IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 16th February 2020, 04:14 PM   #81
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Well, as I was saying, I'm not saying it was the best choice or anything. Just explaining the exact context and reasons of that decision.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2020, 09:45 PM   #82
Pacal
Graduate Poster
 
Pacal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,158
Actually a really good example of snatching defeat from the jaws of, if not victory, at least an advantage and giving it to the other side is the battle of Lutzen in 1632. The battle is also one of the most excellent examples of the long term effects of good propaganda.

Gustavus Adolphus is considered by so, so many to be one of the "Great Captains" of history and with my interest in military history I accepted this story for quite some time. It seems to have originated in European Military Staff colleges in the 19th century. When I read about, in detail, Gustavus' actual campaigns I was distinctly less impressed and wondered about Gustavus out sized reputation.

The battle in question, Lutzen, was frequently described in the literature has a "Great Swedish victory", with the Imperial army routed and Gustavus' antagonist, the great Czech General Wallenstein, (He Germanized his last name.), being utterly defeated and the Swedes being unable to reap the full fruits of victory due to Gustavus' death in the battle.

Well then I began reading in the heavily academic literature of The Thirty Years War that the battle was indecisive, that the notion that Gustavus was heavily out numbered at the beginning of the battle was so much nonsense. That the 8,000 reinforcements that came for Wallenstein came after the battle was over. In fact Gustavus had about 40-50% more men than Wallenstein at the beginning of the battle. That Swedish losses were in fact about double Imperial losses during it. That the Imperial army was still on the field when the battle was over after hours of savage fighting which only ended at nightfall. That the Swedish commanders were going to withdraw the next day. Effectively conceding the advantage to Wallenstein. Wallenstein sick and ill and not sure that Gustavus was in fact dead, despite the arrival of reinforcements withdrew that night. The Swedes were stunned to find the imperial army gone he next day leaving behind most of it's artillery and many wounded. Thus the Swedes were able to claim victory.

Gustavus was apparently trying to crush Wallenstein by sheer force of numbers in a frontal attack. He failed and got killed and what would have been a serious reverse for Sweden was turned in to a victory by Wallenstein losing his nerve. What is also interesting is how this shambolic mess was turned into a "Great Swedish victory", by propaganda and then by Military Staff colleges.
Pacal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2020, 10:39 PM   #83
ajelehtija
Student
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Actually a really good example of snatching defeat from the jaws of, if not victory, at least an advantage and giving it to the other side is the battle of Lutzen in 1632. The battle is also one of the most excellent examples of the long term effects of good propaganda.

Gustavus Adolphus is considered by so, so many to be one of the "Great Captains" of history and with my interest in military history I accepted this story for quite some time. It seems to have originated in European Military Staff colleges in the 19th century. When I read about, in detail, Gustavus' actual campaigns I was distinctly less impressed and wondered about Gustavus out sized reputation.

The battle in question, Lutzen, was frequently described in the literature has a "Great Swedish victory", with the Imperial army routed and Gustavus' antagonist, the great Czech General Wallenstein, (He Germanized his last name.), being utterly defeated and the Swedes being unable to reap the full fruits of victory due to Gustavus' death in the battle.

Well then I began reading in the heavily academic literature of The Thirty Years War that the battle was indecisive, that the notion that Gustavus was heavily out numbered at the beginning of the battle was so much nonsense. That the 8,000 reinforcements that came for Wallenstein came after the battle was over. In fact Gustavus had about 40-50% more men than Wallenstein at the beginning of the battle. That Swedish losses were in fact about double Imperial losses during it. That the Imperial army was still on the field when the battle was over after hours of savage fighting which only ended at nightfall. That the Swedish commanders were going to withdraw the next day. Effectively conceding the advantage to Wallenstein. Wallenstein sick and ill and not sure that Gustavus was in fact dead, despite the arrival of reinforcements withdrew that night. The Swedes were stunned to find the imperial army gone he next day leaving behind most of it's artillery and many wounded. Thus the Swedes were able to claim victory.

