Seattle Police, Protecting & Serving

deadrose · 29th January 2015, 09:04 AM

Yesterday was not a great day to be the public face of Seattle PD.

First, this dashcam video from last summer was released

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An elderly black man was arrested & held overnight. The arresting officer said he was swinging his golf club at her and at signs. He was using it as a cane. Camera footage didn't back her up, but he was still out a cane, even after the sentencing was voided. Until yesterday the only outcome was that someone talked to her about it. Turns out she's one of the officers who tried to file a suit against the department, saying that the DOJ use-of-force agreement was restricting their ability to do their jobs, and has a history of posting racist screeds on Facebook.

More can be found here http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/arc...le-while-black

While the brass were figuring out how to respond to that, a video from last week's Martin Luther King, Jr. Day march was also put up on Youtube

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which appears to show a single officer losing her cool and hosing down everyone in the vicinity with pepper spray, including a high school teacher who had just stepped off the stage after a speech. He was talking on his phone with his wife when he was sprayed in the face for no visible reason. Nor did there appear to be any reason for the pepper spray to be used at all.

I almost feel sorry for the new Chief of Police at times like this.

3point14 · 29th January 2015, 09:08 AM

It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think.

They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duty of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this.

madurobob · 29th January 2015, 09:16 AM

I'd like to this opportunity to point out that in both these instances of extreme police stupidity, both officers were female.

theprestige · 29th January 2015, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think.

They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duto of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this.

Blah. It's much easier to snark, than to admit that police officers should accept no unnecessary risks, and then tackle the difficult problems of studying ideal and actual police procedures, and making an informed contribution to the debate over the best way to implement and train the best possible procedures.

I know it's easier, because I'm doing it too.

3point14 · 29th January 2015, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Blah. It's much easier to snark, than to admit that police officers should accept no unnecessary risks, and then tackle the difficult problems of studying ideal and actual police procedures, and making an informed contribution to the debate over the best way to implement and train the best possible procedures.

I know it's easier, because I'm doing it too.

The bolded is where the wriggle room is...

madurobob · 29th January 2015, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think.

They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duty of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this.

I don't know how tongue-in-cheek this is, but... yeah.

I think we can all sympathize with the perils of being a cop. In can be dangerous and situations can escalate to deadly levels quickly. But, in spite of society seeming to become less violent (violent crime rates are generally trending down), I get the impression that many LEOs are becoming more worried about their safety in their jobs.

I've heard a few interviews lately where the LEO talking expressed this fear. The latest being a story about a new smart phone app that lets drivers tag real time traffic conditions, and one of the things they can tag is a cop. The LEO being interviewed said it was a bad thing because people are "hunting cops" these days - referencing the murder of two NYPD officers several weeks ago. His organization was asking the app developer to remove this feature.

If you feel like you're being hunted, you're more inclined to strike first, removing the potential threat. But, why would cops feel more hunted now, when violent crime rates are dropping?

Gord_in_Toronto · 29th January 2015, 09:48 AM

Here in TO a police spokesman (he was a man) when asked, "How about you just don't hire racists," responded that one the things they were now doing was checking an applicant's on-line social site postings! ^*

Score a plus for the Internet?

=====
^*
I thought I saw this in the Toronto Star but can't seem to retrieve it now.

marplots · 29th January 2015, 10:35 AM

Is that the same chick in both videos?

Ranb · 29th January 2015, 11:08 AM

I live about 30 miles from Seattle and work in Bremerton which is just across Puget Sound. Going to Seattle or reading about it is like visiting another country at times.

Ranb

Upchurch · 29th January 2015, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

I think we can all sympathize with the perils of being a cop. In can be dangerous and situations can escalate to deadly levels quickly.

It's not as dangerous as you'd think. It's not even in the top ten most dangerous professions.

Source data (PDF warning)

madurobob · 29th January 2015, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

It's not as dangerous as you'd think. It's not even in the top ten most dangerous professions.

I don't doubt it. But, the perception is there. At our team lunchbreak today I asked who would, for the same pay, be a cop and why or why not. Six of the nine said no, and cited fears of 1:1 confrontations with dangerous criminals.

Of course, we're talking SW programmers here, so there is that. But, I doubt this is a point of view unique to white collar workers.

