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Old 7th May 2019, 03:39 PM   #121
Cabbage
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a good reason they don't look like the kind of power other dictators might want: They're not the kind of power a dictator would need to actually be a dictator.
I don't know, desires for money and adulation seem quite common among dictators. Sure, not everybody who desires money and adulation become dictators, but that's a BS argument: Very few of them ever become leaders of any significant sort.
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:48 PM   #122
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If he wanted to be dictator, it would have already manifested in his Presidency. The courts knocked down his travel restriction EO? Declare martial law or whatever and do it anyway. Instead, he just basically tried to fight it legally.

He thinks the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt? Fire him. Didn't happen.

He can't be a dictator because he doesn't have the actual power or will to act in an extra-legal manner. He doesn't have the support either.
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:49 PM   #123
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I'm conflicted here. I think seriously that even the fools who are propping up Trump and pretending he's normal in order to further their agendas would not go so far as to help him actually to destroy not only the substance of democracy but the appearance, and that some history of recent events shows that even his acolytes will balk at certain orders. I think Trump's minions will continue to play him and use him as long as they perceive they can get away with it, but when they can't they'll stampede.

On the other hand, recent history has also been a series of events about which many would have said "that couldn't happen" and then it did. The problem with this kind of thing is that we keep being surprised at how venial, short-sighted and just plain stupid some people can be.
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:56 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
I don't know, desires for money and adulation seem quite common among dictators. Sure, not everybody who desires money and adulation become dictators, but that's a BS argument: Very few of them ever become leaders of any significant sort.
What's the nature of your concern, here? That people who desire money and adulation *and* become president pose a serious risk of dictatorship?
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:00 PM   #125
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I think the toughest problem will be just physically removing him from the Oval Office. Once he gets an armlock on that American Flag he's there for the duration.
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:14 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I think the toughest problem will be just physically removing him from the Oval Office. Once he gets an armlock on that American Flag he's there for the duration.
Tase him, haul him out, burn the flag, replace it. Not such a tough problem after all. Even the joke hysteria is overblown.
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:19 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Is it time to give up on the idea that elections will even mean anything in 2020?
No.

Next!
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:54 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I agree that this time, it's less far-fetched than ever before.
Nonsense. The idea of Trump being president is still as far-fetched as ever.

Oh wait...
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Old 7th May 2019, 05:16 PM   #129
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Trump best have his bags packed, come vacation day. He'd be wise to only stop off at the tower long enough to collect whatever keepsakes he wants to bring to his dacha in Russia.

There are worse places to end up. And Trump better not be here when John gets here.
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Old 7th May 2019, 05:35 PM   #130
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He'd better not be here when Shosanna gets here either.

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Old 7th May 2019, 05:55 PM   #131
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My guess:
Trump will be screaming "election fraud" from about this time next year until he dies. Even if he wins.
Assuming he appears to have lost on election night, he and his supporters will file dozens, if not hundreds of lawsuits trying to overturn results. Most will be ridiculous and tossed but some may go up as far as the Supreme Court. Some may well be filed by Republican governors, senators, or state attorneys general.
The Supremes may do the right thing, or they may do as they did in 2000. I feel a bit better by believing the Chief Justice Roberts, while conservative, appears to be an honorable man.
Once the results are confirmed, and if in favor of the Democrat, Trump will continue to whine, sulk, tweet, and hold rallies. Some of his supporters may well attempt to take 2nd Amendment measures.
And finally on Jan 20, he'll simply slink away and not show up for the inauguration, before spending the rest of his life whining.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:05 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
And Trump better not be here when John gets here.
Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
He'd better not be here when Shosanna gets here either.
Don't forget Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner. And Billie Jean. No, the other Billie Jean. And Kris Kringle. He knows who's been naughty or nice.

And The Man. Trump better not be here when The Man comes to town.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:16 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Don't forget Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner. And Billie Jean. No, the other Billie Jean. And Kris Kringle. He knows who's been naughty or nice.

And The Man. Trump better not be here when The Man comes to town.
If a scalding-coffee-guzzling haint ain't gonna run him off, those mere mortals sure as hell ain't.

I don't think he'll be that hard to run off, but I could be wrong. He may have to be hauled off and dumped like a cur dog that keeps hanging around.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:18 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If he wanted to be dictator, it would have already manifested in his Presidency. The courts knocked down his travel restriction EO? Declare martial law or whatever and do it anyway. Instead, he just basically tried to fight it legally.

He thinks the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt? Fire him. Didn't happen.

