Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now? - Page 2

Silly Green Monkey · 30th July 2020, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma

I'm wondering if the hysterical crowd who have such thinking realize how ridiculous they sound to normal people?

True, it's much more like Communist China in the silencing of dissent by the peoples ruled.

Originally Posted by Wolrab

<snip>
Rioters and looters using brownshirt tactics are brownshirts. <snip>

Edited by Loss Leader:

Quote removed and post edited to conform.

Brownshirts had the authority of the government behind them. Are you accusing the federal government of sending agents provocateur to riot and loot in order to justify attacking protestors?

SuburbanTurkey · 30th July 2020, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey

True, it's much more like Communist China in the silencing of dissent by the peoples ruled.

Brownshirts had the authority of the government behind them. Are you accusing the federal government of sending agents provocateur to riot and loot in order to justify attacking protestors?

If only there were some group of street demonstrators from the time that might make an apt analogy. If only there were some group of agitators in the streets of Weimar Germany that stood in opposition to fascists. Some leftist group that, while often engaged in violent struggle against right wing extremists, did not enjoy the same protections and blessing of a center-right government.

But nope, there were no such people. Just gotta call them all fascists.

Checkmite · 30th July 2020, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by dann

Told you so!

This isn't merely "what fascism looks like", this is fascism openly making a bid for public acceptance, pure and simple. It has been the unbroken line of this administration from the beginning that the coronavirus pandemic was not actually a big deal and that reopening the country for normalized socializing and commerce was completely safe and should be a priority; and yet now here is the president rather arbitrarily and capriciously citing "safety" as a pretext for "delaying" the upcoming presidential election which he stands at least a moderate chance of losing.

Fortunately for all of us, the Constitution actually contains explicit instructions for what is to happen should a presidential election be "delayed" for any reason. Those instructions include the current president and his vice being removed from their posts on January 20th the next, as normally scheduled.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th July 2020, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

This isn't merely "what fascism looks like", this is fascism openly making a bid for public acceptance, pure and simple. It has been the unbroken line of this administration from the beginning that the coronavirus pandemic was not actually a big deal and that reopening the country for normalized socializing and commerce was completely safe and should be a priority; and yet now here is the president rather arbitrarily and capriciously citing "safety" as a pretext for "delaying" the upcoming presidential election which he stands at least a moderate chance of losing.

Fortunately for all of us, the Constitution actually contains explicit instructions for what is to happen should a presidential election be "delayed" for any reason. Those instructions include the current president and his vice being removed from their posts on January 20th the next, as normally scheduled.

Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter.

The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab.

sackett · 30th July 2020, 12:16 PM

Trumpf's at least as much Mussolini as he is (or yearns to be) Hitler. Like Musso, he's not really in charge of things, and he's surrounded by henchpigs diving deep into the public and corporate troughs. His style is best described as brutality tempered by incompetence -- and constantly distracted by greed.

Know what? He's more like an African strongman than anything European. How I'd love to tell him so!

But I'm not allowed.

lomiller · 30th July 2020, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Then what separates this from China which seems to do these things more extensively than the US but are not fascist?

Why are you asking me? People have been saying China is no longer a communist country for decades now, and if you look up 3 posts I wrote:

Originally Posted by lomiller

To be fair, though, that’s a go to of dictatorships in general not one exclusive to fascism. Eg China is trying the very same thing to pro-democracy protestors in Hong Kong. Then again, with the Chinese governments current approach to business probably makes them more fascist than communist, so maybe that isn’t a great example.

lomiller · 30th July 2020, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Know what? He's more like an African strongman than anything European.

You are probably correct. He isn’t trying to be a fascist even if it’s a somewhat reasonable (but not perfect) description for the actual polices. His real goal is personal wealth and power and he really doesn’t care much about how he achieves it, this really is like the African strong man who will embrace any “ism” in order to gain power.

Originally Posted by sackett

How I'd love to tell him so!

He'd probabaly take being called a "Stongman" as a compliment. You'd need to skip the African part though, I doubt he'd take kindly to being compared to an African.

dudalb · 30th July 2020, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

If only there were some group of street demonstrators from the time that might make an apt analogy. If only there were some group of agitators in the streets of Weimar Germany that stood in opposition to fascists. Some leftist group that, while often engaged in violent struggle against right wing extremists, did not enjoy the same protections and blessing of a center-right government.

But nope, there were no such people. Just gotta call them all fascists.

