Mueller Investigation pt 7

[thaiboxerken]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Mueller could have jumped on the table and screamed that Trump was as guilty as sin and the Trumpublicans would still being ignoring it. Blaming him because they refuse to accept the bleeding obvious is targeting the wrong person.

True, but it would have been nice to see AND it may have changed public sentiment more than it did.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Mueller could have jumped on the table and screamed that Trump was as guilty as sin and the Trumpublicans would still being ignoring it. Blaming him because they refuse to accept the bleeding obvious is targeting the wrong person.

For some significant fraction, it's probably not wrong to say that they very much do accept the bleeding obvious and either don't care or lie about it "happily." It's unfortunate, but there are a lot of people who have anxiety about the future of the people of their tribe more than the future of their personal health or pocketbook... and that leads to a number of unpleasant choices.

[Paul2]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

I don't think so. I think Mueller was hamstrung from the beginning because Republicans would only agree to an independent investigation as long as it had no teeth. I also still believe Mueller could have done more than he did.

The Republicans had no role in establishing the investigation. Rosenstein was the one who created the investigation, all by himself - as far as I am able to determine.

[Delphic Oracle]

Originally Posted by Paul2

The Republicans had no role in establishing the investigation. Rosenstein was the one who created the investigation, all by himself - as far as I am able to determine.

Yes. It also cannot be stated enough that this appointment was not the beginning of the investigation, it was establishing a single independent authority for several related investigations.

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Paul2

The Republicans had no role in establishing the investigation. Rosenstein was the one who created the investigation, all by himself - as far as I am able to determine.

Wait, but isn't Rosenstein himself a Republican? And who's to know what behind-the-door talks he may have had or not had with other Republicans in establishing the investigation? Why would you assume Republicans had no role?

[Paul2]

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Wait, but isn't Rosenstein himself a Republican? And who's to know what behind-the-door talks he may have had or not had with other Republicans in establishing the investigation? Why would you assume Republicans had no role?

I was intending to talk about an *official* role for Republicans other than Rosenstein, because it's going to be hard to confirm what happened unofficially. I happy to accept unofficial influence if and when it's confirmed. I can even accept some amount of unofficial influence just on general principles, as no one is an island. But that doesn't mean it was significant or determinative.

My limitation to official role or influence was not explicit, admittedly.

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Paul2

I was intending to talk about an *official* role for Republicans other than Rosenstein, because it's going to be hard to confirm what happened unofficially. I happy to accept unofficial influence if and when it's confirmed. I can even accept some amount of unofficial influence just on general principles, as no one is an island. But that doesn't mean it was significant or determinative.

My limitation to official role or influence was not explicit, admittedly.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying there was unofficial influence either. I do tend to expect it anymore, however.

[Delphic Oracle]

The order naming Mueller to run the SCO referred to Comey's testimony before the intelligence committee being the catalyst for taking that action.

[Aridas]

Hmm...

Minnesota was mentioned just once in the Mueller report. Here's why it matters

Quote:

1. While Democrats thought the other three states were in play, they didn't think that was true of Minnesota—so the Russians would have known to target the other three states by virtue of having stolen the Democratic playbook, but not Minnesota.

2. The press hadn't pinpointed Minnesota as being in play in either. For instance, a late October Minnesota Star Tribune poll found Clinton widening her lead to 8 points over Trump. Huffington Post's aggregate found a very similar margin across all polls of the state up to Election Day.

3. There was a lot of Russian troll activity in Minnesota, according to Jamison, who thoroughly researched the topic for her recent book, Cyberwar: How Russian Hackers and Trolls Helped Elect a President. Before release of the Mueller report, Jamison said, "I could never explain why."

4. The Trump campaign clearly thought it was in play and deployed Trump there only two days before Election Day. "With just days left until Election Day, Donald Trump tried to do what 10 Republican presidential candidates have failed to accomplish: Win Minnesota," reported the St. Paul Pioneer Press on November 6, 2016.

Minnesota is the one state that only the Trump campaign thought was in play, that also saw heightened Russian troll activity, and that also made Manafort's exclusive internal poll briefing in August.