Dr. Keith · 29th January 2015, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

I don't doubt it. But, the perception is there. At our team lunchbreak today I asked who would, for the same pay, be a cop and why or why not. Six of the nine said no, and cited fears of 1:1 confrontations with dangerous criminals.

Of course, we're talking SW programmers here, so there is that. But, I doubt this is a point of view unique to white collar workers.

No offense, but I think you would get the same response if you asked them if they would take the same pay to be a lifeguard.

madurobob · 29th January 2015, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

No offense, but I think you would get the same response if you asked them if they would take the same pay to be a lifeguard.

I, for one, would take a small pay cut to be a full time lifeguard.

3point14 · 29th January 2015, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

I don't know how tongue-in-cheek this is, but... yeah.

It's moderately tongue in cheek but, I think, a decent piece of speculation.

All of the fatal police involved incidents in the USA, good shoots and otherwise, make perfect sense if the object of the exercise is to protect the officer from harm above all other considerations.

deadrose · 29th January 2015, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by marplots

Is that the same chick in both videos?

I'm inclined to think not, the second officer seems to be shorter & smaller than Ms. Whitlatch.

Dr. Keith · 29th January 2015, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by madurobob

I, for one, would take a small pay cut to be a full time lifeguard.

Are you a software programmer?

madurobob · 29th January 2015, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Are you a software programmer?

Worse than that, I am manager of same. Even more qualified to be a lifeguard!

plague311 · 29th January 2015, 05:14 PM

Wasn't there a video out not too long ago of a Seattle (male) cop punching a woman in the face multiple times as well?

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There it is. It wasn't multiple times, and she had it coming so it's not really that bad. I was wrong.

Cl1mh4224rd · 29th January 2015, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think.

They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duty of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this.

They can't protect others if they can't protect themselves.

I wrote the above with some snark, but I also think it's not unreasonable. Unfortunately, it seems that a number of officers seem to think that harming innocent people is an acceptable means to that end.

shemp · 29th January 2015, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by madurobob

I, for one, would take a small pay cut to be a full time lifeguard.

Hey was this you?

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WildCat · 29th January 2015, 08:53 PM

More embarrassing video for Seattle:

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The Central Scrutinizer · 29th January 2015, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by deadrose

While the brass were figuring out how to respond to that, a video from last week's Martin Luther King, Jr. Day march was also put up on Youtube

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

which appears to show a single officer losing her cool and hosing down everyone in the vicinity with pepper spray, including a high school teacher who had just stepped off the stage after a speech. He was talking on his phone with his wife when he was sprayed in the face for no visible reason. Nor did there appear to be any reason for the pepper spray to be used at all.

It's funny how these YouTube videos never seem to show what led up to an incident. I wonder why?

sadhatter · 29th January 2015, 10:53 PM

Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit.

The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem.

People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon.

The Don · 30th January 2015, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit.

The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem.

People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon.

The legal implications of challenging a surgeon are also probably less profound IMO.

3point14 · 30th January 2015, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit.

The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem.

People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon.

Are you saying that because the majority of policemen behave well then those that don't should get a pass from criticism?

Skeptic Tank · 30th January 2015, 02:04 AM

I'm sorry but I think it's absolutely laughable to have 5 foot tall female police officers.

Part of the job is being able to engage physically with suspects, most of whom are male.

No serious police force should be fielding overweight males or females full stop, IMO.

Are there a few females out there who can do the job physically and otherwise? Yea. There are always exceptions to any rule. The problem is that once you abandon the sensible "police officers out on the street must be male" rule we used to have, you will never successfully keep it restricted to only those few females who can actually meet the requirements. Once that door is opened, inevitably it allows for (and will result in) people saying "why aren't there more female officers? You have to work to get these numbers up!" and then the standards are relaxed, and relaxed, and relaxed.

Consider me sexist all you want, I don't think there should be female soldiers, police, or firefighters. I just think that reflects the biological realities of our species.

3point14 · 30th January 2015, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank

I'm sorry but I think it's absolutely laughable to have 5 foot tall female police officers.

Part of the job is being able to engage physically with suspects, most of whom are male.

No serious police force should be fielding overweight males or females full stop, IMO.

Are there a few females out there who can do the job physically and otherwise? Yea. There are always exceptions to any rule. The problem is that once you abandon the sensible "police officers out on the street must be male" rule we used to have, you will never successfully keep it restricted to only those few females who can actually meet the requirements. Once that door is opened, inevitably it allows for (and will result in) people saying "why aren't there more female officers? You have to work to get these numbers up!" and then the standards are relaxed, and relaxed, and relaxed.

