ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:08 PM   #1
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Federal response to hurricanes

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No, you're the one failing to understand: You asked which positions are relevant for a catastrophe and I said it depends. Then I mentioned Katrina, which is merely and example of how FEMA would be the position in question for this specific catastrophe. This specific example of "Which Positions for Which Catastrophe" merely happened to occur under GWB's watch and was never intended as a comment on Trump's competency, since that wasn't addressed in the question you asked.
But there have actually been serious hurricanes under Trump. And Trump's FEMA apparently handled them better than Bush's.

So that's contradictory evidence (and not speculative either) to the assertion that Trump is uniquely unprepared to handle catastrophes.

Quote:
No, unlike you I was paying attention to the question I was answering:
But ignoring why that question was relevant in the first place.

Mod InfoMoved from here
Posted By:kmortis
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by kmortis; 23rd April 2019 at 08:13 AM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:18 PM   #2
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But there have actually been serious hurricanes under Trump. And Trump's FEMA apparently handled them better than Bush's.
Have you not noticed the entropy in Trump's administration? As we devolve from a competent president (Obama) to an incompetent (Trump) there is an inertia from the former competency that gradually deteriorates due to the current incompetency. If Katrina had happened in 2001 I expect the response from the Bush administration would have been much better. By 2005, however, the incompetency had eroded sufficiently to the point that it was a catastrophe.

Plus, I wouldn't call the response in Puerto Rico "competent"...and that was in Trump's first year.

Quote:
So that's contradictory evidence (and not speculative either) to the assertion that Trump is uniquely unprepared to handle catastrophes.
It should be clear from my previous response that I disagree.



Quote:
But ignoring why that question was relevant in the first place.
You asked which services are important in a catastrophe. I took that as a general tangential question that at least could be asked of any administration and I answered it as such. I felt like you were trying to pin me down to certain services being important when the fact is it depends on the catastrophe. That's the truthful answer to your question whether you like it or not.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:37 PM   #3
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Plus, I wouldn't call the response in Puerto Rico "competent"...and that was in Trump's first year.
Big surprise: when local government is a joke, the federal response can't make up for that. The federal response wasn't the problem there. (Honestly, it wasn't really the problem with Katrina either)

Quote:
It should be clear from my previous response that I disagree.
Sure, but so what?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:44 PM   #4
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,306
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Big surprise: when local government is a joke, the federal response can't make up for that. The federal response wasn't the problem there. (Honestly, it wasn't really the problem with Katrina either)
What's a joke is Trump and his administration. Corrupt and massively incompetent.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:47 PM   #5
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,000
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Sure. The testimony of his own administration.



You should be able to figure it out on your own, but since you evidently can't: It depends on the catastrophe.

I bet that just blew your mind, didn't it?

For a specific example from the past, how about GWB's FEMA response to Katrina.

Again, are you playing dumb just to be contrary? It honestly seems that way. I truly believe if you applied yourself at all you could have up with the same answers you had to ask me for.
Makes me wonder how many positions in the US government are actually relevant to a catastrophe.

If a hurricane is making landfall, the Acting Assistant to the Regional Postmaster for the Dakotas can probably fill in for the Assistant to the Regional Postmaster for the Dakotas. On the other hand, it might be nice to have a Director of FEMA, an Assistant Director, or an Acting Director, at least. It's probably a good idea to have at least a quorum of the Joint Chiefs, or their deputies or acting chiefs at least, on hand at all times.

Some kind of international crisis, you'll probably want a Secretary of State, or acting etc. at least. But probably don't really need a Special Cultural Attache for Transgender Rights in Developing Nations or whatever. Unless that's the actual catastrophe for some reason. In which case there's probably a lot of diplomats at State who can fill in.

I'm having a hard time imagining a catastrophe that would demand the immediate filling of an empty federal judgeship.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:51 PM   #6
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Big surprise: when local government is a joke, the federal response can't make up for that. The federal response wasn't the problem there. (Honestly, it wasn't really the problem with Katrina either)
It's the local government's fault that Puerto Rico didn't get enough federal aid, unlike Texas and Florida (in the same hurricane season), which DID? Fascinating; tell me more.



