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Old 9th December 2020, 12:45 AM   #3161
Aridas
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Also, from Katie Porter -

Quote:
When I came to Congress, I knew I had a responsibility to pull back the curtain for the American people and expose corruption in real time. So, I’m filling you in on Senator McConnell’s attempts over the last 8 days to tank a *bipartisan* COVID relief bill. (THREAD)

You may have heard that Democrats and Republicans have agreed upon spending $900 billion to fund another round of small business loans, support hospitals and essential workers, and help the 10 million people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own. (2/5)

Everyone at the negotiating table—including Senate Rs—has agreed to a compromise. Except one. Mitch McConnell is refusing to bring it to the floor unless it wipes away all COVID-related lawsuits filed that “allege injury or death” due to corporate negligence. (3/5)

These lawsuits represent the worst of the worst examples of disregard for human life—cases filed on behalf of nursing home patients and grocery store workers who died because the company in charge of keeping them safe prioritized cutting costs over protecting them. (4/5)

The same McConnell who said that President Trump is “100% within his rights” to pursue baseless lawsuits alleging election fraud is now refusing to pass urgently-needed relief unless it strips those same rights from the most vulnerable among us. This must be exposed. (5/5)
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Old 9th December 2020, 07:21 AM   #3162
Captain_Swoop
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Trump Tweets

Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!!
Quote Tweet

Ciarán Ó Fathaigh
@Spudnikus
Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day.
@AP #coronavirus Microbe
https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2
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Old 9th December 2020, 07:53 AM   #3163
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!!
Quote Tweet

Ciarán Ó Fathaigh
@Spudnikus
Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day.
@AP #coronavirus Microbe
https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2
Umm .. according to google, the US just had around 2500 deaths. Given the differences in population, Germany still has fewer daily deaths per capita than the states (even though Germany is hitting record highs).

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Old 9th December 2020, 11:03 AM   #3164
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Rep. Jim Jordan tweets

@Jim_Jordan

The WHO now recommends against hugging over the holidays.
Like we said last week, pretty soon you won’t be able to say Merry Christmas.
Jesus Christ, what is it with these morons and their sophomoric, kneejerk obsession with "you won't be allowed to say Merry Christmas!" that they have to shoehorn it into every single conversation, whether if fits or not? Jordan acts like there's just some sort of natural progression from a WHO recommendation against physical contract- something they've been advising against for months now- to them forbidding saying something damn near everyone says anyway, and that has no bearing at all on the spread of a virus. It's not a logical sequence, it's a non-sequitur for ninnies to gasp "I know, right?!" over.
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Old 9th December 2020, 11:11 AM   #3165
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LOL Trump doesn't know the difference between 15 million and 15%. No wonder he files for bankruptcy so often.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/52...ful-vaccine-in

Quote:
President Trump claimed on Tuesday that the U.S. was “close to 15 percent” immunity, appearing to support the idea of developing herd immunity to combat the coronavirus, an idea health experts have widely disputed as dangerous.
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Old 9th December 2020, 12:36 PM   #3166
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
LOL Trump doesn't know the difference between 15 million and 15%. No wonder he files for bankruptcy so often.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/52...ful-vaccine-in
That's 15M cases. A large number were asymptomatic or had extremely minor symptoms and never tested. That's likely 3x or more the number of cases. 15% is in line with CDC estimates. Trump's problem is that the current, broad, increase in cases, even in states that had particularly high deaths of close to .2% of the population and NPIs in place, indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping.
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Old 9th December 2020, 03:21 PM   #3167
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And that was by far the most cases ever on a Sunday.

Seven-day averages are a better metric than daily, due to weekend reporting delays and weekdays catching up. I've been tracking Worldometer since the beginning.
Current 7-day average is 2237 deaths and 198,502 new cases.

