Bitcoin - Part 3 - Page 24

a_unique_person · 12th January 2021, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Oops. https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...itcoin-account

Schroedinger's bitcoin.

Samson · 12th January 2021, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Schroedinger's bitcoin.

Watching it cross the event horizon

psionl0 · 12th January 2021, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by blutoski 36 hours ago

So, like, later this afternoon, I guess.

Well that was a terrible guess. The price hasn't done much of anything for at least 36 hours (although it is down from the $40K+ of last week).

Mind you, a quick study of the price history shows that the odds were massively against such a prediction. Although the price has been in free fall several times in its history, I can't find any instance of a 50% price drop in a single day.

The current bubble may still have some time to go before the price comes crashing down again.

Armitage72 · 15th January 2021, 11:16 AM

A man in the UK accidentally threw away a hard drive containing his Bitcoins back in 2013, which would now be worth about $273 million. He's offering the town $70 million to let him excavate the landfill looking for it, the payment depending on him finding the drive and the data being recoverable. The town is saying that the excavation would have a significant environmental impact and could cost millions, with no guarantee of him being able to pay.

a_unique_person · 16th January 2021, 10:32 PM

Anyone want to trade some Tesla shares for Bitcoin.

ChrisBFRPKY · 18th January 2021, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by blutoski

So, it's volatile, like gambling, and you can win if you have a time machine to go back to a few hours/days earlier. Got it.

I just checked with my time machine and it says: "Have bets placed before Jan 29,2021. Insert 10 BTC for more info".

The Atheist · 21st January 2021, 01:31 AM

This will help Bitcoin's value: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ryptocurrency/

I tend to agree with the idea that Bitcoin is mainly used for illegal purposes.

Samson · 21st January 2021, 02:42 AM

I will consume an appendage if bitcoin does not see 20,000 shortly.

psionl0 · 21st January 2021, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I tend to agree with the idea that Bitcoin is mainly used for illegal purposes.

Have you got any data that shows that transactions for illegal purposes outweighs speculation?

ChrisBFRPKY · 21st January 2021, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

I will consume an appendage if bitcoin does not see 20,000 shortly.

I hope and pray you're right. But not because of the appendage thing. I would suggest a pickled pigs foot though. If you've never tried one, and most people have not, you may be pleasantly surprised if you don't think about it too much.

The Atheist · 21st January 2021, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Have you got any data that shows that transactions for illegal purposes outweighs speculation?

Apologies, I didn't make clear that I'm talking about purchases of goods.

In terms of what's actually purchased via Bitcoin, there aren't any numbers available because criminals tend not to report the value of their dug deals are, but I'd be amazed if it turned out that more than 5% of market purchases made were legal usage.

psionl0 · 21st January 2021, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Apologies, I didn't make clear that I'm talking about purchases of goods.

If you eliminate the most common reason for buying bitcoins (speculation) then I guess that purchasing illegal goods and services would be the next most likely reason but I suspect that this would be well down the ladder.

a_unique_person · 22nd January 2021, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

If you eliminate the most common reason for buying bitcoins (speculation) then I guess that purchasing illegal goods and services would be the next most likely reason but I suspect that this would be well down the ladder.

If the only measure of worth of an object it's speculation before, it's not a good sign.

psionl0 · 22nd January 2021, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

If the only measure of worth of an object it's speculation before, it's not a good sign.

It hasn't been a good sign for 12 years.

Don't forget that just because bitcoin is not evil-person proof doesn't mean that it hasn't achieved its designed technological objective.

Samson · 22nd January 2021, 02:19 AM

One man's (person's) reversal pattern is another man's continuation pattern.
This is what bedevils technical analysis of trends in free markets.
I can report that bitcoin is a beautifully behaving technical market, which is exactly to be expected in a theoretical construct devoid of intrinsic value.

a_unique_person · 22nd January 2021, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

It hasn't been a good sign for 12 years.

Don't forget that just because bitcoin is not evil-person proof doesn't mean that it hasn't achieved its designed technological objective.

From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction.

lomiller · 22nd January 2021, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction.