"It was unexpectedly close," Jamieson said of the state. "There's my little piece," she added, "that says, Hmm, if there was going to be coordination, on that one I can't explain it from having the Democratic playbook."

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

True, but it would have been nice to see AND it may have changed public sentiment more than it did.

It seems like you're dead-set on blaming Mueller despite giving PhantomWolf all of his points. I don't get why.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/statu...73708714201090

Quote:

Rep. Devin Nunes filed a $9.9M+ racketeering lawsuit today against Fusion GPS, accusing the group of conspiring to intimidate and harass him in retaliation for investigating the Steele dossier https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-Complaint.pdf … (HT @bradheath)

Document embedded in tweet.

[The Great Zaganza]

Who is giving Nunes the money for his lawsuits?

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/statu...73708714201090



Document embedded in tweet.

As someone said in the comments, I wonder if Nunez realizes that discovery goes both ways. It's not just a one-way street. Nunez is going to HAVE to provide evidence, and turn over things to prove his case. I wouldn't be surprised if Fusion didn't try to toss this out immediately just to get that far.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Who is giving Nunes the money for his lawsuits?

I'd like to say the NRA, but they seem to be fresh out of simoleons at the moment!

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

https://twitter.com/KlasfeldReports/...91188071485441

Quote:

New: Three House committees are investigating "reported efforts by Trump, his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, and possibly others to pressure Ukraine to help the President's reelection campaign."

Passage from the 5-page letter. cc:@CourthouseNews https://intelligence.house.gov/uploa...on_ukraine.pdf …

Excerpt embedded in tweet.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

https://twitter.com/joshscampbell/st...95372703207424

Quote:

House Intel Committee says fired National Security Adviser Michael Flynn failed to comply with a subpoena. They are demanding he appear on September 25. (@mkraju @jeremyherb)

Article embedded in tweet.

https://twitter.com/eliehonig/status...18302724272130

Quote:

Michael Flynn’s new lawyers already have guided him off the rails and he’s going to end up behind bars as a result (when he could have coasted to probation if he cooperated fully). This newest shenanigan will hurt him even more at sentencing.

[The Great Zaganza]

Flynn's new lawyer Sidney Powell doesn't give a damn about him not going to jail - indeed, she might prefer it since then she could have a talking point about Deep State Show Trials.

[Bogative]

The New York Times is reporting the Durham probe is now a criminal investigation. This is going to be so much fun!

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Bogative

The New York Times is reporting the Durham probe is now a criminal investigation. This is going to be so much fun!

Yeah all the fun of the Benghazi and Email Investigations, with similar results.

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Yeah all the fun of the Benghazi and Email Investigations, with similar results.

or Russia collusion and obstruction, except for the results part.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Bogative

or Russia collusion and obstruction.

Except that there was found to be evidence for both collusion and obstruction, just one didn't reach the level of criminality (in the eyes of the DoJ) and the other was unable to be prosecuted so was left to others to reach a conclusion from the evidence. The entire "Deep State" Trump attack is conspiracy fiction. For a start we already know how and why the investigations started, and second, the investigations in connections between the Russian Attacks and the Trump Campaign were never used to attack Trump during the elections, unlike the investigations into Clinton, and were not really made public until Trump himself started denouncing them after he became President. On top of that the Republican led Senate Committee just released a report agreeing with the US Intel Agencies that yes, Russia did attack the US 2016 Elections. That was not a conspiracy theory, however that somehow it was all a Deep State hit job backed by Ukraine, Clinton, the DNC, Stormy Daniels, and AntiFa is totally Fictional.

[portlandatheist]

Originally Posted by Bogative

or Russia collusion and obstruction, except for the results part.

results like countless indictments, prison sentences, asset seizures, and spin-off investigations. The Mueller probe uncovered corruption and it continues to bear fruit.

[Molinaro]

Originally Posted by Bogative

The New York Times is reporting the Durham probe is now a criminal investigation. This is going to be so much fun!

