Democracy is in trouble....

dudalb · 10th July 2019, 11:20 AM

Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future.
ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .

Hellbound · 10th July 2019, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future.
ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .

I don't think it's specifically right wing populism, just happens to be at this time. It's the same weakness democracy has always had, and that most systems have tried to put measures in to control: mob mentality.

dudalb · 10th July 2019, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Hellbound

I don't think it's specifically right wing populism, just happens to be at this time. It's the same weakness democracy has always had, and that most systems have tried to put measures in to control: mob mentality.

And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO.
First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory.
But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist".
I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him.

theprestige · 10th July 2019, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future.
ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .

What do you anticipate he will do to get rid of the democratic processes that form the basis of the British system of government?

Is he going to cancel elections?

applecorped · 10th July 2019, 11:48 AM

Democracy is in trouble!!!!.... Part 372

Belz... · 10th July 2019, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Is he going to cancel elections?

Gerrymandering is close enough, don't you think?

The Great Zaganza · 10th July 2019, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by applecorped

Democracy is in trouble!!!!.... Part 372

Democracy is always in trouble.

More so when people don't see the need to defend it.

Venom · 10th July 2019, 12:08 PM

I share your pet CT that Putin might be trying to do this. But is he successful so far? Probably not very, though I don't think we can ignore the powerful influence of RT and Sputnik on the narratives of world events.

And yeah it's populism in general he seems to want....

for any country but his own of course.

The drawbacks of representative democracy were always there though.

BrooklynBaby · 10th July 2019, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO.
First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory.
But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist".
I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him.

Well, where is your evidence? I think it is nonsense. The left is just moving farther to the left. It's that simple. Most think that fascism is right and communism is left, but there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between Hitler and Stalin, so there you go.

Vixen · 10th July 2019, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby

Well, where is your evidence? I think it is nonsense. The left is just moving farther to the left. It's that simple. Most think that fascism is right and communism is left, but there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between Hitler and Stalin, so there you go.

Evidence right here:

'The parting on the left, is now the parting on the right'. - Who

Hellbound · 10th July 2019, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO.
First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory.
But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist".
I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him.

Human nature. Even a non-violent person feels and urge to push back when they get shoved.

Tribalism reigns.

cullennz · 10th July 2019, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future.
ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .

Johnson is a populist pompous idiot, but he is no Trump.

jimbob · 10th July 2019, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Johnson is a populist pompous idiot, but he is no Trump.

He's closer than your thinking.

Unlike Trump, he isn't actually an idiot, just utterly amoral.

The Great Zaganza · 10th July 2019, 01:29 PM

... and very much in love with himself.

JoeMorgue · 10th July 2019, 01:37 PM

It's not a crazy idea that other populist are looking at the Trump phenomenon in the US and thinking it's worth a try to replicate it.

"Trump is gonna have political imitators" shouldn't shock anybody.

Hellbound · 10th July 2019, 01:39 PM

I'm reminded of my favorite line form the original "Men in Black" movie (that I think illustrates the weakness of Democracy):

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

mgidm86 · 10th July 2019, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future.
ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .

Or maybe it's left wing lunacy that is driving everyone else to the breaking point? Can only speak for myself but that is a big part of it for me.

cullennz · 10th July 2019, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

It's not a crazy idea that other populist are looking at the Trump phenomenon in the US and thinking it's worth a try to replicate it.

"Trump is gonna have political imitators" shouldn't shock anybody.

Johnson was around in politics doing his brand of "thing" long before Trump.

Captain_Swoop · 10th July 2019, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

What do you anticipate he will do to get rid of the democratic processes that form the basis of the British system of government?

Is he going to cancel elections?

Boris will do that for him. 'Greater Good'

Captain_Swoop · 10th July 2019, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Or maybe it's left wing lunacy that is driving everyone else to the breaking point? Can only speak for myself but that is a big part of it for me.

hahaha.