You don't know much about the history of Weimar Germany, do you?
There was pleny of street action, the problem was the left was so badly devided that the KPD..the Stalinist German Communist Party...called the more centrist SPD "Social Fascists'
and some openly thought that a Hitler victory wouljd be better in the long run for the Revolution.

SuburbanTurkey · 30th July 2020, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

You don't know much about the history of Weimar Germany, do you?
There was pleny of street action, the problem was the left was so badly devided that the KPD..the Stalinist German Communist Party...called the more centrist SPD "Social Fascists'
and some openly thought that a Hitler victory wouljd be better in the long run for the Revolution.

Yes, not a lot to look up to there. Lefties have a well deserved reputation for self-sabotage, tedious splitting, and in-fighting. My point is that it's absurd to call BLM protesters and even rioters fascists or brownshirts.

Even if they are violent thugs, they aren't fash. There's no shortage of names to call violent lefties, calling them fascists is just lazy or intellectually dishonest.

sackett · 30th July 2020, 01:15 PM

Oh lomiller. I would NEVER skip the African part. Not when talking to Benito the Lesser.

Now: Can somebody with €0.25 worth of Photoshop savvy please run up a nice pitcher of IQ45 on an ivory throne, dolled up in a leopard skin and dasiki and bow tie and pibox hat, holding a ceremonial axe (made in China is fine) and miscellaneous* other truck, glowering at us over a slogan like "One Man, One Vote, One Time." Pleeeeease do it!

* A couple of gold-plated AKs would be nice.

uke2se · 30th July 2020, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Yes, not a lot to look up to there. Lefties have a well deserved reputation for self-sabotage, tedious splitting, and in-fighting. My point is that it's absurd to call BLM protesters and even rioters fascists or brownshirts.

Even if they are violent thugs, they aren't fash. There's no shortage of names to call violent lefties, calling them fascists is just lazy or intellectually dishonest.

It's a nifty tactic though, as it devalues the word, making calling fascists fascist seem hyperbolic.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma

I'm wondering if the hysterical crowd who have such thinking realize how ridiculous they sound to normal people?

It's not paranoia when they really ARE out to get you.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I think it shows a parochial worldview constrained by a lack of knowledge on the range of authoritarian regimes.

Really? In all of human history and all regimes, this is the one it is most comparable to?

When the jackboot fits...

Brainster · 30th July 2020, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

He's following Hitler's playbook almost precisely. If his regime goosesteps like a fascist, uses the slogans and tactics of a fascist and espouses the beliefs of a fascist...do the math...

(45-1)*2=88. OMG!

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Mojo

Never attribute to fascism that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

Never dismiss as incompetence where there is a great deal of evidence of intent. NO ONE is this stupid. Even if he was, his handlers aren't.

HoverBoarder · 30th July 2020, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

You're allowed to call it anything you want.

Ironically, this means it's probably not fascism.

OMG, that is too funny!

I mean I somewhat disagree with you, and there are definitely a lot of warning signs of movement towards fascism, but you definitely get points for being witty.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Sure, where "almost precisely" means "not even a little bit".

https://www.thenation.com/article/po...ump-wisconsin/

https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/16/opini...iat/index.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...0fb_story.html

https://medium.com/politics-fast-and...s-5fef5b03883c

As always, refer back to the 14 attributes of fascism:

https://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy.

Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation:

Hyper nationalistic check
Far right check
Authoritarian check
One party state check
Positive view of violence check
Opposed to free press check
Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check
Racist check

Also misogynist.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Just starting with your first one,

How do you know the difference between nationalistic normal to right wing authoritarianism and hyper nationalistic?

Lets see, he's started several trade wars, withdrawn us from multiple international treaties and organizations, and routinely badmouths other nations' people and leadership.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

You want to start referring to Trump as Hitler now??

What took you so long?

I've been saying it for a long time. So have a lot of others. Everybody else kept saying we were wrong.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Then what separates this from China which seems to do these things more extensively than the US but are not fascist?

China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Well, you kind of did, but you labeled them 'rioters' and 'looters', which is also out of the fascist play-book.

Take - for example - the tear-gassing of the moms in Portland. Which ones of the moms were rioting or looting?

Or - as another example - the clearing of Lafayette park prior to Trump's photo op. Who were the rioters?

Or the attacks on clearly marked medical and media personnel.

sir drinks-a-lot · 30th July 2020, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

I've been saying it for a long time. So have a lot of others. Everybody else kept saying we were wrong.

Judging by this thread, they still are.