He can't be a dictator because he doesn't have the actual power or will to act in an extra-legal manner. He doesn't have the support either.
This looks like the perfectly appropriate time to remind you and the others trying to argue this point that it has been admitted many in his administration refuse to follow through on his declarations. Like, for example, firing Mueller. You're getting the sanitized version, so I don't see how you can confidently make that claim.

Also, I think if America was ever going to become a dictatorship, it would have to be done gradually, akin to the old frog in boiling pot analogy. Do it to quickly and it's too far obvious, a vast majority will successfully protest. On the other hand, do it gradually and it's much more likely to be successful--Because you, theprestige, Ziggurat, and many others, along with Trump's Republican enablers will be perfectly fine with democracy slipping away, one gradual step at a time.

Now to preempt some BS responses that aren't actually paying attention to what I'm saying: Do I think that is likely to happen with Trump? Honestly, I have no idea, but he sure as hell is the most likely in my lifetime. Anyway, I'm not saying that it WILL happen; I'm saying that those of you pretending like this is all normal, fine, and not worthy of complaint are being foolishly dismissive. This presidency isn't normal (in a very negative way) at all.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:20 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What's the nature of your concern, here? That people who desire money and adulation *and* become president pose a serious risk of dictatorship?
The nature of my concern is the very real possibility of some sort of disaster for this presidency.

I think I've made that abundantly clear, provided you were actually paying attention to what I said.

Oh, and regarding your post as a question specific to the one you quoted, I'm pointing out that your opinion on what makes a dictator is hopelessly naive.

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Old 7th May 2019, 06:22 PM   #136
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Graduality is not an option for Trump. He's getting geriatric already.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:26 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Graduality is not an option for Trump. He's getting geriatric already.
You ignore the possibility that this is but one step for Republicans, not Trump, to destroy Democracy. They seem rather intent on at least going in that direction, with all the disenfranchisement, scams, gerrymandering and such.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:31 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's because the things he is taking don't look like the kind of power other dictators might want.

If you just want to say, Trump wants nothing but self-centered actions, that would make sense. But if you say he doesn't crave power, you aren't very observant.
"But he doesn't exhibit the sort of craving for power that dictators have."

There are different kinds of power, and different ways of desiring it. Trump may desire power, but not the way actual dictators do.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:41 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
You ignore the possibility that this is but one step for Republicans, not Trump, to destroy Democracy. They seem rather intent on at least going in that direction, with all the disenfranchisement, scams, gerrymandering and such.
While I suspect there is some truth in that, I don't think it's all Republicans, and I also don't think that those who are destroying democracy want it to be obvious. So I think that means that though they will happily do their best to rig elections they will not suspend them, and though they may do their best to contest close ones they will not nullify clear ones. At least I certainly hope.
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Old 7th May 2019, 06:42 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Trump would make an excellent figurehead monarch for a small country that wants attention. His bombast and excesses would be useful in that capacity.
Uganda comes to mind. There's been a precedent (hah!) for him.
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:13 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
The Secret Service would evict Donny Quisling? Aw hell, the White House janitors would be enough.

We're not talking about much of a man here.

He fired the head of the Secret Service and has been replacing agents with old bodyguards loyal to him.


Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What did Dobbs say? I haven't seen it and a quick Google didn't provide anything relevant.

I don't care much about Falwell. Dobbs is more influential.

Dobbs says six years should be added to Trump's term in office. Because of triple damages.



https://twitter.com/LouDobbs/status/1125158546184732672
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Old 8th May 2019, 12:02 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I remember this being a concern with George W. and with Nixon. It never happened. I certainly hope it doesn't happen with Trump because then I'd have to buy a gun and join a militia and that all sounds just exhausting.
Well yea, but neither of those was in legal hot water for ten counts of obstruction of justice after their first midterm - and that's just the federal stuff we know about.

Nixon probably arranged with Ford to be pardoned before he resigned. Unless Trump resigns and Pence pardons him, Trump is looking at life in prison for federal offenses.

Then there are state crimes no one can pardon. Trump may well be homeless, broke and in prison within two years of his presidency ending. That's the kind of pressure neither Nixon nor Bush 43 ever had to contemplate - and this is just the first half of his first term. Things can only go south from here. Plus he doesn't seem to be nearly as competent as either of those two.

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Old 8th May 2019, 12:08 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
While I suspect there is some truth in that, I don't think it's all Republicans, and I also don't think that those who are destroying democracy want it to be obvious. So I think that means that though they will happily do their best to rig elections they will not suspend them, and though they may do their best to contest close ones they will not nullify clear ones. At least I certainly hope.
There is absolutely no stomach in the US for a dictatorship. A small minority of extremists in both parties would welcome it as a way to stop the other main party from achieving their dangerous goals, but it doesn't go much further than that.