Consider me sexist all you want, I don't think there should be female soldiers, police, or firefighters. I just think that reflects the biological realities of our species.

I would disagree. I could understand an argument that said "These are the tests, if you can pass them you can apply" and let those that can pass, regardless of gender, go on and apply for police/fire etc. and there being no 'lesser' tests for ladies. I don't see how you could deny them access to those jobs based solely on gender (rather than ability) and not be considered deeply sexist.

Toontown · 30th January 2015, 05:18 AM

Another bad cop thread? Seriously? And this is all you could come up with?

Bad cop pickings must be a mite slim at the moment. Perhaps if you waited a few days...who knows. Some cop somewhere might do something really bad. I mean, it's bound to happen sooner or later. Have some patience.

BTW, aren't there any bad European cops? I want to read about some bad European cops. But not Russians. It's a given that they're all bad.

Modified · 30th January 2015, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit.

The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem.

People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon.

In many jobs bad employees are kept on for whatever reason, though usually this is a mistake (generally, the error is an implicit goal of having many underpaid unproductive workers instead of fewer well-paid productive ones, but that is a topic for another thread). For police that shouldn't happen, especially for those who just have the wrong temperament. My parents once witnessed a cop in a Seattle park calm down a ranting homeless woman who threatened and shouted obscenities at him for several minutes (they didn't see what she did to attract his attention initially). He remained calm and friendly the whole time. That cop should be given a raise or promoted, the ones who would just taze or pepper spray the woman and take her in should be demoted or fired.

Modified · 30th January 2015, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

I would disagree. I could understand an argument that said "These are the tests, if you can pass them you can apply" and let those that can pass, regardless of gender, go on and apply for police/fire etc. and there being no 'lesser' tests for ladies. I don't see how you could deny them access to those jobs based solely on gender (rather than ability) and not be considered deeply sexist.

Some police departments have height requirements for men that would eliminate 99% of women from consideration if applied equally.

casebro · 30th January 2015, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

Worse than that, I am manager of same. Even more qualified to be a lifeguard!

Oh. Experience as a baby sitter then. Ought to be a good thing for cops.

casebro · 30th January 2015, 07:01 AM

A few years ago I read that women cops are hugely better at quieting down domestic disputes, which are the most common events for violence.

Hmm, somebody must have some figures for rates of brutality complaints by sex of cop.

casebro · 30th January 2015, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Modified

In many jobs bad employees are kept on for whatever reason, though usually this is a mistake (generally, the error is an implicit goal of having many underpaid unproductive workers instead of fewer well-paid productive ones, but that is a topic for another thread). For police that shouldn't happen, especially for those who just have the wrong temperament. My parents once witnessed a cop in a Seattle park calm down a ranting homeless woman who threatened and shouted obscenities at him for several minutes (they didn't see what she did to attract his attention initially). He remained calm and friendly the whole time. That cop should be given a raise or promoted, the ones who would just taze or pepper spray the woman and take her in should be demoted or fired.

I think we should draft cops. Because anybody that wants to be one probably has reason not to be permitted to be one.

epepke · 30th January 2015, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

I think we should draft cops. Because anybody that wants to be one probably has reason not to be permitted to be one.

Maybe this sound snarky to some, but it's actually not a ridiculous idea. We draft jurors, after all. Some countries seem to work fine with a period of mandatory service for everybody when young, and it would provide a way of learning some skills and making some money for a lot of poor people. Trouble is that it's nearly always military service, which makes people think in terms of enemies and killing them.

This would have the auxiliary benefit of training people in firearms use and conflict resolution, which would probably reduce crime. There would probably still have to be career detectives and SWAT teams, but most citizens, properly trained, would be just fine for community policing.

It'll never happen, though, because the purpose of the entrenched police system is not to reduce crime or catch criminals or make the streets safer or protect citizens or anything like that. It's to bully people and generate a permanent underclass. So the last thing that they would want to do is allow the little people or townies to participate. The rules of copdom are as follows:

1) Everyone is guilty of everything all the time, except

a) Cops are never guilty of anything at any time, and

b) Auxiliary professionals, such as nurses, physicians, EMTs, or even barroom owners who hire off-duty cops etc. are never guilty of anything while on duty but are guilty of everything while off duty.

