[Continuation] House Impeachment Inquiry - part 3 - Page 4

Norman Alexander · 22nd January 2020, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Unsurprisingly, it was a pro-Trump protester:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tru...liveBlogHeader

Yeah, a nut-case.

JPK · 22nd January 2020, 07:24 PM

Good evening. The opening arguments are being made, FOX news has had a little box showing a live feed of it with no audio of it while their hosts talk about the horrible "do nothing Democrats" are and Hillary Clinton. Is there any wonder why those that use FOX as their source of news have no idea what's going on?

Meadmaker · 22nd January 2020, 07:28 PM

Did I just hear what I think I just heard?

I was riding home, listening to the trial on the radio. There was a female house manager laying out the case, and she said something that made me do a double take.

In describing the meeting of Senator Chris Murphy with President Zelensky, she said that Murphy told the Ukranian President that there was bipartisan support for continued military aid to the Ukraine, but that support could be jeopardized if Zelensky became embroiled in American politics.

I only vaguely remembered that senators had gone to Ukraine, so I looked up the meeting when I got home, and the accounts didn't include that, although they didn't contradict it either. Did I hear it right? I was driving and thinking about something else at the time, so I wasn't paying close attention.

(Yes, I know I could probably find a transcript, but what's the fun of that? I want to hear other's reactions as well.)

theprestige · 22nd January 2020, 07:46 PM

It always skeeves me out when Senators undertake international diplomacy on their own stick.

JPK · 22nd January 2020, 07:57 PM

Good evening theprestige

Originally Posted by theprestige

It always skeeves me out when Senators undertake international diplomacy on their own stick.

The

Just curious, why? How about the President's personal attorney?

acbytesla · 22nd January 2020, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

It always skeeves me out when Senators undertake international diplomacy on their own stick.

You do understand that foreign policy is the Senate's primary responsibility?

Minoosh · 22nd January 2020, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

You do understand that foreign policy is the Senate's primary responsibility?

I don't understand why it would be relevant to begin with. But I haven't been watching, or listening.

It strikes me as having nothing to do with the impeachment case. Baffled why anyone would bring it up, but especially a House manager. They don't need filler and they *really* don't need accounts of senators putting their own pressure on Zelensky.

Unless they know the defense is going to bring it up and just want to get ahead of it.

Cain · 22nd January 2020, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by JPK

Good evening. The opening arguments are being made, FOX news has had a little box showing a live feed of it with no audio of it while their hosts talk about the horrible "do nothing Democrats" are and Hillary Clinton. Is there any wonder why those that use FOX as their source of news have no idea what's going on?

I saw a clip from Fox News yesterday. The chyron read: AFTER RAMMING THROUGH BOGUS IMPEACHMENT SHAM, HOUSE DEMS NOW MOANING ABOUT FAIRNESS IN SENATE TRIAL

They had a feed of Adam Schiff delivering opening arguments (muted) while the upper right-corner had a scroll of Trump's accomplishments (renegotiated NAFTA, started buildng the wall, etc). Someone on Twitter described it as "State TV on steroids." ******' idiocracy.

Shalamar · 22nd January 2020, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Good point. Thank you. I'll try to be better in the future.

Skeptic Ginger · 22nd January 2020, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

It really doesn't.

Other way round. In order to imply that it was deliberate you have to add an adverb, such as "deliberately".

Here's an example of a definition that doesn't imply "did it purposefully".

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...ischaracterize

Can you provide a link to a dictionary that defines in in a way that does imply what you are calling the "default definition"?

This is a silly argument. Perhaps you read a different connotation than I do. I also read the news headline to be ginning the issue up. A misleading manner suggests the desire to mislead.

I don't see the point in this tedium beyond that.

Skeptic Ginger · 22nd January 2020, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by DallasDad

I couldn't catch what the shouter said, or who it was. Was it one of the Senators? Does anyone know what he said?

I believe he called Schumer the devil.

marting · 22nd January 2020, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

You do understand that foreign policy is the Senate's primary responsibility?

