[Continuation] The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2 - Page 80

Aridas · 9th December 2020, 12:45 AM

Also, from Katie Porter -

Quote:

When I came to Congress, I knew I had a responsibility to pull back the curtain for the American people and expose corruption in real time. So, I’m filling you in on Senator McConnell’s attempts over the last 8 days to tank a *bipartisan* COVID relief bill. (THREAD)

You may have heard that Democrats and Republicans have agreed upon spending $900 billion to fund another round of small business loans, support hospitals and essential workers, and help the 10 million people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own. (2/5)

Everyone at the negotiating table—including Senate Rs—has agreed to a compromise. Except one. Mitch McConnell is refusing to bring it to the floor unless it wipes away all COVID-related lawsuits filed that “allege injury or death” due to corporate negligence. (3/5)

These lawsuits represent the worst of the worst examples of disregard for human life—cases filed on behalf of nursing home patients and grocery store workers who died because the company in charge of keeping them safe prioritized cutting costs over protecting them. (4/5)

The same McConnell who said that President Trump is “100% within his rights” to pursue baseless lawsuits alleging election fraud is now refusing to pass urgently-needed relief unless it strips those same rights from the most vulnerable among us. This must be exposed. (5/5)

Captain_Swoop · 9th December 2020, 07:21 AM

Trump Tweets

Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!!
Quote Tweet

Ciarán Ó Fathaigh
@Spudnikus
Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day.
@AP #coronavirus Microbe
https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2

Segnosaur · 9th December 2020, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!!
Quote Tweet

Ciarán Ó Fathaigh
@Spudnikus
Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day.
@AP #coronavirus Microbe
https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2

Umm .. according to google, the US just had around 2500 deaths. Given the differences in population, Germany still has fewer daily deaths per capita than the states (even though Germany is hitting record highs).

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

turingtest · 9th December 2020, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Rep. Jim Jordan tweets

@Jim_Jordan

The WHO now recommends against hugging over the holidays.
Like we said last week, pretty soon you won’t be able to say Merry Christmas.

Jesus Christ, what is it with these morons and their sophomoric, kneejerk obsession with "you won't be allowed to say Merry Christmas!" that they have to shoehorn it into every single conversation, whether if fits or not? Jordan acts like there's just some sort of natural progression from a WHO recommendation against physical contract- something they've been advising against for months now- to them forbidding saying something damn near everyone says anyway, and that has no bearing at all on the spread of a virus. It's not a logical sequence, it's a non-sequitur for ninnies to gasp "I know, right?!" over.

lomiller · 9th December 2020, 11:11 AM

LOL Trump doesn't know the difference between 15 million and 15%. No wonder he files for bankruptcy so often.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/52...ful-vaccine-in

Quote:

President Trump claimed on Tuesday that the U.S. was “close to 15 percent” immunity, appearing to support the idea of developing herd immunity to combat the coronavirus, an idea health experts have widely disputed as dangerous.

marting · 9th December 2020, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

LOL Trump doesn't know the difference between 15 million and 15%. No wonder he files for bankruptcy so often.

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/52...ful-vaccine-in

That's 15M cases. A large number were asymptomatic or had extremely minor symptoms and never tested. That's likely 3x or more the number of cases. 15% is in line with CDC estimates. Trump's problem is that the current, broad, increase in cases, even in states that had particularly high deaths of close to .2% of the population and NPIs in place, indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping.

No Other · 9th December 2020, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

And that was by far the most cases ever on a Sunday.

Seven-day averages are a better metric than daily, due to weekend reporting delays and weekdays catching up. I've been tracking Worldometer since the beginning.
Current 7-day average is 2237 deaths and 198,502 new cases.

But hey, it's just a flu! And we're turning the corner, oh, so fast!

What's missing is... how people contracted the disease... cases are not pertinent unless you provide a filter and that filter is "how many people contracted Covid-19".

Skeptic Ginger · 9th December 2020, 03:58 PM

We have a thread for that, Aridas.