But hey, it's just a flu! And we're turning the corner, oh, so fast!
What's missing is... how people contracted the disease... cases are not pertinent unless you provide a filter and that filter is "how many people contracted Covid-19".
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Old 9th December 2020, 03:58 PM   #3168
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We have a thread for that, Aridas.
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Old 9th December 2020, 06:55 PM   #3169
Resume
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From Worldometer:

Quote:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
15,820,042
Deaths:
296,698

New Cases:
225,441
New Deaths:
3,243

Last edited by Resume; 9th December 2020 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 9th December 2020, 06:59 PM   #3170
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That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?
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Old 9th December 2020, 07:08 PM   #3171
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?
170k was... back in August, on a quick check.
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Old 9th December 2020, 07:09 PM   #3172
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?
Here is the link to worldometers /coronavirus with the 296,698 USA deaths tally.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
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Old 9th December 2020, 07:19 PM   #3173
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?
You appear to be VERY far behind.
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Old 9th December 2020, 08:25 PM   #3174
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Also, from Katie Porter -
Quote:
...The same McConnell who said that President Trump is “100% within his rights” to pursue baseless lawsuits alleging election fraud is now refusing to pass urgently-needed relief unless it strips those same rights from the most vulnerable among us. This must be exposed. (5/5)
That is such a good point and he is one of the most despicable people on the planet.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 9th December 2020 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 9th December 2020, 08:49 PM   #3175
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That is such a good point and he is one of the most despicable people on the planet.
That is a very good point. There is definitely a selective mind frame to litigious attitudes in the US. I normally don't think on it but it is definitely accepted based on class and income. Every major company or wealthy individual will be involved in multiple* lawsuits and it is accepted while those at the bottom tier are looked down on for doing the same.
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Old 9th December 2020, 11:53 PM   #3176
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Jesus Christ, what is it with these morons and their sophomoric, kneejerk obsession with "you won't be allowed to say Merry Christmas!" that they have to shoehorn it into every single conversation, whether if fits or not? Jordan acts like there's just some sort of natural progression from a WHO recommendation against physical contract- something they've been advising against for months now- to them forbidding saying something damn near everyone says anyway, and that has no bearing at all on the spread of a virus. It's not a logical sequence, it's a non-sequitur for ninnies to gasp "I know, right?!" over.
Jim Jordan has my vote for one of the Most Stupid Members of Congress right up there with John Kennedy, Louie Gohmert, and Matt Gaetz.
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Old 10th December 2020, 04:33 AM   #3177
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
...indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping.
I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic.
Quote:
Curious as to whether herd immunity against the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) might slow the spread of the disease? Understand how herd immunity works and what experts are saying about its potential impact on the COVID-19 pandemic...What percentage of a community needs to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity? It varies from disease to disease...For example, the measles is a highly contagious illness. It's estimated that 94% of the population must be immune to interrupt the chain of transmission.

A vaccine for the virus that causes COVID-19 would be an ideal approach to achieving herd immunity...Herd immunity can also be reached when a sufficient number of people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed antibodies against future infection. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection...Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. Mayo Clinic link
I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public.

No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?
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Old 10th December 2020, 05:24 AM   #3178
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic.


I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public.

No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?
It's hard to argue this isn't the strategy we largely ended up going with.

Half measures slowed the spread compared to just doing nothing and letting it rip through the country, but we never committed to the serious countermeasures that actually would have controlled spread and we have the massive death count to show for it.

There's uncontrolled spread in every state now, and there doesn't seem to be any political will to do anything to stop that other than waiting for the vaccine.
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Old 10th December 2020, 05:49 AM   #3179
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?


Yeah, they don't seem to get that, even if we "officially" did nothing, the sensible 50% of the public would still have been doing things like social distancing and staying home as much as possible. The economic damage wouldn't have been as bad, but if 50% of the population is voluntarily limiting their daily activities, the economy is still going to crash.

