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Tags donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 8th May 2019, 04:19 AM   #161
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:19 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Here's the thing about a coup, it's Game of Thrones, you win or you die. Coups don't end up with negotiated settlements. You either win everything or you get destroyed. Trump doesn't seem like the kind of guy who plays that way. For trump to stay in power, all the main agency heads who have law enforcement personnel, the SECDEF, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, along with significant portions of their senior staffs would have to back his play. Most American general/flag officers are intensely apolitical. Then, he would need backing of the senior executive service in key agencies and the senior civil servants.

Considering that even DHS ignores his unlawful orders now, what are the odds he could pull all that together in the face of a lost election? Anyone on the above list who does back his play, at the least risks career suicide and or prison.

I could see the stupid bitch doing petulant things like not letting transition teams into the executive agencies or even not allowing a traditional ceremony. He won't risk prison on such long odds.
But how many dictators come into power with a coup? Turkey and Egypt are good examples of dictators who came into power through elections. You don't need a coup to become a dictator and many come into power by the erosion of democracy.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:21 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Not only is the military not big enough for a coup to work, his popularity among military members is not in the "betray your oath" range.
And if he and republicans suspended elections, would they coup to overthrow them? The military is a red herring in the whole debate, they are highly unlikely to either overthrow or preserve democracy in the US.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:35 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

Then there are state crimes no one can pardon. Trump may well be homeless, broke and in prison within two years of his presidency ending.

McHrozni
Governors can pardon state crimes.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:35 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OK, let's look at the current events.

Congress plans to subpoena Trump's taxes, Mnuchin is refusing.
Good. Heís right, it serves no legislative purpose.

Quote:
Barr refused to testify before the House.
He is refusing to testify under certain unusual conditions.

Quote:
He is refusing to release Mueller's unredacted report.
He doesnít have to release any of the report. Want to know why? Because thatís how Congress wrote the law.

Quote:
Steve Bannon was just in an interview laughing about how clever it was for Trump to declare a national emergency because it gave Trump any power he wants.
I donít trust for a second that your characterization is even remotely accurate. But regardless of what he might have said, itís simply not true. The Presidentís emergency declaration powers are quite limited in scope.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:41 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But how many dictators come into power with a coup? Turkey and Egypt are good examples of dictators who came into power through elections. You don't need a coup to become a dictator and many come into power by the erosion of democracy.
Yes, and we've been watching our democracy erode at an alarming rate this last 2 years.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:48 AM   #167
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As for eroding democracy, I can’t think of a better example than Georgia 2018.

One of the guys on the ballot was in charge of making sure the votes were.counted correctly. The Republicans just stood there and sald “don’t worry. This is totally acceptable.”

As for how far President Trump will go, is Trump the kind of person who believes his SCOTUS nominees will decide cases in his favor no matter what the issue? If so, we are in for a wild ride.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:52 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yes, and we've been watching our democracy erode at an alarming rate this last 2 years.
Hey, our president just floated the idea that his term be extended 2 years for no real reason whatsoever. Implicit in such a suggestion is that elections would be postponed. This is all just fine.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:52 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
As for how far President Trump will go, is Trump the kind of person who believes his SCOTUS nominees will decide cases in his favor no matter what the issue?
Yes. I'm certain that Trump secured an oath of loyalty from them prior to nominating them.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:53 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Hey, our president just floated the idea that his term be extended 2 years for no real reason whatsoever. Implicit in such a suggestion is that elections would be postponed. This is all just fine.
I hear he was joking. As he always does when what he says is unacceptable to even his supporters.
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Old 8th May 2019, 04:54 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Good. Heís right, it serves no legislative purpose.
It's not his place to refuse.
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Old 8th May 2019, 05:02 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Good. Heís right, it serves no legislative purpose.
Checks and balances. We have a president who said, ďI asked Putin if he was involved in any attempts to sway the election. I looked him in the eye, he said no, and I believe him.Ē

Surely that statement alone is enough to see what kind of business relationships the president has with Russia. And Trumpís hemming and hawing about the murder in Turkey is enough to look at his business relationships with the Saudis.

