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Tags Hawaii issues , police issues , police misconduct charges , prostitution issues

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Old 27th March 2014, 02:58 PM   #1
ravdin
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Hawaii Cops Allowed To Have Sex With Prostitutes Before Busting Them

More police absurdity, this time from the Hawaii 5-0 Vice Squad:

Quote:
Honolulu police officers have urged lawmakers to keep an exemption in state law that allows undercover officers to have sex with prostitutes during investigations, touching off a heated debate.

Authorities say they need the legal protection to catch lawbreakers in the act. Critics, including human trafficking experts and other police, say it's unnecessary and could further victimize sex workers, many of whom have been forced into the trade.
Let me see if I can explain the position of the Hawaii police: it's against department policy for undercover police to have sex with prostitutes. However, if they do it then they will do it responsibly. Therefore it's of the utmost importance that they are allowed to have sex with prostitutes so that they can put a stop to sex with prostitutes.

The exemption has recently been hotly debated in the HI legislature, where the House of Representatives upheld it due to pressure from the police. The HI Senate doesn't see it quite the same way, however. After intense, closed door sessions the police and the chair of the judiciary and labor committee have reached an agreement: should the bill pass there will be no more sex with prostitutes for the police.

Quote:
“There are other parts of the exemption that will remain and that includes sexual contact,” Sen. Hee said.
So don't worry, guys: you can still get a handjob before making the arrest!
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Old 27th March 2014, 03:11 PM   #2
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Hey ravdin, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Please have sex with this prostitute to confirm that you are not a cop. </drugpin>

This is probably not happening very often, but if police have an absolute rule that they can't, then it seems like an easy process of elimination for the criminals to follow. At least, that is probably the thinking of the police officers involved.
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Old 27th March 2014, 03:16 PM   #3
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If you ask an undercover cop if they're a cop, they have to answer truthfully, right?

I doubt this is about busting prostitutes. More likely it's about being able to maintain cover long enough to bust ringleaders. Still, a pretty awkward and unpleasant contingency to have to provide for.
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Old 27th March 2014, 03:31 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you ask an undercover cop if they're a cop, they have to answer truthfully, right?
I doubt this is about busting prostitutes. More likely it's about being able to maintain cover long enough to bust ringleaders. Still, a pretty awkward and unpleasant contingency to have to provide for.
Myth. Cops lie all the time.
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Old 27th March 2014, 03:32 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Myth. Cops lie all the time.
ThatsTheJoke.jpg

Except, of course, it won't be a joke if Hawaii lawmakers insist on giving human traffickers a litmus test for exposing undercover cops.

Maybe undercover investigation isn't the right solution for this kind of crime, but I don't think the issue is so simple, no the cops such horrible people, as the OP implies.

Last edited by theprestige; 27th March 2014 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 27th March 2014, 03:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by progressquest View Post
Hey ravdin, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Please have sex with this prostitute to confirm that you are not a cop. </drugpin>

This is probably not happening very often, but if police have an absolute rule that they can't, then it seems like an easy process of elimination for the criminals to follow. At least, that is probably the thinking of the police officers involved.
Wow, until now I was using "snort this!" to figure out who the undercover cops are. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try that next time!
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Old 27th March 2014, 06:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by progressquest View Post
Hey ravdin, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Please have sex with this prostitute to confirm that you are not a cop. </drugpin>
Hey progressquest, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Cops are allowed to have sex with prostitutes here, so please kill this one to confirm that you are not a cop. </drugpin>
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Old 27th March 2014, 06:41 PM   #8
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"Prove you're not a cop. Shave off your moustache".

Works every time.
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Old 27th March 2014, 06:43 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
More police absurdity, this time from the Hawaii 5-0 Vice Squad:



Let me see if I can explain the position of the Hawaii police: it's against department policy for undercover police to have sex with prostitutes. However, if they do it then they will do it responsibly. Therefore it's of the utmost importance that they are allowed to have sex with prostitutes so that they can put a stop to sex with prostitutes.

The exemption has recently been hotly debated in the HI legislature, where the House of Representatives upheld it due to pressure from the police. The HI Senate doesn't see it quite the same way, however. After intense, closed door sessions the police and the chair of the judiciary and labor committee have reached an agreement: should the bill pass there will be no more sex with prostitutes for the police.