The purpose of a cop is to get 'em, and it doesn't matter much who they are. It is occasionally embarrassing when a cop harasses or beats up an off-duty cop, but that happens seldom. Black people are good for harassing and beating up, not necessarily because of particular racism (though racism is often present), but because you can see that they are black at a distance, and so a cop can tell that they are relatively safe to harass and beat up without repercussions. It was probably much more difficult to be a cop in the old days before the black diaspora after World War II, when a lot of Southern black people were helped by military service and got to live away from the plantation.

The diaspora never really got to the Pacific Northwest, though, unfortunately for cops. There's a shortage of black people in general, let along black people so poor that they cannot afford a good attorney. This has unfortunately also caused some of the very white people who live there to put questions of race out of their minds and others to ascribe to white supremacist ideas much stronger than anything that remains as a significant force in the South.

An old guy walking around with a cane seems like a safe target, because if he had money, he probably would be taking a cab or something. Who's going to care? At worst there will be some demonstrations. Preferably some riots, as it makes black people safer as targets for cop brutality, which is of course why so many on-duty cops have been caught inciting riots and even setting fires. More crime is better for cops; it gives them something to do.

3point14 · 30th January 2015, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

I think we should draft cops. Because anybody that wants to be one probably has reason not to be permitted to be one.

This. So many times this.

Policemen and politicians. Anyone who acutqally wants the job should, on no account, be allowed to have it.

luchog · 30th January 2015, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Policemen and politicians. Anyone who acutqally wants the job should, on no account, be allowed to have it.

I'd disagree with that. There is a certain mindset necessary for these jobs (and for politicians, a certain level of drug and alcohol abuse). The problem is that the type of person attracted to police work can seem like the type of person suited to it, at least at first, without a in-depth evaluation that is rarely ever done. Better screening of police would certainly be a good step to changing police culture.

One of the biggest problems with changing police culture is changing the factors that drive it. Institutionalized racism and classism, irrationality and superstition, excessive risk-aversion, and the bunker mentality. All of these things are endemic in American culture (and to a lesser extent, other European and Anglosphere cultures); so given the stresses of the job, it's no coincidence that they often come to the fore in police work.

The other problem is the glorification of police by certain segments of the culture (part of the "law and order" culture); and the rush to dismiss incidents of abuse of power as statistically insignificant anomalies, when in fact they are a widespread systemic problem manifesting in many forms, ranging from the common and petty, to the rare and lethal. It's this mentality more than anything else that has stymied or weakened efforts to enact reforms and improve accountability.

bluesjnr · 30th January 2015, 09:04 AM

All cops, all over the globe will use any tactic possible to put you at odds with the law, irrespective of how you come to be interacting with them. You should avoid contact even if your life is in imminent danger. More so if they armed.

Unfortunately they are the least trustworthy individuals of any occupation, in any society, on the planet.

At least you know a robbers gonna rob you and a guy with a knife is gonna stab you. With a cop you only know he/she's going to put you at odds with the law but you don't know what the repercussion will be when they succeed.

Craig4 · 30th January 2015, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

It's funny how these YouTube videos never seem to show what led up to an incident. I wonder why?

She's really got a couple of problems here regardless of what lead up to this. The first rule of crowd control is self control. She's has clearly lost her command presence. Here tone is closer to a petulant child than an officer commissioned to uphold the law. I'd be curious to know if she asked people to give them some space before she started yelling.

The device she used was not appropriate for the circumstances. The "party can" of mace as we liked to call it is not useful when there are casual bystanders. The guy on the phone is not threatening and should not have been sprayed. I don't know what the rest of the crowd was doing but she has an obligation to no spray people who aren't a threat. There are smaller units that shoot a tight stream at an individual that would have been more appropriate.

CORed · 30th January 2015, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by madurobob

I, for one, would take a small pay cut to be a full time lifeguard.

Me too, assuming of course, that all the bikini-clad women I encounter are as hot as they were on Baywatch.

madurobob · 30th January 2015, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by CORed

Me too, assuming of course, that all the bikini-clad women I encounter are as hot as they were on Baywatch.

Meh, I wouldn't mind if it were a nude beach at a retirement home. Its still the beach and I'm spending most of my time lounging and watching the water and may occasionally pouring hot water on sting ray stings.

