Michael Moore newsletter 12/20 - Page 2

Zero · 22nd December 2003, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Troll
And some are like Zero who want to get in get the bennies and get out.

What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks.

Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking.

Troll · 22nd December 2003, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks.

Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking.

And how did you get the metal in your leg? Was it a factor in your discharge? Did you take the GI Bill? Did you intend to stay in longer than one enlistment? Other than a Good Conduct medal, what others did you earn?

Zero · 22nd December 2003, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Troll

And how did you get the metal in your leg? Was it a factor in your discharge? Did you take the GI Bill? Did you intend to stay in longer than one enlistment? Other than a Good Conduct medal, what others did you earn?

Dude, you missed my NAM...and I really don't think this thread should be about my military service. If it is, I'd rather talk about this nation's fine strip clubs, and how they treat our troops...

Luke T. · 22nd December 2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks.

Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking.

I agree with the absolute necessity to hear an alternative viewpoint, and I appreciate everything you have to say. I think the disagreement here is with Mr. Moore and his well-established pattern of deception. These letters just seem to be another one in a series of deceptions. Sure, he got letters from unhappy military men, but they in no way represent anything more than a tiny fraction of the military.

I do not doubt your military service or your patriotism.

As for the strip clubs, just remember, there's no sex in the champagne room!!!

rikzilla · 22nd December 2003, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
In other words, you DO want to see my medals?!?

No,

I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??)
Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are)

-z

Luke T. · 22nd December 2003, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla

No,

I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??)
Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are)

-z

I don't know when Zero got out, but I've only been retired for three years, and already I can't remember all of my NEC numbers. I can remember all of my duty stations and PCS dates and so on, though.

rikzilla · 22nd December 2003, 08:35 AM

Back on topic....

The only troops that are ever going to write a letter to such a person as MM will usually have negative things to say about Bush and the military mission in Iraq. Even if he got letters telling him what a piece of crap he is I doubt he'd share those with us. Therefore Shemp's posting of this nonsense is merely another episode of data mining.

-z

(BTW,...I don't believe Zero. If he has "11 pieces of metal" in his leg, then how did that happen? Sounds like it would be a great story?? Also, one would think he'd have listed the purple heart among his few medals.)

rikzilla · 22nd December 2003, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke T.

I don't know when Zero got out, but I've only been retired for three years, and already I can't remember all of my NEC numbers. I can remember all of my duty stations and PCS dates and so on, though.

I ETS'd on July 14th 1981...and I still remember both my primary and secondary MOS nbrs. Zeros a poseur...trust me. My S detector is buzzing.

-z

Ralph · 22nd December 2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla

I ETS'd on July 14th 1981...and I still remember both my primary and secondary MOS nbrs. Zeros a poseur...trust me. My S detector is buzzing.

-z

Speaking of "S" detectors going off....in another thread Zero argues that a non US - UN military force could've kicked the living crap out of the Iraquis.

He then goes on to argue AGAINST the US having command of an invasion force..and then goes on to imply that the US must have "less than noble goals for wanting to control the invasion points".

Does this sound like a US marine talking????????

Would a marine going into a well defended urban environment---defended with dug in troops, tanks, and possibly even nerve gas.....argue that rather than be under the command of his own officers.......he'd prefer a motley crew of unknowns--some of whom may not even speak his language-----simply because it's the PC thing to do??????

I think the majority of US troops recognize MM for what he is........an over-fed publicity whore who's doing them far more harm then good.

I think HE should visit the troops over there. I wonder what kind of reception he'd get.

Zero · 22nd December 2003, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla

No,

I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??)
Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are)

-z

Would you like my SSN and my credit card numbers too?!? LOL

BTW, in arty, the unit is 'battery', not 'company'.

Zero · 22nd December 2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rikzilla

(BTW,...I don't believe Zero. If he has "11 pieces of metal" in his leg, then how did that happen? Sounds like it would be a great story?? Also, one would think he'd have listed the purple heart among his few medals.)

Actually, it isn't any sort of exciting story at all...we were on the OP just off Sicily drop zone at Ft. Bragg, and while we were packing out I got my foot caught in some gear and broke my leg in two places...

Now, anyone who served with me will know exactly who I am, and if I were lying, wouldn't I have a better story than that?

Jocko · 22nd December 2003, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
Actually, it isn't any sort of exciting story at all...we were on the OP just off Sicily drop zone at Ft. Bragg, and while we were packing out I got my foot caught in some gear and broke my leg in two places...