Quote:
Sure, but so what?
I never expected you to care, but I thought you'd at least go to the trouble of addressing the support I gave to my position.

If your response is "so what", like "what do I care", why the hell are you even bothering to debate??? This merely reinforces my opinion you are just playing dumb to be contrary...You lose the debate and whine, "So what?"
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 12:53 PM   #7
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Makes me wonder how many positions in the US government are actually relevant to a catastrophe.

If a hurricane is making landfall, the Acting Assistant to the Regional Postmaster for the Dakotas can probably fill in for the Assistant to the Regional Postmaster for the Dakotas. On the other hand, it might be nice to have a Director of FEMA, an Assistant Director, or an Acting Director, at least. It's probably a good idea to have at least a quorum of the Joint Chiefs, or their deputies or acting chiefs at least, on hand at all times.

Some kind of international crisis, you'll probably want a Secretary of State, or acting etc. at least. But probably don't really need a Special Cultural Attache for Transgender Rights in Developing Nations or whatever. Unless that's the actual catastrophe for some reason. In which case there's probably a lot of diplomats at State who can fill in.

I'm having a hard time imagining a catastrophe that would demand the immediate filling of an empty federal judgeship.
So what?

See, this (the post I quoted) is a sarcastic, smart-ass response that deserves a "So what?"

I see absolutely nothing of value in theprestige's post.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:04 PM   #8
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,000
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
So what?

See, this (the post I quoted) is a sarcastic, smart-ass response that deserves a "So what?"

I see absolutely nothing of value in theprestige's post.
Right?

You're concerned about the nation facing an existential crisis with key positions unfilled. But you refuse to name any such critical positions that are currently unfilled.

Can you at least name what you consider to be the most important unfilled position in the Executive branch right now? The one that you think exposes the nation to the most risk at the moment?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:05 PM   #9
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It's the local government's fault that Puerto Rico didn't get enough federal aid, unlike Texas and Florida (in the same hurricane season), which DID? Fascinating; tell me more.
How much money did each of them get? And how do you measure what counts as "enough"?

I doubt you actually have any substance behind this allegation.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:11 PM   #10
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,963
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And who decided to take them from that list?
Are you praising Trump for not having his own opinion and just using what's fed to him?
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:13 PM   #11
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,293
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Are you praising Trump for not having his own opinion and just using what's fed to him?
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:20 PM   #12
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Are you praising Trump for not having his own opinion and just using what's fed to him?
Do you think Republican voters care? Why would they?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:26 PM   #13
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Right?

You're concerned about the nation facing an existential crisis with key positions unfilled. But you refuse to name any such critical positions that are currently unfilled.
Existential? Please quote me where I described the hypothetical crisis as "existential". That's your word, not mine, and as such I will ignore it beyond this comment.

Additionally, as I have already explained, the nature of the catastrophe determines the services necessary. If it's a measles outbreak (or something along those lines) the CDC would be important. Were it a nuclear power plant disaster, I would expect the Dept of Energy would be important (though I will admit I'm not sure about that, but then again, it's not my responsibility).

Quote:
Can you at least name what you consider to be the most important unfilled position in the Executive branch right now? The one that you think exposes the nation to the most risk at the moment?
No, I'll admit I don't think I can do that. Not only does it depend on the nature of the catastrophe, I have nowhere near a complete knowledge of who fills what position. But why do you restrict it to "unfilled"? Incompetence can also ruin an effective response to a catastrophe. Do you not see incompetence and nepotism throughout the Trump administration? If you don't it's only because you choose not to look. For example, I saw today that Herman Cain declined (fortunately) the nomination to the Federal Reserve Board. Do you consider Herman Cain competent for that position?
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:34 PM   #14
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How much money did each of them get?
Quote:
According to the study, within nine days of landfall in the U.S. for Harvey and Irma, survivors in Texas and Florida received approximately $100 million in Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) funds, while María survivors received about $6 million in FEMA assistance in the same amount of time.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-p...texas-florida/


Quote:
And how do you measure what counts as "enough"?
There's so many variables in that question I don't think anyone can give a succinct answer (the greater the catastrophe the more funds are necessary) and I'm not in the business of analyzing catastrophic recovery. However, it doesn't take a genius to note the disparity in Puerto Rico receiving only 6% of what Texas or Florida did.