So don't worry, guys: you can still get a handjob before making the arrest!
How do their wives feel about that?
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Old 27th March 2014, 07:43 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
How do their wives feel about that?
Thankful for the break?
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Old 27th March 2014, 07:44 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Hey progressquest, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Cops are allowed to have sex with prostitutes here, so please kill this one to confirm that you are not a cop. </drugpin>
Do you think it's reasonable to draw the line between sex and murder? If so, why? If not, why not?
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Old 27th March 2014, 08:17 PM   #12
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The clear solution here is to simply legalize prostitution. Problem solved.
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Old 27th March 2014, 08:21 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
The clear solution here is to simply legalize prostitution. Problem solved.
It makes no sense to me at all that it's legal to pay people to have sex with each other while you film them, but not legal to pay them to have sex with you.
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Old 27th March 2014, 08:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
It makes no sense to me at all that it's legal to pay people to have sex with each other while you film them, but not legal to pay them to have sex with you.
Clearly prostitution should be rebranded as "audience-participation pornography".

ETA: Though it's my understanding that what goes on in porn shoots bears as much resemblance to sex as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare bears to, well, modern warfare. So maybe it makes sense to criminalize the latter as a social harm, but permit the former as some form of artwork, or whatever.

Last edited by theprestige; 27th March 2014 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 27th March 2014, 08:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Clearly prostitution should be rebranded as "audience-participation pornography".

ETA: Though it's my understanding that what goes on in porn shoots bears as much resemblance to sex as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare bears to, well, modern warfare. So maybe it makes sense to criminalize the latter as a social harm, but permit the former as some form of artwork, or whatever.
If it's social harm then what's the point in allowing cops to further the harm? What does this allowance ostensibly help?
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Old 27th March 2014, 08:53 PM   #16
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What's the clear up rate for crime solved by these undercover shaggers?
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Old 27th March 2014, 08:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
If it's social harm then what's the point in allowing cops to further the harm? What does this allowance ostensibly help?
Then what's the point in having any undercover investigations at all?

Anyway, I was making a joke about unrealistic sexual positions in pornos, not advancing a serious policy proposal.

But if you're advancing a serious policy proposal, then please give a serious answer to my question.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 27th March 2014, 09:03 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then what's the point in having any undercover investigations at all?

Anyway, I was making a joke about unrealistic sexual positions in pornos, not advancing a serious policy proposal.

But if you're advancing a serious policy proposal, then please give a serious answer to my question.

Thanks in advance.
I have a very difficult time in seeing police work as "the ends justify the means." I see it as unjustifiable in any endeavor, actually. The laws need to be adjusted first before we grant free license to police to do the work of protecting us from ourselves.
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Old 27th March 2014, 09:04 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
What's the clear up rate for crime solved by these undercover shaggers?
Well, if they're not allowed to shag anymore, it'll be going down.
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Old 27th March 2014, 09:13 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
More police absurdity, this time from the Hawaii 5-0 Vice Squad:



Let me see if I can explain the position of the Hawaii police: it's against department policy for undercover police to have sex with prostitutes. However, if they do it then they will do it responsibly. Therefore it's of the utmost importance that they are allowed to have sex with prostitutes so that they can put a stop to sex with prostitutes.

The exemption has recently been hotly debated in the HI legislature, where the House of Representatives upheld it due to pressure from the police. The HI Senate doesn't see it quite the same way, however. After intense, closed door sessions the police and the chair of the judiciary and labor committee have reached an agreement: should the bill pass there will be no more sex with prostitutes for the police.



So don't worry, guys: you can still get a handjob before making the arrest!

I'm sure there is a point some where up there, but I don't know what it is.
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Old 27th March 2014, 09:17 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Well, if they're not allowed to shag anymore, it'll be going down.
I see what you did there.












And because I was only watching, it is perfectly legal.
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Old 27th March 2014, 09:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I see what you did there.












And because I was only watching, it is perfectly legal.
Hey Norseman, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you really interesting. Please come up to my room for a cup of coffee </drugpin>
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Old 27th March 2014, 10:00 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
Hey Norseman, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you really interesting. Please come up to my room for a cup of coffee </drugpin>
Right on! I don't drink coffee though. Any tea, by chance?
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Old 27th March 2014, 10:08 PM   #24
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Given that prostitutes are sometimes forced into the sex trade, is catching drug dealers worth police officers being complicit in and committing rape?
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Old 27th March 2014, 10:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
The clear solution here is to simply legalize prostitution. Problem solved.
Well, they did. For cops.
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Old 27th March 2014, 10:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Senor_Pointy View Post
Given that prostitutes are sometimes forced into the sex trade, is catching drug dealers worth police officers being complicit in and committing rape?
Good point, and it gives me an idea.

For every person an officer rescues from the sex slave trade, that officer has the option be paid to have sex with a legal prostitute of their choice.
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Old 27th March 2014, 10:43 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Clearly prostitution should be rebranded as "audience-participation pornography".

ETA: Though it's my understanding that what goes on in porn shoots bears as much resemblance to sex as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare bears to, well, modern warfare. So maybe it makes sense to criminalize the latter as a social harm, but permit the former as some form of artwork, or whatever.
Not to mention the often quite weird bloopers.
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Old 27th March 2014, 10:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you ask an undercover cop if they're a cop, they have to answer truthfully, right?