So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far.

By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel.

But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions.

Quote:

Now, anyone who served with me will know exactly who I am, and if I were lying, wouldn't I have a better story than that?

Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available?

Mr Manifesto · 22nd December 2003, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
[b]

So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far.

By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel.

But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions.

Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available?

What do you do for a living, Jocko?

Jocko · 22nd December 2003, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

What do you do for a living, Jocko?

Relevance? Since I'm long out of college and not hip to the current political trend du jour, I doubt we have much to discuss conversationally.

Mr Manifesto · 22nd December 2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko

Relevance? Since I'm long out of college and not hip to the current political trend du jour, I doubt we have much to discuss conversationally.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. What college are you going to? What're you studying?

Jocko · 22nd December 2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. What college are you going to? What're you studying?

I know you're a slow study when it comes to direct answers to direct questions - most of your political stripe are - but let me summarize.

Not a lady.
Not a college student, but completed college many years ago. You may have been tipped off to this fact when I mentioned I was years beyond college (a place you can only dream of).
I studied English Literature, Creative Writing, Latin and Theatre. I took my degree in Lit/Writing.
I'm old enough to remember what a washout Carter was.

And one thing I never, never do is protest too much. I leave that to the kiddies in the classroom, who are unencumbered by such distractions as... oh, say, reality.

Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal.

Mr Manifesto · 22nd December 2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko

I know you're a slow study when it comes to direct answers to direct questions - most of your political stripe are - but let me summarize.

Not a lady.
Not a college student, but completed college many years ago. You may have been tipped off to this fact when I mentioned I was years beyond college (a place you can only dream of).
I studied English Literature, Creative Writing, Latin and Theatre. I took my degree in Lit/Writing.
I'm old enough to remember what a washout Carter was.

And one thing I never, never do is protest too much. I leave that to the kiddies in the classroom, who are unencumbered by such distractions as... oh, say, reality.

Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal.

Wow, another n00b pretending to be a "Carter era" vet. Everything you know about Carter, you got off a moderate right-wing web site. Unless you can tell us what some of your essays were titled with a brief synopsis?

Jocko · 22nd December 2003, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

Wow, another n00b pretending to be a "Carter era" vet. Everything you know about Carter, you got off a moderate right-wing web site. Unless you can tell us what some of your essays were titled with a brief synopsis?

Your choice of "n00b" perfectly demonstrates why someone like me has no personal interest in someone like you. And if you're going to try to goad me into giving up something, you're going to have to be a little less transparent, son.

Amazing, how you seem to know everything about me. Never fear, I thought I knew everything when I was your age too. The real world will cure you of that soon enough.

Edited to add: A quick look confirms that I've been here for two years, as opposed to your 9 months. While you may have racked up a billion posts since then, you have yet to make a single point.... n00b.

The Fool · 22nd December 2003, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko

Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal.

well jocko old son...you are typing in English so your English qualifications (if they are true) are relevant..... I personally don't see how any opinion you could have that is typed in english can be taken seriously when there is so much doubt about your college experience...

Also I doubt If rik has ever been a Major General....oops, hang on, he has never claimed that, sorry rik.

Luke may have been in the Navy and I may be the queen of Sheeba. Shemp is definitely an Ex CIA agent and probably trans-sexual. Manifesto is actually 5 years old and has to sit on His sisters Knee to reach the keyboard........

Have I missed anything else as important as Zero's military record??

Jocko · 22nd December 2003, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool

Have I missed anything else as important as Zero's military record??

When you claim it as the basis for an almost clairvoyant ability to judge the mindset of the average soldier, then yes, it is relevant, particularly when it is stacked against so many contrary (and frankly, more credible) assessments.

Why would you feel so threatened by that? I know Mr. M is simply trolling for trouble - so sue me if I make him work for it.

UnrepentantSinner · 22nd December 2003, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke T.
It has always been a complaint, during war or peace, among military people that they don't have enough equipment. Even during the glory days of the buildup under Reagan, we occasionally found ourselves buying parts at Radio Shack out of our own pockets.

Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets.

Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached?

Luke T. · 22nd December 2003, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets.

Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached?

Only around the office.

Troll · 22nd December 2003, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets.

Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached?

Do you need one? I got out in 1994 and recently discovered I have like 10 working ones around the house. It wasn't theft. I just kept leaving the one I had in my other set of cammies.