Senate approval and consent is required for treaties but foreign policy is under the purview of the President as are all other executive functions. Furthermore, funding for specific foreign policy objectives originates in the House. It's common for Senators and Representatives to travel to and interact with other countries as part of their oversight but they have no executive authority.

acbytesla · 22nd January 2020, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by marting

Senate approval and consent is required for treaties but foreign policy is under the purview of the President as are all other executive functions. Furthermore, funding for specific foreign policy objectives originates in the House. It's common for Senators and Representatives to travel to and interact with other countries as part of their oversight but they have no executive authority.

Yes. But their primary responsibility is foreign policy oversight.

Meadmaker · 22nd January 2020, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

They don't need filler and they *really* don't need accounts of senators putting their own pressure on Zelensky.

And at least one person gets the issue.

But, I checked a conservative web site or two, and there was nothing, so I probably misheard it. I checked accounts of the meeting from this fall, and the big story about it was that one of the Senators changed his story between giving two accounts. Not nearly as big of a deal.

I did find myself wondering today what if Trump and team actually had something in their back pocket. Not likely, but they have to say something.

ETA: Here's a link to a story from November https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...o-probe-bidens

In the story, Murphy said he would advise Zelensky not to get embroiled in US politics. In tonight's speech, I thought the manager said that Murphy warned Zelensky that getting involved could threaten the bipartisan support for the aid. I couldn't find a transcript, and the computer I'm on right now has a faulty sound system, so I can't listen to any videos.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 23rd January 2020, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

This is a silly argument. Perhaps you read a different connotation than I do. I also read the news headline to be ginning the issue up. A misleading manner suggests the desire to mislead.

I don't see the point in this tedium beyond that.

Okay, so you can't find an example of what you call the "default definition" and you admit that rather than being the "default definition" it's just something that you personally infer, contrary to the actual definition. Glad we're on the same page.

smartcooky · 23rd January 2020, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cain

I saw a clip from Fox News yesterday. The chyron read: AFTER RAMMING THROUGH BOGUS IMPEACHMENT SHAM, HOUSE DEMS NOW MOANING ABOUT FAIRNESS IN SENATE TRIAL

They had a feed of Adam Schiff delivering opening arguments (muted) while the upper right-corner had a scroll of Trump's accomplishments (renegotiated NAFTA, started buildng the wall, etc). Someone on Twitter described it as "State TV on steroids." ******' idiocracy.

The Trump Administration's version of Tsentral'noye televideniye SSSR... acts just like it too!

The Don · 23rd January 2020, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Huh. I always read that as "the GOP has been taken over by Trump", not "there is a faction of the GOP that is pro-Trump".

Given that President Trump has a 95% approval rating within the GOP then I think that's a distinction without a significant difference.

That's not to say that it was a hostile take-over, the GOP has willingly aligned itself to President Trump and his objectives and in the process has seems to have changed some of its fundamental principles such as free trade and fiscal responsibility.

theprestige · 23rd January 2020, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Yes. But their primary responsibility is foreign policy oversight.

There's a difference between Senators overseeing foreign policy by consensus of the Senate, and the Senators conducting diplomacy themselves as individuals.

plague311 · 23rd January 2020, 07:42 AM

I was pretty impressed with Schiff's delivery yesterday. It was repetitive but very clear. He did an outstanding job of using Trump's own words, pressers and statements against him to expose what he was doing. Everything was laid out in an easy to understand way.

I find it hard to think the Dem's didn't have this as their plan all along. Schiff really, REALLY nailed home that the defense can't claim that what the House managers are saying is wrong because the defense is sitting on the evidence. If they want to prove the House wrong they can literally provide evidence any time they want without any issue at all. I thought it was great and really put the defense in a box.

Aridas · 23rd January 2020, 07:58 AM

Because here's probably a more appropriate place than the general Trump Presidency thread...

The Senate Republicans didn't even try to follow the set rules, with no consequences from Roberts.

Quote:

So naturally, throughout the day, Republicans left their seats, wandered out into the hallways, and complained that they were “bored.” Though the rules of the trial require all senators to be present, double-digit numbers of Republicans were missing at any given time. At least one, Missouri’s Josh Hawley, found an opportunity to make an appearance with Fox News’ Tucker Carlson during the trial … without garnering as much as the shake of a finger from Chief Justice John Roberts.