As the right go further to the right of course you think the left are getting more extreme.

jimbob · 10th July 2019, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Johnson is a populist pompous idiot, but he is no Trump.

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Or maybe it's left wing lunacy that is driving everyone else to the breaking point? Can only speak for myself but that is a big part of it for me.

It's just you.

Trump is highly abnormal and right wing. He is a compulsive liar, and unlike other politicians who might lie sometimes, he will lie about inconsequential things that can easily be proven wrong.

Anthropogenic climate change is real and accepted by the overwhelming majority of climate scientists.

Putin did interfere in US and European elections and the Brexit referendum. He wasn't supporting Clinton.

Women's reproductive rights are under attack in many US states, and not by the Left.

But maybe you have some specific examples of the left wing causing similar levels of damage.

ETA: If you look at dudalb's posting record, he *really* isn't left wing, nor does he identify as such. One can be right of centre and against racism and bigotry.

angrysoba · 10th July 2019, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future.
ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .

Johnson has plenty of problems but he isn’t a Trump clone or a Putin stooge. He’s been around for a while and was mayor of London for two terms.

theprestige · 10th July 2019, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Gerrymandering is close enough, don't you think?

I don't know. That's why I asked.

Are you trying to advance some claim about imminent gerrymandering in the UK?

theprestige · 10th July 2019, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

It's just you.

Trump is ... right wing.

Not particularly right wing. More like opportunistically centrist.

luchog · 10th July 2019, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Not particularly right wing. More like opportunistically centrist.

Which is why he supports so many right-wing causes and pushes so many right-wing agendas, and has appointed so many far-right and alt.right people to cabinet and advisory positions, and why he likes cozying up to fascists like Duterte and Bolsonaro, and why the bulk of his support comes from the far-right and religious right, and has parroted right-wing conspiracy theories, and...

One has to be pretty far to to the right already to see Trump as anything like a centrist.

cullennz · 10th July 2019, 03:24 PM

Didn't Trump start off as a Democrat?

Venom · 10th July 2019, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Didn't Trump start off as a Democrat?

I don't know what he started off as but he supported Democrats a lot from the 90s to late 2000s.

You could say he was for much of his life a Clint Eastwood type "social liberal, fiscal conservative". Maybe the former no longer applies.

Trump is certainly an opportunist as theprestige says.

theprestige · 10th July 2019, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by luchog

Which is why he supports so many right-wing causes and pushes so many right-wing agendas, and has appointed so many far-right and alt.right people to cabinet and advisory positions, and why he likes cozying up to fascists like Duterte and Bolsonaro, and why the bulk of his support comes from the far-right and religious right, and has parroted right-wing conspiracy theories, and...

One has to be pretty far to to the right already to see Trump as anything like a centrist.

Unfortunately I slipped in some sarcasm on my way to your argument, and sprained my give a **** muscle. Let me know when you've remedied your safety hazard, and I'll try again.

luchog · 10th July 2019, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Unfortunately I slipped in some sarcasm on my way to your argument, and sprained my give a **** muscle. Let me know when you've remedied your safety hazard, and I'll try again.

That's the strangest way to admit being a troll that I can recall seeing here.

luchog · 10th July 2019, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

I don't know what he started off as but he supported Democrats a lot from the 90s to late 2000s.

You could say he was for much of his life a Clint Eastwood type "social liberal, fiscal conservative". Maybe the former no longer applies.
.

He didn't support the Democrats, as such. Go look at his actual contribution patterns. He supported Democrats and Republicans almost equally, with slightly more money going to Democrats than Republicans.

You also have to look at who Trump contributed to. All big-business centrist Democrats like Rangel and Cuomo. At the same time he was also supporting GOP candidates like McCain and Abbott. He wasn't contributing based on any larger political agenda, he was clearly focused on protecting and expanding his wealth, and would give money to anyone he thought would help in that effort.