They honestly seem to think that people only did any of that because they were ordered to. That pisses me off. I'm not following the government, they're following me! Me, and a heck of a lot of my friends, were cancelling things and wearing masks while the government was still dithering about what to do, because we actually understood the issues at hand. I decided I was doing exclusively work at home at least 5 days before that became the official order.
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Old 10th December 2020, 01:46 PM   #3180
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
That's 15M cases. A large number were asymptomatic or had extremely minor symptoms and never tested. That's likely 3x or more the number of cases. 15% is in line with CDC estimates. Trump's problem is that the current, broad, increase in cases, even in states that had particularly high deaths of close to .2% of the population and NPIs in place, indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping.
While many cases were missed early on due to lack of testing I see no evidence to support the suggestion only 1/3 of actual cases have been identified. IMO since May nearly 100% of symptomatic cases have been identified and most asymptomatic cases have been identified because the people involved knew they had been exposed.
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Old 10th December 2020, 02:09 PM   #3181
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic.


I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public.

No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?
For an R0 of 2.5 the nominal percentage of the population needed of herd immunity is ~40%. The catch is that when you achieve herd immunity by letting the infection run rampant when you reach the herd immunity threshold you are still only half way wrt total infections.

At 40% infection rates R drops below 1 (aka herd immunity) but this doesn't magically stop new infections. New infections are a function of both R and the current number of infections, which is VERY high at that point if you let the infection run rampant. By the time the number of new infections is back near zero you have twice as many as when you did the day R dropped below 1.
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Old 10th December 2020, 03:42 PM   #3182
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's hard to argue this isn't the strategy we largely ended up going with.

Half measures slowed the spread compared to just doing nothing and letting it rip through the country, but we never committed to the serious countermeasures that actually would have controlled spread and we have the massive death count to show for it.

There's uncontrolled spread in every state now, and there doesn't seem to be any political will to do anything to stop that other than waiting for the vaccine.
I think that, by and large, the federal response was very close to doing nothing. it was at a large cost of life, but also a large political cost. and there wasn't any gains either
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Old 10th December 2020, 06:42 PM   #3183
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Rudy thinks his COVID treatment/protocol is affordable/available for most Americans, plays down necessity for masking/social distancing.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Rudy Giuliani Clueless, Thinks Everyone Can Get His COVID Treatment
Is he stupid, or just a cynical old ****?

Last edited by Resume; 10th December 2020 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 06:58 PM   #3184
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!!
Quote Tweet

Ciarán Ó Fathaigh
@Spudnikus
Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day.
@AP #coronavirus Microbe
https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Umm .. according to google, the US just had around 2500 deaths. Given the differences in population, Germany still has fewer daily deaths per capita than the states (even though Germany is hitting record highs).

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
The incontinent incompetent in the WH neglects to mention that Germany's death per 100,000 is 24 compared with 87 for the U.S.
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Old 10th December 2020, 07:03 PM   #3185
Resume
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From Worldometer:
Quote:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
16,039,393
Deaths:
299,692

New Cases:
217,779
New Deaths:
2,974
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Old 10th December 2020, 07:04 PM   #3186
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Double

Last edited by Resume; 10th December 2020 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 07:51 PM   #3187
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Rudy thinks his COVID treatment/protocol is affordable/available for most Americans, plays down necessity for masking/social distancing.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Rudy Giuliani Clueless, Thinks Everyone Can Get His COVID Treatment
Is he stupid, or just a cynical old ****?
False dichotomy!
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Old 10th December 2020, 09:50 PM   #3188
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Rudy thinks his COVID treatment/protocol is affordable/available for most Americans, plays down necessity for masking/social distancing.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Rudy Giuliani Clueless, Thinks Everyone Can Get His COVID Treatment
Is he stupid, or just a cynical old ****?

Can there be any doubt that the rich and powerful literally have no idea how most people live, and probably more so in the U.S. than in many countries?

Last edited by Bob001; 10th December 2020 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 10:19 PM   #3189
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Here's another Rudy report from Chris Hayes on MSNBC:

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Much as that disgusts me it does point out one problem when assessing the studies of the effectiveness of these drugs. They work when given early. They don't do much once the virus has done a lot of damage.

Other antivirals are similar: influenza and herpes are both helped if the antivirals are given soon after infection. A lot of providers were misled by studies that didn't see much effect when these drugs were given after 72 hours into the infection. When it turned out the drugs were effective if given in the first 48 hours and better if given in the first 24 hours, a lot of providers had to be convinced to let go of their initial impression of the drug.