This is totally not Trump ordering a switch to plan B when his plan A of having the Ukraine announce an investigation of his political opponents fell through. Trump is totally not the kind of person who would now harp continuously on the idea of the Democrats being corrupt as proven by the fact that a criminal investigation is underway. And he totally won't make sure the investigation goes on, without any progress, for at least a year, so that he can keep pointing at it. Nope, not something he would ever do.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Bogative

The New York Times is reporting the Durham probe is now a criminal investigation. This is going to be so much fun!

Yeah right, the Durham probe: Fox News, what a surprise.

Quote:

The two Obama administration officials were at the helm when the unverified and largely discredited Steele dossier,

Largely discredited? That's ******* bull ****.

Care to come back to the real world and tell us how the dossier was "largely discredited"?

Let me get you started: No corroboration of the pee tape and mixed evidence re what's-his-face at a meeting in Prague.

That's what you call "largely discredited"? Got anything else?

There's an evidence established history of how the Russian election interference probe began. It was not a deep state CT against Trump. Maybe you've been gas-lighted. The rest of us haven't been.

[smartcooky]

I wonder if the manufacturers of those orange jump suits make them big enough to fit Bill Barr?

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Yeah right, the Durham probe: Fox News, what a surprise.

Largely discredited? That's ******* bull ****.

Care to come back to the real world and tell us how the dossier was "largely discredited"?

Let me get you started: No corroboration of the pee tape and mixed evidence re what's-his-face at a meeting in Prague.

That's what you call "largely discredited"? Got anything else?

There's an evidence established history of how the Russian election interference probe began. It was not a deep state CT against Trump. Maybe you've been gas-lighted. The rest of us haven't been.

Crissakes, even the Republican led Senate Intelligence Committee have reached the bipartisan, unanimous conclusion that Russia interfered in the 2016 election and did so to benefit Donald Trump, a fact that the Trump Stupidati just handwave away.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...rt_Volume2.pdf

Its only 85 pages long. I expect it to be TL;DR for educationally challenged Trumpistas to deal with, but they should at least make the effort.

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by Bogative

The New York Times is reporting the Durham probe is now a criminal investigation. This is going to be so much fun!

Gee, what coincidental timing. State just absolved the entire chain of recipients to Hillary's emails. So the "But, her emails" scandal has amounted to zilch. The "mass of illegal voters" sycophants committee disbanded itself and moved on to raising money for Teh Wall. The Benghazi scandal and the Uranium One scandal have been reduced to chapter headings in conspiracy books.

So Mick calls the DoJ.... "Hey, Bill! Are you the keeper of the faith or not? Get something out there to distract the minions... now!"
Barr: "Mick, all that stuff is probably just going to call more attention to me and Rudy jet-setting around the world trying to coerce foreign nationals to help out!"
Mulvaney: "Naaah, I took care of that! Didn't you see when I told 'em to get over it? Everybody bought it, I've been assured so by the Freedom Caucus! Go with the star-crossed lovers thing! Don Donald loves that one!"

[tanabear]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

For a start we already know how and why the investigations started, and second, the investigations in connections between the Russian Attacks and the Trump Campaign were never used to attack Trump during the elections...

Everything you just stated is completely false. So how did the investigation really begin? Did it begin with the Steele Dossier and the FISA on Carter Page or did it begin with George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud? The fake news media has promoted both origin stories. Which one is it???

False again. The media was attacking Trump over the bogus Russiagate conspiracy before the election. Christopher Steele and Glenn Simpson of Fusion GPS were peddling the information in the dossier to the FBI and media BEFORE the election. On 09/23/2016 Michael Isikoff published a Yahoo News article about Carter Page's trip to Moscow in July of 2016 based off information in the dossier.

New York Magazine published on November 1st, 2016 an article entitled,

"Final ‘October Surprises’ Reveal FBI Is Probing Trump’s Alleged Russia Ties."
- http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/...ssia-ties.html

It reads in part,
"Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid alleged that the FBI is sitting on “explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump, his top advisors, and the Russian government.” Reid has been known to make wild accusations close to an election, but apparently this one was (sort of) true. According to the New York Times, the FBI spent much of the summer investigating the many allegations regarding Trump’s ties to Russia. The wide-reaching probe, which is reportedly ongoing, looked at his advisers, his financial activities, and the hack of Democratic officials..."

