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Old 14th May 2019, 12:01 AM   #161
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Wow. Such dishonesty. Remember post #136?

No wonder nobody wants to engage with you. All you do is squirm.
I gave a list of scenarios and asked which cases should have which outcome. Somehow you talked about a formula I mentioned earlier would produce certain results. See how my question doesn't relate to that answer?
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:10 AM   #162
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No.
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:34 AM   #163
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From the outside one of the odd things is how for a national federal election, the rules applied to individual voters can differ across the USA. I wonder if any other country has a system where electoral rules for the same election for the same person differ across the country? Where different voters have different laws applied to them in how they can vote and whether 'faithless' votes are valid*. I have no problems with the concept that states can set the rules for state elections. I think there should be consistency across the electorate about voting rules.

The reality is the electoral college is in the constitution, given how long the last amendment took to pass abolishing the EC is unlikely in this century. A better solution is to have consistency in rules / laws about how the electors vote. The first pass the post rule in most states results in the effective disenfranchisement of minority voters; and the concentration of campaigning and policies on the few swing states. Making all states electors vote proportionately would correct this issue, the relative disparity in votes/population between e.g. ND and California is a trivial issue in comparison.

*Indeed it is a very odd democracy where if someone votes incorrectly the vote can be invalidated!
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Old 14th May 2019, 04:50 AM   #164
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I wish that literally anyone else on the planet had started this thread.
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:08 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I wish that literally anyone else on the planet had started this thread.
No one else would have started this thread. This isn't a generic, all in one, topic thread. It is purposely ideosyncratic.
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Old 14th May 2019, 05:24 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post

Under any of those scenarios, should person X win?
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Under your formula, person X wins in every case.
I have no idea why you think a question asking you who should win can be answered by saying some formula from earlier would produce a win in all those cases.


Also,you were wrong. Not every scenario presented would be a win for person X in the arbitrary formula I presented much earlier.
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Old 15th May 2019, 04:47 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No one else would have started this thread. This isn't a generic, all in one, topic thread. It is purposely ideosyncratic.
If you can manage to obtain a moment of ability, then kindly define that rather odd term "ideosyncratic" for those of us who have difficulty in following your exceptional logic.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:11 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no idea why you think a question asking you who should win can be answered by saying some formula from earlier would produce a win in all those cases.


Also,you were wrong. Not every scenario presented would be a win for person X in the arbitrary formula I presented much earlier.
The question is ambiguous. The formula produces a result. That result tells us who should win according to the formula.

Please clarify the parameters of your question. Do you intend the formula to be taken into account when answering, or not?
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Old 15th May 2019, 06:08 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The question is ambiguous. The formula produces a result. That result tells us who should win according to the formula.

Please clarify the parameters of your question. Do you intend the formula to be taken into account when answering, or not?
I thought the question was straightforward

Quote:
Suppose there are only two states: Wyoming and California.

Suppose 100% of Wyoming voter favor person X.

Here are a few vote splits for California for person X and Y

49/51
45/55
40/60
30/70
20/80
10/90

Under any of those scenarios, should person X win?

There is no mention of a formula. Nothing about a formula should be taken into account.
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Old 16th May 2019, 08:48 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I thought the question was straightforward
It was... at first. You asked who should win. JoeMorgue responded first, and his position is very clear and easy to understand:
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The person who got the most votes should win, regardless of how it was distributed across the states.
And then you reply...
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Nice joke post
You don't want the question answered according to the formula you made up. You don't want the question answered according to the electoral college as it currently exists (because you can just do that math yourself). You don't want a poster responding according the their own values regarding fairness, representation, etc.

Literally nobody, including yourself, knows what you want. You have to stop leaning on other people to generate some nebulous feeling of intellectual satisfaction for you. You need to generate it yourself.