Jocko · 22nd December 2003, 10:43 PM

I see Mr. Manifesto has crawled back under his rock after tossing the obligatory daily grenade. Why is he always surprised when the target throws it back at him? I mean, it happens all the time. I thought these college kids were supposed to be smart. Ah well, I guess they can't all be winners.

Oh, those crazy kids. Remember when you were that age?

Troll · 22nd December 2003, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
I see Mr. Manifesto has crawled back under his rock after tossing the obligatory daily grenade. Why is he always surprised when the target throws it back at him? I mean, it happens all the time. I thought these college kids were supposed to be smart. Ah well, I guess they can't all be winners.

Oh, those crazy kids. Remember when you were that age?

I do remember when I was that age. I was throwing real grenades and hanging out with about 185,000 other guys that would say Moore, Manifesto and AUP were actually the mindless drones being led by lies they would like to claim we were.

The Fool · 22nd December 2003, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Troll

I do remember when I was that age. I was throwing real grenades and hanging out with about 185,000 other guys that would say Moore, Manifesto and AUP were actually the mindless drones being led by lies they would like to claim we were.

Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind.

Jocko · 22nd December 2003, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool

Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind.

Uh, he mentioned his service in support of an opinion, not as the basis of an assertion of fact like Zero did. Therein lies the critical difference.

As to me, let me just tell you that I've served in the elite corps of the Salvation Army. Yeah, you heard me right, nancy-boy. Those sissies in the marines and army rangers have nothing on me.

Yeah, it's left some scars. Deep scars. I can still hear the bells.

Edited to add: For the humor-impaired (like Mr. Manifesto), that's what we call a joke. I figured I'd better cover my bases before you took off and ran with it as you're so prone to do.

Troll · 22nd December 2003, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Fool

Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind.

Well I'm not one of those little paranoid people. I'd block out the social security number, because I'm not a moron either, but I'd gladly post my DD-214 and whatever anyone else that doubts me feel they may need.

Never said they all shared the same mind. You seem to read what you want in a post, which explains your failings with Skeptic. I said "about 185,000.

Zero · 23rd December 2003, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko

When you claim it as the basis for an almost clairvoyant ability to judge the mindset of the average soldier, then yes, it is relevant, particularly when it is stacked against so many contrary (and frankly, more credible) assessments.

Why would you feel so threatened by that? I know Mr. M is simply trolling for trouble - so sue me if I make him work for it.

That's odd, I only claimed that I heard more than one viewpoint when I was in. Some people apparently think that the military is like Rush Limbaugh's dittoheads, and only have one opinion. I even said that the viewpoints Moore was showing were a minority one, so where's your beef?

Zero · 23rd December 2003, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jocko
[b]

So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far.

By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel.

But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions.

Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available?

Actually, it was a plate, 6 screws, 2 pins, and two staples.

And, look, since you don't know how to read what I post, stop responding to it. When did I say that the opinions stated were the 'average soldier's'? Nowhere, especially since I was defending those opinions as a valid MINORITY viewpoint.

Zero · 23rd December 2003, 12:48 AM

Anyhoo, I'm waiting for INTERESTING questions about my service, or I'd prefer to let the whole thing drop...

You know, the stuff that interests the average Marine, like how much those 30-packs of Coors Extra Gold were on base, or which "dancer" was my favorite at Ft. Sill....($10.99, and Maggie with the 'million dollar a$$')

UnrepentantSinner · 23rd December 2003, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
Anyhoo, I'm waiting for INTERESTING questions about my service, or I'd prefer to let the whole thing drop...

You know, the stuff that interests the average Marine, like how much those 30-packs of Coors Extra Gold were on base, or which "dancer" was my favorite at Ft. Sill....($10.99, and Maggie with the 'million dollar a$$')

That clinches it for me. You knew Jarheads get their artillery training at Ft. Sill. A poseur would have said Quantico or 29 Palms or something.

Couple more tests to make absolutely sure though. Please define the first two and explain the third.

Ogive
Polaris-Cochab
101 or 119

Zero · 23rd December 2003, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

That clinches it for me. You knew Jarheads get their artillery training at Ft. Sill. A poseur would have said Quantico or 29 Palms or something.

Couple more tests to make absolutely sure though. Please define the first two and explain the third.

Ogive
Polaris-Cochab
101 or 119

Ummm....the first one I'm at a loss for, Polaris-Cochab is familiar, something about land nav, I think?

