China v India

[The Atheist]

Just what the world needs right now - another armed conflict!

While the peasants are preoccupied with Covid, let's start a scrap on the India - China border.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...sions-escalate

Appears to result from Modi throwing his weight around on borders, but Xi noticed and has responded.

[Trebuchet]

No worries, the Greatest of all Presidents has it under control!

ETA: And of course, he's entirely impartial!

[Susheel]

The Indian government responded to Trump's claim that he had communicated to Modi his offer to mediate with China. Their claim is that Trump has not been in touch with Modi since he had called in his "request" for Hydroxychloroquine. However, let's face it, neither of them can be trusted with telling the truth.

[theprestige]

Three days in, and the commentary is ORANGE MAN BAD. Is there even a China v India issue right now?

[Susheel]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Three days in, and the commentary is ORANGE MAN BAD. Is there even a China v India issue right now?

Well, why don't you leave it to us about how we discuss this topic. If you have something useful to contribute, please do.

[Susheel]

Currently, there is a lot of saber-rattling from either end. In India, Modi is facing questions regarding his inept handling of the COVID crisis, particularly with regard to the suffering of the migrant workers and daily wage earners. The knee-jerk decisions that have resulted in mass suffering and confusion that has been very difficult to hide. His media whores are currently working overtime to pass the buck on two fronts. Pakistan in the west and China in the east. There is a lot of chest-thumping and bombast from the Hindutva factions about marching to the border to defend the "motherland". Modi and the BJP are using the China crisis primarily as an opportunity to reaffirm his image as a strong macho leader.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Susheel

The Indian government responded to Trump's claim that he had communicated to Modi his offer to mediate with China. Their claim is that Trump has not been in touch with Modi since he had called in his "request" for Hydroxychloroquine. However, let's face it, neither of them can be trusted with telling the truth.

Haha! Like a pair of young lovers... "... but, he hasn't called me..."

Originally Posted by theprestige

Three days in, and the commentary is ORANGE MAN BAD. Is there even a China v India issue right now?

Holy crap, you give your game away entirely, don't you?

The discussion is about India v China. It was the orange clown who inserted himself into the story:

Quote:

On Wednesday Donald Trump waded into the heightened standoff, claiming that he had “informed both India and China that the United States is ready, willing and able to mediate or arbitrate their now raging border dispute”.

And yet, his claim seems to be all hot air. How astounding.

It's not Xi like would have any interest in him mediating, so he probably thought it was a safe thing to say, but the Indians have contradicted him. Leaving that out of the narrative would be akin to censorship.

Originally Posted by Susheel

Currently, there is a lot of saber-rattling from either end. In India, Modi is facing questions regarding his inept handling of the COVID crisis, particularly with regard to the suffering of the migrant workers and daily wage earners. The knee-jerk decisions that have resulted in mass suffering and confusion that has been very difficult to hide. His media whores are currently working overtime to pass the buck on two fronts. Pakistan in the west and China in the east. There is a lot of chest-thumping and bombast from the Hindutva factions about marching to the border to defend the "motherland". Modi and the BJP are using the China crisis primarily as an opportunity to reaffirm his image as a strong macho leader.

Yeah, it looked that way to me as well - a very convenient means of deflecting from his inability to actually lead the country.

I can understand the Pakistan border, where he feels he will always have the upper hand, but rattling China's cage isn't a smart move. He obviously thinks he knows how far he can push before Xi throws some missiles his way. I hope he's right or a lot of poor saps in the Indian army will pay for it.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Holy crap, you give your game away entirely, don't you?

The discussion is about India v China. It was the orange clown who inserted himself into the story:

I'm saying his self-insertion is probably the least interesting and least important part of the story.

Troop movements. Demands. Border clashes. Rubicons*. These things, to me, are important. They're the signs and signals of the actual conflict and its likely outcome. Trump saying something stupid about it on the other side of the world doesn't really matter.

My "game" is that if Trump's offer to mediate really is the most consequential aspect of this thing - and it does seem to be, since nobody's really talking about that other stuff - then the entire affair is probably pretty inconsequential.

Or maybe it is consequential, but it's hard to break away from OMB long enough to look at and discuss consequential things like troop movements and border clashes.

Either way, setting aside Trump's inconsequential (in my opinion) efforts, is anything of consequence happening on the border right now?

---
*In the sense of escalating acts that force the other side to also escalate, and make it more difficult to then de-escalate.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm saying ....

More, unnecessary, comments about your leader.

But its' everyone else who's obsessed with him...

[The Atheist]

Meanwhile, in the real world, high up in the roof of the world, it looks like both sides are taking things a little more seriously: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/76123257.cms

How reliable that report is, I have no idea and impartial news is pretty hard to find.

BBC has this, which merely confirms the conflicting stories about who started it: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52852509

While Indian nationalists are heaping blame on Xi and side with USA: https://indianexpress.com/article/op...desai-6435036/

On the flip side, China isn't even mentioning it, with Xinhuanet having this as their only non-Covid story from India over the past week: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/asi..._139103147.htm

Maybe a subtle reference to Modi? Not a word about the border, and they're clearly aware India is thumping its drum on the subject.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

More, unnecessary, comments about your leader.