Belz... · 23rd January 2020, 08:00 AM

Why would roberts say anything? It's not like he has any real power here.

JoeMorgue · 23rd January 2020, 08:00 AM

Pull one of their tricks. Shut and lock the doors and have the vote without them.

Cabbage · 23rd January 2020, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Because here's probably a more appropriate place than the general Trump Presidency thread...

The Senate Republicans didn't even try to follow the set rules, with no consequences from Roberts.

Is there any way they could arrange to have the vote to convict/acquit taken when double digit numbers of Republicans are out in the hallway?

Aridas · 23rd January 2020, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Why would roberts say anything? It's not like he has any real power here.

Mmm. Perhaps I was wrong in thinking that the one presiding over the proceedings would be more than a flower pot.

The Great Zaganza · 23rd January 2020, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Why would roberts say anything? It's not like he has any real power here.

Given that he also has to run the Supreme Court, it would be more productive for him to catch some zzz's during the Trial.

carlitos · 23rd January 2020, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Shalamar

Do as I say, not as I do?

Squeegee Beckenheim · 23rd January 2020, 10:02 AM

Interesting twitter thread on a newly-filed FOIA request from the NYT re Ukraine documents, in which various claims of privilege are debunked

Squeegee Beckenheim · 23rd January 2020, 10:04 AM

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...93490476371968

Quote:

Highly notable stuff from @MZanona:

Trump ally Rep. GAETZ praised Dems' use of multimedia, which he said gave their trial presentation a "cable news" feel ...

Unlike the Trump team, whose presentation Gaetz said felt like “an 8th grade book report.”

Article embedded in tweet. Notable because Gaetz was a full-on lapdog, but then got on the wrong side of Trump & the rest of the GOP. This could be an indicator that the split will increase from here on in.

Belz... · 23rd January 2020, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...93490476371968

Article embedded in tweet. Notable because Gaetz was a full-on lapdog, but then got on the wrong side of Trump & the rest of the GOP. This could be an indicator that the split will increase from here on in.

What happened between him and Trump?

plague311 · 23rd January 2020, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

What happened between him and Trump?

Gaetz voted to limit his powers in the Middle East.

Belz... · 23rd January 2020, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Gaetz voted to limit his powers in the Middle East.

Oops. Someone should have told him that this was a big no-no.

Segnosaur · 23rd January 2020, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Re: Why Congess Critter Gaetz is currently in Trump's doghouse...

Quote:

Gaetz voted to limit his powers in the Middle East.

Oops. Someone should have told him that this was a big no-no.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...nt-team-102534

Yeah. I guess he thought he was supposed to be on Trump's impeachment defense team. Supposedly it was Trump's legislative Affairs Director Eric Ueland who pushed for him not to be included.

This should serve as a warning to anyone who might want to support Trump: Loyalty is non-existent, and you can be dropped the moment it is politically expedient. Gaetz had been a pretty vocal pro-Trump supporter, and now he's on the outs.

Of course, with Trump's track record of turning his back on allies, Gaetz shouldn't have been surprised.

thaiboxerken · 23rd January 2020, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Of course, with Trump's track record of turning his back on allies, Gaetz shouldn't have been surprised.

And yet Trump still has allies that believe it won't happen to them.

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2020, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

I was pretty impressed with Schiff's delivery yesterday. It was repetitive but very clear. He did an outstanding job of using Trump's own words, pressers and statements against him to expose what he was doing. Everything was laid out in an easy to understand way.

I find it hard to think the Dem's didn't have this as their plan all along. Schiff really, REALLY nailed home that the defense can't claim that what the House managers are saying is wrong because the defense is sitting on the evidence. If they want to prove the House wrong they can literally provide evidence any time they want without any issue at all. I thought it was great and really put the defense in a box.