Now the tables are turned and hopefully we can discover all the Deep State actors in this country and elsewhere that launched a coup to overthrow an elected President.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by tanabear

Everything you just stated is completely false. So how did the investigation really begin? Did it begin with the Steele Dossier and the FISA on Carter Page or did it begin with George Papadopoulos's meeting with Joseph Mifsud? The fake news media has promoted both origin stories. Which one is it???

Neither one, try again.

Quote:

False again. The media was attacking Trump over the bogus Russiagate conspiracy before the election. Christopher Steele and Glenn Simpson of Fusion GPS were peddling the information in the dossier to the FBI and media BEFORE the election. On 09/23/2016 Michael Isikoff published a Yahoo News article about Carter Page's trip to Moscow in July of 2016 based off information in the dossier.

New York Magazine published on November 1st, 2016 an article entitled,

"Final ‘October Surprises’ Reveal FBI Is Probing Trump’s Alleged Russia Ties."
- http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/...ssia-ties.html

It reads in part,
"Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid alleged that the FBI is sitting on “explosive information about close ties and coordination between Donald Trump, his top advisors, and the Russian government.” Reid has been known to make wild accusations close to an election, but apparently this one was (sort of) true. According to the New York Times, the FBI spent much of the summer investigating the many allegations regarding Trump’s ties to Russia. The wide-reaching probe, which is reportedly ongoing, looked at his advisers, his financial activities, and the hack of Democratic officials..."

Now the tables are turned and hopefully we can discover all the Deep State actors in this country and elsewhere that launched a coup to overthrow an elected President.

Rather than being false as you claim, your own link supports what I said. It took Reid coming out and disclosing that there was an investigation to even get a media story, and even in that story there was doubt about if it was true with them stating that Reid was known for making wild allegations before conceding that there might be some truth to this one.

Shall we compare with a real media attack and look at the Email Stories? Your own link states that the FBI was sitting on explosive information about Trump, information they didn't release, you know, the very people you are accusing of being the "Deep State" and who had all the information, and what did they do with it? They sat on it and kept it hidden. Amazing sort of attempted coup that, a coup in which those running the coup did exactly nothing to actually use the damaging information they had at hand.

[Stacyhs]

I see the Russians are busy again. You'd think they'd try to be a bit less obvious. But, no.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I see the Russians are busy again. You'd think they'd try to be a bit less obvious. But, no.

Given their target audience, why would they care? After all, their target audience doesn't.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Remember when Trump claimed he couldn't believe what 'his people' were finding in HI regarding Obama's birth conspiracy?

Apparently Trumpers have no memory of that when Trump tries to tell us what Durham and Barr are finding regarding the beginning of the Russia interference investigation.

[Aridas]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Remember when Trump claimed he couldn't believe what 'his people' were finding in HI regarding Obama's birth conspiracy?

Apparently Trumpers have no memory of that when Trump tries to tell us what Durham and Barr are finding regarding the beginning of the Russia interference investigation.

He couldn't believe that they were finding nothing, in other words?

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I see the Russians are busy again. You'd think they'd try to be a bit less obvious. But, no.

Is that you, Hillary?

[autumn1971]

Originally Posted by Bogative

Is that you, Hillary?

No, Vlad

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Bogative

Is that you, Hillary?

Psst... Hillary is yesterday's politician. She ain't running again you need a new bogeyman.

[Bogative]

Originally Posted by autumn1971

No, Vlad

Thanks, Maddow.

[Silly Green Monkey]

Originally Posted by Darat

Psst... Hillary is yesterday's politician. She ain't running again you need a new bogeyman.

No don't tell them! Better if they focus on the has-been and ignore the current candidates, that'll leave them not enough time to make up damaging rumors!

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Bogative

Is that you, Hillary?

Originally Posted by Bogative

Thanks, Maddow.

Let me guess: you don't believe Russia interfered in the 2016 election by trying to influence voters with bots or is actively engaging in the same tactics today?