29th January 2015, 09:08 AM	#2
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think. They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duty of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] Last edited by 3point14; 29th January 2015 at 09:30 AM.

29th January 2015, 09:16 AM	#3
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven Posts: 7,401	I'd like to this opportunity to point out that in both these instances of extreme police stupidity, both officers were female.
	__________________ I love you and I vote.

29th January 2015, 09:37 AM	#5
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	Originally Posted by theprestige Blah. It's much easier to snark, than to admit that police officers should accept no unnecessary risks, and then tackle the difficult problems of studying ideal and actual police procedures, and making an informed contribution to the debate over the best way to implement and train the best possible procedures. I know it's easier, because I'm doing it too. The bolded is where the wriggle room is...
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

29th January 2015, 09:42 AM	#6
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven Posts: 7,401	Originally Posted by 3point14 It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think. They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duty of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this. I don't know how tongue-in-cheek this is, but... yeah. I think we can all sympathize with the perils of being a cop. In can be dangerous and situations can escalate to deadly levels quickly. But, in spite of society seeming to become less violent (violent crime rates are generally trending down), I get the impression that many LEOs are becoming more worried about their safety in their jobs. I've heard a few interviews lately where the LEO talking expressed this fear. The latest being a story about a new smart phone app that lets drivers tag real time traffic conditions, and one of the things they can tag is a cop. The LEO being interviewed said it was a bad thing because people are "hunting cops" these days - referencing the murder of two NYPD officers several weeks ago. His organization was asking the app developer to remove this feature. If you feel like you're being hunted, you're more inclined to strike first, removing the potential threat. But, why would cops feel more hunted now, when violent crime rates are dropping?
	__________________ I love you and I vote.

29th January 2015, 09:48 AM	#7
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,448	Here in TO a police spokesman (he was a man) when asked, "How about you just don't hire racists," responded that one the things they were now doing was checking an applicant's on-line social site postings! ^* Score a plus for the Internet? ===== ^* I thought I saw this in the Toronto Star but can't seem to retrieve it now.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

29th January 2015, 09:32 AM	#4
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,693	Originally Posted by 3point14 It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think. They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duto of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this. Blah. It's much easier to snark, than to admit that police officers should accept no unnecessary risks, and then tackle the difficult problems of studying ideal and actual police procedures, and making an informed contribution to the debate over the best way to implement and train the best possible procedures. I know it's easier, because I'm doing it too.

29th January 2015, 10:35 AM	#8
marplots Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 29,167	Is that the same chick in both videos?

29th January 2015, 11:08 AM	#9
Ranb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 10,263	I live about 30 miles from Seattle and work in Bremerton which is just across Puget Sound. Going to Seattle or reading about it is like visiting another country at times. Ranb

29th January 2015, 11:13 AM	#10
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,384	Originally Posted by madurobob I think we can all sympathize with the perils of being a cop. In can be dangerous and situations can escalate to deadly levels quickly. It's not as dangerous as you'd think. It's not even in the top ten most dangerous professions. Source data (PDF warning)
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

29th January 2015, 11:19 AM	#11
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven Posts: 7,401	Originally Posted by Upchurch It's not as dangerous as you'd think. It's not even in the top ten most dangerous professions. I don't doubt it. But, the perception is there. At our team lunchbreak today I asked who would, for the same pay, be a cop and why or why not. Six of the nine said no, and cited fears of 1:1 confrontations with dangerous criminals. Of course, we're talking SW programmers here, so there is that. But, I doubt this is a point of view unique to white collar workers.
	__________________ I love you and I vote.

29th January 2015, 11:33 AM	#12
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,581	Originally Posted by madurobob I don't doubt it. But, the perception is there. At our team lunchbreak today I asked who would, for the same pay, be a cop and why or why not. Six of the nine said no, and cited fears of 1:1 confrontations with dangerous criminals. Of course, we're talking SW programmers here, so there is that. But, I doubt this is a point of view unique to white collar workers. No offense, but I think you would get the same response if you asked them if they would take the same pay to be a lifeguard.

29th January 2015, 11:41 AM	#13
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven Posts: 7,401	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith No offense, but I think you would get the same response if you asked them if they would take the same pay to be a lifeguard. I, for one, would take a small pay cut to be a full time lifeguard.
	__________________ I love you and I vote.