Resume · 9th December 2020, 06:55 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
15,820,042
Deaths:
296,698

New Cases:
225,441
New Deaths:
3,243

Silly Green Monkey · 9th December 2020, 06:59 PM

That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?

Aridas · 9th December 2020, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?

170k was... back in August, on a quick check.

Matthew Ellard · 9th December 2020, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?

Here is the link to worldometers /coronavirus with the 296,698 USA deaths tally.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Trebuchet · 9th December 2020, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?

You appear to be VERY far behind.

Skeptic Ginger · 9th December 2020, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Also, from Katie Porter -

Quote:

...The same McConnell who said that President Trump is “100% within his rights” to pursue baseless lawsuits alleging election fraud is now refusing to pass urgently-needed relief unless it strips those same rights from the most vulnerable among us. This must be exposed. (5/5)

That is such a good point and he is one of the most despicable people on the planet.

rdwight · 9th December 2020, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That is such a good point and he is one of the most despicable people on the planet.

That is a very good point. There is definitely a selective mind frame to litigious attitudes in the US. I normally don't think on it but it is definitely accepted based on class and income. Every major company or wealthy individual will be involved in multiple* lawsuits and it is accepted while those at the bottom tier are looked down on for doing the same.

Stacyhs · 9th December 2020, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by turingtest

Jesus Christ, what is it with these morons and their sophomoric, kneejerk obsession with "you won't be allowed to say Merry Christmas!" that they have to shoehorn it into every single conversation, whether if fits or not? Jordan acts like there's just some sort of natural progression from a WHO recommendation against physical contract- something they've been advising against for months now- to them forbidding saying something damn near everyone says anyway, and that has no bearing at all on the spread of a virus. It's not a logical sequence, it's a non-sequitur for ninnies to gasp "I know, right?!" over.

Jim Jordan has my vote for one of the Most Stupid Members of Congress right up there with John Kennedy, Louie Gohmert, and Matt Gaetz.

newyorkguy · 10th December 2020, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by marting

...indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping.

I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic.

Quote:

Curious as to whether herd immunity against the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) might slow the spread of the disease? Understand how herd immunity works and what experts are saying about its potential impact on the COVID-19 pandemic...What percentage of a community needs to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity? It varies from disease to disease...For example, the measles is a highly contagious illness. It's estimated that 94% of the population must be immune to interrupt the chain of transmission.

A vaccine for the virus that causes COVID-19 would be an ideal approach to achieving herd immunity...Herd immunity can also be reached when a sufficient number of people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed antibodies against future infection. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection...Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. Mayo Clinic link

I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public.

No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?

SuburbanTurkey · 10th December 2020, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic.

I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public.

No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?

It's hard to argue this isn't the strategy we largely ended up going with.

Half measures slowed the spread compared to just doing nothing and letting it rip through the country, but we never committed to the serious countermeasures that actually would have controlled spread and we have the massive death count to show for it.

There's uncontrolled spread in every state now, and there doesn't seem to be any political will to do anything to stop that other than waiting for the vaccine.

Horatius · 10th December 2020, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?

Yeah, they don't seem to get that, even if we "officially" did nothing, the sensible 50% of the public would still have been doing things like social distancing and staying home as much as possible. The economic damage wouldn't have been as bad, but if 50% of the population is voluntarily limiting their daily activities, the economy is still going to crash.

They honestly seem to think that people only did any of that because they were ordered to. That pisses me off. I'm not following the government, they're following me! Me, and a heck of a lot of my friends, were cancelling things and wearing masks while the government was still dithering about what to do, because we actually understood the issues at hand. I decided I was doing exclusively work at home at least 5 days before that became the official order.

lomiller · 10th December 2020, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by marting

That's 15M cases. A large number were asymptomatic or had extremely minor symptoms and never tested. That's likely 3x or more the number of cases. 15% is in line with CDC estimates. Trump's problem is that the current, broad, increase in cases, even in states that had particularly high deaths of close to .2% of the population and NPIs in place, indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping.

