US police are equally violent to all races finds study - Page 2

Mumbles · 27th July 2016, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

How do you gain that experience?

Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first.

William Parcher · 27th July 2016, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first.

Your experience would seem to be common for all people regardless of who they are. You get pulled over at various times in your driving history. Sometimes the cop sees your person and sometimes they don't. That kind of personal anecdote would be told by people of all colors.

PhantomWolf · 27th July 2016, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first.

On thing that I actually just recently discovered while listening to a number of traffic stop videos, why they are made, what to do, and also the best ways to act to avoid a ticket, was that not all traffic stops are because of an actual infringement by the driver, but more often than we realise, the stop is made because the driver and/or vehicle appears similar to one that the police are currently looking for.

They won't tell you that, but what they are doing is trying to eliminate you and your vehicle from the mix. For those in poorer higher crime rated areas, such a stop could easily be interrupted as a "DWB" stop, and in someways it is, though it's more a "driving while looking like my current suspect description" stop because what you don't know as a driver is that the "You didn't indicate properly at that Give Way Sign back there" reason is really a "You match the description of an armed robber that just fled the scene in a similar looking car" reason, but the last thing a cop is going to do is tell a possibly armed fleeing suspect that they are on to them.

PhantomWolf · 27th July 2016, 06:07 PM

Oh, and if you have ever wondered what it is like being a police officer at a traffic stop, this is a good video that uses cameras positioned from the aspect of the officer at the stop and what he can and can't see, and how long he has to react is things go pear shaped.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Delvo · 27th July 2016, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

First off, the term Bystander, as noted, seems to be being applied incorrectly, because otherwise bystanders are being injured more then those being stopped/arrested.

There's no way bystanders could be getting hurt as often as they claimed unless they're including the victims of the crimes that the police were called to respond to in the first place, and/or people whom the criminals or suspects attack while the police are present.

ThunderChunky · 28th July 2016, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

As to the study...um, yeah, non-black people can catch it, too. That's not the only question.

There's also the rush to justify, if not outright celebrate, violence against black people at the hands of police or vigilantes, as we've seen in many incidents over the past few years, as well as the overall indifference towards black people in general, and the view of society-created problems as up to only black people to fix.

The first rush is to claim racism without any data other than the race of the victim. The stats are showing the racial disparity lies in the encounter rate, not the risk per encounter. This is a fact that has been actively denied by the social justice advocates. There's nothing to "catch" here.

jimbob · 28th July 2016, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by ThunderChunky

The first rush is to claim racism without any data other than the race of the victim. The stats are showing the racial disparity lies in the encounter rate, not the risk per encounter. This is a fact that has been actively denied by the social justice advocates. There's nothing to "catch" here.

It seems at odds with other data about differential treatment of Blacks and Whites. For example vehicle stops in Missouri.

Blacks are stopped more often, searched more often, have contraband found *less* often, but are arrested more often than whites. The DoJ dug more deeply into the data in Ferguson and found that this disparity was there when controlled for the reason for the stop. Similarly, they found racial disparities in use of force. I suppose an optimist could say that maybe Ferguson was a unique situation, but there is little reason to believe that.

Belz... · 28th July 2016, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Try being black for a while.

I'm pretty sure that this isn't how statistics work. You don't need to be black to understand the evidence, so why would you say something like that?

jimbob · 28th July 2016, 10:53 AM

If the police stopped every black person in a city and randomly shot 0.01% wouldn't this study show that a blacks are less likely to be shot once stopped than whites?

Ammonitida · 28th July 2016, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

It seems at odds with other data about differential treatment of Blacks and Whites. For example vehicle stops in Missouri.

Blacks are stopped more often, searched more often, have contraband found *less* often, but are arrested more often than whites. The DoJ dug more deeply into the data in Ferguson and found that this disparity was there when controlled for the reason for the stop. Similarly, they found racial disparities in use of force. I suppose an optimist could say that maybe Ferguson was a unique situation, but there is little reason to believe that.

The study cites a meta analysis that pretty much refutes the notion of "racial disparities in the use of force". The issue of blacks being stopped more often or "driving while black" is also covered by the study, and they cite three studies that refute that notion too. One of those studies is the New Jersey Turn Pike study that the DOJ tried to suppress. The very DOJ that issued the Ferguson report.

Delvo · 28th July 2016, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ammonitida

The issue of blacks being stopped more often or "driving while black" is also covered by the study, and they cite three studies that refute that notion too.