And that only lasted up until 2010; not coincidentally a year after Barak Obama took office as President. After that point, he curtailed nearly all his contributions to the Democrats, and started pumping huge amounts of money into Republican party candidates. All while he was promoting racist "birther" conspiracy theories. Given his rabid anti-Obama rhetoric both before and after his presidential campaign, and the general bigotry he has exhibited as long as he's been in the public eye (he has never been a "social liberal"), I have no doubt that racism had as much to do with his buddying up to the GOP and far-right as any other reason.

Sideroxylon · 10th July 2019, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO.
First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory.
But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist".
I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him.

Where do I sign up for Rubbles?

cullennz · 10th July 2019, 04:24 PM

Hate to break it to you

From the horses mouth

Trump

Quote:

"In many cases, I probably identify more as Democrat," Trump told CNN's Wolf Blitzer in a 2004 interview. "It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats. ...But certainly we had some very good economies under Democrats, as well as Republicans. But we've had some pretty bad disaster under the Republicans."

luchog · 10th July 2019, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Hate to break it to you

From the horses mouth

Trump

So yeah, like I said, it was all about money for him, not ideology. Again, up until 2010.

Giz · 10th July 2019, 05:49 PM

I think that Putin would love to destabilize and discredit western democracy but I don’t think we can credit him with the lions share of Trump and Brexit. These are reactions to long standing debates (national sovereignty, mass immigration etc) which have been considered outside the bounds of acceptable discourse by mainstream politicians.

Also, a growing tendency to see the other side as evil, rather than with good intentions but a different view of human nature (and therefore a different choice of methods) exacerbates the problem.

The tailored news/friend/culture outrage bubbles fostered by the internet also contribute (ironic that the internet, seen as a boon to knowledge and democracy in the 1990s is now a weakness)

Darat · 10th July 2019, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

It's not a crazy idea that other populist are looking at the Trump phenomenon in the US and thinking it's worth a try to replicate it.

"Trump is gonna have political imitators" shouldn't shock anybody.

And you need to keep your time lines straight, Johnson predates Trump and his type of populism is quite different to Trump's.

Beerina · 15th July 2019, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Democracy is always in trouble.

More so when people don't see the need to defend it.

Or who don't care and functionally look the other way when politicians arrogate massive new powers to themselves without a supermajority vote by the people to specifically grant the government a new power.

mgidm86 · 15th July 2019, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

hahaha.

As the right go further to the right of course you think the left are getting more extreme.

No the right is nothing to be proud of either. I'm not happy with what I see from either side. The left worries me a lot more because I disagree with so much more of what they want to do.

I really have no team to cheer for. None of us do so we just pick on each other.

The Great Zaganza · 15th July 2019, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

No the right is nothing to be proud of either. I'm not happy with what I see from either side. The left worries me a lot more because I disagree with so much more of what they want to do.

I really have no team to cheer for. None of us do so we just pick on each other.

given that they are out of power, they aren't actually doing anything.
I think it is irrational to be less worried about the actual drift to right-wing extremism in day-to-day politics than the potential drift to the left in a possible future administration.

applecorped · 16th July 2019, 04:54 AM

Hyperbole, thankfully is not in trouble whatsoever

Horatius · 16th July 2019, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

given that they are out of power, they aren't actually doing anything.
I think it is irrational to be less worried about the actual drift to right-wing extremism in day-to-day politics than the potential drift to the left in a possible future administration.

Particularly when you consider how far the right the US has moved over the last few decades. Even if the worst fears about what the Dems "want to do" were factual, it would take them decades to roll back what has already been done, and they'd need control of the entire government for all that time to do it.

Seriously, voting in a Democratic President in order to get rid of Trump simply will not produce some socialist/communist hellhole in the US.