Dude, I was FDC and Survey most of the time...and I learned the IFSAS by rote...so I could probably alt-A, alt N you though a fire mission, or lay some guns(with a T2-E, not an aiming circle, only the batteries used crappy old aiming circles), MP-HOB registrations maybe, but that's about it...mostly, I remember drilling in SEAD missions and trying to bracket targets...

BTW, I was at Ft. Sill TWICE....jeez, that place sucks!!

Zero · 23rd December 2003, 02:51 AM

Oh, and ummm...101 and 119 are howitzers? If they are, they must be 105mm howitzers, because we used 155mm exclusively. Darned Army has all sorts of neat stuff the Marines never get!!

UnrepentantSinner · 23rd December 2003, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zero
Oh, and ummm...101 and 119 are howitzers? If they are, they must be 105mm howitzers, because we used 155mm exclusively. Darned Army has all sorts of neat stuff the Marines never get!!

The must have fully fazed out the old M-101 105mm by the time you went through. They sucked for gunnery because the declination was only 3200 mils or something like that. They even had blast shields them.

I trained on the 102 for my 105mm for gunnery. And they were just introducing the M-119 and Paladin and what would be come Cusader was still referred to as AFAS. On the obselencance side, the Guard unit I was going to was 8in. I sent about 20 of those down range during gunnery. I was supposed to do MLRS school, but never got the chance as I blew out my back during the last few weeks of OBC and was medically retired a few months after completing it and like 2 drills with my NG unit.

FAOBC was cool though as I got experience in gunnery, Fire Support and Fire Direction.

Ogive btw is where the fuse screws into the shell (technically to ogive ring) and Polaris-Kochab is a night time surveying method (again, probably obsolete in these days of GPS).

Zero · 23rd December 2003, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner

The must have fully fazed out the old M-101 105mm by the time you went through. They sucked for gunnery because the declination was only 3200 mils or something like that. They even had blast shields them.

I trained on the 102 for my 105mm for gunnery. And they were just introducing the M-119 and Paladin and what would be come Cusader was still referred to as AFAS. On the obselencance side, the Guard unit I was going to was 8in. I sent about 20 of those down range during gunnery. I was supposed to do MLRS school, but never got the chance as I blew out my back during the last few weeks of OBC and was medically retired a few months after completing it and like 2 drills with my NG unit.

FAOBC was cool though as I got experience in gunnery, Fire Support and Fire Direction.

Ogive btw is where the fuse screws into the shell (technically to ogive ring) and Polaris-Kochab is a night time surveying method (again, probably obsolete in these days of GPS).

Yeah, well...when I went through, mostly what I remember about the guns was wondering why they would use bags of cordite(?) with numbers on them to propel the round, in the late 20th century...and laughing when the gun bunnies tried to do a 'hasty shift' of the guns by picking up the trails and moving the gun around by brute force!!!

LOL, and I was always weak in night survey, with the PADS and all, and the warrant officer being too lazy to go outside at night...

You ever had to fill out one of the DA 4446 books, the little brown ones that would couldn't erase in, and you had to void the whole page if you made too many mistakes? My handwriting is STILL tiny from those!

UnrepentantSinner · 23rd December 2003, 03:26 AM

As someone who was in FDC you must appreciate how simple the firing process is compared to how truly difficult it would be using firing tables (and worse yet log books) to adjust simply with elevation and declination if there was just one poweder bag to fit all. That's not to say it's easy... just a hell of a lot more simple than it could be.

The gunnery was fun. I enjoyed firing the 105mm for most of our practice and and of course the 8 inch. The only guys I felt really sorry for were those using the M-198. Man what a pain the a** that must be to work on the crew. I also got to fire a 107mm mortar during a familiarization day with the Mech pukes.

Fire Direction was interesting because it challenged you mentally and you really got into the science of artillery. Fire Support was fun because we got to blow s*** up and it's more of the art of artillery.

Did you ever get to see a combined arms demonstration with a million dollar minute? The one they put on for us started with an old Civil War bronze cannon, then a French 75, introduced the M-119 and M--109A6 Paladin then progressed to the Mil$minute. We had tanks, tube artillery, Apaches, MLRS and even a B-1 out of Dyess flying around. It was amazing.

I forget most of the forms we had to fill out but I do remember how persnickerty we had to be with filling them out correctly. Nothing ends an officers career faster than a gun exploding and killing 5 people.

Did you do the old fashioned plotting boards, slide rules and log books or did they finally get rid of that stuff?