Quote:
I doubt you actually have any substance behind this allegation.
I consider quoting the disparity in the federal aid received by each as being substantial.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 01:43 PM   #15
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
The feds have allocated many billions of dollars for both Harvey and Maria. Why is the response window of the first 9 days the primary metric?

And one of the other metrics used in your story, the number of on-site federal personnel (19 PR vs 31k TX) is completely pointless without comparison of the populations they were serving. Puerto Rico has a population of about 3.3 million. Texas has a population of about 28 million, and while not all of them were hit by Harvey, more than 3.3 million of them were.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 02:17 PM   #16
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The feds have allocated many billions of dollars for both Harvey and Maria. Why is the response window of the first 9 days the primary metric?
I didn't say it was, I was merely noting the disparity. And despite you're apparent reluctance to admit it, speed of response is important. How about this:

Quote:
While federal lawmakers approved $15.25 billion for Texas and Florida in disaster aid grants in September 2017, Puerto Rico was only offered $4.9 billion in the form of a loan. FEMA and the Treasury Department decided not to give Puerto Rico this disaster loan because its cash balance was too high. A bill finally signed by Trump in February 2018 – five months after María – gave Puerto Rico money on the condition that the island establish a 12-month and 24-month recovery plan endorsed by the PROMESA oversight board. Texas and Florida got funds without these conditions. Trump, though, has indicated he wants to use the nearly $14 billion allocated in disaster relief money for Puerto Rico, Florida, Texas and California to pay for a border wall.
From: https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/...r-major-storms


Quote:
And one of the other metrics used in your story, the number of on-site federal personnel (19 PR vs 31k TX) is completely pointless without comparison of the populations they were serving. Puerto Rico has a population of about 3.3 million. Texas has a population of about 28 million, and while not all of them were hit by Harvey, more than 3.3 million of them were.
Infrastructure damage is also a factor. I'll acknowledge I don't have an extensive knowledge of the relative damage done vs recovery money among Harvey/Irma/Maria, but it's hard to miss the disparity in federal aid among them, as well as the disparity in results:



Quote:
For Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico, NOAA notes that the death toll is highly uncertain. The count for direct deaths by the federal government at this time is 65, with federal reports listing an unknown number for indirect deaths.6 The Puerto Rican Government and George Washington University reviewed mortality data, and in August 2019 released updated, official mortality estimates.18 Total excess mortality is used as the current, most accurate available proxy for indirect deaths from Hurricane Maria. It is a modelled number based on changes in the mortality rate predisaster and postdisaster rather than careful examination of death certificates, due to inaccuracies in reporting cause of death on death certificates in Puerto Rico. This research indicates that total excess mortality post-landfall between September 2018–February 2018 total 2975.18 The risk of death was found to be 45% higher, persisting through the end of the study period for individuals living in municipalities of low socioeconomic development,18 greatly exacerbating pre-existing health inequalities. There have been no other substantial changes in acute threats to mortality besides Hurricane Maria that may account for the significant increase in deaths immediately post-landfall.18 19 Even taking the official death toll at face value, the mortality counts for Maria—as an indicator of need and severity—are commensurate with both Harvey and Irma, requiring a response at least on par with both prior responses. Considering the severe undercount of indirect deaths associated with Maria, the federal response has been inadequate.
Relevant Graph: https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/4/1...600&carousel=1

From: https://gh.bmj.com/content/4/1/e001191
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 02:35 PM   #17
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,019
Oh. Are we blaming the local government for bad hurricane response? Good ol’ Katrina playbook defense in action.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 02:37 PM   #18
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Infrastructure damage is also a factor. I'll acknowledge I don't have an extensive knowledge of the relative damage done vs recovery money among Harvey/Irma/Maria
Here are the official figures:

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/news/UpdatedCostliest.pdf

Harvey: $125 billion
Maria: $90 billion

Quote:
but it's hard to miss the disparity in federal aid among them, as well as the disparity in results:
As with Katrina, the death toll is dominated by local factors, not federal aid. Puerto Rico's electricity and water infrastructure was on the verge of collapse from years of mismanagement before the storm, and could not be brought back up quickly. That's why many elderly and sick died in the aftermath.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 02:40 PM   #19
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Oh. Are we blaming the local government for bad hurricane response? Good ol’ Katrina playbook defense in action.
Local governments will ALWAYS have primary responsibility for both disaster preparedness and disaster relief. That isn't news to anyone with a clue. Nor is it news that both Puerto Rico and New Orleans had particularly bad governments.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:06 PM   #20
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,019
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Local governments will ALWAYS have primary responsibility for both disaster preparedness and disaster relief. That isn't news to anyone with a clue. Nor is it news that both Puerto Rico and New Orleans had particularly bad governments.
Local governments have a responsibility, certainly. But they can get overwhelmed. Their systems may have limitations. Their rescue units can get destroyed/damaged/stuck. There's a host of things that can go wrong when you have only your local resources to work with.

That's why we have Federal systems to coordinate and control relief from the outside.

But no. You have a President who claimed that Puerto Rico's electrical system was dead before the hurricane hit to excuse his inability to get things running again. (It had weaknesses, sure, but it was not 'dead').

I've been through this Katrina crap with SunMaster back in the day (remember him, constantly whined if Obama took a golf trip?). He tried the same tactic. Failed.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:11 PM   #21
W.D.Clinger
Illuminator
 
W.D.Clinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,574
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But there have actually been serious hurricanes under Trump.
Thanks, Obama.

Oh, wait, the hurricanes were Mueller's fault! I must have forgotten what this thread is about.
W.D.Clinger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:13 PM   #22
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Here are the official figures:

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/news/UpdatedCostliest.pdf

Harvey: $125 billion
Maria: $90 billion

Oh, so Maria had 72% of the damage that Harvey had. Then why didn't they at least get 72% of the federal aid that Harvey had?



Quote:
As with Katrina, the death toll is dominated by local factors, not federal aid. Puerto Rico's electricity and water infrastructure was on the verge of collapse from years of mismanagement before the storm, and could not be brought back up quickly. That's why many elderly and sick died in the aftermath.

And that, of course, justifies why Puerto Rico received so much less federal aid proportionally. But sure, the difference in recovery just couldn't possibly have anything to do with the disparity in federal aid.

Must. Find. A. Scapegoat. Other. Than. Trump.
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:14 PM   #23
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,306
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Local governments have a responsibility, certainly. But they can get overwhelmed. Their systems may have limitations. Their rescue units can get destroyed/damaged/stuck. There's a host of things that can go wrong when you have only your local resources to work with.

That's why we have Federal systems to coordinate and control relief from the outside.

But no. You have a President who claimed that Puerto Rico's electrical system was dead before the hurricane hit to excuse his inability to get things running again. (It had weaknesses, sure, but it was not 'dead').

I've been through this Katrina crap with SunMaster back in the day (remember him, constantly whined if Obama took a golf trip?). He tried the same tactic. Failed.
Its ridiculous to compare disasters. Costs and damages differ. Infrastructure and communities differ. Geographies differ.

Is it possible or likely that a poor community will have a more difficult time responding to a disaster? Hell yeah. But so what? You do what needs to be done.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:18 PM   #24
Safe-Keeper
Philosopher
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,298
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so Maria had 72% of the damage that Harvey had. Then why didn't they at least get 72% of the federal aid that Harvey had?

And that, of course, justifies why Puerto Rico received so much less federal aid proportionally. But sure, the difference in recovery just couldn't possibly have anything to do with the disparity in federal aid.

Must. Find. A. Scapegoat. Other. Than. Trump.
Standard trumpkin behaviour. 99% of replies to Trump criticism seem to start with "but what about...". If you can't defend Trump, try to deflect. Change the topic. Insult. Anything but actually having to address the criticism. Trump clearly isn't meant to be challenged or criticised to these people.

Annoying as all heck when the more... edgy Palestine supporters or alternative health people did it ("butbutisrael!!2" and "butbutbigpharma!!1"), but Trump cultists take it to a whole new level.

Edit: my little brother, whom I strongly suspect was/is narcissistic, was actually like this when I was growing up. Anger outbursts, deflection, insults, smug remarks, flouncing out of the room, denial, playing dumb, whataboutisms, anything, no matter how silly, childish, or disproportionate, but taking responsibility for his actions or mistakes, no matter how serious or tiny and inconsequential. It was insufferable.