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

No, they're still police. Secret State Police, if you will.

Aka: Gestapo. Stasi, etc...

ChristianProgressive · 30th July 2020, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter.

The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab.

The GOP has been wiping its ass with the Constitution since 2010.

Checkmite · 30th July 2020, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter.

The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab.

The police don't matter. There's no police force that has the capability of interfering with the transfer of power.

The military is theoretically more of a threat; but I don't think Trump commands the absolute loyalty of enough of the US military leadership that they would be willing to step outside of Constitutional bounds in support of him. And while Trump certainly enjoys broad support among the lowest ranks, the highly decentralized structure of the US military makes it less vulnerable to a bottom-up coup or anything of that nature.

Wolrab · 30th July 2020, 03:31 PM

How is someone blinding officers with lasers, shooting commercial fireworks at the officers, lobbing explosives and Molotov cocktails and other various missiles and trying to burn down a federal courthouse be considered protesters?

sphenisc · 30th July 2020, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy.

Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation:

Hyper nationalistic check
Far right check
Authoritarian check
One party state check
Positive view of violence check
Opposed to free press check
Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check
Racist check

One party state?

Cavemonster · 30th July 2020, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

One party state?

By the time the fascists in charge have eliminated competing parties, you're WAY past arguing about "But are they really fascists?" because you're in the train on your way to the concentration camp.

We can point out the problem before the fascists are succesful past the point of having succeeded in dissolving democracy.

Silly Green Monkey · 30th July 2020, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

One party state?

I'm guessing that refers to how gerrymandering ensures Republican candidates win even with less than half of votes cast for them, how anything presented to Congress that Republicans don't like can be stopped even if Republicans are in the minority, the ever-constant rhetoric that Republicans are for the United States and God and anyone not Republican is anti-United States and anti-God. Every single Democratic candidate for president in my lifetime has been characterized as the AntiChrist and none of the Republican ones ever have. That kind of one-party state, where only one party is the True Americans and everyone else is illegal immigrants, commies, and libs.

Babbylonian · 30th July 2020, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

The GOP has been wiping its ass with the Constitution since 2010.

After taking a big **** on the "intent of the Founding Fathers" with every post-9/11 security initiative.

BobTheCoward · 30th July 2020, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it.

Use of the word fascism is a dunning Kruger test.

Brainster · 30th July 2020, 05:10 PM

BTW, I have not noticed any modesty around here or elsewhere about using the f word with regard to any Republican president, and especially not from the OP.

varwoche · 30th July 2020, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by sphenisc

One party state?

When Trump advocates that his political opponents go to jail, and when he describes them as traitors and enemies of the people, and when he goes to extraordinary lengths to deny voting rights to the opposition ... Yes, he's pushing for a one party state.

xjx388 · 30th July 2020, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by dann

No, we are not.

Yes, dann, you are allowed to say crazy things. As that post illustrated, both sides do it and no one gets in trouble.

Trebuchet · 30th July 2020, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive

China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it.

Veneer? Hell, it's more of a thin layer of plastic wrap. Full on authoritarian capitalism. There's no more communism in China EXCEPT for the authoritarian part.

Originally Posted by Brainster

BTW, I have not noticed any modesty around here or elsewhere about using the f word with regard to any Republican president, and especially not from the OP.

Nor from Trump himself. "I did try to **** her".

Trebuchet · 30th July 2020, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Use of the word fascism is a dunning Kruger test.

Libertarianism is the opposite of authoritarianism, except when it's not.

HoverBoarder · 30th July 2020, 06:04 PM

The #1 trending story on Fox News right now is the co-founder of the Federalist Society calling the President's tweet "Facist"

But it's not just like he slightly disproves, he thinks it is grounds for impeachment.

Originally Posted by Steven Calabresi

"I am frankly appalled by the president’s recent tweet seeking to postpone the November election," he wrote. "Until recently, I had taken as political hyperbole the Democrats’ assertion that President Trump is a fascist.

"But this latest tweet is fascistic and is itself grounds for the president’s immediate impeachment again ... and his removal from office by the Senate.

This is based on his New York Times Op-Ed here:

Trump Might Try to Postpone the Election. That’s Unconstitutional.
He should be removed unless he relents.

Meadmaker · 30th July 2020, 06:08 PM

If you are allowed to call it fascism, then it probably isn't fascism.

I'll just stick with morons.

HoverBoarder · 30th July 2020, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

If you are allowed to call it fascism, then it probably isn't fascism.

I'll just stick with morons.