I fear that is going on with studies of these drugs.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 10th December 2020 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 10th December 2020, 11:42 PM   #3190
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Much as that disgusts me it does point out one problem when assessing the studies of the effectiveness of these drugs. They work when given early. They don't do much once the virus has done a lot of damage.
Any studies showing that is true in this case?
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Old 11th December 2020, 05:20 AM   #3191
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Trump Tweets

The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so!

While my pushing the money drenched but heavily bureaucratic @US_FDA saved five years in the approval of NUMEROUS great new vaccines, it is still a big, old, slow turtle. Get the dam vaccines out NOW, Dr. Hahn @SteveFDA. Stop playing games and start saving lives!!!
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Old 11th December 2020, 05:23 AM   #3192
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Trump Tweets

The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so!

While my pushing the money drenched but heavily bureaucratic @US_FDA saved five years in the approval of NUMEROUS great new vaccines, it is still a big, old, slow turtle. Get the dam vaccines out NOW, Dr. Hahn @SteveFDA. Stop playing games and start saving lives!!!
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Old 11th December 2020, 06:15 AM   #3193
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so!

Exactly who is he quoting there? Himself, I'm assuming.
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Old 11th December 2020, 06:27 AM   #3194
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Exactly who is he quoting there? Himself, I'm assuming.
Yes, it's him attempting to insinuate himself into the process of medical science doing what it does best, and attributing it to a miracle rather than hard work and due diligence. Which is galling because not only did he have absolutely zero to do with the vaccine and is trying to bogart the credit, but he has also repeatedly disparaged science when it doesn't validate whatever idiotic notion running around in that vacant noggin of his at any given moment.

In other words, it's just another Trump con.


ETA: Not to mention his downplaying of the pandemic, and his poor leadership that led to needless death.

Or in other words, another Trump con.

Last edited by Resume; 11th December 2020 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 11th December 2020, 07:57 AM   #3195
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I just did a search for the phrase, and the only thing that comes up is Trump's Tweet. He was throwing quotation marks around the phrase to make it look like someone else was praising his efforts. Maybe he was quoting John Barron.
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Old 11th December 2020, 08:37 AM   #3196
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Donald J. Trump tweeted

“Donald Trump must get the credit for the vaccines. It is a miracle.”
@Varneyco
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Old 11th December 2020, 08:41 AM   #3197
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Any studies showing that is true in this case?
Anecdotally and the manufacturer's directions to give it to people before they are sick enough to need O2.

My issue is not that this has been proved (it has been demonstrated anecdotally). My issue is seeing a number of sources claiming the drugs have no effect because they didn't prevent seriously ill persons from dying.
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Old 11th December 2020, 09:46 AM   #3198
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Anecdotally and the manufacturer's directions to give it to people before they are sick enough to need O2.



My issue is not that this has been proved (it has been demonstrated anecdotally). My issue is seeing a number of sources claiming the drugs have no effect because they didn't prevent seriously ill persons from dying.
Until there's more than anecdotes, it is proper to say "no effect."

Exceptions prove rules.

What this means is if it is given to a patient, there had better be an explanation for why that (potentially) a review board of fellow doctors would agree made sense at that time, with the information that was available.

This is a sensible way of approaching medical best practices. Rules exist for standard procedure (and can be updated), while allowing for specific circumstances, while also insuring that questionable (or outright poor) decisions can be challenged, disciplined, learned from, and added to the data.
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Old 11th December 2020, 09:51 AM   #3199
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Donald J. Trump tweeted

“Donald Trump must get the credit for the vaccines. It is a miracle.”
@Varneyco
No it isn't, and no he shouldn't.
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Old 11th December 2020, 10:24 AM   #3200
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YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

CNN Goes Inside Hospital Trump Called 'Fake' and 'A Scam'
Yeah, they should name the vaccine after Trump all right. Trump tweets while first responders toil and record numbers die. We really do need a Trump vaccine; one that protects us from him.


Mod InfoThread continues here.
Posted By:zooterkin

Last edited by zooterkin; 11th December 2020 at 03:29 PM.
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