10th July 2019, 11:20 AM	#1
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Democracy is in trouble.... Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future. ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism .
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

10th July 2019, 11:38 AM	#2
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 14,391	Originally Posted by dudalb Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future. ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism . I don't think it's specifically right wing populism, just happens to be at this time. It's the same weakness democracy has always had, and that most systems have tried to put measures in to control: mob mentality.
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

10th July 2019, 11:45 AM	#3
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by Hellbound I don't think it's specifically right wing populism, just happens to be at this time. It's the same weakness democracy has always had, and that most systems have tried to put measures in to control: mob mentality. And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO. First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory. But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist". I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

10th July 2019, 11:48 AM	#5
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145	Democracy is in trouble!!!!.... Part 372
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145

10th July 2019, 11:50 AM	#6
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,442	Originally Posted by theprestige Is he going to cancel elections? Gerrymandering is close enough, don't you think?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

10th July 2019, 11:46 AM	#4
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,675	Originally Posted by dudalb Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future. ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism . What do you anticipate he will do to get rid of the democratic processes that form the basis of the British system of government? Is he going to cancel elections?

10th July 2019, 11:52 AM	#7
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,682	Originally Posted by applecorped Democracy is in trouble!!!!.... Part 372 Democracy is always in trouble. More so when people don't see the need to defend it.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

10th July 2019, 12:08 PM	#8
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,901	I share your pet CT that Putin might be trying to do this. But is he successful so far? Probably not very, though I don't think we can ignore the powerful influence of RT and Sputnik on the narratives of world events. And yeah it's populism in general he seems to want.... for any country but his own of course. The drawbacks of representative democracy were always there though.

10th July 2019, 12:39 PM	#9
BrooklynBaby Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 1,106	Originally Posted by dudalb And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO. First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory. But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist". I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him. Well, where is your evidence? I think it is nonsense. The left is just moving farther to the left. It's that simple. Most think that fascism is right and communism is left, but there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between Hitler and Stalin, so there you go.

10th July 2019, 12:48 PM	#10
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,889	Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby Well, where is your evidence? I think it is nonsense. The left is just moving farther to the left. It's that simple. Most think that fascism is right and communism is left, but there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between Hitler and Stalin, so there you go. Evidence right here: 'The parting on the left, is now the parting on the right'. - Who
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på! Last edited by Vixen; 10th July 2019 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Wrong link

10th July 2019, 12:54 PM	#11
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 14,391	Originally Posted by dudalb And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO. First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory. But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist". I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him. Human nature. Even a non-violent person feels and urge to push back when they get shoved. Tribalism reigns.
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

10th July 2019, 12:58 PM	#12
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 19,832	Originally Posted by dudalb Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future. ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism . Johnson is a populist pompous idiot, but he is no Trump.
	__________________ "I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044

10th July 2019, 01:27 PM	#13
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,808	Originally Posted by cullennz Johnson is a populist pompous idiot, but he is no Trump. He's closer than your thinking. Unlike Trump, he isn't actually an idiot, just utterly amoral.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

10th July 2019, 01:29 PM	#14
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,682	... and very much in love with himself.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

10th July 2019, 01:37 PM	#15
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,693	It's not a crazy idea that other populist are looking at the Trump phenomenon in the US and thinking it's worth a try to replicate it. "Trump is gonna have political imitators" shouldn't shock anybody.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

10th July 2019, 01:39 PM	#16
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 14,391	I'm reminded of my favorite line form the original "Men in Black" movie (that I think illustrates the weakness of Democracy): "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

10th July 2019, 01:49 PM	#17
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,021	Originally Posted by dudalb Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future. ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism . Or maybe it's left wing lunacy that is driving everyone else to the breaking point? Can only speak for myself but that is a big part of it for me.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,021	__________________ Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.