Graham · 23rd December 2003, 03:41 AM

What's a million dollar minute?

Graham

UnrepentantSinner · 23rd December 2003, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Graham
What's a million dollar minute?

Graham

It's when all the weapons systems fire at about the same time expending "a million dollars" in ordenance in about a minute. I was able to find a Geocites page that Google showed has photos of an example, unfortunately the page was dead.

shemp · 23rd December 2003, 05:53 AM

The Fool wrote:

Quote:

Shemp is definitely an Ex CIA agent and probably trans-sexual.

The latter is definitely untrue. I just like to dress up now and then.

As for the former, the helicopters are on their way. For your own good, please stay where you are and do not resist.

22nd December 2003, 01:07 AM	#41
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Quote: Originally posted by Troll And some are like Zero who want to get in get the bennies and get out. What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks. Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking.
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

22nd December 2003, 01:13 AM	#42
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478	Quote: Originally posted by Zero What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks. Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking. And how did you get the metal in your leg? Was it a factor in your discharge? Did you take the GI Bill? Did you intend to stay in longer than one enlistment? Other than a Good Conduct medal, what others did you earn?
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478

22nd December 2003, 01:18 AM	#43
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Quote: Originally posted by Troll And how did you get the metal in your leg? Was it a factor in your discharge? Did you take the GI Bill? Did you intend to stay in longer than one enlistment? Other than a Good Conduct medal, what others did you earn? Dude, you missed my NAM...and I really don't think this thread should be about my military service. If it is, I'd rather talk about this nation's fine strip clubs, and how they treat our troops...
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

22nd December 2003, 08:02 AM	#44
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,708	Quote: Originally posted by Zero What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks. Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking. I agree with the absolute necessity to hear an alternative viewpoint, and I appreciate everything you have to say. I think the disagreement here is with Mr. Moore and his well-established pattern of deception. These letters just seem to be another one in a series of deceptions. Sure, he got letters from unhappy military men, but they in no way represent anything more than a tiny fraction of the military. I do not doubt your military service or your patriotism. As for the strip clubs, just remember, there's no sex in the champagne room!!!
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,708

22nd December 2003, 08:21 AM	#45
rikzilla Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 5,009	Quote: Originally posted by Zero In other words, you DO want to see my medals?!? No, I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??) Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are) -z
	__________________ "Man, if Socrates thought like Rick, I don't think Socrates would have ever written a word." - "Red" (@ Red Pill Philosophy FB page)

22nd December 2003, 08:32 AM	#46
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,708	Quote: Originally posted by rikzilla No, I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??) Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are) -z I don't know when Zero got out, but I've only been retired for three years, and already I can't remember all of my NEC numbers. I can remember all of my duty stations and PCS dates and so on, though.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,708

22nd December 2003, 08:35 AM	#47
rikzilla Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 5,009	Back on topic.... The only troops that are ever going to write a letter to such a person as MM will usually have negative things to say about Bush and the military mission in Iraq. Even if he got letters telling him what a piece of crap he is I doubt he'd share those with us. Therefore Shemp's posting of this nonsense is merely another episode of data mining. -z (BTW,...I don't believe Zero. If he has "11 pieces of metal" in his leg, then how did that happen? Sounds like it would be a great story?? Also, one would think he'd have listed the purple heart among his few medals.)
	__________________ "Man, if Socrates thought like Rick, I don't think Socrates would have ever written a word." - "Red" (@ Red Pill Philosophy FB page)

22nd December 2003, 08:38 AM	#48
rikzilla Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 5,009	Quote: Originally posted by Luke T. I don't know when Zero got out, but I've only been retired for three years, and already I can't remember all of my NEC numbers. I can remember all of my duty stations and PCS dates and so on, though. I ETS'd on July 14th 1981...and I still remember both my primary and secondary MOS nbrs. Zeros a poseur...trust me. My S detector is buzzing. -z
	__________________ "Man, if Socrates thought like Rick, I don't think Socrates would have ever written a word." - "Red" (@ Red Pill Philosophy FB page)