Yeah, bitcoin is a complete failure if you evaluate it on either the basis of what it tried to achieve. It's not a functional currency and never will be.

Even without the failure of the technology itself bitcoins failure to become a functional currency was easily predicable. It attempted to solve a problem that didn't exist and viewed strengths of the established monetary system as problems to be "fixed"

psionl0 · 22nd January 2021, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction.

After all these years and thousands of posts on bitcoin you still don't know how it works?

It takes 10 minutes to get a transaction confirmed and 1 hour for 6 confirmations after which forking can't touch the transaction. It's on the blockchain forever. Of course you have to offer a transaction fee or no miner will touch your transaction but it was never meant to be a free service. On the most recent blocks, the average transaction fee is of the order of about 0.0005 btc or $15.

For transferring large amounts of wealth around the world without interference from a third party or the need to justify your transaction to financial authorities, crypto currencies can't be beaten. That is its "intrinsic" value.

Originally Posted by lomiller

It's not a functional currency and never will be.

Who said that bitcoin has to be a "functional currency" (whatever that means)? michaelsuede?

ChrisBFRPKY · 22nd January 2021, 08:34 PM

Interesting piece:

"Crypto Whale Abruptly Drains Wallet, Moving $615,000,000 in Bitcoin in Single Transaction for a fee of about $3.00"

https://dailyhodl.com/2021/01/19/cry...20about%20%243.

Dr.Sid · 22nd January 2021, 08:38 PM

Damn .. imaging hodling that !

ChrisBFRPKY · 22nd January 2021, 10:26 PM

I thought it was a neat write up and example that illustrates an important use of BTC. A method of transferring wealth at ultra low cost. Maybe it'll help some understand better how BTC works.

psionl0 · 23rd January 2021, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Interesting piece:

"Crypto Whale Abruptly Drains Wallet, Moving $615,000,000 in Bitcoin in Single Transaction for a fee of about $3.00"

https://dailyhodl.com/2021/01/19/cry...20about%20%243.

0.00008320 BTC seems like a pretty stingy fee compared to the current average. I wonder how long it took for the whale to get his first confirmation.

ETA this seems like a reasonable fee a week ago. On block 666216 there were 2643 transactions and the total fees collected was 1.28898737 BTC. That makes an average fee per transaction of 0.000048378 BTC.

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/666216

ChrisBFRPKY · 23rd January 2021, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

0.00008320 BTC seems like a pretty stingy fee compared to the current average. I wonder how long it took for the whale to get his first confirmation.

ETA this seems like a reasonable fee a week ago. On block 666216 there were 2643 transactions and the total fees collected was 1.28898737 BTC. That makes an average fee per transaction of 0.000048378 BTC.

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/666216

Yep, that transaction was on the 16th.

lomiller · 26th January 2021, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I thought it was a neat write up and example that illustrates an important use of BTC. A method of transferring wealth at ultra low cost. Maybe it'll help some understand better how BTC works.

AKA tax evasion and/or money laundering.

psionl0 · 26th January 2021, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

AKA tax evasion and/or money laundering.

There's the Jedi mind at work again.

ChrisBFRPKY · 26th January 2021, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

AKA tax evasion and/or money laundering.

Not at all. It's a transfer of wealth.

In the US, when those coins are converted into a physical currency, (cashed out) that's when Uncle Sam gets his share. Getting an account to do so is no different than applying for a bank account. The current "Know your customer" stuff takes care of illicit activities like money laundering by identifying the person converting their BTC to USD. Not only is the person identified, their bank account and amount transferred is as well. One thing's for certain, when you convert BTC to USD Uncle Sam WILL GET his money.

Otherwise, the BTC is still an unrealized investment gain with no tax due.

I suppose if you were to transfer BTC to a Country that offers private banking transactions and cash out there you could get away with money laundering, but that's nothing new and certainly not limited to BTC.

And as a hypothetical, if you were to purchase bullion with BTC, there must be a shipping address to go with those purchase records, then you have to sell it. If I was going to set up some sort of illegal activity that I didn't want traced back to me I'd use cash, US dollars, like everyone else does. BTC leaves too many trails getting in and out.

lomiller · 27th January 2021, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Not at all. It's a transfer of wealth.