While many cases were missed early on due to lack of testing I see no evidence to support the suggestion only 1/3 of actual cases have been identified. IMO since May nearly 100% of symptomatic cases have been identified and most asymptomatic cases have been identified because the people involved knew they had been exposed.

lomiller · 10th December 2020, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic.

I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public.

No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?

For an R0 of 2.5 the nominal percentage of the population needed of herd immunity is ~40%. The catch is that when you achieve herd immunity by letting the infection run rampant when you reach the herd immunity threshold you are still only half way wrt total infections.

At 40% infection rates R drops below 1 (aka herd immunity) but this doesn't magically stop new infections. New infections are a function of both R and the current number of infections, which is VERY high at that point if you let the infection run rampant. By the time the number of new infections is back near zero you have twice as many as when you did the day R dropped below 1.

dirtywick · 10th December 2020, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

It's hard to argue this isn't the strategy we largely ended up going with.

Half measures slowed the spread compared to just doing nothing and letting it rip through the country, but we never committed to the serious countermeasures that actually would have controlled spread and we have the massive death count to show for it.

There's uncontrolled spread in every state now, and there doesn't seem to be any political will to do anything to stop that other than waiting for the vaccine.

I think that, by and large, the federal response was very close to doing nothing. it was at a large cost of life, but also a large political cost. and there wasn't any gains either

Resume · 10th December 2020, 06:42 PM

Rudy thinks his COVID treatment/protocol is affordable/available for most Americans, plays down necessity for masking/social distancing.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Rudy Giuliani Clueless, Thinks Everyone Can Get His COVID Treatment
Is he stupid, or just a cynical old ****?

Resume · 10th December 2020, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!!
Quote Tweet

Ciarán Ó Fathaigh
@Spudnikus
Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day.
@AP #coronavirus Microbe
https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Umm .. according to google, the US just had around 2500 deaths. Given the differences in population, Germany still has fewer daily deaths per capita than the states (even though Germany is hitting record highs).

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

The incontinent incompetent in the WH neglects to mention that Germany's death per 100,000 is 24 compared with 87 for the U.S.

Resume · 10th December 2020, 07:03 PM

From Worldometer:

Quote:

United States
Coronavirus Cases:
16,039,393
Deaths:
299,692

New Cases:
217,779
New Deaths:
2,974

Resume · 10th December 2020, 07:04 PM

Double

Trebuchet · 10th December 2020, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

Rudy thinks his COVID treatment/protocol is affordable/available for most Americans, plays down necessity for masking/social distancing.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Rudy Giuliani Clueless, Thinks Everyone Can Get His COVID Treatment
Is he stupid, or just a cynical old ****?

False dichotomy!

Bob001 · 10th December 2020, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

Rudy thinks his COVID treatment/protocol is affordable/available for most Americans, plays down necessity for masking/social distancing.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Rudy Giuliani Clueless, Thinks Everyone Can Get His COVID Treatment
Is he stupid, or just a cynical old ****?

Can there be any doubt that the rich and powerful literally have no idea how most people live, and probably more so in the U.S. than in many countries?

Skeptic Ginger · 10th December 2020, 10:19 PM

Here's another Rudy report from Chris Hayes on MSNBC:

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I AGREE

Much as that disgusts me it does point out one problem when assessing the studies of the effectiveness of these drugs. They work when given early. They don't do much once the virus has done a lot of damage.

Other antivirals are similar: influenza and herpes are both helped if the antivirals are given soon after infection. A lot of providers were misled by studies that didn't see much effect when these drugs were given after 72 hours into the infection. When it turned out the drugs were effective if given in the first 48 hours and better if given in the first 24 hours, a lot of providers had to be convinced to let go of their initial impression of the drug.

I fear that is going on with studies of these drugs.