29th January 2015, 11:50 AM	#14
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	Originally Posted by madurobob I don't know how tongue-in-cheek this is, but... yeah. It's moderately tongue in cheek but, I think, a decent piece of speculation. All of the fatal police involved incidents in the USA, good shoots and otherwise, make perfect sense if the object of the exercise is to protect the officer from harm above all other considerations.
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29th January 2015, 01:51 PM	#15
deadrose Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the wet side of the mountains Posts: 3,559	Originally Posted by marplots Is that the same chick in both videos? I'm inclined to think not, the second officer seems to be shorter & smaller than Ms. Whitlatch.

29th January 2015, 01:57 PM	#16
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,581	Originally Posted by madurobob I, for one, would take a small pay cut to be a full time lifeguard. Are you a software programmer?

29th January 2015, 02:06 PM	#17
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven Posts: 7,401	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith Are you a software programmer? Worse than that, I am manager of same. Even more qualified to be a lifeguard!
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29th January 2015, 08:20 PM	#19
Cl1mh4224rd Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by 3point14 It's taken me a while but I now have a handle on how these thing happen. I think. They all make absolute sense if one considers that the first duty of a LEO is to come to no harm. The safety of the officer is paramount and all other considerations fall far behind this. They can't protect others if they can't protect themselves. I wrote the above with some snark, but I also think it's not unreasonable. Unfortunately, it seems that a number of officers seem to think that harming innocent people is an acceptable means to that end.
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29th January 2015, 10:53 PM	#23
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 8,694	Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit. The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem. People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon.
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30th January 2015, 12:48 AM	#24
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,368	Originally Posted by sadhatter Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit. The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem. People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon. The legal implications of challenging a surgeon are also probably less profound IMO.

30th January 2015, 01:22 AM	#25
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	Originally Posted by sadhatter Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit. The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem. People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon. Are you saying that because the majority of policemen behave well then those that don't should get a pass from criticism?
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30th January 2015, 02:04 AM	#26
Skeptic Tank Trigger Warning Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 2,985	I'm sorry but I think it's absolutely laughable to have 5 foot tall female police officers. Part of the job is being able to engage physically with suspects, most of whom are male. No serious police force should be fielding overweight males or females full stop, IMO. Are there a few females out there who can do the job physically and otherwise? Yea. There are always exceptions to any rule. The problem is that once you abandon the sensible "police officers out on the street must be male" rule we used to have, you will never successfully keep it restricted to only those few females who can actually meet the requirements. Once that door is opened, inevitably it allows for (and will result in) people saying "why aren't there more female officers? You have to work to get these numbers up!" and then the standards are relaxed, and relaxed, and relaxed. Consider me sexist all you want, I don't think there should be female soldiers, police, or firefighters. I just think that reflects the biological realities of our species.
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30th January 2015, 04:15 AM	#27
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank I'm sorry but I think it's absolutely laughable to have 5 foot tall female police officers. Part of the job is being able to engage physically with suspects, most of whom are male. No serious police force should be fielding overweight males or females full stop, IMO. Are there a few females out there who can do the job physically and otherwise? Yea. There are always exceptions to any rule. The problem is that once you abandon the sensible "police officers out on the street must be male" rule we used to have, you will never successfully keep it restricted to only those few females who can actually meet the requirements. Once that door is opened, inevitably it allows for (and will result in) people saying "why aren't there more female officers? You have to work to get these numbers up!" and then the standards are relaxed, and relaxed, and relaxed. Consider me sexist all you want, I don't think there should be female soldiers, police, or firefighters. I just think that reflects the biological realities of our species. I would disagree. I could understand an argument that said "These are the tests, if you can pass them you can apply" and let those that can pass, regardless of gender, go on and apply for police/fire etc. and there being no 'lesser' tests for ladies. I don't see how you could deny them access to those jobs based solely on gender (rather than ability) and not be considered deeply sexist.
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30th January 2015, 05:18 AM	#28
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	Another bad cop thread? Seriously? And this is all you could come up with? Bad cop pickings must be a mite slim at the moment. Perhaps if you waited a few days...who knows. Some cop somewhere might do something really bad. I mean, it's bound to happen sooner or later. Have some patience. BTW, aren't there any bad European cops? I want to read about some bad European cops. But not Russians. It's a given that they're all bad.
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	__________________ "I did not say that!" - Donald Trump Last edited by Toontown; 30th January 2015 at 05:21 AM.