I mean, we're talking about a scale. Trump can make Fascist actions, and it would be correct.

However, if he exposes everyone to his Full Frontal Fascism, than you wouldn't be able to publicly call him Fascist without being jailed or worse. Yeesh.

So there is some percentage between flashes of Fascism and Full Frontal Fascism where the term is still valid I guess.

30th July 2020, 12:09 PM	#42
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey True, it's much more like Communist China in the silencing of dissent by the peoples ruled. Brownshirts had the authority of the government behind them. Are you accusing the federal government of sending agents provocateur to riot and loot in order to justify attacking protestors? If only there were some group of street demonstrators from the time that might make an apt analogy. If only there were some group of agitators in the streets of Weimar Germany that stood in opposition to fascists. Some leftist group that, while often engaged in violent struggle against right wing extremists, did not enjoy the same protections and blessing of a center-right government. But nope, there were no such people. Just gotta call them all fascists.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th July 2020, 12:10 PM	#43
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 26,393	Originally Posted by dann Told you so! This isn't merely "what fascism looks like", this is fascism openly making a bid for public acceptance, pure and simple. It has been the unbroken line of this administration from the beginning that the coronavirus pandemic was not actually a big deal and that reopening the country for normalized socializing and commerce was completely safe and should be a priority; and yet now here is the president rather arbitrarily and capriciously citing "safety" as a pretext for "delaying" the upcoming presidential election which he stands at least a moderate chance of losing. Fortunately for all of us, the Constitution actually contains explicit instructions for what is to happen should a presidential election be "delayed" for any reason. Those instructions include the current president and his vice being removed from their posts on January 20th the next, as normally scheduled.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 Last edited by Checkmite; 30th July 2020 at 12:12 PM.

30th July 2020, 12:14 PM	#44
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by Checkmite This isn't merely "what fascism looks like", this is fascism openly making a bid for public acceptance, pure and simple. It has been the unbroken line of this administration from the beginning that the coronavirus pandemic was not actually a big deal and that reopening the country for normalized socializing and commerce was completely safe and should be a priority; and yet now here is the president rather arbitrarily and capriciously citing "safety" as a pretext for "delaying" the upcoming presidential election which he stands at least a moderate chance of losing. Fortunately for all of us, the Constitution actually contains explicit instructions for what is to happen should a presidential election be "delayed" for any reason. Those instructions include the current president and his vice being removed from their posts on January 20th the next, as normally scheduled. Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter. The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

30th July 2020, 12:16 PM	#45
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,382	Trumpf's at least as much Mussolini as he is (or yearns to be) Hitler. Like Musso, he's not really in charge of things, and he's surrounded by henchpigs diving deep into the public and corporate troughs. His style is best described as brutality tempered by incompetence -- and constantly distracted by greed. Know what? He's more like an African strongman than anything European. How I'd love to tell him so! But I'm not allowed.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

30th July 2020, 12:47 PM	#46
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Then what separates this from China which seems to do these things more extensively than the US but are not fascist? Why are you asking me? People have been saying China is no longer a communist country for decades now, and if you look up 3 posts I wrote: Originally Posted by lomiller To be fair, though, that’s a go to of dictatorships in general not one exclusive to fascism. Eg China is trying the very same thing to pro-democracy protestors in Hong Kong. Then again, with the Chinese governments current approach to business probably makes them more fascist than communist, so maybe that isn’t a great example.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

30th July 2020, 12:55 PM	#47
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by sackett Know what? He's more like an African strongman than anything European. You are probably correct. He isn’t trying to be a fascist even if it’s a somewhat reasonable (but not perfect) description for the actual polices. His real goal is personal wealth and power and he really doesn’t care much about how he achieves it, this really is like the African strong man who will embrace any “ism” in order to gain power. Originally Posted by sackett How I'd love to tell him so! He'd probabaly take being called a "Stongman" as a compliment. You'd need to skip the African part though, I doubt he'd take kindly to being compared to an African.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

30th July 2020, 01:06 PM	#48
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey If only there were some group of street demonstrators from the time that might make an apt analogy. If only there were some group of agitators in the streets of Weimar Germany that stood in opposition to fascists. Some leftist group that, while often engaged in violent struggle against right wing extremists, did not enjoy the same protections and blessing of a center-right government. But nope, there were no such people. Just gotta call them all fascists. You don't know much about the history of Weimar Germany, do you? There was pleny of street action, the problem was the left was so badly devided that the KPD..the Stalinist German Communist Party...called the more centrist SPD "Social Fascists' and some openly thought that a Hitler victory wouljd be better in the long run for the Revolution.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