In the US, when those coins are converted into a physical currency, (cashed out) that's when Uncle Sam gets his share. Getting an account to do so is no different than applying for a bank account. The current "Know your customer" stuff takes care of illicit activities like money laundering by identifying the person converting their BTC to USD. Not only is the person identified, their bank account and amount transferred is as well. One thing's for certain, when you convert BTC to USD Uncle Sam WILL GET his money.

Otherwise, the BTC is still an unrealized investment gain with no tax due.

I suppose if you were to transfer BTC to a Country that offers private banking transactions and cash out there you could get away with money laundering, but that's nothing new and certainly not limited to BTC.

And as a hypothetical, if you were to purchase bullion with BTC, there must be a shipping address to go with those purchase records, then you have to sell it. If I was going to set up some sort of illegal activity that I didn't want traced back to me I'd use cash, US dollars, like everyone else does. BTC leaves too many trails getting in and out.

In the story we are discussing over $600 million in Bitcoin were exchanged for something. Probabaly money. Even if it were traded for something capital gains tax likely should have applied. It's HIGHLY likely that this was a case of tax evasion, and may have been done for money laundering reasons as well.

ChrisBFRPKY · 27th January 2021, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

In the story we are discussing over $600 million in Bitcoin were exchanged for something. Probabaly money. Even if it were traded for something capital gains tax likely should have applied. It's HIGHLY likely that this was a case of tax evasion, and may have been done for money laundering reasons as well.

It's not uncommon for someone that's holding BTC to make transfers to a new wallet address without any exchange of ownership of said BTC.

Nothing in the chain analytics suggests these transactions were in any way illegal activities. If we're going to speculate it's just as likely the large transfers were broken up going to a new account opened somewhere and the smaller transactions to the other addresses could have simply been business expenses for things like monthly payroll etc.....

The_Animus · 27th January 2021, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction.

Assuming you set an average confirmaron fee it takes minutes to get the first confirmation and maybe an hour to have it fully confirmed.

lomiller · 27th January 2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Nothing in the chain analytics suggests these transactions were in any way illegal activities.

Of course you can't. This is because bitcoin was designed to prevent you from knowing who sent money to whome. The reason WHY it gets used for criminal activities.

psionl0 · 27th January 2021, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Of course you can't. This is because bitcoin was designed to prevent you from knowing who sent money to whome. The reason WHY it gets used for criminal activities.

If it is your claim that NO bitcoin transactions are legitimate then the onus is on you to prove it. Your idle speculation is worthless.

ChrisBFRPKY · 28th January 2021, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Of course you can't. This is because bitcoin was designed to prevent you from knowing who sent money to whome. The reason WHY it gets used for criminal activities.

I think you must be thinking of privacy coins like Monero. Their transactions can be secretive and likely untraceable.

In contrast, BTC transactions are viewable on the blockchain and therefore traceable. While there is no name listed for who the BTC goes to or from, the transaction and wallet ID is 100% traceable to the end user when conversion to physical currency or goods takes place.

Meaning at some point the end user will convert it into physical currency or goods, all of which leave traceable transactions to identify them. Otherwise the end user only has numbers on a computer to look at with no financial gain at all. It would be sad to know you're an unrealized multi-millionaire that doesn't have enough cash to pay the monthly utility bills....

lomiller · 29th January 2021, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

If it is your claim that NO bitcoin transactions are legitimate then the onus is on you to prove it. Your idle speculation is worthless.

It's not, so your strawman arguments loose again.

lomiller · 29th January 2021, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

I think you must be thinking of privacy coins like Monero. Their transactions can be secretive and likely untraceable.

In contrast, BTC transactions are viewable on the blockchain and therefore traceable. While there is no name listed for who the BTC goes to or from, the transaction and wallet ID is 100% traceable to the end user when conversion to physical currency or goods takes place.

If there is no name attached it's not traceable.

psionl0 · 29th January 2021, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

It's not, so your strawman arguments loose again.