30th January 2015, 06:53 AM	#29
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,892	Originally Posted by sadhatter Let's assume every single cop does a crappy thing thread is perfectly legit. The number of officers who do their job well and without incident would fill an entire forum worth of threads if people were inclined to talk about police success as much as failure. But as is human nature we are trying to paint this as a police problem, when it is simply a human problem. People in all jobs can and do suck at them, cops simply have greater media presence, and it is easier for a layman to pass judgment on them versus, a surgeon. In many jobs bad employees are kept on for whatever reason, though usually this is a mistake (generally, the error is an implicit goal of having many underpaid unproductive workers instead of fewer well-paid productive ones, but that is a topic for another thread). For police that shouldn't happen, especially for those who just have the wrong temperament. My parents once witnessed a cop in a Seattle park calm down a ranting homeless woman who threatened and shouted obscenities at him for several minutes (they didn't see what she did to attract his attention initially). He remained calm and friendly the whole time. That cop should be given a raise or promoted, the ones who would just taze or pepper spray the woman and take her in should be demoted or fired.
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,892

30th January 2015, 06:55 AM	#30
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,892	Originally Posted by 3point14 I would disagree. I could understand an argument that said "These are the tests, if you can pass them you can apply" and let those that can pass, regardless of gender, go on and apply for police/fire etc. and there being no 'lesser' tests for ladies. I don't see how you could deny them access to those jobs based solely on gender (rather than ability) and not be considered deeply sexist. Some police departments have height requirements for men that would eliminate 99% of women from consideration if applied equally.
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,892

30th January 2015, 06:57 AM	#31
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,657	Originally Posted by madurobob Worse than that, I am manager of same. Even more qualified to be a lifeguard! Oh. Experience as a baby sitter then. Ought to be a good thing for cops.
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30th January 2015, 07:01 AM	#32
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,657	A few years ago I read that women cops are hugely better at quieting down domestic disputes, which are the most common events for violence. Hmm, somebody must have some figures for rates of brutality complaints by sex of cop.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

30th January 2015, 07:05 AM	#33
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,657	Originally Posted by Modified In many jobs bad employees are kept on for whatever reason, though usually this is a mistake (generally, the error is an implicit goal of having many underpaid unproductive workers instead of fewer well-paid productive ones, but that is a topic for another thread). For police that shouldn't happen, especially for those who just have the wrong temperament. My parents once witnessed a cop in a Seattle park calm down a ranting homeless woman who threatened and shouted obscenities at him for several minutes (they didn't see what she did to attract his attention initially). He remained calm and friendly the whole time. That cop should be given a raise or promoted, the ones who would just taze or pepper spray the woman and take her in should be demoted or fired. I think we should draft cops. Because anybody that wants to be one probably has reason not to be permitted to be one.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

30th January 2015, 07:37 AM	#34
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 9,264	Originally Posted by casebro I think we should draft cops. Because anybody that wants to be one probably has reason not to be permitted to be one. Maybe this sound snarky to some, but it's actually not a ridiculous idea. We draft jurors, after all. Some countries seem to work fine with a period of mandatory service for everybody when young, and it would provide a way of learning some skills and making some money for a lot of poor people. Trouble is that it's nearly always military service, which makes people think in terms of enemies and killing them. This would have the auxiliary benefit of training people in firearms use and conflict resolution, which would probably reduce crime. There would probably still have to be career detectives and SWAT teams, but most citizens, properly trained, would be just fine for community policing. It'll never happen, though, because the purpose of the entrenched police system is not to reduce crime or catch criminals or make the streets safer or protect citizens or anything like that. It's to bully people and generate a permanent underclass. So the last thing that they would want to do is allow the little people or townies to participate. The rules of copdom are as follows: 1) Everyone is guilty of everything all the time, except a) Cops are never guilty of anything at any time, and b) Auxiliary professionals, such as nurses, physicians, EMTs, or even barroom owners who hire off-duty cops etc. are never guilty of anything while on duty but are guilty of everything while off duty. The purpose of a cop is to get 'em, and it doesn't matter much who they are. It is occasionally embarrassing when a cop harasses or beats up an off-duty cop, but that happens seldom. Black people are good for harassing and beating up, not necessarily because of particular racism (though racism is often present), but because you can see that they are black at a distance, and so a cop can tell that they are relatively safe to harass and beat up without repercussions. It was probably much more difficult to be a cop in the old days before the black diaspora after World War II, when a lot of Southern black people were helped by military service and got to live away from the plantation. The diaspora never really got to the Pacific Northwest, though, unfortunately for cops. There's a shortage of black people in general, let along black people so poor that they cannot afford a good attorney. This has unfortunately also caused some of the very white people who live there to put questions of race out of their minds and others to ascribe to white supremacist ideas much stronger than anything that remains as a significant force in the South. An old guy walking around with a cane seems like a safe target, because if he had money, he probably would be taking a cab or something. Who's going to care? At worst there will be some demonstrations. Preferably some riots, as it makes black people safer as targets for cop brutality, which is of course why so many on-duty cops have been caught inciting riots and even setting fires. More crime is better for cops; it gives them something to do.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 9,264	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