Roger Ramjets · 10th December 2020, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Much as that disgusts me it does point out one problem when assessing the studies of the effectiveness of these drugs. They work when given early. They don't do much once the virus has done a lot of damage.

Any studies showing that is true in this case?

Captain_Swoop · 11th December 2020, 05:20 AM

Trump Tweets

The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so!

While my pushing the money drenched but heavily bureaucratic @US_FDA saved five years in the approval of NUMEROUS great new vaccines, it is still a big, old, slow turtle. Get the dam vaccines out NOW, Dr. Hahn @SteveFDA. Stop playing games and start saving lives!!!

Captain_Swoop · 11th December 2020, 05:23 AM

Trump Tweets

The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so!

While my pushing the money drenched but heavily bureaucratic @US_FDA saved five years in the approval of NUMEROUS great new vaccines, it is still a big, old, slow turtle. Get the dam vaccines out NOW, Dr. Hahn @SteveFDA. Stop playing games and start saving lives!!!

Armitage72 · 11th December 2020, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Trump Tweets

The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so!

Exactly who is he quoting there? Himself, I'm assuming.

Resume · 11th December 2020, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Armitage72

Exactly who is he quoting there? Himself, I'm assuming.

Yes, it's him attempting to insinuate himself into the process of medical science doing what it does best, and attributing it to a miracle rather than hard work and due diligence. Which is galling because not only did he have absolutely zero to do with the vaccine and is trying to bogart the credit, but he has also repeatedly disparaged science when it doesn't validate whatever idiotic notion running around in that vacant noggin of his at any given moment.

In other words, it's just another Trump con.

ETA: Not to mention his downplaying of the pandemic, and his poor leadership that led to needless death.

Or in other words, another Trump con.

Armitage72 · 11th December 2020, 07:57 AM

I just did a search for the phrase, and the only thing that comes up is Trump's Tweet. He was throwing quotation marks around the phrase to make it look like someone else was praising his efforts. Maybe he was quoting John Barron.

Captain_Swoop · 11th December 2020, 08:37 AM

Donald J. Trump tweeted

“Donald Trump must get the credit for the vaccines. It is a miracle.”
@Varneyco

Skeptic Ginger · 11th December 2020, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

Any studies showing that is true in this case?

Anecdotally and the manufacturer's directions to give it to people before they are sick enough to need O2.

My issue is not that this has been proved (it has been demonstrated anecdotally). My issue is seeing a number of sources claiming the drugs have no effect because they didn't prevent seriously ill persons from dying.

Delphic Oracle · 11th December 2020, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Anecdotally and the manufacturer's directions to give it to people before they are sick enough to need O2.

My issue is not that this has been proved (it has been demonstrated anecdotally). My issue is seeing a number of sources claiming the drugs have no effect because they didn't prevent seriously ill persons from dying.

Until there's more than anecdotes, it is proper to say "no effect."

Exceptions prove rules.

What this means is if it is given to a patient, there had better be an explanation for why that (potentially) a review board of fellow doctors would agree made sense at that time, with the information that was available.

This is a sensible way of approaching medical best practices. Rules exist for standard procedure (and can be updated), while allowing for specific circumstances, while also insuring that questionable (or outright poor) decisions can be challenged, disciplined, learned from, and added to the data.

Resume · 11th December 2020, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Donald J. Trump tweeted

“Donald Trump must get the credit for the vaccines. It is a miracle.”
@Varneyco

No it isn't, and no he shouldn't.

Resume · 11th December 2020, 10:24 AM

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I AGREE

CNN Goes Inside Hospital Trump Called 'Fake' and 'A Scam'
Yeah, they should name the vaccine after Trump all right. Trump tweets while first responders toil and record numbers die. We really do need a Trump vaccine; one that protects us from him.

Thread continues here.