22nd December 2003, 11:39 AM	#49
Ralph Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 999	Quote: Originally posted by rikzilla I ETS'd on July 14th 1981...and I still remember both my primary and secondary MOS nbrs. Zeros a poseur...trust me. My S detector is buzzing. -z Speaking of "S" detectors going off....in another thread Zero argues that a non US - UN military force could've kicked the living crap out of the Iraquis. He then goes on to argue AGAINST the US having command of an invasion force..and then goes on to imply that the US must have "less than noble goals for wanting to control the invasion points". Does this sound like a US marine talking???????? Would a marine going into a well defended urban environment---defended with dug in troops, tanks, and possibly even nerve gas.....argue that rather than be under the command of his own officers.......he'd prefer a motley crew of unknowns--some of whom may not even speak his language-----simply because it's the PC thing to do?????? I think the majority of US troops recognize MM for what he is........an over-fed publicity whore who's doing them far more harm then good. I think HE should visit the troops over there. I wonder what kind of reception he'd get.
Ralph Muse Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 999

22nd December 2003, 12:35 PM	#50
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Quote: Originally posted by rikzilla No, I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??) Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are) -z Would you like my SSN and my credit card numbers too?!? LOL BTW, in arty, the unit is 'battery', not 'company'.
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

22nd December 2003, 12:40 PM	#51
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Quote: Originally posted by rikzilla (BTW,...I don't believe Zero. If he has "11 pieces of metal" in his leg, then how did that happen? Sounds like it would be a great story?? Also, one would think he'd have listed the purple heart among his few medals.) Actually, it isn't any sort of exciting story at all...we were on the OP just off Sicily drop zone at Ft. Bragg, and while we were packing out I got my foot caught in some gear and broke my leg in two places... Now, anyone who served with me will know exactly who I am, and if I were lying, wouldn't I have a better story than that?
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

22nd December 2003, 04:45 PM	#52
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467	Quote: Originally posted by Zero Actually, it isn't any sort of exciting story at all...we were on the OP just off Sicily drop zone at Ft. Bragg, and while we were packing out I got my foot caught in some gear and broke my leg in two places... So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far. By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel. But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions. Quote: Now, anyone who served with me will know exactly who I am, and if I were lying, wouldn't I have a better story than that? Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available?
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467

22nd December 2003, 05:00 PM	#53
Mr Manifesto Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,815	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko [b] So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far. By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel. But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions. Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available? What do you do for a living, Jocko?

22nd December 2003, 07:48 PM	#54
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467	Quote: Originally posted by Mr Manifesto What do you do for a living, Jocko? Relevance? Since I'm long out of college and not hip to the current political trend du jour, I doubt we have much to discuss conversationally.
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467

22nd December 2003, 08:14 PM	#55
Mr Manifesto Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,815	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko Relevance? Since I'm long out of college and not hip to the current political trend du jour, I doubt we have much to discuss conversationally. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. What college are you going to? What're you studying?

22nd December 2003, 08:23 PM	#56
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467	Quote: Originally posted by Mr Manifesto The lady doth protest too much, methinks. What college are you going to? What're you studying? I know you're a slow study when it comes to direct answers to direct questions - most of your political stripe are - but let me summarize. Not a lady. Not a college student, but completed college many years ago. You may have been tipped off to this fact when I mentioned I was years beyond college (a place you can only dream of). I studied English Literature, Creative Writing, Latin and Theatre. I took my degree in Lit/Writing. I'm old enough to remember what a washout Carter was. And one thing I never, never do is protest too much. I leave that to the kiddies in the classroom, who are unencumbered by such distractions as... oh, say, reality. Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal.
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467

22nd December 2003, 08:31 PM	#57
Mr Manifesto Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 4,815	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko I know you're a slow study when it comes to direct answers to direct questions - most of your political stripe are - but let me summarize. Not a lady. Not a college student, but completed college many years ago. You may have been tipped off to this fact when I mentioned I was years beyond college (a place you can only dream of). I studied English Literature, Creative Writing, Latin and Theatre. I took my degree in Lit/Writing. I'm old enough to remember what a washout Carter was. And one thing I never, never do is protest too much. I leave that to the kiddies in the classroom, who are unencumbered by such distractions as... oh, say, reality. Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal. Wow, another n00b pretending to be a "Carter era" vet. Everything you know about Carter, you got off a moderate right-wing web site. Unless you can tell us what some of your essays were titled with a brief synopsis?