Gustavus was apparently trying to crush Wallenstein by sheer force of numbers in a frontal attack. He failed and got killed and what would have been a serious reverse for Sweden was turned in to a victory by Wallenstein losing his nerve. What is also interesting is how this shambolic mess was turned into a "Great Swedish victory", by propaganda and then by Military Staff colleges.
The more I've read about the 30 Years War the more it has seemed to me as well that Gustavus Adolphus is overrated. His employment of light cannons and having them plus infantry support his cavalry seem like his major accomplishment as a military reformer, but that's more an evolution. The one that I was taught even at school was that Gustavus ordered his cavalry to charge in with steel, but from what I've read that might have been more that his Swedish cavalry units couldn't afford pistols at first but armed themselves at first opportunity.
ajelehtija is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2021, 12:47 AM   #84
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
I'd like to resurrect it to nominate Günther Lütjens for his tireless efforts to get the Bismarck sunk.

Thing is, his idiocy began even before the actual battle, or indeed even meeting any British ships, when he refused to have the Bismarck refuelled even while it was getting painted in the new Atlantic grey camo. (Yeah, WOWS fans, he put on premium camo) This would come to bite him in the ass later, when the Bismarck was losing fuel, and he had to drastically reduce speed to have any hope of making it to France before the fuel runs out. Full tanks would have allowed a bit higher speed.

But the coup de grace was when he decided to send a HALF AN HOUR long rambling report to Germany, assuring his Führer that he'll fight to the end, and all that. Thing is, the Brits had lost track of the Bismarck until that point. But that transmission gave them all the time in the world to not just triangulate its position, but also how that position changed over that half an hour, i.e., its speed and bearing.

Thing also is, Germany knew about triangulating signals. Their subs had had that problem since '39. In fact, Germany not only was instructing its captains to make their messages as short as physically possible, but was working on a way to compress transmissions. The problem was known. Yet Günther Lütjens pretty much decided to predictably commit suicide by ignoring all that.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 7th January 2021 at 12:49 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2021, 05:35 AM   #85
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
Didn't make much difference. if it had more speed and there hadn't been a transmission it would just have delayed contact for a while.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th January 2021, 11:25 AM   #86
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Didn't make much difference. if it had more speed and there hadn't been a transmission it would just have delayed contact for a while.
Yes, but he didn't have to make it all the way to port, he just had to make it all the way to where the Luftwaffe can cover him the rest of the way. Delaying it for a bit more was really all that he needed to do.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 01:25 AM   #87
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,733
I'm not really certain, whether this particular example qualifies.

From the moment Norfolk and Suffolk sighted the German duo, their mission was already scuppered.
Yes, the shootout against Hood and Prince of Wales was succesfull, but after that Bismarck was reduced to running for its life.
No doubt, had Bismarck survived, the Nazi propaganda machine would have milked it for all its worth, but all in all it would have been, on a smaller scale, the same result, as after the battle of Jutland in 1916, “The prisoner has assaulted his jailer, but is still in jail”.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 04:58 AM   #88
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
If they had got out in to the Atlantic it would have ended up another 'River Plate'

Using Capital Ships as 'surface raiders' is a huge waste of resources and they were all doomed to be sunk eventually.

Yes, I know we always get the argument that they tie down RN Battleships defending convoys and looking for the raider, but what else would they doing?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 05:00 AM   #89
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,362
Yeah, the Bismarck radio message was more a matter of snatching disaster from the jaws of defeat.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 07:42 AM   #90
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If they had got out in to the Atlantic it would have ended up another 'River Plate'

Using Capital Ships as 'surface raiders' is a huge waste of resources and they were all doomed to be sunk eventually.

Yes, I know we always get the argument that they tie down RN Battleships defending convoys and looking for the raider, but what else would they doing?
Well, I already wrote elsewhere about that, but yeah, I wouldn't say it would turn into the River Plate, but rather it would just turn into exactly what Operation Rheinübung did turn into.

The plan was not for the Bismarck to be the main raider, though. Slight detour incoming.

The problem for the German surface raiders was that the Brits had an imperial buttload of older battleships. Enough to send one along with some convoys, in fact. They were slow, but they did have good guns and fire control, plus the catapult plane. If you tried to take on one in a destroyer or cruiser, even in one of the pocket battleships, yeah, they could rip you a new one. And that plane meant you couldn't even get out of detection fast. You'd be taking shells for a while.

So essentially some convoys were untouchable by the Kriegsmarine.

But there's this new Bismarck ship, which is bigger and (at least on paper) better armoured. So Raeder, in command of the Kriegsmarine, gets this cunning plan. Baldrick class cunning, even.