When the president sides with governments with bad human rights records over all his intelligence agencies, Congress has the right to know if it is profound misfeasance or profound malfeasance.
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Old 8th May 2019, 05:04 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not his place to refuse.
That particular law was written specifically because of people like Trump. Republicans think that laws do not apply to them.
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Old 8th May 2019, 05:53 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's not his place to refuse.
Yes it is. Congress can't just look at anyone's tax return just because it wants to. And if it's not his place to refuse, whose place is it? Who can say no to Congress when they demand something they aren't entitled to?
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Old 8th May 2019, 05:56 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes it is. Congress can't just look at anyone's tax return just because it wants to. And if it's not his place to refuse, whose place is it? Who can say no to Congress when they demand something they aren't entitled to?
yes, it can - the law says so.
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Old 8th May 2019, 06:07 AM   #176
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Oh please. Show me in the Constitution where it says Congress gets to make laws.
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Old 8th May 2019, 06:27 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Good. Heís right, it serves no legislative purpose.
That's because it serves a constitutional congressional oversight purpose. You do remember the Constitution, right? Trump seems to have forgotten it.
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Old 8th May 2019, 06:33 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes it is. Congress can't just look at anyone's tax return just because it wants to. And if it's not his place to refuse, whose place is it? Who can say no to Congress when they demand something they aren't entitled to?
What legal grounds does he have to refuse? The law says he shall provide it. Who cares if he disagrees?
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Old 8th May 2019, 06:36 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes it is. Congress can't just look at anyone's tax return just because it wants to. And if it's not his place to refuse, whose place is it? Who can say no to Congress when they demand something they aren't entitled to?
I mean, pretty obviously the Judiciary, which you'd know if you've read the Constitution. However, the courts won't agree with Mnuchin and Trump because of laws and what the aforementioned Constitution says.

...wait, weren't you just arguing that Trump not pushing toward autocracy, but are now arguing that Trump and his people are not subject oversight? That's weird. *shrug*
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:02 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I mean, pretty obviously the Judiciary, which you'd know if you've read the Constitution. However, the courts won't agree with Mnuchin and Trump because of laws and what the aforementioned Constitution says.

...wait, weren't you just arguing that Trump not pushing toward autocracy, but are now arguing that Trump and his people are not subject oversight? That's weird. *shrug*
The judiciary steps in to resolve disputes between Congress and the executive. But if there is no dispute, the judiciary doesnít step in. So Congress has no check if the executive branch simply rolls over.

And Congress has no oversight role over anyoneís personal finances.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:05 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The judiciary steps in to resolve disputes between Congress and the executive. But if there is no dispute, the judiciary doesnít step in. So Congress has no check if the executive branch simply rolls over.

And Congress has no oversight role over anyoneís personal finances.
strawman.

Congress has oversight over the administration, including IRS.
Trump says his taxes have been under audit for over two years - this is a strong indication that something with the IRS auditing process is flawed.
Congress needs to investigate.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:21 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What legal grounds does he have to refuse? The law says he shall provide it. Who cares if he disagrees?
Your position is not universally shared.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3381974
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:22 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
strawman.

Congress has oversight over the administration, including IRS.
Trump says his taxes have been under audit for over two years - this is a strong indication that something with the IRS auditing process is flawed.
Congress needs to investigate.
But that is explicitly not what they are investigating.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:25 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Your position is not universally shared.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3381974
Could you answer my question?
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:25 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But that is explicitly not what they are investigating.
yes it is.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:28 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
yes it is.
They are investigating the fact that audits take too long?

Yeah, no.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:29 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Could you answer my question?
That link describes legal grounds for refusal.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:31 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That link describes legal grounds for refusal.
I don't have an account there. Could you quote the relevant parts or summarize them in your own words?
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:33 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What he may do is encourage the "2nd amendment people" to do something and let them get shot and arrested (remember, they have to come throu some really blue palaces to stop a peaceful exchange of power) and see if the coalesces into something viable. However, looking at the 100 percent risk he expects banks and investors take in his development projects, I doubt he will put himself on the line to stay in power. If he won't put his money at risk, he won't put himself at risk.

I have watched and served in Africa for a long time. I know from coups; you're either all in to the death or you're out. Trump shies away from stakes that high.
Good point. Deep down he would stop short of believing the coup would work, and he'd be afraid of going to jail at a minimum.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:36 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump can't expect anyone in the US to give him a dime once he steps down.
He will probably join Giuliani's business of lending legitimacy to anyone willing to pay for it.

But Trump's most important business of laundering money will be dead.

IMO, the greatest threat to Trump comes from his kids: once they realize that he will most likely cost them their inheritance, they might invoke the 25th themselves and have him committed.
Well, there's still the money laundering business.