22nd December 2003, 08:34 PM	#58
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467	Quote: Originally posted by Mr Manifesto Wow, another n00b pretending to be a "Carter era" vet. Everything you know about Carter, you got off a moderate right-wing web site. Unless you can tell us what some of your essays were titled with a brief synopsis? Your choice of "n00b" perfectly demonstrates why someone like me has no personal interest in someone like you. And if you're going to try to goad me into giving up something, you're going to have to be a little less transparent, son. Amazing, how you seem to know everything about me. Never fear, I thought I knew everything when I was your age too. The real world will cure you of that soon enough. Edited to add: A quick look confirms that I've been here for two years, as opposed to your 9 months. While you may have racked up a billion posts since then, you have yet to make a single point.... n00b.
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467

22nd December 2003, 08:42 PM	#59
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 13,611	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal. well jocko old son...you are typing in English so your English qualifications (if they are true) are relevant..... I personally don't see how any opinion you could have that is typed in english can be taken seriously when there is so much doubt about your college experience... Also I doubt If rik has ever been a Major General....oops, hang on, he has never claimed that, sorry rik. Luke may have been in the Navy and I may be the queen of Sheeba. Shemp is definitely an Ex CIA agent and probably trans-sexual. Manifesto is actually 5 years old and has to sit on His sisters Knee to reach the keyboard........ Have I missed anything else as important as Zero's military record??
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

22nd December 2003, 08:45 PM	#60
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467	Quote: Originally posted by The Fool Have I missed anything else as important as Zero's military record?? When you claim it as the basis for an almost clairvoyant ability to judge the mindset of the average soldier, then yes, it is relevant, particularly when it is stacked against so many contrary (and frankly, more credible) assessments. Why would you feel so threatened by that? I know Mr. M is simply trolling for trouble - so sue me if I make him work for it.
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467

22nd December 2003, 09:18 PM	#61
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 26,840	Quote: Originally posted by Luke T. It has always been a complaint, during war or peace, among military people that they don't have enough equipment. Even during the glory days of the buildup under Reagan, we occasionally found ourselves buying parts at Radio Shack out of our own pockets. Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets. Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached?

22nd December 2003, 09:58 PM	#62
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,708	Quote: Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets. Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached? Only around the office.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,708

22nd December 2003, 10:17 PM	#63
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478	Quote: Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets. Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached? Do you need one? I got out in 1994 and recently discovered I have like 10 working ones around the house. It wasn't theft. I just kept leaving the one I had in my other set of cammies.
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478

22nd December 2003, 10:43 PM	#64
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467	I see Mr. Manifesto has crawled back under his rock after tossing the obligatory daily grenade. Why is he always surprised when the target throws it back at him? I mean, it happens all the time. I thought these college kids were supposed to be smart. Ah well, I guess they can't all be winners. Oh, those crazy kids. Remember when you were that age?
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467

22nd December 2003, 10:49 PM	#65
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko I see Mr. Manifesto has crawled back under his rock after tossing the obligatory daily grenade. Why is he always surprised when the target throws it back at him? I mean, it happens all the time. I thought these college kids were supposed to be smart. Ah well, I guess they can't all be winners. Oh, those crazy kids. Remember when you were that age? I do remember when I was that age. I was throwing real grenades and hanging out with about 185,000 other guys that would say Moore, Manifesto and AUP were actually the mindless drones being led by lies they would like to claim we were.
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478

22nd December 2003, 10:56 PM	#66
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 13,611	Quote: Originally posted by Troll I do remember when I was that age. I was throwing real grenades and hanging out with about 185,000 other guys that would say Moore, Manifesto and AUP were actually the mindless drones being led by lies they would like to claim we were. Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

22nd December 2003, 10:59 PM	#67
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467	Quote: Originally posted by The Fool Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind. Uh, he mentioned his service in support of an opinion, not as the basis of an assertion of fact like Zero did. Therein lies the critical difference. As to me, let me just tell you that I've served in the elite corps of the Salvation Army. Yeah, you heard me right, nancy-boy. Those sissies in the marines and army rangers have nothing on me. Yeah, it's left some scars. Deep scars. I can still hear the bells. Edited to add: For the humor-impaired (like Mr. Manifesto), that's what we call a joke. I figured I'd better cover my bases before you took off and ran with it as you're so prone to do.
Jocko Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,467

22nd December 2003, 11:18 PM	#68
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478	Quote: Originally posted by The Fool Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind. Well I'm not one of those little paranoid people. I'd block out the social security number, because I'm not a moron either, but I'd gladly post my DD-214 and whatever anyone else that doubts me feel they may need. Never said they all shared the same mind. You seem to read what you want in a post, which explains your failings with Skeptic. I said "about 185,000.
Troll Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,478