I agree. Schiff did a damn fine job of presenting the evidence. It was clear, organized and well supported. On the other hand, all the Repubs had is their typical rhetoric of "the Dems want to overturn the 2016 election" nonsense. It's pathetic.

alfaniner · 23rd January 2020, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

And yet Trump still has allies that believe it won't happen to them.

It reminds me of that account:

First they came for the (oppressed group)
and I didn't say anything
Then they came for the (other oppressed group)
and I didn't say anything
(continue for several iterations)
They they came for me
because there was no one else left.

TragicMonkey · 23rd January 2020, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

And yet Trump still has allies that believe it won't happen to them.

Insert "I never thought the leopards would eat MY face" meme here.

It reminds me of the people who marry someone who cheated on their spouse with them, and are then flabbergasted when they themselves are cheated upon.

Horatius · 23rd January 2020, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Of course, with Trump's track record of turning his back on allies, Gaetz shouldn't have been surprised.

Trump's Theme Song:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

smartcooky · 23rd January 2020, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I agree. Schiff did a damn fine job of presenting the evidence. It was clear, organized and well supported. On the other hand, all the Repubs had is their typical rhetoric of "the Dems want to overturn the 2016 election" nonsense. It's pathetic.

If you want to see up close examples of what corrupt behaviour in the legislative body of a Banana Republic looks like, look no further than the actions of the Republican Senators for the next few days.

plague311 · 23rd January 2020, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

If you want to see up close examples of what corrupt behaviour in the legislative body of a Banana Republic looks like, look no further than the actions of the Republican Senators for the next few days.

Lindsey Graham actually gave props to Schiff, it was pretty neat for those two.

pgwenthold · 23rd January 2020, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Not all of the right, or even Republicans, support Trump. It's one reason I try to use the qualifier 'the Trump GOP' when making such observations.

Oh fiddle faddle.

According to the Trumpster, he has a 95% approval record among Republicans, which, he claims, is a record level of support. So saying that Republicans support Trump is apparently more true now than it has ever been for any President in history.

Now, if those non-Trump supporting Republicans have a problem with any of that, then they need stand up and do something about it. If you don't like being lumped in with Trumpets, then take that up with the person who is lumping you in there in the first place, and that is the President.

If the 95% is a lie, then make it known. Don't sit quietly while the President claims you as a supporter and then whine when you get lumped in as a supporter by someone else.

22nd January 2020, 07:11 PM	#121
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,795	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Unsurprisingly, it was a pro-Trump protester: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tru...liveBlogHeader Yeah, a nut-case.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

22nd January 2020, 07:24 PM	#122
JPK Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,864	Good evening. The opening arguments are being made, FOX news has had a little box showing a live feed of it with no audio of it while their hosts talk about the horrible "do nothing Democrats" are and Hillary Clinton. Is there any wonder why those that use FOX as their source of news have no idea what's going on?
JPK Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,864	__________________ "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier... A belief's a dangerous thing. People die for it. People kill for it." Rufus, the 13th apostle, Dogma "You can't prove air." Sylvia Browne John Kardel

22nd January 2020, 07:57 PM	#125
JPK Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,864	Good evening theprestige Originally Posted by theprestige It always skeeves me out when Senators undertake international diplomacy on their own stick. The Just curious, why? How about the President's personal attorney?
JPK Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,864	__________________ "I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier... A belief's a dangerous thing. People die for it. People kill for it." Rufus, the 13th apostle, Dogma "You can't prove air." Sylvia Browne John Kardel

22nd January 2020, 08:04 PM	#126
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by theprestige It always skeeves me out when Senators undertake international diplomacy on their own stick. You do understand that foreign policy is the Senate's primary responsibility?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

22nd January 2020, 08:33 PM	#128
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 14,278	Originally Posted by JPK Good evening. The opening arguments are being made, FOX news has had a little box showing a live feed of it with no audio of it while their hosts talk about the horrible "do nothing Democrats" are and Hillary Clinton. Is there any wonder why those that use FOX as their source of news have no idea what's going on? I saw a clip from Fox News yesterday. The chyron read: AFTER RAMMING THROUGH BOGUS IMPEACHMENT SHAM, HOUSE DEMS NOW MOANING ABOUT FAIRNESS IN SENATE TRIAL They had a feed of Adam Schiff delivering opening arguments (muted) while the upper right-corner had a scroll of Trump's accomplishments (renegotiated NAFTA, started buildng the wall, etc). Someone on Twitter described it as "State TV on steroids." ******' idiocracy.
	__________________ April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