The role of the Bismarck would be pretty much to "tank" the incoming fire from the UK battleship, while the destroyers and/or cruisers go after the merchant ships.

And really that's all you need to know for why it would very likely go horribly wrong.

It's a plan to get an expensive battleship damaged, in return for sinking a few cheaper merchant ships. The best POSSIBLE outcome of that, even if you roll natural 20s all the way, is that you now have a very expensive battleship in drydock for months, soaking up many many millions of Reichsmark for repairs, before it can pull that stunt again.

But it likely will go worse than that ideal scenario. Even if that goes well, now you have a damaged Bismarck, very likely a mission-kill in fact, who has to limp back to France for repairs. And almost certainly with some angry Brits in pursuit. Due to its limited range, it now has a fuel problem and has to go slower even if it didn't take a hit to a fuel tank.

Wait, we've seen this scenario before. It's Operation Rheinübung all over again
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 8th January 2021 at 07:45 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 07:52 AM   #91
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
What Destroyers were they hoping to use?

Same for Cruisers, they weren't exactly numerous.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 07:53 AM   #92
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yeah, the Bismarck radio message was more a matter of snatching disaster from the jaws of defeat.
Yeah, I can go with that. It has a nice ring to it.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 07:59 AM   #93
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What Destroyers were they hoping to use?
Germany started the war with 22 destroyers, and they captured a few more from the Dutch and French, you know? Plus there were the "torpedo boats", which were 1800 tons or thereabouts, putting them very much on par with some British destroyers. So yeah, they could find one or two to send along.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Same for Cruisers, they weren't exactly numerous.
Well, obviously they did manage to find a cruiser to send along with the Bismarck, didn't they?

But yeah, that was the 'cunning' plan: Bismarck tanks the fire from a British battleship, while the Prinz Eugen goes after the merchant ships.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 08:10 AM   #94
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
22 destroyers at the start, they lost 8 of them at Narvik.
None of them were very good sea boats, the ones with the twin turret at the bow were particularly renowned for being 'wet' in a swell which meant the bow turret was of limited use in rough weather and their heavy roll meant that accurate shooting was difficult from the other weapons. They were never meant to operate in the Atlantic they were coastal craft meant for North Sea and Baltic operation. Same with the torpedo boats but even more so.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2021, 08:22 AM   #95
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
22 destroyers at the start, they lost 8 of them at Narvik.
None of them were very good sea boats, the ones with the twin turret at the bow were particularly renowned for being 'wet' in a swell which meant the bow turret was of limited use in rough weather and their heavy roll meant that accurate shooting was difficult from the other weapons. They were never meant to operate in the Atlantic they were coastal craft meant for North Sea and Baltic operation. Same with the torpedo boats but even more so.
That's a whole other topic than "what destroyers?"

Bear in mind, I never said it was a good plan. In fact, I just wrote why it would be a very bad plan. But not because of lacking other ships to send along. The fact that they did find a cruiser to send along is proof enough, innit? I mean, you can't argue something that already happened is impossible.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 01:32 PM   #96
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Not a battle this time, but I'd like to nominate the Heinkel 177 Greif programme. It's the one airplane that some cite as the main reason for why Germany lost the fight in the air. So, yeah, if you thought it was the likes of the Spitfire or P-47 Thunderbolt that did the Luftwaffe the most harm... no, the Germans take that honour themselves

The problems started from the start with the engines tending to just spontaneously catch fire. And I don't even mean when shot at, or anything of the kind; they'd just spontaneously burst into flames on the way to the target or back. They also burned fuel -- which Germany didn't have -- like you wouldn't believe. It also had a tendency to just swerve to one side on takeoff and other fun features.

You'd think these would be fixed, but no, actually it goes downhill from there.

Soon it turns out that the German strategic bombing sights were pretty much garbage. You'd be lucky to hit the city you were aiming at, let alone any specific target. (And yes, I know the Norden also had its limitations, but the German sights were far worse.)

So some smart cookie comes up with the idea: well, the Stukas can hit stuff just fine. How about we turn this into a... dive-bombing strategic bomber. No, literally.

Pretty quickly it turned out that the frame just wasn't strong enough to even take the stresses of glide bombing (basically like dive bombing, but at a much shallower angle), let alone dive bombing.

Cue a program that would sink incredible sums and resources into strengthening the frame. Which never worked nearly as well as expected, and further limited the bomb load, range, and increased fuel consumption. Cue more sinking money and resources into it.