And if you think the previous paragraph applies to only this thread, then your lack of self-awareness runs deeper than anyone could have imagined.
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Old 16th May 2019, 08:55 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I thought the question was straightforward




There is no mention of a formula. Nothing about a formula should be taken into account.
It was a follow on to an exchange about a formula, which you introduced. In that context, thinking the formula was to be applied is reasonable. But okay, you didn't mean for the formula you'd just been talking about to be applied to the scenario you introduced immediately afterwards.

In that case, I'm with IATS's response above.
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Old 16th May 2019, 01:07 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
It was... at first. You asked who should win. JoeMorgue responded first, and his position is very clear and easy to understand:


And then you reply...


You don't want the question answered according to the formula you made up. You don't want the question answered according to the electoral college as it currently exists (because you can just do that math yourself). You don't want a poster responding according the their own values regarding fairness, representation, etc.

Literally nobody, including yourself, knows what you want. You have to stop leaning on other people to generate some nebulous feeling of intellectual satisfaction for you. You need to generate it yourself.

And if you think the previous paragraph applies to only this thread, then your lack of self-awareness runs deeper than anyone could have imagined.
I didn't say anything negative about joemorgue's post. I said it was nice. It didn't need further commentary.
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Old 16th May 2019, 01:32 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say anything negative about joemorgue's post. I said it was nice. It didn't need further commentary.
You called it a joke.

Don't play dumb. Nobody is falling for it any more.
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Old 16th May 2019, 01:33 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't say anything negative about joemorgue's post. I said it was nice. It didn't need further commentary.
Mask is slipping Bob. You can't even keep track of your own Bobbings anymore.
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Old 16th May 2019, 01:40 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You called it a joke.

Don't play dumb. Nobody is falling for it any more.
I like jokes
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Old 16th May 2019, 05:10 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Suppose there are only two states: Wyoming and California.

Suppose 100% of Wyoming voter favor person X.

Here are a few vote splits for California for person X and Y

49/51
45/55
40/60
30/70
20/80
10/90

Under any of those scenarios, should person X win?
None of them. If the best person X or person Y can manage is ~50% of the popular vote then neither of them should be the 'winner'.
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Old 16th May 2019, 05:24 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
None of them. If the best person X or person Y can manage is ~50% of the popular vote then neither of them should be the 'winner'.
Obviously for those who believe in the popular vote the conclusion is elementary.

If someone advocates for the electoral college, I wonder how they address the scenario.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:39 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If someone advocates for the electoral college, I wonder how they address the scenario.
No you don't.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:46 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No you don't.
I think about it frequently.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:40 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think about it frequently.
But of course!

After all, it is so very obvious to everyone just how much that you think about these issues.
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On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:24 AM   #181
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I tried yesterday to read this thread from the start. It was hopeless.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:33 AM   #182
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Should've ended on the first page.

Q: Can someone defend the electoral college in terms of fulfilling a clearly stated purpose?

A: Yes, James Madison can.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:39 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I tried yesterday to read this thread from the start. It was hopeless.
Unfortunately, that sort of thing frequently happens when one is dealing with an "ideosyncratic" individual.
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On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."
On 05 FEB 2019, President Donald Trump said in his Sate of the Union Address: "If there is going to be peace and legislation, there cannot be war and investigation."
On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."
A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:43 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I tried yesterday to read this thread from the start. It was hopeless.
I dunno. I thought the opening question was extremely straightforward.

You can skip all the posts that are debating whether EC is trying to solve a real problem. Bob clearly stipulates that the problem is real. So all you really need to read are the posts that debate whether the EC is the best way to solve that problem.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:55 AM   #185
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There were plenty of interesting conversations in the margins and I hope they continue.

A conversation can be Unbobbed as easily as it can be Bobbed.
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Old 17th May 2019, 10:55 AM   #186
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No defense needed it's not going anywhere
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Old 17th May 2019, 10:57 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Nobody is falling for it any more.
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Old 17th May 2019, 11:06 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I dunno. I thought the opening question was extremely straightforward.