22nd January 2020, 07:28 PM	#123
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,276	Did I just hear what I think I just heard? I was riding home, listening to the trial on the radio. There was a female house manager laying out the case, and she said something that made me do a double take. In describing the meeting of Senator Chris Murphy with President Zelensky, she said that Murphy told the Ukranian President that there was bipartisan support for continued military aid to the Ukraine, but that support could be jeopardized if Zelensky became embroiled in American politics. I only vaguely remembered that senators had gone to Ukraine, so I looked up the meeting when I got home, and the accounts didn't include that, although they didn't contradict it either. Did I hear it right? I was driving and thinking about something else at the time, so I wasn't paying close attention. (Yes, I know I could probably find a transcript, but what's the fun of that? I want to hear other's reactions as well.)

22nd January 2020, 07:46 PM	#124
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,664	It always skeeves me out when Senators undertake international diplomacy on their own stick.

22nd January 2020, 08:20 PM	#127
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by acbytesla You do understand that foreign policy is the Senate's primary responsibility? I don't understand why it would be relevant to begin with. But I haven't been watching, or listening. It strikes me as having nothing to do with the impeachment case. Baffled why anyone would bring it up, but especially a House manager. They don't need filler and they really don't need accounts of senators putting their own pressure on Zelensky. Unless they know the defense is going to bring it up and just want to get ahead of it.

22nd January 2020, 08:42 PM	#129
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere Else Posts: 4,952	Originally Posted by theprestige Good point. Thank you. I'll try to be better in the future.
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."

22nd January 2020, 08:48 PM	#130
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,988	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim It really doesn't. Other way round. In order to imply that it was deliberate you have to add an adverb, such as "deliberately". Here's an example of a definition that doesn't imply "did it purposefully". https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...ischaracterize Can you provide a link to a dictionary that defines in in a way that does imply what you are calling the "default definition"? This is a silly argument. Perhaps you read a different connotation than I do. I also read the news headline to be ginning the issue up. A misleading manner suggests the desire to mislead. I don't see the point in this tedium beyond that.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 22nd January 2020 at 08:50 PM.

22nd January 2020, 08:51 PM	#131
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,988	Originally Posted by DallasDad I couldn't catch what the shouter said, or who it was. Was it one of the Senators? Does anyone know what he said? I believe he called Schumer the devil.

22nd January 2020, 08:52 PM	#132
marting Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,144	Originally Posted by acbytesla You do understand that foreign policy is the Senate's primary responsibility? Senate approval and consent is required for treaties but foreign policy is under the purview of the President as are all other executive functions. Furthermore, funding for specific foreign policy objectives originates in the House. It's common for Senators and Representatives to travel to and interact with other countries as part of their oversight but they have no executive authority.
marting Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,144	__________________ Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.

22nd January 2020, 09:06 PM	#133
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by marting Senate approval and consent is required for treaties but foreign policy is under the purview of the President as are all other executive functions. Furthermore, funding for specific foreign policy objectives originates in the House. It's common for Senators and Representatives to travel to and interact with other countries as part of their oversight but they have no executive authority. Yes. But their primary responsibility is foreign policy oversight.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

22nd January 2020, 09:21 PM	#134
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,276	Originally Posted by Minoosh They don't need filler and they really don't need accounts of senators putting their own pressure on Zelensky. And at least one person gets the issue. But, I checked a conservative web site or two, and there was nothing, so I probably misheard it. I checked accounts of the meeting from this fall, and the big story about it was that one of the Senators changed his story between giving two accounts. Not nearly as big of a deal. I did find myself wondering today what if Trump and team actually had something in their back pocket. Not likely, but they have to say something. ETA: Here's a link to a story from November https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...o-probe-bidens In the story, Murphy said he would advise Zelensky not to get embroiled in US politics. In tonight's speech, I thought the manager said that Murphy warned Zelensky that getting involved could threaten the bipartisan support for the aid. I couldn't find a transcript, and the computer I'm on right now has a faulty sound system, so I can't listen to any videos.
	Last edited by Meadmaker; 22nd January 2020 at 09:49 PM.