So you didn't say, "It's HIGHLY likely that this was a case of tax evasion, and may have been done for money laundering reasons as well"?

Originally Posted by lomiller

If there is no name attached it's not traceable.

lomiller · 29th January 2021, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

So you didn't say, "It's HIGHLY likely that this was a case of tax evasion, and may have been done for money laundering reasons as welll"?

So you admit that I did not in fact say:

Originally Posted by psionl0

NO bitcoin transactions are legitimate

Originally Posted by psionl0

If you think it's funny then by all means explain to us how authorities can trace who transferred money to whome without know the owner of the wallet?

psionl0 · 29th January 2021, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

So you admit that I did not in fact say:

You can't hide behind weasel words. The first and only thought you had about this transaction was ILLEGAL.

Originally Posted by lomiller

If you think it's funny then by all means explain to us how authorities can trace who transferred money to whome without know the owner of the wallet?

There is no need to ask me. ChrisBFRPKY has done a good job of explaining how transactions can be tracked. If you think that he is too biased then you could always check out the technical web sites.

lomiller · 29th January 2021, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can't hide behind weasel words. The first and only thought you had about this transaction was ILLEGAL.

There is no need to ask me. ChrisBFRPKY has done a good job of explaining how transactions can be tracked. If you think that he is too biased then you could always check out the technical web sites.

You constructed a stawman, got called out on it and are now

Originally Posted by psionl0

There is no need to ask me.

Yes there is. You responded I asked you to justify your response. I'm not surprise that you can't, in fact I knew you couldn't.

Originally Posted by psionl0

ChrisBFRPKY has done a good job of explaining how transactions can be tracked.

ChrisBFRPKY failed for the reasons I already pointed out.

psionl0 · 29th January 2021, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

ChrisBFRPKY failed for the reasons I already pointed out.

Of course you will say that ChrisBFRPKY failed because you don't want to admit that he addressed your objection. You didn't give any reasons. You just repeated a non-sequitur.

ChrisBFRPKY · 29th January 2021, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

If there is no name attached it's not traceable.

I get that you are hard focused on one specific point as the foundation for your objection. This is a sound tactic of debate and I applaud the effort.

However there is an important detail required for this method to come to fruition. Using the specific argument that "the traceable BTC transaction does not include the person's name(s) therefore you cannot know who they are". would have to mean that the FBI or other law enforcement agencies are limited to tracing a name only within the transaction. There is the flaw in your position.

Let's look at it this way, if I were to join your objection on this point about the name not being listed and further add that an IP address does not list the user's name either. See where I'm going?

Now I can surmise you're likely thinking about VPN software right? Exactly, but that's not the point I'm trying to clarify. My point to address your objection is that Law Enforcement is not deterred by the missing name from the BTC transactions when they trace them, the name will eventually be revealed and the transactions on the blockchain are used as evidence of criminal activity for prosecution.

12th January 2021, 06:34 PM	#921
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,044	Originally Posted by zooterkin Oops. https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...itcoin-account Schroedinger's bitcoin.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

12th January 2021, 10:15 PM	#922
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,402	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Schroedinger's bitcoin. Watching it cross the event horizon
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,402

12th January 2021, 10:21 PM	#923
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by blutoski 36 hours ago So, like, later this afternoon, I guess. Well that was a terrible guess. The price hasn't done much of anything for at least 36 hours (although it is down from the $40K+ of last week). Mind you, a quick study of the price history shows that the odds were massively against such a prediction. Although the price has been in free fall several times in its history, I can't find any instance of a 50% price drop in a single day. The current bubble may still have some time to go before the price comes crashing down again.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

16th January 2021, 10:32 PM	#925
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,044	Anyone want to trade some Tesla shares for Bitcoin.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

18th January 2021, 09:52 AM	#926
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by blutoski So, it's volatile, like gambling, and you can win if you have a time machine to go back to a few hours/days earlier. Got it. I just checked with my time machine and it says: "Have bets placed before Jan 29,2021. Insert 10 BTC for more info".
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Last edited by ChrisBFRPKY; 18th January 2021 at 09:53 AM. Reason: sp

15th January 2021, 11:16 AM	#924
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,263	A man in the UK accidentally threw away a hard drive containing his Bitcoins back in 2013, which would now be worth about $273 million. He's offering the town $70 million to let him excavate the landfill looking for it, the payment depending on him finding the drive and the data being recoverable. The town is saying that the excavation would have a significant environmental impact and could cost millions, with no guarantee of him being able to pay.