But its' everyone else who's obsessed with him...

It's not me who brought him up and keeps defending his focus here. I came to the thread to see what was being discussed about the China v India thing. Apparently what's being discussed about the China v India thing is... Donald Trump, for some reason.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Meanwhile, in the real world, high up in the roof of the world, it looks like both sides are taking things a little more seriously: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/76123257.cms

How reliable that report is, I have no idea and impartial news is pretty hard to find.

BBC has this, which merely confirms the conflicting stories about who started it: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52852509

While Indian nationalists are heaping blame on Xi and side with USA: https://indianexpress.com/article/op...desai-6435036/

On the flip side, China isn't even mentioning it, with Xinhuanet having this as their only non-Covid story from India over the past week: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/asi..._139103147.htm

Maybe a subtle reference to Modi? Not a word about the border, and they're clearly aware India is thumping its drum on the subject.

Now we're talking!

[Susheel]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

... I hope he's right or a lot of poor saps in the Indian army will pay for it.

For the current administration, Army fatalities are just fodder for the excessive nationalistic jingoism they can indulge in. The only soldier the BJP loves is a dead soldier that they can use to stoke a very regressive form of hate-based nationalism. My bigger concern is for my fellow countrymen in the north-eastern states who are already victims of racial prejudice---invectives used against them include---chinki, junglee and more recently corona. During the early stages of the current pandemic, there were sporadic instances of violent behavior against people from the north-east as they became the target of the "mainland" Indians as they were seen as being responsible for the spread of the "China virus" because of their features.
However, the pro-BJP media are primarily focusing on some dubious threats from Pakistan which included news reports of a pigeon suspected of being a spy and locusts seen as some kind of bio-weapon sent in by Pakistan. The primary strategy seems to be to divert the public's attention from what is happening in the borders in the north east.
The general consensus seems to be that Modi is not really keen to take on China since the economic welfare of many of his corporate lackeys depend on the relationship with China. In fact, China had a major role in the construction of the "pride" of the BJP government...the tallest statue in South Asia erected in Gujarat.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Susheel

For the current administration, Army fatalities are just fodder for the excessive nationalistic jingoism they can indulge in.

As they always have been.

Originally Posted by Susheel

However, the pro-BJP media are primarily focusing on some dubious threats from Pakistan which included news reports of a pigeon suspected of being a spy and locusts seen as some kind of bio-weapon sent in by Pakistan.

Haha! Yeah, I read about the pigeon.

Have the interrogated it yet?

Originally Posted by Susheel

The general consensus seems to be that Modi is not really keen to take on China since the economic welfare of many of his corporate lackeys depend on the relationship with China. In fact, China had a major role in the construction of the "pride" of the BJP government...the tallest statue in South Asia erected in Gujarat.

Dollar diplomacy works.

It looks like China are happy to let Modi rattle away with his sabre at the moment. As long as no shots are fired across the border I imagine Xi has much bigger fish to fry.

[dudalb]

And what exactly are they fighting over? I don't think the land in disute is of much value, either economically or strategically.
One is reminded of o Voltaire's famous comment on the French and Indian War; "France and England are going to war over a few acres of snow".

[Susheel]

Originally Posted by dudalb

And what exactly are they fighting over? I don't think the land in disute is of much value, either economically or strategically.
One is reminded of o Voltaire's famous comment on the French and Indian War; "France and England are going to war over a few acres of snow".

Ego. In India, particularly, Modi needs something to divert the public's attention from his government's incompetent handling of the COVID pandemic. I guess there are similar issues for Xi in China too.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by dudalb

And what exactly are they fighting over?

There may or may not have been some Chinese soldiers who trespassed on Indian soil.

Originally Posted by Susheel

Ego. In India, particularly, Modi needs something to divert the public's attention from his government's incompetent handling of the COVID pandemic. I guess there are similar issues for Xi in China too.

I'm not sure Xi needs it, and the lack of media coverage in China tends to confirm that.

I see they've agreed to talks rather than fighting - the perfect result for Modi & BJP. They can sell it as China backing down and thump their chests some more.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...201117199.html

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

There may or may not have been some Chinese soldiers who trespassed on Indian soil.



I'm not sure Xi needs it, and the lack of media coverage in China tends to confirm that.

I see they've agreed to talks rather than fighting - the perfect result for Modi & BJP. They can sell it as China backing down and thump their chests some more.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...201117199.html

I feel like this is the perfect result for everybody. Talks are better than fighting.

I'm sure you wouldn't want China to escalate, just to keep Modi from saving face.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by theprestige

I feel like this is the perfect result for everybody. Talks are better than fighting.

I have said that many, many times.

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm sure you wouldn't want China to escalate, just to keep Modi from saving face.

Correct.