That is not to say Republican party embraces democracy, no. They happily abuse power and whine when their schemes go undone. They want to further flaw an already flawed democracy and rig it to their benefit. Yes, the logical end result of succeeding in that is indeed a dictatorship. But it's not some nefarious plot to undo the US democracy, no, they're just taking the next tiny step and are oblivious to the end result. Plus they don't mind dictatorships that are ruled by them, not to the point of caring anyway.

I expect them to face the reckoning soon though. Once you start winning by rigging the system left, right and center, there are only two possible results: your dictatorship or your evisceration and a slide into irrelevance.

Maybe then it will become possible to reform the US electoral system. It would require unprecendented statemanship by the Democrats, ceding power just after you wrestled it out of the paws of your chief foe, but it may be doable.

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Old 8th May 2019, 12:36 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
This looks like the perfectly appropriate time to remind you and the others trying to argue this point that it has been admitted many in his administration refuse to follow through on his declarations. Like, for example, firing Mueller. You're getting the sanitized version, so I don't see how you can confidently make that claim.

Also, I think if America was ever going to become a dictatorship, it would have to be done gradually, akin to the old frog in boiling pot analogy. Do it to quickly and it's too far obvious, a vast majority will successfully protest. On the other hand, do it gradually and it's much more likely to be successful--Because you, theprestige, Ziggurat, and many others, along with Trump's Republican enablers will be perfectly fine with democracy slipping away, one gradual step at a time.

Now to preempt some BS responses that aren't actually paying attention to what I'm saying: Do I think that is likely to happen with Trump? Honestly, I have no idea, but he sure as hell is the most likely in my lifetime. Anyway, I'm not saying that it WILL happen; I'm saying that those of you pretending like this is all normal, fine, and not worthy of complaint are being foolishly dismissive. This presidency isn't normal (in a very negative way) at all.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"But he doesn't exhibit the sort of craving for power that dictators have."

There are different kinds of power, and different ways of desiring it. Trump may desire power, but not the way actual dictators do.
OK, let's look at the current events.

Congress plans to subpoena Trump's taxes, Mnuchin is refusing. Barr refused to testify before the House. He is refusing to release Mueller's unredacted report. Steve Bannon was just in an interview laughing about how clever it was for Trump to declare a national emergency because it gave Trump any power he wants.
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Old 8th May 2019, 12:40 AM   #145
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Here's the thing about a coup, it's Game of Thrones, you win or you die. Coups don't end up with negotiated settlements. You either win everything or you get destroyed. Trump doesn't seem like the kind of guy who plays that way. For trump to stay in power, all the main agency heads who have law enforcement personnel, the SECDEF, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, along with significant portions of their senior staffs would have to back his play. Most American general/flag officers are intensely apolitical. Then, he would need backing of the senior executive service in key agencies and the senior civil servants.

Considering that even DHS ignores his unlawful orders now, what are the odds he could pull all that together in the face of a lost election? Anyone on the above list who does back his play, at the least risks career suicide and or prison.

I could see the stupid bitch doing petulant things like not letting transition teams into the executive agencies or even not allowing a traditional ceremony. He won't risk prison on such long odds.
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Old 8th May 2019, 12:49 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Here's the thing about a coup, it's Game of Thrones, you win or you die. Coups don't end up with negotiated settlements. You either win everything or you get destroyed. Trump doesn't seem like the kind of guy who plays that way. For trump to stay in power, all the main agency heads who have law enforcement personnel, the SECDEF, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, along with significant portions of their senior staffs would have to back his play. Most American general/flag officers are intensely apolitical. Then, he would need backing of the senior executive service in key agencies and the senior civil servants.

Considering that even DHS ignores his unlawful orders now, what are the odds he could pull all that together in the face of a lost election? Anyone on the above list who does back his play, at the least risks career suicide and or prison.

I could see the stupid bitch doing petulant things like not letting transition teams into the executive agencies or even not allowing a traditional ceremony. He won't risk prison on such long odds.
Zero IMO. Like I said earlier, his army isn't big enough.
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Old 8th May 2019, 12:57 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Zero IMO. Like I said earlier, his army isn't big enough.
Not only is the military not big enough for a coup to work, his popularity among military members is not in the "betray your oath" range.
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Old 8th May 2019, 01:11 AM   #148
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But Trump is masterful in his use of ambiguity.
Some kind of people would support his coup as long as he provides a narrative under which it isn't one.
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Old 8th May 2019, 01:46 AM   #149
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All this is is a power fantasy for Trumpistas expressed as a way to trigger the libs.