It's almost fascinating to see not just a man (Trump) acting like this, but to see it carry over to (seemingly) virtually all of his defenders as well. I anticipate psychologists and sociologists will study the Trump cult for decades to come.
__________________
In choosing to support humanitarian organizations, it's best to choose those that do not have "militant wings" (Mycroft, 2013)

Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 22nd April 2019 at 03:22 PM.
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:19 PM   #25
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,470
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Here are the official figures:

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/news/UpdatedCostliest.pdf

Harvey: $125 billion
Maria: $90 billion

(snip)
Just to emphasize: these are the estimated dollar costs of the damage, not the Federal aid in response.

To me that these are very real people, American citizens, in both cases who have undergone a tremendous blow to their health, safety, and very lives. We, as represented through the resources of our Federal government, morally owe them comparable help to restore their lives. The prior limitations of infrastructure inherent to the poverty of Puerto Rico, or their local government, or the difficulties of operating in an island environment do not change that. The fact that it is more difficult and expensive to restore power to Puerto Rico does not abrogate the need to do so. Upgrading the Puerto Rico infrastructure in doing so is a plus.

Last edited by Giordano; 22nd April 2019 at 03:23 PM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:25 PM   #26
Safe-Keeper
Philosopher
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,298
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Its ridiculous to compare disasters. Costs and damages differ. Infrastructure and communities differ. Geographies differ.

Is it possible or likely that a poor community will have a more difficult time responding to a disaster? Hell yeah. But so what? You do what needs to be done.
It's like responding to a medical emergency. If someone has a heart attack, you dispatch an ambulance, you do the recucitation, you get him to the hospital, you give him the care and rehabilitiation he needs to recover. You don't neglect him for then to say "durr, if he didn't want a heart attack he shouldn't have eaten so much junk food, hurr".

I know this, you know this, the Trump cultists know this. Yet when you for some reason want to defend someone who can't be defended, whataboutism and childishness is pretty much all you have.
__________________
In choosing to support humanitarian organizations, it's best to choose those that do not have "militant wings" (Mycroft, 2013)
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:58 PM   #27
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,306
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
It's like responding to a medical emergency. If someone has a heart attack, you dispatch an ambulance, you do the recucitation, you get him to the hospital, you give him the care and rehabilitiation he needs to recover. You don't neglect him for then to say "durr, if he didn't want a heart attack he shouldn't have eaten so much junk food, hurr".

I know this, you know this, the Trump cultists know this. Yet when you for some reason want to defend someone who can't be defended, whataboutism and childishness is pretty much all you have.
What you can't do is say we spent 50 million on this category 4 hurricane and 70 million on this other cat 4 hurricane so we're not going to spend more than 70 million on the next one.

There are NO APPLES to APPLES comparisons. None. Puerto Rico is father away and it's harder to respond to. Lineman can't get in their boom trucks and drive there. It's an island and its mountainous and the people are poorer and they have a different native language.
It's going to be harder and more expensive.

But they ARE AMERICANS. So GOD DAMN IT, Treat them like they are!
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume

Last edited by acbytesla; 22nd April 2019 at 04:00 PM.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:01 PM   #28
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What you can't do is say we spent 50 million on this category 4 hurricane and 70 million on this other hurricane so were not going to spend more than 70 million on the next one. There are NO APPLES to APPLES comparisons. None. Puerto Rico is father away and it's harder to respond to. Lineman can't get in their boom trucks and drive there. It's an island and its mountainous and the people are poorer and they have a different native language.
It's going to be harder and more expensive.

But they ARE AMERICANS. So GOD DAMN IT, Treat them like they are!
We didn’t spend millions on Puerto Rico recovery. We spent billions.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:16 PM   #29
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,306
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
We didn’t spend millions on Puerto Rico recovery. We spent billions.
Right over your head.