10th July 2019, 01:59 PM	#18
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 19,832	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue It's not a crazy idea that other populist are looking at the Trump phenomenon in the US and thinking it's worth a try to replicate it. "Trump is gonna have political imitators" shouldn't shock anybody. Johnson was around in politics doing his brand of "thing" long before Trump.
	__________________ "I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044

10th July 2019, 02:03 PM	#19
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,944	Originally Posted by theprestige What do you anticipate he will do to get rid of the democratic processes that form the basis of the British system of government? Is he going to cancel elections? Boris will do that for him. 'Greater Good'

10th July 2019, 02:04 PM	#20
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,944	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Or maybe it's left wing lunacy that is driving everyone else to the breaking point? Can only speak for myself but that is a big part of it for me. hahaha. As the right go further to the right of course you think the left are getting more extreme.

10th July 2019, 02:09 PM	#21
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,808	Originally Posted by cullennz Johnson is a populist pompous idiot, but he is no Trump. Originally Posted by mgidm86 Or maybe it's left wing lunacy that is driving everyone else to the breaking point? Can only speak for myself but that is a big part of it for me. It's just you. Trump is highly abnormal and right wing. He is a compulsive liar, and unlike other politicians who might lie sometimes, he will lie about inconsequential things that can easily be proven wrong. Anthropogenic climate change is real and accepted by the overwhelming majority of climate scientists. Putin did interfere in US and European elections and the Brexit referendum. He wasn't supporting Clinton. Women's reproductive rights are under attack in many US states, and not by the Left. But maybe you have some specific examples of the left wing causing similar levels of damage. ETA: If you look at dudalb's posting record, he really isn't left wing, nor does he identify as such. One can be right of centre and against racism and bigotry.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending Last edited by jimbob; 10th July 2019 at 02:15 PM.

10th July 2019, 02:25 PM	#22
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,397	Originally Posted by dudalb Looks as though the UK is going to have a Trump clone as the next PM..since Johnson embraces authoritarian politics and will probably be backed by enough in his party to survive for the future. ANybody who frequents this website knows that I think in general about Conspiracy theories,but I am really wondering if Putin is not trying to engineer a world wide take down of democracy to ensure a Russian Hegemony .He has found democracy's weak spot....right wing populism . Johnson has plenty of problems but he isn’t a Trump clone or a Putin stooge. He’s been around for a while and was mayor of London for two terms.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

10th July 2019, 02:52 PM	#23
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,675	Originally Posted by Belz... Gerrymandering is close enough, don't you think? I don't know. That's why I asked. Are you trying to advance some claim about imminent gerrymandering in the UK?

10th July 2019, 02:54 PM	#24
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,675	Originally Posted by jimbob It's just you. Trump is ... right wing. Not particularly right wing. More like opportunistically centrist.

10th July 2019, 03:18 PM	#25
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 16,201	Originally Posted by theprestige Not particularly right wing. More like opportunistically centrist. Which is why he supports so many right-wing causes and pushes so many right-wing agendas, and has appointed so many far-right and alt.right people to cabinet and advisory positions, and why he likes cozying up to fascists like Duterte and Bolsonaro, and why the bulk of his support comes from the far-right and religious right, and has parroted right-wing conspiracy theories, and... One has to be pretty far to to the right already to see Trump as anything like a centrist.
	__________________ When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

10th July 2019, 03:24 PM	#26
cullennz Embarrasingly illiterate Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 19,832	Didn't Trump start off as a Democrat?
	__________________ "I mean, you've got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a story-book, man," Biden said. 2007 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna16911044

10th July 2019, 03:35 PM	#27
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,901	Originally Posted by cullennz Didn't Trump start off as a Democrat? I don't know what he started off as but he supported Democrats a lot from the 90s to late 2000s. You could say he was for much of his life a Clint Eastwood type "social liberal, fiscal conservative". Maybe the former no longer applies. Trump is certainly an opportunist as theprestige says.

10th July 2019, 03:36 PM	#28
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,675	Originally Posted by luchog Which is why he supports so many right-wing causes and pushes so many right-wing agendas, and has appointed so many far-right and alt.right people to cabinet and advisory positions, and why he likes cozying up to fascists like Duterte and Bolsonaro, and why the bulk of his support comes from the far-right and religious right, and has parroted right-wing conspiracy theories, and... One has to be pretty far to to the right already to see Trump as anything like a centrist. Unfortunately I slipped in some sarcasm on my way to your argument, and sprained my give a **** muscle. Let me know when you've remedied your safety hazard, and I'll try again.