What I find the most fascinating is that they didn't just pull the plug, since almost everyone hated it. And I don't just mean the pilots, who gave it such fond nicknames as the "the Luftwaffe lighter" or, I kid you not, "the flaming coffin." Göring also hated it. Hitler hated it. Yet they just poured more money into it. And got more pilots killed in it. And had it burn more fuel which they couldn't afford.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 19th January 2021 at 01:33 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 03:00 PM   #97
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not a battle this time, but I'd like to nominate the Heinkel 177 Greif programme. It's the one airplane that some cite as the main reason for why Germany lost the fight in the air. So, yeah, if you thought it was the likes of the Spitfire or P-47 Thunderbolt that did the Luftwaffe the most harm... no, the Germans take that honour themselves

The problems started from the start with the engines tending to just spontaneously catch fire. And I don't even mean when shot at, or anything of the kind; they'd just spontaneously burst into flames on the way to the target or back. They also burned fuel -- which Germany didn't have -- like you wouldn't believe. It also had a tendency to just swerve to one side on takeoff and other fun features.

You'd think these would be fixed, but no, actually it goes downhill from there.

Soon it turns out that the German strategic bombing sights were pretty much garbage. You'd be lucky to hit the city you were aiming at, let alone any specific target. (And yes, I know the Norden also had its limitations, but the German sights were far worse.)

So some smart cookie comes up with the idea: well, the Stukas can hit stuff just fine. How about we turn this into a... dive-bombing strategic bomber. No, literally.

Pretty quickly it turned out that the frame just wasn't strong enough to even take the stresses of glide bombing (basically like dive bombing, but at a much shallower angle), let alone dive bombing.

Cue a program that would sink incredible sums and resources into strengthening the frame. Which never worked nearly as well as expected, and further limited the bomb load, range, and increased fuel consumption. Cue more sinking money and resources into it.

What I find the most fascinating is that they didn't just pull the plug, since almost everyone hated it. And I don't just mean the pilots, who gave it such fond nicknames as the "the Luftwaffe lighter" or, I kid you not, "the flaming coffin." Göring also hated it. Hitler hated it. Yet they just poured more money into it. And got more pilots killed in it. And had it burn more fuel which they couldn't afford.
For the same reasons lots of projects get money and resources poured in to them long after they should have been abandoned and are known not to work.

See any UK government IT contract for a host of examples.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 03:18 PM   #98
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Well, probably.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 07:41 PM   #99
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 26,506
Can I mention the Battle of Britain? The Germans should have won that. But they made mistake after mistake. These include
1. Not starting it soon enough
2. Failing to see the value of the radar and wiping that out
3. Failing to repeatedly hit the airfields
4. Failing to tell the fighters protecting the bombers, the bombers are just bait, attack the fighters on-site, do not wait for the fighters to get close
5. Failing to work out how to get a city on fire and then doing it
6. Making huge mistakes with their communications. This enabled the British to know what the Germans were going to do.
The list just goes on. The more I think about it the more mistakes I can think of. In short, if they could stuff it up, they did.

The British worked out how to do strategic bombing correctly.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 08:11 PM   #100
Norman Alexander
Philosopher
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 8,760
This might be a double reverse flip snatch of defeat from victory: Elektra-sonne.

One thing the Germans were good at was precision equipment. Elektra-sonne was a set of base stations radiating electronic beams over long distances, particularly the North Atlantic. A couple of stations could form a grid over a huge area. Patrolling ships and planes could get exceptionally good positional details using just basic equipment and calculations.

When the British discovered this in operation, rather than bombing the crap out of the stations and thus giving away that they knew what it was for, they decided to use it themselves. This was because Elektra-sonne required no back-to-base communications. So the Germans provided the same service to Coastal Command without it being known to them, under the codename CONSOL.

But the double-flip was that, post-war, Elektra-sonne was continued into civilian use as the most reliable and accurate long-distance navigation system, until more sophisticated tools and GPS became common. It lasted until the 1990's, IIRC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonne_(navigation)
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 08:21 PM   #101
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Can I mention the Battle of Britain? The Germans should have won that. But they made mistake after mistake. These include
1. Not starting it soon enough
2. Failing to see the value of the radar and wiping that out
3. Failing to repeatedly hit the airfields
4. Failing to tell the fighters protecting the bombers, the bombers are just bait, attack the fighters on-site, do not wait for the fighters to get close
5. Failing to work out how to get a city on fire and then doing it
6. Making huge mistakes with their communications. This enabled the British to know what the Germans were going to do.
The list just goes on. The more I think about it the more mistakes I can think of. In short, if they could stuff it up, they did.