I know that. That wasn't the point.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:37 PM   #30
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so Maria had 72% of the damage that Harvey had. Then why didn't they at least get 72% of the federal aid that Harvey had?
How do know they didn’t? None of the figures presented so far are the total federal aid.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 05:40 PM   #31
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How do know they didn’t? None of the figures presented so far are the total federal aid.
Here's a graph of total aid 180 days after landfall:

Harvey: FEMA Money 1.5 Billion; In Survivor's Pockets 13 Billion

Total: 14.5 Billion

Maria: FEMA Money 1.15 Billion; In Survivor's Pockets 2.35 Billion

Total: 3.5 Billion

Using these numbers Puerto Rico received a little more than 24% of the federal aid that Texas did. That's in the first 180 days, so admittedly it may not be total federal aid, but while perhaps an excuse could be made for such a disparity after only 9 days, I fail to see any such excuse justifying such a disparity after 180 days.

Graph: https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/4/1...1/F1.large.jpg

From: https://gh.bmj.com/content/4/1/e001191

Note on terms:
Quote:
Cumulative dollars scaled in millions. For example, 5480 million dollars is equal to 5.48 billion dollars. Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) money refers to FEMA assistance to individuals and families.21 This includes applications by individuals currently residing in the USA post-Maria, as well as persons in Puerto Rico. In Survivor’s Pockets includes total count of federal aid to survivors by days post-landfall, including FEMA aid to individuals and families, Small Business Association Loans and National Flood Insurance payouts.22 Data references included in the online supplementary appendix 1. The authors recognise that line plots are the standard for reporting temporal data. Due to the gaps in data available from FEMA, line plots did not read well. The authors chose to instead report the data in bar charts in a series of critical time points.
(from the website linked above).
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 05:45 PM   #32
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 5,578
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Puerto Rico is father away and it's harder to respond to. Lineman can't get in their boom trucks and drive there. It's an island...
Not to mention it’s surrounded by water. Big water, ocean water.
__________________
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that...I will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” - President Donald J. Trump, January 20, 2017.
"And it's, frankly, disgusting the way the press is able to write whatever they want to write. And people should look into it." - President Donald J. Trump, October 11, 2017.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 06:12 PM   #33
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,019
Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
It's like responding to a medical emergency. If someone has a heart attack, you dispatch an ambulance, you do the recucitation, you get him to the hospital, you give him the care and rehabilitiation he needs to recover. You don't neglect him for then to say "durr, if he didn't want a heart attack he shouldn't have eaten so much junk food, hurr".

I know this, you know this, the Trump cultists know this. Yet when you for some reason want to defend someone who can't be defended, whataboutism and childishness is pretty much all you have.
The 'let's blame the local government' bit also irks me. You can have the best government with the best systems and they will still get overwhelmed. North Jersey was one of the richest regions of the USA but when Sandy hit they needed outside help.

Now the recovery after Sandy had faults but was relatively smooth. Mostly because the outside help was actually properly used to help and not hinder (such as with Katrina) and they did anticipate the need for supplies and crew (which was a failure at PR).

But no, the Trumpian types actually had fits that FEMA was prepping properly for Sandy. Rather than face up to their own failures they try to dump everything on the local government than admit that their last two Presidents have massive issues with toadies and incompetence.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 06:18 PM   #34
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,306
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
The 'let's blame the local government' bit also irks me. You can have the best government with the best systems and they will still get overwhelmed. North Jersey was one of the richest regions of the USA but when Sandy hit they needed outside help.

Now the recovery after Sandy had faults but was relatively smooth. Mostly because the outside help was actually properly used to help and not hinder (such as with Katrina) and they did anticipate the need for supplies and crew (which was a failure at PR).

But no, the Trumpian types actually had fits that FEMA was prepping properly for Sandy. Rather than face up to their own failures they try to dump everything on the local government than admit that their last two Presidents have massive issues with toadies and incompetence.
I remember the hissy fits that Republicans had when Christie worked with Obama as if he was a traitor.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 07:00 PM   #35
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,067
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Here's a graph of total aid 180 days after landfall:

Harvey: FEMA Money 1.5 Billion; In Survivor's Pockets 13 Billion

Total: 14.5 Billion

Maria: FEMA Money 1.15 Billion; In Survivor's Pockets 2.35 Billion

Total: 3.5 Billion

Using these numbers Puerto Rico received a little more than 24% of the federal aid that Texas did. That's in the first 180 days, so admittedly it may not be total federal aid, but while perhaps an excuse could be made for such a disparity after only 9 days, I fail to see any such excuse justifying such a disparity after 180 days.
First, it's still not close to the total federal spending. Second, unless you know exactly how those funds are distributed, I doubt you know what any difference in time scales means.