As for the inheritance, Trump already took care of that when he added the inheritance tax elimination when he was dealing with the GOP tax cuts.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:38 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why would republican senators suddenly care about the obstruction of justice, instead of doing as they have done so far support Trump in his aims?
The only way the GOP would not block Trump's impeachment is if a public mood change showed the GOP the light.

It could happen.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:43 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Does he need one though? Would the military overthrow him if he did this and got republicans to go along?
Yes the military would if he did something as stupid as refusing to give up power. But I don't think that would ever be tested because Trump really is a coward inside.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:46 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They are investigating the fact that audits take too long?

Yeah, no.
yes, the stated goal is to investigate how the IRS audits Presidents.

If you want to say that it is in fact politically, not legislatively motivated, then show me anything any Congress has ever done that wasn't both.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:47 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Well, there's still the money laundering business.

As for the inheritance, Trump already took care of that when he added the inheritance tax elimination when he was dealing with the GOP tax cuts.
too much heat: no one is going to use Trump for money laundering anymore.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:48 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But how many dictators come into power with a coup? Turkey and Egypt are good examples of dictators who came into power through elections. You don't need a coup to become a dictator and many come into power by the erosion of democracy.
Staying in power after losing an election would be a coup. Changing laws is another thing but Trump can't change his term of office or stay past two terms without changing laws.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:50 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The judiciary steps in to resolve disputes between Congress and the executive. But if there is no dispute, the judiciary doesn’t step in. So Congress has no check if the executive branch simply rolls over.

And Congress has no oversight role over anyone’s personal finances.
Just to address the last sentence in your posting ...

Congress does indeed have the right, and the duty, to investigate the personal finances of a sitting President if it appears that the President in question is doing illegal things with his personal finances while he is acting as the President.

Specifically, there is the emoluments clause in the US Constitution (Article 1, Section 9, Clause 8) which flat-out forbids anyone in an elected office (including the President) from taking said emoluments. And since does appear that Trump may be taking emoluments, then the personal finances of Trump are subject to Congressional scrutiny.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:51 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And if he and republicans suspended elections, would they coup to overthrow them? The military is a red herring in the whole debate, they are highly unlikely to either overthrow or preserve democracy in the US.
You might be mistaken in that it wouldn't be a bunch of soldiers deciding to follow the Congress, it would be a couple generals or admirals. Then there is the Secret Service, while Trump might have appointed some people at the top, he can't possibly replace enough people down the chain of command to eliminate any refusals down the line.

Like I said, his army isn't big enough.

And as was said up-thread, it would be a gamble I don't see Trump taking.

OTOH, Pelosi might be right when she says Trump might contest the election result if the margin is small.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:55 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Dobbs says six years should be added to Trump's term in office. Because of triple damages.



https://twitter.com/LouDobbs/status/1125158546184732672
Thanks. At this point, I'm not sure that Falwell and Dobbs aren't being facetious. If the talk turns serious, I'll be concerned.
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Old 8th May 2019, 07:58 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Good. He’s right, it serves no legislative purpose.
Dodges the point and you know it. You went straight from he's not interested in power to pretending those actions are not a contradiction because you believe Dear Leader's trumped up excuses for ignoring the Constitution.

Quote:
He is refusing to testify under certain unusual conditions.
Again, buying into this bull **** they are all playing ignores the point, Trump is defying the rules and grabbing power.

Quote:
He doesn’t have to release any of the report. Want to know why? Because that’s how Congress wrote the law.
Wrong. The Constitution overrides any legislative wording.

Quote:
I don’t trust for a second that your characterization is even remotely accurate. But regardless of what he might have said, it’s simply not true. The President’s emergency declaration powers are quite limited in scope.
When you drink the Trump Koolaid I imagine it looks that way to you.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:04 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
As for eroding democracy, I canít think of a better example than Georgia 2018.

One of the guys on the ballot was in charge of making sure the votes were.counted correctly. The Republicans just stood there and sald ďdonít worry. This is totally acceptable.Ē

As for how far President Trump will go, is Trump the kind of person who believes his SCOTUS nominees will decide cases in his favor no matter what the issue? If so, we are in for a wild ride.
I'm sure Trump believes his SCOTUS picks will pay him back. I'm not sure they will. The Federalist Society picked those justices because they hope to overturn Roe. And probably because they would make Scalia-like pro-business decisions. They weren't picked by Trump from his stable of peons and crazies.

Even if RapeyMcRapeface feels obligated to Trump, I can't see that Justice Roberts feels that way.
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