
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Old 28th March 2019, 09:19 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Sometimes you need to be diplomatic and sometimes you need a sniper, or a boxer, or a swordsman. If you only brought diplomats to the party they are not going to perform well when the later are required. Limiting the party to only compromisers will get you nowhere.

Need evidence: ask Nancy why she didn't compromise with Trump when he shut down the government.
But she doesn't always not compromise. That's the point.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:01 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But she doesn't always not compromise. That's the point.
Does AOC always not compromise?

Does Mitch McConnell always not compromise?

Do boxers always hit people they disagree with?
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:08 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wasn't the 2018 gains historic?
TFW you're so far behind that your yugest ever success barely puts you ahead of even.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:15 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If you want to call "A slim, none-Super, not veto proof majority in the less useful of the two Houses of Congress" historic.
You have to factor not only seats won but also seats not won only because of an insane level of gerrymandering and seats that still lost but gained large increases in vote percentage compared to previous elections.

That gives a much better view of overall change
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:20 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
You have to factor not only seats won but also seats not won only because of an insane level of gerrymandering and seats that still lost but gained large increases in vote percentage compared to previous elections.

That gives a much better view of overall change
And that's another wonderful thing to put into the "Well we lost but it's not our fault book." It's a lovely book, full of valid things that I 100% agree are true.
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Old 28th March 2019, 10:34 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's another wonderful thing to put into the "Well we lost but it's not our fault book." It's a lovely book, full of valid things that I 100% agree are true.
Except we were talking about what direction the party was moving in so I don't know why you're arguing about this instead
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:09 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Except we were talking about what direction the party was moving in so I don't know why you're arguing about this instead
If gaining seats is ho-hum, please also characterize losing the same number of seats.
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Old 28th March 2019, 04:04 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wasn't the 2018 gains historic?
Yes, but you can see people downplaying that fact. The tea party gained less in Obama's first mid-term and they called that epic.
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Old 28th March 2019, 07:49 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
If gaining seats is ho-hum, please also characterize losing the same number of seats.
I don't understand what you're saying or how it relates to what I was saying.

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Old 28th March 2019, 08:34 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
I don't understand what you're saying or how it relates to what I was saying.
Mistargeted, my mistake.

ETA: However, I'm also going to remind myself not to get sucked into yet another conversation rehashing 2016/2018. :9

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Old 28th March 2019, 09:34 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
TFW you're so far behind that your yugest ever success barely puts you ahead of even.
The seven point republican handicap needs to be considered.
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Old 29th March 2019, 07:19 AM   #151
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The DCCC can say that this is all about making sure they keep a majority by not putting a left-wing reactionary into a close election, and they can make a good argument. The part they leave out is the Centrist/Blue-Dog Dems clogging up a bunch of deep blue congressional districts that would never go for a Republican in a million years.

Joe Crowley was a typical pro-Wall street white guy living in Virginia but somehow representing a lower income, 70% POC district in New York. The GOP was never going to win that seat, and without a primary challenge, it was his for as long as he wanted it. He was an establishment pol, who was even being mentioned as a replacement for Pelosi amongst the DC political class. He hadn’t faced a serious election threat for over a decade before AOC rolled over him.

He would not have lasted that long in a close electoral district, but he held on for decades without much effort because it was a blue district and he was a Democrat. Those are the guys that the DCCC is looking out for, and the only way that liberal Democrats can get rid of these losers is with primary challenges.
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Old 29th March 2019, 07:31 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Does AOC always not compromise?
I'm not sure. I was told that what people like about her is that she doesn't.

Quote:
Does Mitch McConnell always not compromise?
No, the man's like a terminator. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.
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Old 29th March 2019, 07:33 AM   #153
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Balancing knowing when to compromise and when to stick to your guns is.... like the one thing we sort of have to expect from our elected officials.

If every hill is a hill to die defending you will only be an effective elected official in an environment where there is literally no opposition. Compromising all the time and the question becomes why are you even there?
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Old 29th March 2019, 07:36 AM   #154
theprestige
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The seven point republican handicap needs to be considered.
I have no opinion about that.
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Old 30th March 2019, 03:44 AM   #155
Random
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Oooooh! I missed this one! Joe Crowley went corporate lobbyist for a firm that represents big oil and folks who want to eliminate the estate tax!

https://news.littlesis.org/2019/02/2...ate-tax-group/
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Old 30th March 2019, 04:30 AM   #156
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Oooooh! I missed this one! Joe Crowley went corporate lobbyist for a firm that represents big oil and folks who want to eliminate the estate tax!

https://news.littlesis.org/2019/02/2...ate-tax-group/
Also the group promoting the bipartisan Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act, a far more functional bill than AOCs GND.

Although to be fair, I think even the EICDA is flawed and doomed to fail.
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Old 30th March 2019, 04:58 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Also the group promoting the bipartisan Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act, a far more functional bill than AOCs GND.

Although to be fair, I think even the EICDA is flawed and doomed to fail.
Yeah, it's way too small. It might have been a good plan twenty-five years ago, but things have progressed too far in the meantime. It's just not aggressive enough.

Of course, some would say that they perfect should not be the enemy of the good, every little bit helps, blah, blah, blah. In practice however, people tend to look at band-aid solutions like this as a solution in and of itself, and use them as an excuse not to make the more radical changes that are actually needed.
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Old 30th March 2019, 05:16 AM   #158
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have no opinion about that.
I didn't solicit you for one. I would have better success asking a blnd person about color.
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Old 30th March 2019, 05:38 AM   #159
theprestige
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't solicit you for one. I would have better success asking a blnd person about color.
I have no opinion about that, either.

If you don't want my opinion, don't reply to my posts.
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Old 30th March 2019, 05:43 AM   #160
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have no opinion about that, either.

If you don't want my opinion, don't reply to my posts.
No. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to keep replying to your posts with no expectation from you to have an opinion on my statements.
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