[tanabear]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Care to come back to the real world and tell us how the dossier was "largely discredited"

Let me get you started: No corroboration of the pee tape and mixed evidence re what's-his-face at a meeting in Prague.

That's what you call "largely discredited"? Got anything else?.

Have you ever read the dossier? How about this bit of conspiracy theorizing.

"...the Russian authorities had been cultivating and supporting US Republican presidential candidate, Donald TRUMP for at least 5 years..."

So Trump had been conspiring with Putin and Russian intelligence for 5 years so at least since 2011.

"In terms of specifics, Source A confided that the Kremlin had been feeding TRUMP and his team valuable intelligence on his opponents, including Democratic presidential candidate Hillary CLINTON, for several years..."

So the Kremlin was plotting with Trump, a reality show star and real estate developer, to run for President in 2016 to thwart the ambitions of Hillary Clinton and this all started in 2011.

"This was confirmed by Source D, a close associate of TRUMP who had organized and managed his recent trips to Moscow."

So Source D is a close confidant of Trump and managed his recent trips to Moscow. This was written in 2016. Trump is a very public person and launched his campaign for President in June of 2015. His only known trip to Moscow during this time was the Miss America Pageant in 2013. Now if Trump was really making trips to Moscow this would have been very easy for the FBI to confirm. Trump even flies around in a big plane with TRUMP written on the side of it. So why haven't we heard about these trips to Moscow? Because this is just made-up BS.

"Speaking in confidence to a compatriot in late July 2016, Source E, an ethnic Russian close associate of Republican US presidential candidate Donald TRUMP, admitted that there was a well-developed conspiracy of co-operation between them and the Russian leadership. This was managed on the TRUMP side...Paul MANAFORT...Mechanism for transmitting this intelligence involves "pension" disbursements to Russian emigres living in US as cover, using consular officials in New York, DC and Miami."

Trump, Manafort and Page, long before the campaign, are secretly running a "two-way flow of intelligence and other useful information" between the Kremlin and Russian emigres living in America. This is being coordinated out of consular offices. But a few minutes searching on the Internet will verify that there was no Russian consulate in Miami.

The source for this conspiracy theory appears to be Sergey Millian. He has been described as a "big talker" and he was likely feeding nonsense to Steele and Simpson. The FBI should have attempted to confirm such idiocy before they sought the FISA warrant on Page.

Maybe you can fill me in on the important and verified portions of the Steele Dossier.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

There's an evidence established history of how the Russian election interference probe began. It was not a deep state CT against Trump. Maybe you've been gas-lighted. The rest of us haven't been.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Neither one, try again.

So what was the origin of the Trump-Russia collusion investigation?

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Rather than being false as you claim, your own link supports what I said. It took Reid coming out and disclosing that there was an investigation to even get a media story.

You had stated, "the Russian Attacks and the Trump Campaign were never used to attack Trump during the elections..."

The statement by Harry Reid and articles by Michael Isikoff, New York Magazine, and Mother Jones were before the election. David Corn's article was entitled: "A Veteran Spy Has Given the FBI Information Alleging a Russian Operation to Cultivate Donald Trump." It was published on October 31st, 2016. To say that there weren't stories in the press regarding Trump-Russia collusion before the election is false.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Shall we compare with a real media attack and look at the Email Stories? Your own link states that the FBI was sitting on explosive information about Trump, information they didn't release, you know, the very people you are accusing of being the "Deep State" and who had all the information, and what did they do with it? They sat on it and kept it hidden. Amazing sort of attempted coup that, a coup in which those running the coup did exactly nothing to actually use the damaging information they had at hand.

This explosive information about Trump they were sitting on was apparently the Steele Dossier which was paid for political opposition research, not verified intelligence. Information from the dossier was reported in Michael Isikoff's Yahoo article.

You write: "They sat on it and kept it hidden..."

So leaking information from the dossier to the press and using it to obtain a FISA warrant on an American citizen(Carter Page) is sitting on it and keeping it hidden?

p.s. The coup attempt occurred after Trump was elected President.