The British worked out how to do strategic bombing correctly.
They never came near winning, I think you are repeating the myth.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 08:29 PM   #102
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Can I mention the Battle of Britain? The Germans should have won that.
Actually, I'd argue that no, they couldn't. Even while the Germans were hammering the airfields the hardest, the UK was just producing more aircraft than Germany could destroy. In fact the strength of the RAF was going UP the whole time.

Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
But they made mistake after mistake. These include
1. Not starting it soon enough
They didn't really have the planes to do both the battle of France and start the battle of Britain at the same time.

Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
2. Failing to see the value of the radar and wiping that out
Common myth, but no, actually they did try. It didn't work out. Taking out a radar tower was pretty hard, and the Brits could put it right back up after you left.

That's Brits for you, really. They never know when they're supposed to give up

Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
3. Failing to repeatedly hit the airfields
Kinda, sorta, but actually that was a decision based on horribly wrong data. Not saying it was a good decision, mind you, but that's what their data pointed at. The data being:

1. Their estimates of how many fighters the Brits had to start with, vs how many they're losing each day, vs how many they can produce. All three were WAY off. As I've said before, the RAF strength was actually going up, while the German data said it's going down.

2. Around the same time as the German estimates said the RAF strength should be rock-bottom, the Brits ordered their planes to basically stop getting baited. Unless they're with the bombers, just leave the BF-109 wings alone.

So, you know, hmm, around the same time we predicted they'd run out of fighters, our fighter-baiting wings don't find any fighters to bait. Yay, we wiped out the RAF! Now we can switch to something else!

Horrible decision, but you can probably see how it's almost scientific method based.

Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
4. Failing to tell the fighters protecting the bombers, the bombers are just bait, attack the fighters on-site, do not wait for the fighters to get close
As I was saying, the Brits started to just stop letting themselves get baited by fighters. Any BF-109 planes you sent ahead of the bombers, would just get ignored and left to happily roam around unmolested until they ran out of fuel, got bored, and went home.

Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
5. Failing to work out how to get a city on fire and then doing it
Actually, terror bombing doesn't actually work. There's a German report all the way back from the Condor Legion in the Spanish Civil War, that bombing civilians doesn't make people want to surrender. Quite the opposite. It makes them want revenge and strengthens their resolve.

It's debated if it made it far enough up the totem pole to be seen by Göring, let alone Hitler, but it was there.

And consequently Germany never really had a terror bombing doctrine, or not until they switched to bombing London. And I'll come back to London later.

One can point out Manchester or Rotterdam, but even those weren't actually planned as a way to terrorize civilians. In fact, the Luftwaffe even dropped flares first to mark the industrial zones and all. Then missed them anyway, because the German bomb sights were THAT bad.

The more accurate thing to say is that Germany, while it didn't INTEND to waste bombs and planes on terrorizing civilians, it also didn't give a flying f-bomb about collateral damage. The civilians pretty much didn't matter either way. You didn't go out of your way to bomb them, but you also didn't give a rodent's rear if a few thousand died in a fire, a la Rotterdam.

Which brings us to London. Germany still wasn't planning to start any terror bombing, until the RAF bombed Berlin. (Because some Luftwaffe pilots accidentally dropped some bombs on London, prompting the RAF to respond in kind.) The damage was actually insignificant, but the British propaganda was having a field day with it. And Hitler took notice of just that: how much of a PROPAGANDA value it has.

And really that was the whole point of bombing London afterwards. Some thousands of people died in a fire or lost their homes, just so Goebbels could do some really rousing propaganda speeches. That was it, really.

As such, it also wasn't really important to be better at setting stuff on fire or anything.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 08:31 PM   #103
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
This might be a double reverse flip snatch of defeat from victory: Elektra-sonne.

One thing the Germans were good at was precision equipment. Elektra-sonne was a set of base stations radiating electronic beams over long distances, particularly the North Atlantic. A couple of stations could form a grid over a huge area. Patrolling ships and planes could get exceptionally good positional details using just basic equipment and calculations.