21st January 2021, 01:31 AM	#927
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,336	This will help Bitcoin's value: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ryptocurrency/ I tend to agree with the idea that Bitcoin is mainly used for illegal purposes.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

21st January 2021, 02:42 AM	#928
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,402	I will consume an appendage if bitcoin does not see 20,000 shortly.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,402

21st January 2021, 10:27 AM	#929
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by The Atheist I tend to agree with the idea that Bitcoin is mainly used for illegal purposes. Have you got any data that shows that transactions for illegal purposes outweighs speculation?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

21st January 2021, 10:39 AM	#930
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by Samson I will consume an appendage if bitcoin does not see 20,000 shortly. I hope and pray you're right. But not because of the appendage thing. I would suggest a pickled pigs foot though. If you've never tried one, and most people have not, you may be pleasantly surprised if you don't think about it too much.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

21st January 2021, 11:39 AM	#931
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 28,336	Originally Posted by psionl0 Have you got any data that shows that transactions for illegal purposes outweighs speculation? Apologies, I didn't make clear that I'm talking about purchases of goods. In terms of what's actually purchased via Bitcoin, there aren't any numbers available because criminals tend not to report the value of their dug deals are, but I'd be amazed if it turned out that more than 5% of market purchases made were legal usage.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

21st January 2021, 01:07 PM	#932
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by The Atheist Apologies, I didn't make clear that I'm talking about purchases of goods. If you eliminate the most common reason for buying bitcoins (speculation) then I guess that purchasing illegal goods and services would be the next most likely reason but I suspect that this would be well down the ladder.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

22nd January 2021, 12:04 AM	#933
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,044	Originally Posted by psionl0 If you eliminate the most common reason for buying bitcoins (speculation) then I guess that purchasing illegal goods and services would be the next most likely reason but I suspect that this would be well down the ladder. If the only measure of worth of an object it's speculation before, it's not a good sign.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

22nd January 2021, 12:27 AM	#934
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by a_unique_person If the only measure of worth of an object it's speculation before, it's not a good sign. It hasn't been a good sign for 12 years. Don't forget that just because bitcoin is not evil-person proof doesn't mean that it hasn't achieved its designed technological objective.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

22nd January 2021, 02:19 AM	#935
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,402	One man's (person's) reversal pattern is another man's continuation pattern. This is what bedevils technical analysis of trends in free markets. I can report that bitcoin is a beautifully behaving technical market, which is exactly to be expected in a theoretical construct devoid of intrinsic value.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,402

22nd January 2021, 07:11 AM	#936
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,044	Originally Posted by psionl0 It hasn't been a good sign for 12 years. Don't forget that just because bitcoin is not evil-person proof doesn't mean that it hasn't achieved its designed technological objective. From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

22nd January 2021, 08:40 AM	#937
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by a_unique_person From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction. Yeah, bitcoin is a complete failure if you evaluate it on either the basis of what it tried to achieve. It's not a functional currency and never will be. Even without the failure of the technology itself bitcoins failure to become a functional currency was easily predicable. It attempted to solve a problem that didn't exist and viewed strengths of the established monetary system as problems to be "fixed"
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

22nd January 2021, 10:42 AM	#938
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by a_unique_person From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction. After all these years and thousands of posts on bitcoin you still don't know how it works? It takes 10 minutes to get a transaction confirmed and 1 hour for 6 confirmations after which forking can't touch the transaction. It's on the blockchain forever. Of course you have to offer a transaction fee or no miner will touch your transaction but it was never meant to be a free service. On the most recent blocks, the average transaction fee is of the order of about 0.0005 btc or $15. For transferring large amounts of wealth around the world without interference from a third party or the need to justify your transaction to financial authorities, crypto currencies can't be beaten. That is its "intrinsic" value. Originally Posted by lomiller It's not a functional currency and never will be. Who said that bitcoin has to be a "functional currency" (whatever that means)? michaelsuede?
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 22nd January 2021 at 10:55 AM.