And third, after 180 days, we're not really in a catastrophe anymore, are we? The arguments used to criticize federal aid distribution in the wake of Maria vs. Harvey (such as political favoritism for Texas over Puerto Rico) aren't really relevant to the claim that Trump is unprepared to deal with a catastrophe.

ETA: There's actually another huge contributor to the disparity which has nothing to do with Trump: very few people in Puerto Rico had flood insurance. A lot more people i Texas did. And those "in pocket" numbers include payouts from the National Flood Insurance. You can't get a payout if you didn't have insurance. Trump isn't responsible for that.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

Last edited by Ziggurat; 22nd April 2019 at 07:14 PM.
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 08:28 PM   #36
Cabbage
Graduate Poster
 
Cabbage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,044
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, it's still not close to the total federal spending. Second, unless you know exactly how those funds are distributed, I doubt you know what any difference in time scales means.
If you have a cite that disagrees with mine, then by all means, post it.

Quote:
And third, after 180 days, we're not really in a catastrophe anymore, are we?
So? The graph is what is known as cumulative. I don't see how your claim is relevant in the slightest. Hell, weren't you just asking about total aid? Cut it off before 180 days and it's not total, is it? Also, I'm amused by the fact that, according to you, 9 days is too short and 180 days is evidently too long. So, Goldilocks, please tell me what time span is just right.

Quote:
The arguments used to criticize federal aid distribution in the wake of Maria vs. Harvey (such as political favoritism for Texas over Puerto Rico) aren't really relevant to the claim that Trump is unprepared to deal with a catastrophe.
Yeah, because we can overlook it if Trump is prepared but is merely playing favoritism instead. Saying words to the effect, "You can't use 'Trump sucks at X' to imply that 'Trump sucks at Y'" still has the conclusion that Trump sucks, whether it's due to unpreparedness or favoritism. And playing favoritism implies he is unprepared to be an impartial distibrutor of federal aid. "Yeah, Trump was prepared.....he just didn't feel like helping out, ya dig?"

Quote:
ETA: There's actually another huge contributor to the disparity which has nothing to do with Trump: very few people in Puerto Rico had flood insurance. A lot more people i Texas did. And those "in pocket" numbers include payouts from the National Flood Insurance. You can't get a payout if you didn't have insurance. Trump isn't responsible for that.
Do you have a cite that details just how much of the 3.5 B versus 14.5 B disparity this accounts for?
Cabbage is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd April 2019, 08:59 PM   #37
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,470
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
First, it's still not close to the total federal spending. Second, unless you know exactly how those funds are distributed, I doubt you know what any difference in time scales means.

And third, after 180 days, we're not really in a catastrophe anymore, are we? The arguments used to criticize federal aid distribution in the wake of Maria vs. Harvey (such as political favoritism for Texas over Puerto Rico) aren't really relevant to the claim that Trump is unprepared to deal with a catastrophe.

ETA: There's actually another huge contributor to the disparity which has nothing to do with Trump: very few people in Puerto Rico had flood insurance. A lot more people i Texas did. And those "in pocket" numbers include payouts from the National Flood Insurance. You can't get a payout if you didn't have insurance. Trump isn't responsible for that.
It is obvious that you are just making up excuses then just creating new excuses from thin air as your prior ones are disproven with the actual facts. And even contradicting your own positions when you first argue that the facts/data initially provided were not relevant because they were for time periods too soon after the hurricanes and then immediately turn around and argue that the long term figures presented in response to your own criticism are irrelevant because they extend to times after the immediate catastrophes. Perhaps you enjoy the spirit of the debate but this just undercuts anyone's inclination to believe any of your posts, including those that may be better based in facts and legitimacy

Last edited by Giordano; 22nd April 2019 at 09:15 PM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:27 AM   #38
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,054
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It's the local government's fault that Puerto Rico didn't get enough federal aid, unlike Texas and Florida (in the same hurricane season), which DID? Fascinating; tell me more.
That's their fault for not being real Americans. Of course the predatory investors making a killing in peurto rico would never let them become a state and lose their captive market.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 08:29 AM   #39
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,054
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Its ridiculous to compare disasters. Costs and damages differ. Infrastructure and communities differ. Geographies differ.