When the British discovered this in operation, rather than bombing the crap out of the stations and thus giving away that they knew what it was for, they decided to use it themselves. This was because Elektra-sonne required no back-to-base communications. So the Germans provided the same service to Coastal Command without it being known to them, under the codename CONSOL.

But the double-flip was that, post-war, Elektra-sonne was continued into civilian use as the most reliable and accurate long-distance navigation system, until more sophisticated tools and GPS became common. It lasted until the 1990's, IIRC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonne_(navigation)
Britain deployed a similar system that used long wave signals and a dedicated receiver, it too was used well in to the 90s. the Decca system. It wasn't discovered by the Germans.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decca_Navigator_System
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2021, 11:59 PM   #104
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
For the same reasons lots of projects get money and resources poured in to them long after they should have been abandoned and are known not to work.

See any UK government IT contract for a host of examples.
Upon more thinking about it... well, sorta, but there are also differences.

The main one being that any semblance of an actual government in Germany has pretty much ceased to work. It's not just that Hitler has reduced the size of the bureaucracy, but it's become a jungle, pretty much. Hitler actually encourages cut-throat competition and overlapping responsibilities among his minions, in the name of social Darwinism and showing that they have the will to conquer. (And some would argue, so that everyone is too busy backstabbing others and watching their own back, so they can't collude against Hitler.) Orders from above are routinely ignored, at least as long as they're not directly from Adolf (which they rarely are), and orders often come from the sides instead. The minions generally left to do pretty much whatever TF they want, as long as they end up doing what he wants, but he actually gives only vague directives now and then, and leaves them to figure it out.

In effect, there IS the "Führer Prinzip", basically that whatever Adolf wants is more important than anything else, laws and policies included, but Adolf doesn't really lead much himself, at least outside military stuff. In fact, he rarely even attends cabinet meetings or anything. He's not even interested in leading the economy short term or anything. He only really has very long term visions. He drops some wish on his minions now and then, and lets them fight over who can best figure out what he wants. That one gets rewarded.

And quite often they take the opportunity to just line their own pockets while they're at it.

Since we're talking Luftwaffe procurement, Milch is pretty much the poster boy for just doing whatever TF he wants, and ignoring what Göring wants. In fact, by the 40's, Göring has flat out lost any control over what planes his Luftwaffe gets. Milch eventually even tries to coup Göring, loses, and is rescued by Speer anyway, so there's still no consequence to face.

Milch pulls stunts such as flat out excluding Messerschmidt from the fighter trials pre-war, just because he personally doesn't like Messerschmidt. As in, the person. The BF-109 wins anyway, because the offer comes from the the Bayrische Flugzeugwerke (future BMW) factory instead of Messerschmidt, hence the BF name.

And that already tells you all you need to know about procurement generally. Contracts are awarded more based on who is friends with whom, and occasionally how much someone thinks it would impress Adolf, than any real merits in that programme.

So basically Göring may hate the He 177, but he doesn't really has a say in it. He has already lost control over his Luftwaffe's procurement. Hitler may hate it, but he also doesn't like stepping in and saying "yo, cut it out." Speer only cares about showing production numbers going up, regardless of whether it actually helps anyone. And Milch doesn't seem to give an f-bomb about anything else than his own power and connections anyway.

So, anyway, it's a bit more chaotic than even the current government IT projects.

And perhaps that kind of deliberate institutional chaos is worth a nomination itself as a way to snatch defeat from any chance of victory.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 20th January 2021 at 12:02 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 04:59 AM   #105
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
There was no sense to any weapon procurements. Each service had it's own procurement system and the various manufacturers were all pushing their won weapons.

Forgotten Weapons has a series of vids on the various semi auto rifle designs and later in the war the various assault rifles.
Rather than having one design there were several competing systems all pushed by the various manufacturers and arms of service. Navy, Air Force, SS all had their own different procurements.
There was a lot of duplicated effort and expense right back to the 30s and even over things like officers service pistols.

Contrast with the US, Russia, Britain and Japan where standard weapons were issued to all arms of service and there were a few 'alternate' standard weapons developed as 'insurance'.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 05:19 AM   #106
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,733
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
There was no sense to any weapon procurements. Each service had it's own procurement system and the various manufacturers were all pushing their won weapons.