22nd January 2021, 08:34 PM	#939
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Interesting piece: "Crypto Whale Abruptly Drains Wallet, Moving $615,000,000 in Bitcoin in Single Transaction for a fee of about $3.00" https://dailyhodl.com/2021/01/19/cry...20about%20%243.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

22nd January 2021, 08:38 PM	#940
Dr.Sid Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Olomouc, Czech Republic Posts: 3,176	Damn .. imaging hodling that !

22nd January 2021, 10:26 PM	#941
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	I thought it was a neat write up and example that illustrates an important use of BTC. A method of transferring wealth at ultra low cost. Maybe it'll help some understand better how BTC works.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

23rd January 2021, 12:27 AM	#942
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY Interesting piece: "Crypto Whale Abruptly Drains Wallet, Moving $615,000,000 in Bitcoin in Single Transaction for a fee of about $3.00" https://dailyhodl.com/2021/01/19/cry...20about%20%243. 0.00008320 BTC seems like a pretty stingy fee compared to the current average. I wonder how long it took for the whale to get his first confirmation. ETA this seems like a reasonable fee a week ago. On block 666216 there were 2643 transactions and the total fees collected was 1.28898737 BTC. That makes an average fee per transaction of 0.000048378 BTC. https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/666216
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 23rd January 2021 at 12:43 AM.

23rd January 2021, 12:02 PM	#943
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by psionl0 0.00008320 BTC seems like a pretty stingy fee compared to the current average. I wonder how long it took for the whale to get his first confirmation. ETA this seems like a reasonable fee a week ago. On block 666216 there were 2643 transactions and the total fees collected was 1.28898737 BTC. That makes an average fee per transaction of 0.000048378 BTC. https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/666216 Yep, that transaction was on the 16th.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

26th January 2021, 09:58 AM	#944
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY I thought it was a neat write up and example that illustrates an important use of BTC. A method of transferring wealth at ultra low cost. Maybe it'll help some understand better how BTC works. AKA tax evasion and/or money laundering.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

26th January 2021, 09:59 AM	#945
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by lomiller AKA tax evasion and/or money laundering. There's the Jedi mind at work again.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

26th January 2021, 01:53 PM	#946
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by lomiller AKA tax evasion and/or money laundering. Not at all. It's a transfer of wealth. In the US, when those coins are converted into a physical currency, (cashed out) that's when Uncle Sam gets his share. Getting an account to do so is no different than applying for a bank account. The current "Know your customer" stuff takes care of illicit activities like money laundering by identifying the person converting their BTC to USD. Not only is the person identified, their bank account and amount transferred is as well. One thing's for certain, when you convert BTC to USD Uncle Sam WILL GET his money. Otherwise, the BTC is still an unrealized investment gain with no tax due. I suppose if you were to transfer BTC to a Country that offers private banking transactions and cash out there you could get away with money laundering, but that's nothing new and certainly not limited to BTC. And as a hypothetical, if you were to purchase bullion with BTC, there must be a shipping address to go with those purchase records, then you have to sell it. If I was going to set up some sort of illegal activity that I didn't want traced back to me I'd use cash, US dollars, like everyone else does. BTC leaves too many trails getting in and out.
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