30th January 2015, 08:08 AM	#35
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,616	Originally Posted by casebro I think we should draft cops. Because anybody that wants to be one probably has reason not to be permitted to be one. This. So many times this. Policemen and politicians. Anyone who acutqally wants the job should, on no account, be allowed to have it.
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30th January 2015, 08:48 AM	#36
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 16,201	Originally Posted by 3point14 Policemen and politicians. Anyone who acutqally wants the job should, on no account, be allowed to have it. I'd disagree with that. There is a certain mindset necessary for these jobs (and for politicians, a certain level of drug and alcohol abuse). The problem is that the type of person attracted to police work can seem like the type of person suited to it, at least at first, without a in-depth evaluation that is rarely ever done. Better screening of police would certainly be a good step to changing police culture. One of the biggest problems with changing police culture is changing the factors that drive it. Institutionalized racism and classism, irrationality and superstition, excessive risk-aversion, and the bunker mentality. All of these things are endemic in American culture (and to a lesser extent, other European and Anglosphere cultures); so given the stresses of the job, it's no coincidence that they often come to the fore in police work. The other problem is the glorification of police by certain segments of the culture (part of the "law and order" culture); and the rush to dismiss incidents of abuse of power as statistically insignificant anomalies, when in fact they are a widespread systemic problem manifesting in many forms, ranging from the common and petty, to the rare and lethal. It's this mentality more than anything else that has stymied or weakened efforts to enact reforms and improve accountability.
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30th January 2015, 09:04 AM	#37
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 8,477	All cops, all over the globe will use any tactic possible to put you at odds with the law, irrespective of how you come to be interacting with them. You should avoid contact even if your life is in imminent danger. More so if they armed. Unfortunately they are the least trustworthy individuals of any occupation, in any society, on the planet. At least you know a robbers gonna rob you and a guy with a knife is gonna stab you. With a cop you only know he/she's going to put you at odds with the law but you don't know what the repercussion will be when they succeed.
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30th January 2015, 09:37 AM	#38
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,599	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer It's funny how these YouTube videos never seem to show what led up to an incident. I wonder why? She's really got a couple of problems here regardless of what lead up to this. The first rule of crowd control is self control. She's has clearly lost her command presence. Here tone is closer to a petulant child than an officer commissioned to uphold the law. I'd be curious to know if she asked people to give them some space before she started yelling. The device she used was not appropriate for the circumstances. The "party can" of mace as we liked to call it is not useful when there are casual bystanders. The guy on the phone is not threatening and should not have been sprayed. I don't know what the rest of the crowd was doing but she has an obligation to no spray people who aren't a threat. There are smaller units that shoot a tight stream at an individual that would have been more appropriate.

30th January 2015, 09:51 AM	#39
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,113	Originally Posted by madurobob I, for one, would take a small pay cut to be a full time lifeguard. Me too, assuming of course, that all the bikini-clad women I encounter are as hot as they were on Baywatch.

30th January 2015, 09:57 AM	#40
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven Posts: 7,401	Originally Posted by CORed Me too, assuming of course, that all the bikini-clad women I encounter are as hot as they were on Baywatch. Meh, I wouldn't mind if it were a nude beach at a retirement home. Its still the beach and I'm spending most of my time lounging and watching the water and may occasionally pouring hot water on sting ray stings.
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