23rd December 2003, 12:43 AM	#69
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko When you claim it as the basis for an almost clairvoyant ability to judge the mindset of the average soldier, then yes, it is relevant, particularly when it is stacked against so many contrary (and frankly, more credible) assessments. Why would you feel so threatened by that? I know Mr. M is simply trolling for trouble - so sue me if I make him work for it. That's odd, I only claimed that I heard more than one viewpoint when I was in. Some people apparently think that the military is like Rush Limbaugh's dittoheads, and only have one opinion. I even said that the viewpoints Moore was showing were a minority one, so where's your beef?
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

23rd December 2003, 12:46 AM	#70
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Quote: Originally posted by Jocko [b] So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far. By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel. But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions. Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available? Actually, it was a plate, 6 screws, 2 pins, and two staples. And, look, since you don't know how to read what I post, stop responding to it. When did I say that the opinions stated were the 'average soldier's'? Nowhere, especially since I was defending those opinions as a valid MINORITY viewpoint.
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

23rd December 2003, 12:48 AM	#71
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Anyhoo, I'm waiting for INTERESTING questions about my service, or I'd prefer to let the whole thing drop... You know, the stuff that interests the average Marine, like how much those 30-packs of Coors Extra Gold were on base, or which "dancer" was my favorite at Ft. Sill....($10.99, and Maggie with the 'million dollar a$$')
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

23rd December 2003, 02:36 AM	#72
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 26,840	Quote: Originally posted by Zero Anyhoo, I'm waiting for INTERESTING questions about my service, or I'd prefer to let the whole thing drop... You know, the stuff that interests the average Marine, like how much those 30-packs of Coors Extra Gold were on base, or which "dancer" was my favorite at Ft. Sill....($10.99, and Maggie with the 'million dollar a$$') That clinches it for me. You knew Jarheads get their artillery training at Ft. Sill. A poseur would have said Quantico or 29 Palms or something. Couple more tests to make absolutely sure though. Please define the first two and explain the third. Ogive Polaris-Cochab 101 or 119
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.

23rd December 2003, 02:46 AM	#73
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Quote: Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner That clinches it for me. You knew Jarheads get their artillery training at Ft. Sill. A poseur would have said Quantico or 29 Palms or something. Couple more tests to make absolutely sure though. Please define the first two and explain the third. Ogive Polaris-Cochab 101 or 119 Ummm....the first one I'm at a loss for, Polaris-Cochab is familiar, something about land nav, I think? Dude, I was FDC and Survey most of the time...and I learned the IFSAS by rote...so I could probably alt-A, alt N you though a fire mission, or lay some guns(with a T2-E, not an aiming circle, only the batteries used crappy old aiming circles), MP-HOB registrations maybe, but that's about it...mostly, I remember drilling in SEAD missions and trying to bracket targets... BTW, I was at Ft. Sill TWICE....jeez, that place sucks!!
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

23rd December 2003, 02:51 AM	#74
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535	Oh, and ummm...101 and 119 are howitzers? If they are, they must be 105mm howitzers, because we used 155mm exclusively. Darned Army has all sorts of neat stuff the Marines never get!!
Zero Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,535

23rd December 2003, 03:02 AM	#75
UnrepentantSinner A post by Alan Smithee Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 26,840	Quote: Originally posted by Zero Oh, and ummm...101 and 119 are howitzers? If they are, they must be 105mm howitzers, because we used 155mm exclusively. Darned Army has all sorts of neat stuff the Marines never get!! The must have fully fazed out the old M-101 105mm by the time you went through. They sucked for gunnery because the declination was only 3200 mils or something like that. They even had blast shields them. I trained on the 102 for my 105mm for gunnery. And they were just introducing the M-119 and Paladin and what would be come Cusader was still referred to as AFAS. On the obselencance side, the Guard unit I was going to was 8in. I sent about 20 of those down range during gunnery. I was supposed to do MLRS school, but never got the chance as I blew out my back during the last few weeks of OBC and was medically retired a few months after completing it and like 2 drills with my NG unit. FAOBC was cool though as I got experience in gunnery, Fire Support and Fire Direction. Ogive btw is where the fuse screws into the shell (technically to ogive ring) and Polaris-Kochab is a night time surveying method (again, probably obsolete in these days of GPS).
	__________________ I am an American citizen who is part of American society and briefly served in the American armed forces. I use American dollars and pay taxes that support the American government. And yes, despite the editorial decison to change American politics to the nonsensical "USA politics" subforum, I follow and comment on American politics.