Posted By:zooterkin

9th December 2020, 12:45 AM	#3161
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,453	Also, from Katie Porter - Quote: When I came to Congress, I knew I had a responsibility to pull back the curtain for the American people and expose corruption in real time. So, I’m filling you in on Senator McConnell’s attempts over the last 8 days to tank a bipartisan COVID relief bill. (THREAD) You may have heard that Democrats and Republicans have agreed upon spending $900 billion to fund another round of small business loans, support hospitals and essential workers, and help the 10 million people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own. (2/5) Everyone at the negotiating table—including Senate Rs—has agreed to a compromise. Except one. Mitch McConnell is refusing to bring it to the floor unless it wipes away all COVID-related lawsuits filed that “allege injury or death” due to corporate negligence. (3/5) These lawsuits represent the worst of the worst examples of disregard for human life—cases filed on behalf of nursing home patients and grocery store workers who died because the company in charge of keeping them safe prioritized cutting costs over protecting them. (4/5) The same McConnell who said that President Trump is “100% within his rights” to pursue baseless lawsuits alleging election fraud is now refusing to pass urgently-needed relief unless it strips those same rights from the most vulnerable among us. This must be exposed. (5/5)
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

9th December 2020, 07:53 AM	#3163
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,122	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweets Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!! Quote Tweet Ciarán Ó Fathaigh @Spudnikus Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day. @AP #coronavirus Microbe https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2 Umm .. according to google, the US just had around 2500 deaths. Given the differences in population, Germany still has fewer daily deaths per capita than the states (even though Germany is hitting record highs). Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

9th December 2020, 11:03 AM	#3164
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,678	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Rep. Jim Jordan tweets @Jim_Jordan The WHO now recommends against hugging over the holidays. Like we said last week, pretty soon you won’t be able to say Merry Christmas. Jesus Christ, what is it with these morons and their sophomoric, kneejerk obsession with "you won't be allowed to say Merry Christmas!" that they have to shoehorn it into every single conversation, whether if fits or not? Jordan acts like there's just some sort of natural progression from a WHO recommendation against physical contract- something they've been advising against for months now- to them forbidding saying something damn near everyone says anyway, and that has no bearing at all on the spread of a virus. It's not a logical sequence, it's a non-sequitur for ninnies to gasp "I know, right?!" over.
	__________________ I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King

9th December 2020, 11:11 AM	#3165
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	LOL Trump doesn't know the difference between 15 million and 15%. No wonder he files for bankruptcy so often. https://thehill.com/homenews/news/52...ful-vaccine-in Quote: President Trump claimed on Tuesday that the U.S. was “close to 15 percent” immunity, appearing to support the idea of developing herd immunity to combat the coronavirus, an idea health experts have widely disputed as dangerous.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

9th December 2020, 12:36 PM	#3166
marting Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,144	Originally Posted by lomiller LOL Trump doesn't know the difference between 15 million and 15%. No wonder he files for bankruptcy so often. https://thehill.com/homenews/news/52...ful-vaccine-in That's 15M cases. A large number were asymptomatic or had extremely minor symptoms and never tested. That's likely 3x or more the number of cases. 15% is in line with CDC estimates. Trump's problem is that the current, broad, increase in cases, even in states that had particularly high deaths of close to .2% of the population and NPIs in place, indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping.
marting Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,144	__________________ Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.

9th December 2020, 07:21 AM	#3162
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,911	Trump Tweets Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!! Quote Tweet Ciarán Ó Fathaigh @Spudnikus Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day. @AP #coronavirus Microbe https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2

9th December 2020, 03:21 PM	#3167
No Other Muse Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 670	Originally Posted by Trebuchet And that was by far the most cases ever on a Sunday. Seven-day averages are a better metric than daily, due to weekend reporting delays and weekdays catching up. I've been tracking Worldometer since the beginning. Current 7-day average is 2237 deaths and 198,502 new cases. But hey, it's just a flu! And we're turning the corner, oh, so fast! What's missing is... how people contracted the disease... cases are not pertinent unless you provide a filter and that filter is "how many people contracted Covid-19".
No Other Muse Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 670

9th December 2020, 03:58 PM	#3168
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,986	We have a thread for that, Aridas.