You can skip all the posts that are debating whether EC is trying to solve a real problem. Bob clearly stipulates that the problem is real. So all you really need to read are the posts that debate whether the EC is the best way to solve that problem.
It seems like the odds that the EC is the best solution for problem X would be like given how many possibilities exist.
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Old 17th May 2019, 11:57 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It seems like the odds that the EC is the best solution for problem X would be like given how many possibilities exist.
I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. It seems like you may have left out a key word or two.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:00 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can't figure out what you're trying to say here. It seems like you may have left out a key word or two.
Sorry,

It seems unlikely to be the best given the infinite possibilities to weigh votes.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:07 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Sorry,



It seems unlikely to be the best given the infinite possibilities to weigh votes.
In that case it seems likely to be the best one, since it's already implemented, and is probably better than infinite churn through every other possibility.

It solves the problem. It's better than doing nothing. Nobody has come up with a plausible alternative. Nobody has come up with a plausible reason to make an effort to find an alternative. That makes the status quo the best option in my opinion.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:10 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In that case it seems likely to be the best one, since it's already implemented, and is probably better than infinite churn through every other possibility.

It solves the problem. It's better than doing nothing. Nobody has come up with a plausible alternative. Nobody has come up with a plausible reason to make an effort to find an alternative. That makes the status quo the best option in my opinion.
First, we don't know if it solves the problem. If you value weighted votes for reason X, how do we measure X? And how do we measure the impact of the system on X? For all you know, a popular vote may be closer to your ideal value of X than the EC.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:33 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
First, we don't know if it solves the problem. If you value weighted votes for reason X, how do we measure X? And how do we measure the impact of the system on X? For all you know, a popular vote may be closer to your ideal value of X than the EC.
That's easy. X is convincing the states that they'll retain their voice in the government deliberations of the union.

X is measured by the number of states that ratified the EC, and the by the number of states considering amendments to replace it.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:45 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's easy. X is convincing the states that they'll retain their voice in the government deliberations of the union.

X is measured by the number of states that ratified the EC, and the by the number of states considering amendments to replace it.
So if alternative B had the popularity to be ratified, how do you choose between the EC and B on what is preferable?
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Old 17th May 2019, 05:32 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Sorry,

It seems unlikely to be the best given the infinite possibilities to weigh votes.
Do you actually think there is a best and if so why?
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:19 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So if alternative B had the popularity to be ratified, how do you choose between the EC and B on what is preferable?
Depends on the arguments for option b.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:25 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Do you actually think there is a best and if so why?
Unless the function for preferences has a discontinuity at the limit.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:43 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Unless the function for preferences has a discontinuity at the limit.
Is the function for preferences even well-defined? If so, is it linearly ordered?
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Old 18th May 2019, 10:49 AM   #199
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The Avalon Project : Federalist No 68 by Alexander Hamilton.

He argued that the Electoral College was good because electors are likely to have broad experience and knowledge, and would be able to have a good idea of who might be a good president.

He proposed that the electors vote in their home states so as to make life difficult for demagogues and foreign meddlers.

But if the EC was supposed to be some sort of committee of experts, it soon failed completely there, because with the rise of political parties, it soon became a rubber-stamp body.

Even worse than that, presidential campaigns have become focused in a few "swing states". What makes those states so special?
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Old 18th May 2019, 11:26 AM   #200
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National Popular Vote -- the homepage of that initiative. If enough states pass it, they will give their electoral votes to the popular-vote winner.

It has currently passed in 14 states and DC with a total of 189 EV's: CA, CO, CT, DC, DE, HI, IL, MA, MD, NJ, NM, NY, RI, VT, WA.

That means 81 EV's to pass the threshold of 270 EV's.

It is currently being considered in ME, MN, NV, and OR, with a total of 4+10+6+7 = 27 EV's. Passage in all four states would mean 54 EV's to go.
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