27th January 2021, 07:37 AM	#947
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY Not at all. It's a transfer of wealth. In the US, when those coins are converted into a physical currency, (cashed out) that's when Uncle Sam gets his share. Getting an account to do so is no different than applying for a bank account. The current "Know your customer" stuff takes care of illicit activities like money laundering by identifying the person converting their BTC to USD. Not only is the person identified, their bank account and amount transferred is as well. One thing's for certain, when you convert BTC to USD Uncle Sam WILL GET his money. Otherwise, the BTC is still an unrealized investment gain with no tax due. I suppose if you were to transfer BTC to a Country that offers private banking transactions and cash out there you could get away with money laundering, but that's nothing new and certainly not limited to BTC. And as a hypothetical, if you were to purchase bullion with BTC, there must be a shipping address to go with those purchase records, then you have to sell it. If I was going to set up some sort of illegal activity that I didn't want traced back to me I'd use cash, US dollars, like everyone else does. BTC leaves too many trails getting in and out. In the story we are discussing over $600 million in Bitcoin were exchanged for something. Probabaly money. Even if it were traded for something capital gains tax likely should have applied. It's HIGHLY likely that this was a case of tax evasion, and may have been done for money laundering reasons as well.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

27th January 2021, 10:45 AM	#948
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by lomiller In the story we are discussing over $600 million in Bitcoin were exchanged for something. Probabaly money. Even if it were traded for something capital gains tax likely should have applied. It's HIGHLY likely that this was a case of tax evasion, and may have been done for money laundering reasons as well. It's not uncommon for someone that's holding BTC to make transfers to a new wallet address without any exchange of ownership of said BTC. Nothing in the chain analytics suggests these transactions were in any way illegal activities. If we're going to speculate it's just as likely the large transfers were broken up going to a new account opened somewhere and the smaller transactions to the other addresses could have simply been business expenses for things like monthly payroll etc.....
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

27th January 2021, 12:27 PM	#949
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,257	Originally Posted by a_unique_person From a technology point of view it's failure. In the 21st century it can take days to do a simple transaction. Assuming you set an average confirmaron fee it takes minutes to get the first confirmation and maybe an hour to have it fully confirmed.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,257	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

27th January 2021, 12:59 PM	#950
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY Nothing in the chain analytics suggests these transactions were in any way illegal activities. Of course you can't. This is because bitcoin was designed to prevent you from knowing who sent money to whome. The reason WHY it gets used for criminal activities.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

27th January 2021, 01:54 PM	#951
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by lomiller Of course you can't. This is because bitcoin was designed to prevent you from knowing who sent money to whome. The reason WHY it gets used for criminal activities. If it is your claim that NO bitcoin transactions are legitimate then the onus is on you to prove it. Your idle speculation is worthless.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

28th January 2021, 06:59 PM	#952
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by lomiller Of course you can't. This is because bitcoin was designed to prevent you from knowing who sent money to whome. The reason WHY it gets used for criminal activities. I think you must be thinking of privacy coins like Monero. Their transactions can be secretive and likely untraceable. In contrast, BTC transactions are viewable on the blockchain and therefore traceable. While there is no name listed for who the BTC goes to or from, the transaction and wallet ID is 100% traceable to the end user when conversion to physical currency or goods takes place. Meaning at some point the end user will convert it into physical currency or goods, all of which leave traceable transactions to identify them. Otherwise the end user only has numbers on a computer to look at with no financial gain at all. It would be sad to know you're an unrealized multi-millionaire that doesn't have enough cash to pay the monthly utility bills....
ChrisBFRPKY Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,667

29th January 2021, 07:38 AM	#953
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by psionl0 If it is your claim that NO bitcoin transactions are legitimate then the onus is on you to prove it. Your idle speculation is worthless. It's not, so your strawman arguments loose again.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

29th January 2021, 07:40 AM	#954
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY I think you must be thinking of privacy coins like Monero. Their transactions can be secretive and likely untraceable. In contrast, BTC transactions are viewable on the blockchain and therefore traceable. While there is no name listed for who the BTC goes to or from, the transaction and wallet ID is 100% traceable to the end user when conversion to physical currency or goods takes place. If there is no name attached it's not traceable.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

29th January 2021, 10:43 AM	#955
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,013	Originally Posted by lomiller It's not, so your strawman arguments loose again. So you didn't say, "It's HIGHLY likely that this was a case of tax evasion, and may have been done for money laundering reasons as well"? Originally Posted by lomiller If there is no name attached it's not traceable.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 29th January 2021 at 10:44 AM.