Is it possible or likely that a poor community will have a more difficult time responding to a disaster? Hell yeah. But so what? You do what needs to be done.
But not punishing the poor for choosing to be poor is downright unamerican.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd April 2019, 09:31 AM   #40
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,000
Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Existential? Please quote me where I described the hypothetical crisis as "existential". That's your word, not mine, and as such I will ignore it beyond this comment.

Additionally, as I have already explained, the nature of the catastrophe determines the services necessary. If it's a measles outbreak (or something along those lines) the CDC would be important. Were it a nuclear power plant disaster, I would expect the Dept of Energy would be important (though I will admit I'm not sure about that, but then again, it's not my responsibility).



No, I'll admit I don't think I can do that. Not only does it depend on the nature of the catastrophe, I have nowhere near a complete knowledge of who fills what position. But why do you restrict it to "unfilled"? Incompetence can also ruin an effective response to a catastrophe. Do you not see incompetence and nepotism throughout the Trump administration? If you don't it's only because you choose not to look. For example, I saw today that Herman Cain declined (fortunately) the nomination to the Federal Reserve Board. Do you consider Herman Cain competent for that position?
Herman Cain served on the board of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City for seven years, including two years as chairman of the Omaha Branch, two years as deputy chairman of the board, and two years as chairman. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be competent to do more of the same.

Anyway, this seems to be a vague concern, rather than a specific one. You're not pointing to any one unfilled or badly-filled position and saying, "this poses a special risk to the nation". You're saying simply that Trump could be doing it horribly wrong, but we won't find out until it actually happens. Whatever "it" is. Which we also won't know until "it" actually happens.

Meanwhile, every time "it" has happened so far, catastrophe has not emerged.

I used "existential crisis" to be clear about the degree of seriousness and concern I thought we were talking about. That's what "catastrophe" connotes, for me. If we're widening the definition to include bad policy, politically contentious policy, and bombastic tweets, then sure. For millions of Americans, everything Trump has done so far has been catastrophic. But then the issue becomes a lot less serious, and a lot less concerning. I was really hoping we could avoid boiling this down to partisan differences, but it seems like here we are. I'll try one more time.

The original claim (at the point I came into the conversation) was whether Trump has put the nation at risk of catastrophe by failing to fill one or more key positions in the Executive branch. I figure we can assess the risk by examining the positions in question. Maybe it's not as bad as we think. Failing to fill the position of Secretary of State is probably pretty risky. Failing to fill a federal judgeship is probably less risky.

But without specific positions to consider, there's no specific risks to assess. Just vague handwaving about imminent catastrophe. On the one hand, it's much easier to pitch the idea of grave danger, if you don't have to be specific about the danger. On the other hand, it's a lot harder to sell the idea of grave danger if your pitch doesn't actually include any specific dangers.

Take Herman Cain, for example. He's had more experience with Federal Reserve boards than Barack Obama had with the Presidency when he took office. Are you aware of any catastrophes that befell the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City during Cain's seven years on the board there? Did he embezzle funds? Bankrupt the institution? Devalue the currency? Whatever it is that a Fed Reserve board member can do to cause a catastrophe? Anything like that? Did you even know he'd been a Fed board member before, when you first heard that Trump nominated him?

I ask for specifics, and the closest you come is Herman Cain, who has experience with the job, and no history of catastrophe at the job that you can cite.

You also come close with the Department of Energy. Do you know who the current DOE secretary and deputy secretary are? How would you rate their catastrophic risk, compared to previous DOE secretaries?

Even if you just want to make general claims of incompetence across the board, those claims still have to be underpinned by evidence: Actual specific examples of incompetence. And since we're talking about catastrophes, it can't just be run of the mill "not very good at their jobs". And obviously it can't be partisan policy disagreements. We're talking about the risk of catastrophic incompetence in key positions in the Executive branch.

Like... Federal Reserve Board memberships?

Last edited by theprestige; 23rd April 2019 at 09:33 AM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:45 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.