Worry about winning an election that's already rigged beyond repair for the GOP. Manage that and we'll all get the pleasure of eventually seeing the orange moron go to the big house.
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Old 8th May 2019, 01:52 AM   #150
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At this point, 2020 is a game of narratives.
According to Trump, he deserves two more years just because of Mueller.
According to Dems, he didn't deserve the two he had.

It's haggling.
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:20 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But Trump is masterful in his use of ambiguity.
Some kind of people would support his coup as long as he provides a narrative under which it isn't one.
What he may do is encourage the "2nd amendment people" to do something and let them get shot and arrested (remember, they have to come throu some really blue palaces to stop a peaceful exchange of power) and see if the coalesces into something viable. However, looking at the 100 percent risk he expects banks and investors take in his development projects, I doubt he will put himself on the line to stay in power. If he won't put his money at risk, he won't put himself at risk.

I have watched and served in Africa for a long time. I know from coups; you're either all in to the death or you're out. Trump shies away from stakes that high.
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:30 AM   #152
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Trump can't expect anyone in the US to give him a dime once he steps down.
He will probably join Giuliani's business of lending legitimacy to anyone willing to pay for it.

But Trump's most important business of laundering money will be dead.

IMO, the greatest threat to Trump comes from his kids: once they realize that he will most likely cost them their inheritance, they might invoke the 25th themselves and have him committed.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:04 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
No agenda, absolutely. But what a motive! (To avoid--or at least delay--indictment.)
And continuing to ride the tiger is a pretty common situation for dictators to be in.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:06 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
He might try to get an extra 2 years, but after three months, the case would be settled and Trump kicked out.
Why would republican senators suddenly care about the obstruction of justice, instead of doing as they have done so far support Trump in his aims?
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:07 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
And to be clear, I don't at all expect Trump to actually stay in office if he loses in 2020. I absolutely think he will resist, but beyond some temporary static and some very real potential for some minor but significant spill over into the public (such as violence and vandalism from some supporters) I don't think he has any chance of succeeding.

If he wins in 2020, I think he will continue to degrade American institutions and ideals. I can't begin to predict where it will lead, but many things alarm me, and should alarm you, too.
Exactly this was trial balloon to see how the base would react. Just like all his "jokes".
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:09 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
He doesn't have a big enough army that would stand with him.
Does he need one though? Would the military overthrow him if he did this and got republicans to go along?
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:10 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's because the things he is taking don't look like the kind of power other dictators might want.

If you just want to say, Trump wants nothing but self-centered actions, that would make sense. But if you say he doesn't crave power, you aren't very observant.
And only understand fictional dictators not real ones.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:12 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If he wanted to be dictator, it would have already manifested in his Presidency. The courts knocked down his travel restriction EO? Declare martial law or whatever and do it anyway. Instead, he just basically tried to fight it legally.

He thinks the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt? Fire him. Didn't happen.
He tried though. Of course that totally doesn't count because his staff didn't obey him. And that is the point, the main thing preventing him is the parts of his own staff and party who will not support him. That isn't exactly a good argument against his wanting to be a dictator.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:15 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
This looks like the perfectly appropriate time to remind you and the others trying to argue this point that it has been admitted many in his administration refuse to follow through on his declarations. Like, for example, firing Mueller. You're getting the sanitized version, so I don't see how you can confidently make that claim.

Also, I think if America was ever going to become a dictatorship, it would have to be done gradually, akin to the old frog in boiling pot analogy. Do it to quickly and it's too far obvious, a vast majority will successfully protest. On the other hand, do it gradually and it's much more likely to be successful--Because you, theprestige, Ziggurat, and many others, along with Trump's Republican enablers will be perfectly fine with democracy slipping away, one gradual step at a time.

Now to preempt some BS responses that aren't actually paying attention to what I'm saying: Do I think that is likely to happen with Trump? Honestly, I have no idea, but he sure as hell is the most likely in my lifetime. Anyway, I'm not saying that it WILL happen; I'm saying that those of you pretending like this is all normal, fine, and not worthy of complaint are being foolishly dismissive. This presidency isn't normal (in a very negative way) at all.
And the problem is that people don't understand that dictators are actually popular with their people, they might have some criticisms of their excesses but they are viewed as the strong men needed for the situation. Look at Putin, he really is genuinely popular and yet I suspect most people here would not argue that this makes him not a dictator.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:17 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
There is absolutely no stomach in the US for a dictatorship. A small minority of extremists in both parties would welcome it as a way to stop the other main party from achieving their dangerous goals, but it doesn't go much further than that.
But how many have the stomach to stand up to their own party and its popular leader to preserve democracy?n We already know that obstruction of justice is the prerogative of the president now after all.
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