I've never seen studies about that before, but never have bought the idea without positive proof. The claim is simply a claim of mind-reading, and I am aware of another explanation for such claims that seems perfectly adequate.

I work at a plasma donation center. Both the donors and the employees include a mix of races. Sometimes we need to tell a donor something (s)he doesn't like, and sometimes that donor is a different race from the employee. Odds of a white donor accusing a black employee of racism in those situations: zero or indistinguishable from zero. Odds of a black donor accusing a white employee of racism in the same situations: about one in ten.

Aepervius · 28th July 2016, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first.

Being a white in a group of black or arabic skinned folk and being the same in a group of white kid taught me early that skin color get you looked at by cop, in France. No need to be black for a while.

jimbob · 28th July 2016, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

I've never seen studies about that before, but never have bought the idea without positive proof. The claim is simply a claim of mind-reading, and I am aware of another explanation for such claims that seems perfectly adequate.

I work at a plasma donation center. Both the donors and the employees include a mix of races. Sometimes we need to tell a donor something (s)he doesn't like, and sometimes that donor is a different race from the employee. Odds of a white donor accusing a black employee of racism in those situations: zero or indistinguishable from zero. Odds of a black donor accusing a white employee of racism in the same situations: about one in ten.

I am sure that if I had experienced prejudice, I'd be more likely to see it when it didn't exist as well as when it did.

caveman1917 · 29th July 2016, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by jimbob

If the police stopped every black person in a city and randomly shot 0.01% wouldn't this study show that a blacks are less likely to be shot once stopped than whites?

Yes.

Mumbles · 29th July 2016, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

I'm pretty sure that this isn't how statistics work. You don't need to be black to understand the evidence, so why would you say something like that?

Because we were not discussing statistics. We were discussing experiences and suspicions.

27th July 2016, 03:26 PM	#41
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,409	Originally Posted by William Parcher How do you gain that experience? Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,409	Last edited by Mumbles; 27th July 2016 at 03:28 PM.

27th July 2016, 03:56 PM	#42
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,760	Originally Posted by Mumbles Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first. Your experience would seem to be common for all people regardless of who they are. You get pulled over at various times in your driving history. Sometimes the cop sees your person and sometimes they don't. That kind of personal anecdote would be told by people of all colors.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

27th July 2016, 06:02 PM	#43
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 20,279	Originally Posted by Mumbles Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first. On thing that I actually just recently discovered while listening to a number of traffic stop videos, why they are made, what to do, and also the best ways to act to avoid a ticket, was that not all traffic stops are because of an actual infringement by the driver, but more often than we realise, the stop is made because the driver and/or vehicle appears similar to one that the police are currently looking for. They won't tell you that, but what they are doing is trying to eliminate you and your vehicle from the mix. For those in poorer higher crime rated areas, such a stop could easily be interrupted as a "DWB" stop, and in someways it is, though it's more a "driving while looking like my current suspect description" stop because what you don't know as a driver is that the "You didn't indicate properly at that Give Way Sign back there" reason is really a "You match the description of an armed robber that just fled the scene in a similar looking car" reason, but the last thing a cop is going to do is tell a possibly armed fleeing suspect that they are on to them.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

28th July 2016, 04:29 AM	#46
ThunderChunky Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,456	Originally Posted by Mumbles As to the study...um, yeah, non-black people can catch it, too. That's not the only question. There's also the rush to justify, if not outright celebrate, violence against black people at the hands of police or vigilantes, as we've seen in many incidents over the past few years, as well as the overall indifference towards black people in general, and the view of society-created problems as up to only black people to fix. The first rush is to claim racism without any data other than the race of the victim. The stats are showing the racial disparity lies in the encounter rate, not the risk per encounter. This is a fact that has been actively denied by the social justice advocates. There's nothing to "catch" here.
	Last edited by ThunderChunky; 28th July 2016 at 04:32 AM.