9th December 2020, 06:55 PM	#3169
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,844	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 15,820,042 Deaths: 296,698 New Cases: 225,441 New Deaths: 3,243
	Last edited by Resume; 9th December 2020 at 07:15 PM.

9th December 2020, 06:59 PM	#3170
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,218	That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k?
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

9th December 2020, 07:08 PM	#3171
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 7,453	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k? 170k was... back in August, on a quick check.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

9th December 2020, 07:09 PM	#3172
Matthew Ellard Suspended Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 4,032	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k? Here is the link to worldometers /coronavirus with the 296,698 USA deaths tally. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

9th December 2020, 07:19 PM	#3173
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,059	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey That link won't open. Also the last I heard we were at 170k deaths, when did it almost double to just under 300k? You appear to be VERY far behind.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

9th December 2020, 08:25 PM	#3174
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,986	Originally Posted by Aridas Also, from Katie Porter - Quote: ...The same McConnell who said that President Trump is “100% within his rights” to pursue baseless lawsuits alleging election fraud is now refusing to pass urgently-needed relief unless it strips those same rights from the most vulnerable among us. This must be exposed. (5/5) That is such a good point and he is one of the most despicable people on the planet.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 9th December 2020 at 08:29 PM.

9th December 2020, 08:49 PM	#3175
rdwight Muse Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 781	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger That is such a good point and he is one of the most despicable people on the planet. That is a very good point. There is definitely a selective mind frame to litigious attitudes in the US. I normally don't think on it but it is definitely accepted based on class and income. Every major company or wealthy individual will be involved in multiple* lawsuits and it is accepted while those at the bottom tier are looked down on for doing the same.
rdwight Muse Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 781

9th December 2020, 11:53 PM	#3176
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,013	Originally Posted by turingtest Jesus Christ, what is it with these morons and their sophomoric, kneejerk obsession with "you won't be allowed to say Merry Christmas!" that they have to shoehorn it into every single conversation, whether if fits or not? Jordan acts like there's just some sort of natural progression from a WHO recommendation against physical contract- something they've been advising against for months now- to them forbidding saying something damn near everyone says anyway, and that has no bearing at all on the spread of a virus. It's not a logical sequence, it's a non-sequitur for ninnies to gasp "I know, right?!" over. Jim Jordan has my vote for one of the Most Stupid Members of Congress right up there with John Kennedy, Louie Gohmert, and Matt Gaetz.

10th December 2020, 04:33 AM	#3177
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 11,493	Originally Posted by marting ...indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping. I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic. Quote: Curious as to whether herd immunity against the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) might slow the spread of the disease? Understand how herd immunity works and what experts are saying about its potential impact on the COVID-19 pandemic...What percentage of a community needs to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity? It varies from disease to disease...For example, the measles is a highly contagious illness. It's estimated that 94% of the population must be immune to interrupt the chain of transmission. A vaccine for the virus that causes COVID-19 would be an ideal approach to achieving herd immunity...Herd immunity can also be reached when a sufficient number of people in the population have recovered from a disease and have developed antibodies against future infection. First, it isn't yet clear if infection with the COVID-19 virus makes a person immune to future infection...Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. Mayo Clinic link I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public. No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it?

10th December 2020, 05:24 AM	#3178
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by newyorkguy I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic. I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public. No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it? It's hard to argue this isn't the strategy we largely ended up going with. Half measures slowed the spread compared to just doing nothing and letting it rip through the country, but we never committed to the serious countermeasures that actually would have controlled spread and we have the massive death count to show for it. There's uncontrolled spread in every state now, and there doesn't seem to be any political will to do anything to stop that other than waiting for the vaccine.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