23rd January 2020, 01:00 AM	#135
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,252	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger This is a silly argument. Perhaps you read a different connotation than I do. I also read the news headline to be ginning the issue up. A misleading manner suggests the desire to mislead. I don't see the point in this tedium beyond that. Okay, so you can't find an example of what you call the "default definition" and you admit that rather than being the "default definition" it's just something that you personally infer, contrary to the actual definition. Glad we're on the same page.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

23rd January 2020, 02:08 AM	#136
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 16,807	Originally Posted by Cain I saw a clip from Fox News yesterday. The chyron read: AFTER RAMMING THROUGH BOGUS IMPEACHMENT SHAM, HOUSE DEMS NOW MOANING ABOUT FAIRNESS IN SENATE TRIAL They had a feed of Adam Schiff delivering opening arguments (muted) while the upper right-corner had a scroll of Trump's accomplishments (renegotiated NAFTA, started buildng the wall, etc). Someone on Twitter described it as "State TV on steroids." ****' idiocracy. The Trump Administration's version of Tsentral'noye televideniye SSSR... acts just like it too!
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

23rd January 2020, 03:01 AM	#137
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,360	Originally Posted by theprestige Huh. I always read that as "the GOP has been taken over by Trump", not "there is a faction of the GOP that is pro-Trump". Given that President Trump has a 95% approval rating within the GOP then I think that's a distinction without a significant difference. That's not to say that it was a hostile take-over, the GOP has willingly aligned itself to President Trump and his objectives and in the process has seems to have changed some of its fundamental principles such as free trade and fiscal responsibility.

23rd January 2020, 06:32 AM	#138
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,664	Originally Posted by acbytesla Yes. But their primary responsibility is foreign policy oversight. There's a difference between Senators overseeing foreign policy by consensus of the Senate, and the Senators conducting diplomacy themselves as individuals.

23rd January 2020, 07:42 AM	#139
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,478	I was pretty impressed with Schiff's delivery yesterday. It was repetitive but very clear. He did an outstanding job of using Trump's own words, pressers and statements against him to expose what he was doing. Everything was laid out in an easy to understand way. I find it hard to think the Dem's didn't have this as their plan all along. Schiff really, REALLY nailed home that the defense can't claim that what the House managers are saying is wrong because the defense is sitting on the evidence. If they want to prove the House wrong they can literally provide evidence any time they want without any issue at all. I thought it was great and really put the defense in a box.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

23rd January 2020, 07:58 AM	#140
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,453	Because here's probably a more appropriate place than the general Trump Presidency thread... The Senate Republicans didn't even try to follow the set rules, with no consequences from Roberts. Quote: So naturally, throughout the day, Republicans left their seats, wandered out into the hallways, and complained that they were “bored.” Though the rules of the trial require all senators to be present, double-digit numbers of Republicans were missing at any given time. At least one, Missouri’s Josh Hawley, found an opportunity to make an appearance with Fox News’ Tucker Carlson during the trial … without garnering as much as the shake of a finger from Chief Justice John Roberts.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

23rd January 2020, 08:00 AM	#141
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,440	Why would roberts say anything? It's not like he has any real power here.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

23rd January 2020, 08:00 AM	#142
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Pull one of their tricks. Shut and lock the doors and have the vote without them.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

23rd January 2020, 08:01 AM	#143
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598	Originally Posted by Aridas Because here's probably a more appropriate place than the general Trump Presidency thread... The Senate Republicans didn't even try to follow the set rules, with no consequences from Roberts. Is there any way they could arrange to have the vote to convict/acquit taken when double digit numbers of Republicans are out in the hallway?
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598	Last edited by Cabbage; 23rd January 2020 at 08:01 AM. Reason: ETA: Ninjaed Again!