28th July 2016, 09:58 AM	#47
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,794	Originally Posted by ThunderChunky The first rush is to claim racism without any data other than the race of the victim. The stats are showing the racial disparity lies in the encounter rate, not the risk per encounter. This is a fact that has been actively denied by the social justice advocates. There's nothing to "catch" here. It seems at odds with other data about differential treatment of Blacks and Whites. For example vehicle stops in Missouri. Blacks are stopped more often, searched more often, have contraband found less often, but are arrested more often than whites. The DoJ dug more deeply into the data in Ferguson and found that this disparity was there when controlled for the reason for the stop. Similarly, they found racial disparities in use of force. I suppose an optimist could say that maybe Ferguson was a unique situation, but there is little reason to believe that.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

27th July 2016, 10:33 PM	#45
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,293	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf First off, the term Bystander, as noted, seems to be being applied incorrectly, because otherwise bystanders are being injured more then those being stopped/arrested. There's no way bystanders could be getting hurt as often as they claimed unless they're including the victims of the crimes that the police were called to respond to in the first place, and/or people whom the criminals or suspects attack while the police are present.

28th July 2016, 10:09 AM	#48
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,350	Originally Posted by Mumbles Try being black for a while. I'm pretty sure that this isn't how statistics work. You don't need to be black to understand the evidence, so why would you say something like that?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

28th July 2016, 10:53 AM	#49
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,794	If the police stopped every black person in a city and randomly shot 0.01% wouldn't this study show that a blacks are less likely to be shot once stopped than whites?
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

28th July 2016, 06:49 PM	#50
Ammonitida Muse Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 616	Originally Posted by jimbob It seems at odds with other data about differential treatment of Blacks and Whites. For example vehicle stops in Missouri. Blacks are stopped more often, searched more often, have contraband found less often, but are arrested more often than whites. The DoJ dug more deeply into the data in Ferguson and found that this disparity was there when controlled for the reason for the stop. Similarly, they found racial disparities in use of force. I suppose an optimist could say that maybe Ferguson was a unique situation, but there is little reason to believe that. The study cites a meta analysis that pretty much refutes the notion of "racial disparities in the use of force". The issue of blacks being stopped more often or "driving while black" is also covered by the study, and they cite three studies that refute that notion too. One of those studies is the New Jersey Turn Pike study that the DOJ tried to suppress. The very DOJ that issued the Ferguson report.
Ammonitida Muse Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 616

28th July 2016, 09:39 PM	#51
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,293	Originally Posted by Ammonitida The issue of blacks being stopped more often or "driving while black" is also covered by the study, and they cite three studies that refute that notion too. I've never seen studies about that before, but never have bought the idea without positive proof. The claim is simply a claim of mind-reading, and I am aware of another explanation for such claims that seems perfectly adequate. I work at a plasma donation center. Both the donors and the employees include a mix of races. Sometimes we need to tell a donor something (s)he doesn't like, and sometimes that donor is a different race from the employee. Odds of a white donor accusing a black employee of racism in those situations: zero or indistinguishable from zero. Odds of a black donor accusing a white employee of racism in the same situations: about one in ten.

28th July 2016, 10:07 PM	#52
Aepervius Non credunt, semper verificare Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Sigil, the city of doors Posts: 14,581	Originally Posted by Mumbles Try being black for a while. a few years, say. Not that every single black person in the US has the same experience of course, but in my experience, the great majority of the times I've been pulled over the cop had a decent chance to get a look at me first. Being a white in a group of black or arabic skinned folk and being the same in a group of white kid taught me early that skin color get you looked at by cop, in France. No need to be black for a while.

28th July 2016, 10:20 PM	#53
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,794	Originally Posted by Delvo I've never seen studies about that before, but never have bought the idea without positive proof. The claim is simply a claim of mind-reading, and I am aware of another explanation for such claims that seems perfectly adequate. I work at a plasma donation center. Both the donors and the employees include a mix of races. Sometimes we need to tell a donor something (s)he doesn't like, and sometimes that donor is a different race from the employee. Odds of a white donor accusing a black employee of racism in those situations: zero or indistinguishable from zero. Odds of a black donor accusing a white employee of racism in the same situations: about one in ten. I am sure that if I had experienced prejudice, I'd be more likely to see it when it didn't exist as well as when it did.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

29th July 2016, 04:21 AM	#54
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,873	Originally Posted by jimbob If the police stopped every black person in a city and randomly shot 0.01% wouldn't this study show that a blacks are less likely to be shot once stopped than whites? Yes.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,873	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

29th July 2016, 06:10 AM	#55
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,409	Originally Posted by Argumemnon I'm pretty sure that this isn't how statistics work. You don't need to be black to understand the evidence, so why would you say something like that? Because we were not discussing statistics. We were discussing experiences and suspicions.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,409