10th December 2020, 05:49 AM	#3179
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,028	Originally Posted by newyorkguy No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it? Yeah, they don't seem to get that, even if we "officially" did nothing, the sensible 50% of the public would still have been doing things like social distancing and staying home as much as possible. The economic damage wouldn't have been as bad, but if 50% of the population is voluntarily limiting their daily activities, the economy is still going to crash. They honestly seem to think that people only did any of that because they were ordered to. That pisses me off. I'm not following the government, they're following me! Me, and a heck of a lot of my friends, were cancelling things and wearing masks while the government was still dithering about what to do, because we actually understood the issues at hand. I decided I was doing exclusively work at home at least 5 days before that became the official order.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

10th December 2020, 01:46 PM	#3180
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by marting That's 15M cases. A large number were asymptomatic or had extremely minor symptoms and never tested. That's likely 3x or more the number of cases. 15% is in line with CDC estimates. Trump's problem is that the current, broad, increase in cases, even in states that had particularly high deaths of close to .2% of the population and NPIs in place, indicates that "herd immunity" under normal condistions is much higher than many were hoping. While many cases were missed early on due to lack of testing I see no evidence to support the suggestion only 1/3 of actual cases have been identified. IMO since May nearly 100% of symptomatic cases have been identified and most asymptomatic cases have been identified because the people involved knew they had been exposed.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

10th December 2020, 02:09 PM	#3181
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by newyorkguy I don't know what people have been hoping but it's been very clear for a long time what the facts are. From the Mayo Clinic. I recall reading an article back in March quoting venture capitalists the writer was friendly with. These were very successful, very wealthy people. That's what they were arguing: don't shut down the economy, keep going. People who can't protect themselves will catch it and after a while they'll all have had it and epidemic over. They asked the writer not to quote them by name as they knew that sentiment would not play well with the general public. No, I don't think it would play well, mainly because it's a stupid idea. Essentially, don't try and control the outbreak, let it run rampant. Upwards of 200 million people sick with a deadly virus, do they ever think what that would be like? This 'normal' they praise so much, they actually expect life would go on normally while 200 million people are getting the virus and 4 million are dying from it? For an R0 of 2.5 the nominal percentage of the population needed of herd immunity is ~40%. The catch is that when you achieve herd immunity by letting the infection run rampant when you reach the herd immunity threshold you are still only half way wrt total infections. At 40% infection rates R drops below 1 (aka herd immunity) but this doesn't magically stop new infections. New infections are a function of both R and the current number of infections, which is VERY high at that point if you let the infection run rampant. By the time the number of new infections is back near zero you have twice as many as when you did the day R dropped below 1.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

10th December 2020, 03:42 PM	#3182
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,129	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey It's hard to argue this isn't the strategy we largely ended up going with. Half measures slowed the spread compared to just doing nothing and letting it rip through the country, but we never committed to the serious countermeasures that actually would have controlled spread and we have the massive death count to show for it. There's uncontrolled spread in every state now, and there doesn't seem to be any political will to do anything to stop that other than waiting for the vaccine. I think that, by and large, the federal response was very close to doing nothing. it was at a large cost of life, but also a large political cost. and there wasn't any gains either
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,129

10th December 2020, 06:58 PM	#3184
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,844	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweets Germany has consistently been used by my obnoxious critics as the country that we should follow on the way to handle the China Virus. So much for that argument. I love Germany - Vaccines on the way!!! Quote Tweet Ciarán Ó Fathaigh @Spudnikus Merkel pleading with people to cut down on socializing as Germany records record 590 deaths in one day. @AP #coronavirus Microbe https://apnews.com/article/internati...441e9500ae69e2 Originally Posted by Segnosaur Umm .. according to google, the US just had around 2500 deaths. Given the differences in population, Germany still has fewer daily deaths per capita than the states (even though Germany is hitting record highs). Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk The incontinent incompetent in the WH neglects to mention that Germany's death per 100,000 is 24 compared with 87 for the U.S.

10th December 2020, 07:03 PM	#3185
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,844	From Worldometer: Quote: United States Coronavirus Cases: 16,039,393 Deaths: 299,692 New Cases: 217,779 New Deaths: 2,974

10th December 2020, 07:04 PM	#3186
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,844	Double
	Last edited by Resume; 10th December 2020 at 07:11 PM.