[...].
Where the ... who the ....

What the heck is wrong with you? Who raised you?
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Old 27th March 2014, 10:55 PM   #29
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NSFW, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv62bDzeWKQ (NSFW)
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Old 28th March 2014, 01:09 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
It makes no sense to me at all that it's legal to pay people to have sex with each other while you film them, but not legal to pay them to have sex with you.
So then couldn't you open up a "Star in your own porno film" business as a loophole?
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Old 28th March 2014, 01:48 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Clearly prostitution should be rebranded as "audience-participation pornography".
Originally Posted by Kahalachan View Post
So then couldn't you open up a "Star in your own porno film" business as a loophole?
There used to be a brothel in Prague that operated like that. "Clients" had to sign the local actor's union contract and the brothel videoed all the action.
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Old 28th March 2014, 01:58 AM   #32
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I have about ten years of criminal practise under my belt and by far the most disgusting, repellent, degenerate, downright bad clients were those involved in living off immoral earnings. Legalise prostitution or crush these bastards. If the Hawaii cops are doing a good job crushing then fine. If they are only treading water and pushing up the insurance premiums then what's the point. The principal victims i.e. the girls and women are not helped by that.
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Old 28th March 2014, 05:29 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by cited article
Skeptics, such as Roger Young, a retired special agent who for more than 20 years worked sex crimes for the FBI from Las Vegas and has trained vice squads around the country, remain unconvinced.

Young said Thursday, "I don't know of any state or federal law that allows any law enforcement officer undercover to penetrate or do what this law is allowing."
I am going to agree with the skeptical FBI agent.
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Old 28th March 2014, 02:15 PM   #34
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I thought this was going to be the best line of the thread:

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Clearly prostitution should be rebranded as "audience-participation pornography".
and then marplots raised the bar:

Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Well, they did. For cops.

Well done, both of you.
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Old 28th March 2014, 02:19 PM   #35
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I'm reminded of a certain South Park episode, where the detective poses as a prostitute to catch John's...
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Old 28th March 2014, 04:50 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I am going to agree with the skeptical FBI agent.
Well, I wouldn't call appeals to popularity and ignorance skeptical, but okay. At least citing a 20-year veteran of the Bureau isn't an appeal to false authority. So there's that.
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Old 28th March 2014, 04:53 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Where the ... who the ....

What the heck is wrong with you? Who raised you?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...34#post9922134
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Old 28th March 2014, 04:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, I wouldn't call appeals to popularity and ignorance skeptical, but okay. At least citing a 20-year veteran of the Bureau isn't an appeal to false authority. So there's that.
What's the advantage of allowing police to break the law with impunity in order to catch people who break the law?

And anglolawyer asked a very good question and I was wondering if you'd answer it. He asked, "[w]hat's the clear up rate for crime solved by these undercover shaggers?"
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Old 29th March 2014, 05:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Hey progressquest, I'm a major drug lord and don't want any cops doing the "undercover thing" in my inner circle. Cops are allowed to have sex with prostitutes here, so please kill this one to confirm that you are not a cop. </drugpin>
A new associate meets an illicit supplier of a product, as a gesture of trust and goodwill the supplier gives a free sample to the new associate. Refusal will elicit suspicion.

Sometimes the product is drugs, sometimes it's sex. Never is it murder. Think of the consequences of committing a murder, not from the point of view of society or of the victim, but from the point of view of the "drugpin".

Dead body on the floor that needs to be disposed of, witnesses that may be other girls working for him or other associates that suddenly realise they might be next, the stakes are massively increased and there is no gain, there's a loss. A freeby with a hooker or a quick snort of product is a negligible cost to the boss here. The death of a girl who is a source of income and is probably an investment already made (especially if they have been trafficked from another country) is not only a major risk, she's also a colossal waste of money. That's without even accounting for the fact that not all criminals, even hardened ones, ever engage in murder.

The headline in the topic is very misleading, and this appears to be deliberate. The topic header implies that the cops are allowed to have sex with a prostitute and then arrest her, getting a freebie and a bust at the same time. What the article suggests is that an officer engaging in unethical behaviour in the process of an investigation is permissible in this particular case.

Sex with a prostitute in the process of gathering evidence against that prostitute would very clearly be unethical. But sex once with a prostitute as part of an investigation that would ultimately free ten women from a lifetime of forced sex certainly changes the balance.

How I feel about it depends on how successful these operations are.
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Old 29th March 2014, 05:51 AM   #40
TheGoldcountry
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Thanks for a rational response, squealpiggy. That doesn't settle the issue, but it does give more perspective.
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