Forgotten Weapons has a series of vids on the various semi auto rifle designs and later in the war the various assault rifles.
Rather than having one design there were several competing systems all pushed by the various manufacturers and arms of service. Navy, Air Force, SS all had their own different procurements.
There was a lot of duplicated effort and expense right back to the 30s and even over things like officers service pistols.

Contrast with the US, Russia, Britain and Japan where standard weapons were issued to all arms of service and there were a few 'alternate' standard weapons developed as 'insurance'.
It's quite ironic that the wartime economies of the western democracies were much, much more state controlled than the one of nazi Germany.
That's a disadvantage of being the original agressor. You have to be much more carefull with popular support by your citizens than when the mood is that war really is forced upon you. People are much more willing to go all in then.

I was rather surprised, when reading Stargardt's 'The German War' about how far into the war, Goebbels still was nervous about the morale of the German people and the nazis still thought some things to be off limits in imposing a true wartime economy. They got there in the end, but it simply took too long.

Not that it would have mattered in the end.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 07:38 AM   #107
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
There was no sense to any weapon procurements. Each service had it's own procurement system and the various manufacturers were all pushing their won weapons.
As I was saying, it's even worse than that. Not only each service had their own, but quite routinely the guy in charge of procurement contracted something else than the army/navy/airforce actually wanted (see, the He 177, Porsche's giant tanks, etc), or had to work around all sorts of pressures from the sides and political minefields from people who wanted to push something else than the army/navy/airforce actually wanted (again, see Porsche's giant tanks.)

I mean, in the USA if the army (or originally the navy) wanted a B-17, it could get a B-17. If some procurement guy instead contracted a glide-bomber that didn't even work, because he's best buddies with the manufacturer, there would have been some kind of inquiry. And quite likely it would have been a career terminating move.

Or if in the UK the army wanted Churchill tanks, it tended to get Churchill tank. If some procurement guy decided to sink money into TOGs instead, just because the old gang's got connections, a lot of people would be suddenly interested in how that happened.

In Nazi Germany pretty much even outright corruption wasn't really frowned upon, as long as you had the connections or otherwise could get away with it. After all, it showed that you had the Aryan "will to conquer" your enemies.

And not just party and army officials. To keep himself in power, Adolf had to keep the industrialists happy too, so contracts were given just to keep them happy.

So basically the economy, government and even the state as a whole were primed to snatch defeat before the war even started.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 20th January 2021 at 07:40 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 07:54 AM   #108
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,168
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
It's quite ironic that the wartime economies of the western democracies were much, much more state controlled than the one of nazi Germany.
.
Its not terribly surprising. Almost all authoritarian regimes end up with subordinates jostling and fighting for position and power under their charismatic leader. They do whatever they can to get the goodies they want and the overall economic situation can be damned.

The Luftwaffe had a freaking Panzer Division, that's all you need to know about Nazi efficiency.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 08:36 AM   #109
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,733
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Its not terribly surprising. Almost all authoritarian regimes end up with subordinates jostling and fighting for position and power under their charismatic leader. They do whatever they can to get the goodies they want and the overall economic situation can be damned.

The Luftwaffe had a freaking Panzer Division, that's all you need to know about Nazi efficiency.
yeah. nazi procurement is something to be studied carefully. Alongside that of the USA.
One in order to avoid and the other (even though they also had their issues) in order to emulate.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2021, 10:49 AM   #110
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,168
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
yeah. nazi procurement is something to be studied carefully. Alongside that of the USA.
One in order to avoid and the other (even though they also had their issues) in order to emulate.
I mean, you can make jokes about parts of the US model, such as the Army having more floating craft than the Navy ( it was landing craft tho..) but nothing compares to ludicrous convoluted nature of Nazi procurement.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2021, 10:20 AM   #111
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
There was some duplication in he US system though.
For example the US Marines were still waiting for their M1 Garand rifles at the start of the war.
There was a trials competitor alongside the M1 in the form of the Johnson automatic rifle. It didn't win the US competition but several thousand were ordered by the Netherlands for issue to the KNIL in the Dutch East Indies. When the war started these were taken over by the US govt and issued to the Marines.

They lobbied for it to become their standard rifle but they got the M1 like the army.
Not that the Johnson was a bad rifle but it didn't make sense to have two different rifles in production when the M1 was a better rifle and arguably the best semi auto rifle of the war.