10th December 2020, 11:42 PM	#3190
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,341	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Much as that disgusts me it does point out one problem when assessing the studies of the effectiveness of these drugs. They work when given early. They don't do much once the virus has done a lot of damage. Any studies showing that is true in this case?
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

11th December 2020, 05:20 AM	#3191
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,911	Trump Tweets The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so! While my pushing the money drenched but heavily bureaucratic @US_FDA saved five years in the approval of NUMEROUS great new vaccines, it is still a big, old, slow turtle. Get the dam vaccines out NOW, Dr. Hahn @SteveFDA. Stop playing games and start saving lives!!!

11th December 2020, 05:23 AM	#3192
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,911	Trump Tweets The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so! While my pushing the money drenched but heavily bureaucratic @US_FDA saved five years in the approval of NUMEROUS great new vaccines, it is still a big, old, slow turtle. Get the dam vaccines out NOW, Dr. Hahn @SteveFDA. Stop playing games and start saving lives!!!

11th December 2020, 06:15 AM	#3193
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,261	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Trump Tweets The Swine Flu (H1N1), and the attempt for a vaccine by the Obama Administration, with Joe Biden in charge, was a complete and total disaster. Now they want to come in and take over one of the “greatest and fastest medical miracles in modern day history.” I don’t think so! Exactly who is he quoting there? Himself, I'm assuming.

11th December 2020, 06:27 AM	#3194
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,844	Originally Posted by Armitage72 Exactly who is he quoting there? Himself, I'm assuming. Yes, it's him attempting to insinuate himself into the process of medical science doing what it does best, and attributing it to a miracle rather than hard work and due diligence. Which is galling because not only did he have absolutely zero to do with the vaccine and is trying to bogart the credit, but he has also repeatedly disparaged science when it doesn't validate whatever idiotic notion running around in that vacant noggin of his at any given moment. In other words, it's just another Trump con. ETA: Not to mention his downplaying of the pandemic, and his poor leadership that led to needless death. Or in other words, another Trump con.
	Last edited by Resume; 11th December 2020 at 06:34 AM.

11th December 2020, 07:57 AM	#3195
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 5,261	I just did a search for the phrase, and the only thing that comes up is Trump's Tweet. He was throwing quotation marks around the phrase to make it look like someone else was praising his efforts. Maybe he was quoting John Barron.

11th December 2020, 08:37 AM	#3196
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,911	Donald J. Trump tweeted “Donald Trump must get the credit for the vaccines. It is a miracle.” @Varneyco

11th December 2020, 08:41 AM	#3197
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,986	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets Any studies showing that is true in this case? Anecdotally and the manufacturer's directions to give it to people before they are sick enough to need O2. My issue is not that this has been proved (it has been demonstrated anecdotally). My issue is seeing a number of sources claiming the drugs have no effect because they didn't prevent seriously ill persons from dying.

11th December 2020, 09:46 AM	#3198
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,359	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Anecdotally and the manufacturer's directions to give it to people before they are sick enough to need O2. My issue is not that this has been proved (it has been demonstrated anecdotally). My issue is seeing a number of sources claiming the drugs have no effect because they didn't prevent seriously ill persons from dying. Until there's more than anecdotes, it is proper to say "no effect." Exceptions prove rules. What this means is if it is given to a patient, there had better be an explanation for why that (potentially) a review board of fellow doctors would agree made sense at that time, with the information that was available. This is a sensible way of approaching medical best practices. Rules exist for standard procedure (and can be updated), while allowing for specific circumstances, while also insuring that questionable (or outright poor) decisions can be challenged, disciplined, learned from, and added to the data.

11th December 2020, 09:51 AM	#3199
Resume Troublesome Passenger Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 18,844	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Donald J. Trump tweeted “Donald Trump must get the credit for the vaccines. It is a miracle.” @Varneyco No it isn't, and no he shouldn't.