I also think there's not an ice-cream's chance in hell Modi would try to actually escalate anything with China anyway - he is outclassed by an order of magnitude these days.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I also think there's not an ice-cream's chance in hell Modi would try to actually escalate anything with China anyway - he is outclassed by an order of magnitude these days.

Heh. Sounds like I was right about it being a nothingburger.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Heh. Sounds like I was right about it being a nothingburger.

It always will be when it comes to China, because India will never catch up.

Modi will stick to throwing his weight around where the opposition have sticks & stones - Kashmir.

[The Atheist]

The border dispute enters a new phase, and it's killing thousands of kids!

(Goat kids, that is)

[theprestige]

And to think I was worried about another serious military flare-up in the world.

[The Atheist]

Susheel nailed it straight away - Modi playing to his fan base.

As soon as China came along with a couple of extra divisions, he pulled back.

[Susheel]

Right now, in the midst of the pandemic, the BJP is primarily focusing on the run up to the elections in the state of Bihar. mIllions being spent on campaign rallies. The rhetoric being engineered is that Modi has averted the border crisis through sheer Hindu masculinity.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Susheel

The rhetoric being engineered is that Modi has averted the border crisis through sheer Hindu masculinity.

Quite bizarre that cults of toxic masculinity are happy to be led by someone who's the exact opposite of a strong man.

Modi's a short-arse weed, Trump's a draft-dodging coward, and a military tribunal had this to say about Bolsonaro:

Quote:

According to this board, Bolsonaro had a "serious personality deviation and a professional deformation", "lack of moral courage to leave the Army" and "lied throughout the process"

I can then add in a few famous corporals who rose to power, and looks like there's some weird defect in the kind of people who follow them.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Susheel nailed it straight away - Modi playing to his fan base.

As soon as China came along with a couple of extra divisions, he pulled back.

Susheel and I both. Your OP made it sound a lot more serious.

[theheno]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Susheel and I both. Your OP made it sound a lot more serious.

Ahh OK you can have some of the glory. Well done

[Susheel]

Well, it's now Nepal. They have recently redrawn the borders and the new map which will be officially endorsed by the Parliament. There were firings by the Nepal police at the border in which one Indian was killed and several others injured. Seems like our neighbours have realised the underneath that fat suit Modi wears, there is actually self centred snivelling rat. The problem began when the BJP in India began to infiltrate the hindu polity in Nepal to sow seeds of radicalism and fundamentalism during the first year of Modi's tenure in 2014. Nepal has more or less cold shouldered India since then.

[The Atheist]

Modi's ambitions remind me of English generals on the western front in WWI - taking over enemy territory one square foot at a time.

Modi does realise who Nepal is best mates with these days?

[Chanakya]

Countries, people, get the government the deserve. To bring in another cliche, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me! India elected Modi not once but twice. What does that say about the people of India?

You don't get a Trump -- not twice, at any rate -- unless something's seriously broken somewhere.

Back in India: Who's representative, and who the anomaly? Gandhi, or this megalomaniac?

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Back in India: Who's representative, and who the anomaly? Gandhi, or this megalomaniac?

Susheel will give you a better analysis, but as I see it, Modi and the current place the BJP sits in are direct descendants of the people who assassinated Gandhi. Like USA, it's a situation that has been decades in the making.

Swap BJP for the Republicans and Modi for Trump and you'd never know the difference.

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

there's not an ice-cream's chance in hell Modi would try to actually escalate anything with China anyway - he is outclassed by an order of magnitude these days.

That's what Xi said.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Three days in, and the commentary is ORANGE MAN BAD. Is there even a China v India issue right now?

Yes, I agree. "Orange man bad" is immaterial. After all, we all know that.

As for China and India, I think none of them have much interest in a serious conflict, but both can use a bit of diversion from domestic issues.

Hans

[Manger Douse]

Indian soldiers killed in clash with Chinese forces:

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-a....co/7t7wfV4Fa6

[The Atheist]

But no shots were fired.

Looks like the Chinese have loaded the front with 14k Triad.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

Indian soldiers killed in clash with Chinese forces:

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-a....co/7t7wfV4Fa6

It was inevitible. When you have these border incidents constantly, someone is going to get killed.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by dudalb

And what exactly are they fighting over? I don't think the land in disute is of much value, either economically or strategically.
One is reminded of o Voltaire's famous comment on the French and Indian War; "France and England are going to war over a few acres of snow".

Voltaire sounds like an ass. France and England were fighting over access to a literal New World of vast wealth to be exploited.

[Susheel]

The Modi government is in silent mode and heavily downplaying the situation. They initially denied the casualties and then went on to admit to a couple, and have now settled on 20. Of course "you should have seen the other guy". One media channel held the army personnel posted at the border to task and tried to divert any responsibility from the government. This resulted in a huge backlash on twitter against the channel.
The ModiSha duo are currently like the monkey clutching at a fist full of nuts (the state elections in Bihar) in a narrow necked jar. They don't want to let go of the nuts arranged at humungous cost and effort, to deal with the situation at the border.

[The Atheist]

Excellent post, mate - from the metaphor to the description of the action.