(I know the Russians and Germans used one with a magazine that held more rounds than the M1 8 round enblock clip, but they were only issued with 1 or sometimes 2 magazines that had to be hand reloaded from boxes of loose rounds. All the M1 ammo came ready in clips and it could be reloaded in seconds and they were more reliable and simpler to field strip etc)
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 01:39 PM   #112
Major Major
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
22 destroyers at the start, they lost 8 of them at Narvik.
None of them were very good sea boats, the ones with the twin turret at the bow were particularly renowned for being 'wet' in a swell which meant the bow turret was of limited use in rough weather and their heavy roll meant that accurate shooting was difficult from the other weapons. They were never meant to operate in the Atlantic they were coastal craft meant for North Sea and Baltic operation. Same with the torpedo boats but even more so.
Eight were sunk at Second Narvik, but two more had been sunk at First Narvik.

And two more destroyers were bombed and sunk while laying mines.

Unfortunately, it was the Luftwaffe that bombed them . . .

Major Major is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 03:34 PM   #113
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 31,858
Only 8 of them were completely lost, two were recovered.

they were 'over gunned' for their displacement and none of them were good 'sea boats'

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 23rd January 2021 at 03:35 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 04:38 PM   #114
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Yes, well, it still doesn't mean that you couldn't find some to send along, if you really wanted to get some more of them sunk
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 09:50 PM   #115
Major Major
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Only 8 of them were completely lost, two were recovered.
Um?
Z1 Sunk by Luftwaffe
Z2 Sunk at Narvik
Z3 Sunk by Luftwaffe
Z4 Survived war
Z5 Survived war
Z6 Survived war
Z7 Sunk off Bear Island
Z8 Sunk by mine
Z9 Sunk at Narvik
Z10 Survived war
Z11 Sunk at Narvik
Z12 Sunk at Narvik
Z13 Sunk at Narvik
Z14 Survived war
Z15 Survived war
Z16 Sunk at Barents Sea
Z17 Sunk at Narvik
Z18 Sunk at Narvik
Z19 Sunk at Narvik
Z20 Survived war
Z21 Sunk at Narvik
Z22 Sunk at Narvik

None of the ones sunk at Narvik seems to have been raised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German..._II_destroyers


Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
they were 'over gunned' for their displacement and none of them were good 'sea boats'
This applies more to the 1938A types, which had a double turret for 15-cm guns forward.

Major Major is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 09:53 PM   #116
Major Major
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Its not terribly surprising. Almost all authoritarian regimes end up with subordinates jostling and fighting for position and power under their charismatic leader. They do whatever they can to get the goodies they want and the overall economic situation can be damned.

The Luftwaffe had a freaking Panzer Division, that's all you need to know about Nazi efficiency.
And the SS had a parachute battalion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500th_...hute_Battalion

Major Major is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 10:07 PM   #117
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
Yes, but they captured some 18 more from the likes of the French and the Dutch. Which I mentioned before. Hell, they even had a Greek one in the Mediterranean, although obviously that one couldn't get out into the Atlantic.

Plus, Raeder was planning to build more (though he never got the resources to actually complete them.)

So for the purpose of his plan to send the Bismarck to tank the fire from the enemy battleship, while the destroyers go after the transports, yes, he would have enough destroyers to send with the Bismarck.

Mind you, it's still a stupid plan, but lack of destroyers is the least of its problems.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 23rd January 2021 at 10:11 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 10:44 PM   #118
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 26,506
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Yes, but they captured some 18 more from the likes of the French and the Dutch. Which I mentioned before. Hell, they even had a Greek one in the Mediterranean, although obviously that one couldn't get out into the Atlantic.

Plus, Raeder was planning to build more (though he never got the resources to actually complete them.)

So for the purpose of his plan to send the Bismarck to tank the fire from the enemy battleship, while the destroyers go after the transports, yes, he would have enough destroyers to send with the Bismarck.

Mind you, it's still a stupid plan, but lack of destroyers is the least of its problems.
The British followed the Bismarck using their destroyers. If the Bismarck had their own destroyers maybe they could have chased away or even sunk these destroyers.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd January 2021, 10:54 PM   #119
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,006
If you mean the Norfolk and Suffolk, those were heavy cruisers of the county class. They could probably rip a destroyer a new one.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th January 2021, 08:24 AM   #120
rehn
Scholar
 
rehn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 65
OPs wrong
__________________
You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!

Last edited by rehn; 24th January 2021 at 08:27 AM.
rehn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:54 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.