10th July 2019, 03:57 PM	#29
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 16,201	Originally Posted by theprestige Unfortunately I slipped in some sarcasm on my way to your argument, and sprained my give a **** muscle. Let me know when you've remedied your safety hazard, and I'll try again. That's the strangest way to admit being a troll that I can recall seeing here.
	__________________ When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

10th July 2019, 04:14 PM	#30
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 16,201	Originally Posted by Venom I don't know what he started off as but he supported Democrats a lot from the 90s to late 2000s. You could say he was for much of his life a Clint Eastwood type "social liberal, fiscal conservative". Maybe the former no longer applies. . He didn't support the Democrats, as such. Go look at his actual contribution patterns. He supported Democrats and Republicans almost equally, with slightly more money going to Democrats than Republicans. You also have to look at who Trump contributed to. All big-business centrist Democrats like Rangel and Cuomo. At the same time he was also supporting GOP candidates like McCain and Abbott. He wasn't contributing based on any larger political agenda, he was clearly focused on protecting and expanding his wealth, and would give money to anyone he thought would help in that effort. And that only lasted up until 2010; not coincidentally a year after Barak Obama took office as President. After that point, he curtailed nearly all his contributions to the Democrats, and started pumping huge amounts of money into Republican party candidates. All while he was promoting racist "birther" conspiracy theories. Given his rabid anti-Obama rhetoric both before and after his presidential campaign, and the general bigotry he has exhibited as long as he's been in the public eye (he has never been a "social liberal"), I have no doubt that racism had as much to do with his buddying up to the GOP and far-right as any other reason.
	__________________ When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

10th July 2019, 04:24 PM	#31
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 24,330	Originally Posted by dudalb And it being funded and exploited from Moscow, IMHO. First time I am more or less embracing a conspiracy theory. But the sad thing is that you are seeing the mob mentality also beginning to take hold on the militant left;look , inthis forum, on the number of people on the left who are OK to basically deny freedom of speech to anybody they consider to be "fascist". I would not be surprised to find out that the far left is getting a little cash from Putin. The more powerful the two extremes grow, the better for him. Where do I sign up for Rubbles?

10th July 2019, 05:00 PM	#33
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 16,201	Originally Posted by cullennz Hate to break it to you From the horses mouth Trump So yeah, like I said, it was all about money for him, not ideology. Again, up until 2010.
	__________________ When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

10th July 2019, 05:49 PM	#34
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709	I think that Putin would love to destabilize and discredit western democracy but I don’t think we can credit him with the lions share of Trump and Brexit. These are reactions to long standing debates (national sovereignty, mass immigration etc) which have been considered outside the bounds of acceptable discourse by mainstream politicians. Also, a growing tendency to see the other side as evil, rather than with good intentions but a different view of human nature (and therefore a different choice of methods) exacerbates the problem. The tailored news/friend/culture outrage bubbles fostered by the internet also contribute (ironic that the internet, seen as a boon to knowledge and democracy in the 1990s is now a weakness)
Giz Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 8,709

10th July 2019, 11:22 PM	#35
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,096	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue It's not a crazy idea that other populist are looking at the Trump phenomenon in the US and thinking it's worth a try to replicate it. "Trump is gonna have political imitators" shouldn't shock anybody. And you need to keep your time lines straight, Johnson predates Trump and his type of populism is quite different to Trump's.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

15th July 2019, 11:06 AM	#36
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 30,354	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Democracy is always in trouble. More so when people don't see the need to defend it. Or who don't care and functionally look the other way when politicians arrogate massive new powers to themselves without a supermajority vote by the people to specifically grant the government a new power.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?