23rd January 2020, 08:09 AM	#144
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,453	Originally Posted by Belz... Why would roberts say anything? It's not like he has any real power here. Mmm. Perhaps I was wrong in thinking that the one presiding over the proceedings would be more than a flower pot.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

23rd January 2020, 08:17 AM	#145
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,678	Originally Posted by Belz... Why would roberts say anything? It's not like he has any real power here. Given that he also has to run the Supreme Court, it would be more productive for him to catch some zzz's during the Trial.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

23rd January 2020, 08:21 AM	#146
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,786	Originally Posted by Shalamar Do as I say, not as I do?

23rd January 2020, 10:02 AM	#147
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,252	Interesting twitter thread on a newly-filed FOIA request from the NYT re Ukraine documents, in which various claims of privilege are debunked
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

23rd January 2020, 10:04 AM	#148
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,252	https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...93490476371968 Quote: Highly notable stuff from @MZanona: Trump ally Rep. GAETZ praised Dems' use of multimedia, which he said gave their trial presentation a "cable news" feel ... Unlike the Trump team, whose presentation Gaetz said felt like “an 8th grade book report.” Article embedded in tweet. Notable because Gaetz was a full-on lapdog, but then got on the wrong side of Trump & the rest of the GOP. This could be an indicator that the split will increase from here on in.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

23rd January 2020, 10:10 AM	#149
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,440	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim https://twitter.com/kyledcheney/stat...93490476371968 Article embedded in tweet. Notable because Gaetz was a full-on lapdog, but then got on the wrong side of Trump & the rest of the GOP. This could be an indicator that the split will increase from here on in. What happened between him and Trump?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

23rd January 2020, 10:15 AM	#150
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,478	Originally Posted by Belz... What happened between him and Trump? Gaetz voted to limit his powers in the Middle East.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

23rd January 2020, 10:16 AM	#151
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,440	Originally Posted by plague311 Gaetz voted to limit his powers in the Middle East. Oops. Someone should have told him that this was a big no-no.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

23rd January 2020, 10:26 AM	#152
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,122	Originally Posted by Belz... Re: Why Congess Critter Gaetz is currently in Trump's doghouse... Quote: Gaetz voted to limit his powers in the Middle East. Oops. Someone should have told him that this was a big no-no. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...nt-team-102534 Yeah. I guess he thought he was supposed to be on Trump's impeachment defense team. Supposedly it was Trump's legislative Affairs Director Eric Ueland who pushed for him not to be included. This should serve as a warning to anyone who might want to support Trump: Loyalty is non-existent, and you can be dropped the moment it is politically expedient. Gaetz had been a pretty vocal pro-Trump supporter, and now he's on the outs. Of course, with Trump's track record of turning his back on allies, Gaetz shouldn't have been surprised.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

23rd January 2020, 10:49 AM	#153
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Of course, with Trump's track record of turning his back on allies, Gaetz shouldn't have been surprised. And yet Trump still has allies that believe it won't happen to them.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

23rd January 2020, 11:27 AM	#154
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,013	Originally Posted by plague311 I was pretty impressed with Schiff's delivery yesterday. It was repetitive but very clear. He did an outstanding job of using Trump's own words, pressers and statements against him to expose what he was doing. Everything was laid out in an easy to understand way. I find it hard to think the Dem's didn't have this as their plan all along. Schiff really, REALLY nailed home that the defense can't claim that what the House managers are saying is wrong because the defense is sitting on the evidence. If they want to prove the House wrong they can literally provide evidence any time they want without any issue at all. I thought it was great and really put the defense in a box. I agree. Schiff did a damn fine job of presenting the evidence. It was clear, organized and well supported. On the other hand, all the Repubs had is their typical rhetoric of "the Dems want to overturn the 2016 election" nonsense. It's pathetic.

23rd January 2020, 11:29 AM	#155
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,890	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken And yet Trump still has allies that believe it won't happen to them. It reminds me of that account: First they came for the (oppressed group) and I didn't say anything Then they came for the (other oppressed group) and I didn't say anything (continue for several iterations) They they came for me because there was no one else left.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.