30th July 2020, 01:12 PM	#49
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by dudalb You don't know much about the history of Weimar Germany, do you? There was pleny of street action, the problem was the left was so badly devided that the KPD..the Stalinist German Communist Party...called the more centrist SPD "Social Fascists' and some openly thought that a Hitler victory wouljd be better in the long run for the Revolution. Yes, not a lot to look up to there. Lefties have a well deserved reputation for self-sabotage, tedious splitting, and in-fighting. My point is that it's absurd to call BLM protesters and even rioters fascists or brownshirts. Even if they are violent thugs, they aren't fash. There's no shortage of names to call violent lefties, calling them fascists is just lazy or intellectually dishonest.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th July 2020 at 01:13 PM.

30th July 2020, 01:15 PM	#50
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,382	Oh lomiller. I would NEVER skip the African part. Not when talking to Benito the Lesser. Now: Can somebody with €0.25 worth of Photoshop savvy please run up a nice pitcher of IQ45 on an ivory throne, dolled up in a leopard skin and dasiki and bow tie and pibox hat, holding a ceremonial axe (made in China is fine) and miscellaneous* other truck, glowering at us over a slogan like "One Man, One Vote, One Time." Pleeeeease do it! * A couple of gold-plated AKs would be nice.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

30th July 2020, 01:17 PM	#51
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,181	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Yes, not a lot to look up to there. Lefties have a well deserved reputation for self-sabotage, tedious splitting, and in-fighting. My point is that it's absurd to call BLM protesters and even rioters fascists or brownshirts. Even if they are violent thugs, they aren't fash. There's no shortage of names to call violent lefties, calling them fascists is just lazy or intellectually dishonest. It's a nifty tactic though, as it devalues the word, making calling fascists fascist seem hyperbolic.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

30th July 2020, 01:50 PM	#52
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma I'm wondering if the hysterical crowd who have such thinking realize how ridiculous they sound to normal people? It's not paranoia when they really ARE out to get you.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 01:51 PM	#53
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I think it shows a parochial worldview constrained by a lack of knowledge on the range of authoritarian regimes. Really? In all of human history and all regimes, this is the one it is most comparable to? When the jackboot fits...
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 01:54 PM	#54
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,315	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive He's following Hitler's playbook almost precisely. If his regime goosesteps like a fascist, uses the slogans and tactics of a fascist and espouses the beliefs of a fascist...do the math... (45-1)*2=88. OMG!
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog. Last edited by Brainster; 30th July 2020 at 01:55 PM.

30th July 2020, 01:54 PM	#55
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by Mojo Never attribute to fascism that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Never dismiss as incompetence where there is a great deal of evidence of intent. NO ONE is this stupid. Even if he was, his handlers aren't.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 01:54 PM	#56
HoverBoarder Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,569	Originally Posted by theprestige You're allowed to call it anything you want. Ironically, this means it's probably not fascism. OMG, that is too funny! I mean I somewhat disagree with you, and there are definitely a lot of warning signs of movement towards fascism, but you definitely get points for being witty.

30th July 2020, 02:00 PM	#57
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by theprestige Sure, where "almost precisely" means "not even a little bit". https://www.thenation.com/article/po...ump-wisconsin/ https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/16/opini...iat/index.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...0fb_story.html https://medium.com/politics-fast-and...s-5fef5b03883c As always, refer back to the 14 attributes of fascism: https://www.favreau.info/misc/14-points-fascism.php
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:01 PM	#58
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by varwoche Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy. Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation: Hyper nationalistic check Far right check Authoritarian check One party state check Positive view of violence check Opposed to free press check Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check Racist check Also misogynist.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:02 PM	#59
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Just starting with your first one, How do you know the difference between nationalistic normal to right wing authoritarianism and hyper nationalistic? Lets see, he's started several trade wars, withdrawn us from multiple international treaties and organizations, and routinely badmouths other nations' people and leadership.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:09 PM	#60
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot You want to start referring to Trump as Hitler now?? What took you so long? I've been saying it for a long time. So have a lot of others. Everybody else kept saying we were wrong.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:12 PM	#61
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Then what separates this from China which seems to do these things more extensively than the US but are not fascist? China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:13 PM	#62
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by uke2se Well, you kind of did, but you labeled them 'rioters' and 'looters', which is also out of the fascist play-book. Take - for example - the tear-gassing of the moms in Portland. Which ones of the moms were rioting or looting? Or - as another example - the clearing of Lafayette park prior to Trump's photo op. Who were the rioters? Or the attacks on clearly marked medical and media personnel.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:14 PM	#63
sir drinks-a-lot Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Location: Cole Valley, CA Posts: 4,513	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive I've been saying it for a long time. So have a lot of others. Everybody else kept saying we were wrong. Judging by this thread, they still are.
	__________________ I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln

30th July 2020, 02:14 PM	#64
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by Trebuchet No, they're still police. Secret State Police, if you will. Aka: Gestapo. Stasi, etc...
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:18 PM	#65
ChristianProgressive Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 2,828	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter. The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab. The GOP has been wiping its ass with the Constitution since 2010.
	__________________ "As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." - Matthew 24:37 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21:28

30th July 2020, 02:36 PM	#66
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 26,393	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Constitution says things, but it's just paper if the people with guns (the military and police apparatus) decide it doesn't matter. The question isn't whether it's allowed or legal, it's whether Trump can convince enough of the military and other armed agencies to support his power grab. The police don't matter. There's no police force that has the capability of interfering with the transfer of power. The military is theoretically more of a threat; but I don't think Trump commands the absolute loyalty of enough of the US military leadership that they would be willing to step outside of Constitutional bounds in support of him. And while Trump certainly enjoys broad support among the lowest ranks, the highly decentralized structure of the US military makes it less vulnerable to a bottom-up coup or anything of that nature.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

30th July 2020, 03:31 PM	#67
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,758	How is someone blinding officers with lasers, shooting commercial fireworks at the officers, lobbing explosives and Molotov cocktails and other various missiles and trying to burn down a federal courthouse be considered protesters?
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,758	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

30th July 2020, 04:05 PM	#68
sphenisc Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,386	Originally Posted by varwoche Semantics to a large extent. The definition is fuzzy. Attributes of facism with applicability to current situation: Hyper nationalistic check Far right check Authoritarian check One party state check Positive view of violence check Opposed to free press check Charismatic, authoritarian leader with devout following check Racist check One party state?
sphenisc Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,386	__________________ "The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen

30th July 2020, 04:20 PM	#69
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,528	Originally Posted by sphenisc One party state? By the time the fascists in charge have eliminated competing parties, you're WAY past arguing about "But are they really fascists?" because you're in the train on your way to the concentration camp. We can point out the problem before the fascists are succesful past the point of having succeeded in dissolving democracy.
Cavemonster Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 6,528	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

30th July 2020, 04:21 PM	#70
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,218	Originally Posted by sphenisc One party state? I'm guessing that refers to how gerrymandering ensures Republican candidates win even with less than half of votes cast for them, how anything presented to Congress that Republicans don't like can be stopped even if Republicans are in the minority, the ever-constant rhetoric that Republicans are for the United States and God and anyone not Republican is anti-United States and anti-God. Every single Democratic candidate for president in my lifetime has been characterized as the AntiChrist and none of the Republican ones ever have. That kind of one-party state, where only one party is the True Americans and everyone else is illegal immigrants, commies, and libs.
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

30th July 2020, 04:27 PM	#71
Babbylonian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 13,497	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive The GOP has been wiping its ass with the Constitution since 2010. After taking a big **** on the "intent of the Founding Fathers" with every post-9/11 security initiative.

30th July 2020, 04:57 PM	#72
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,239	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it. Use of the word fascism is a dunning Kruger test.

30th July 2020, 05:10 PM	#73
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,315	BTW, I have not noticed any modesty around here or elsewhere about using the f word with regard to any Republican president, and especially not from the OP.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

30th July 2020, 05:32 PM	#74
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,433	Originally Posted by sphenisc One party state? When Trump advocates that his political opponents go to jail, and when he describes them as traitors and enemies of the people, and when he goes to extraordinary lengths to deny voting rights to the opposition ... Yes, he's pushing for a one party state.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

30th July 2020, 05:33 PM	#75
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,158	Originally Posted by dann No, we are not. Yes, dann, you are allowed to say crazy things. As that post illustrated, both sides do it and no one gets in trouble.
xjx388 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,158	__________________ Hello.

30th July 2020, 05:49 PM	#76
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,059	Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive China is fascism with a veneer of Communism painted over it. Veneer? Hell, it's more of a thin layer of plastic wrap. Full on authoritarian capitalism. There's no more communism in China EXCEPT for the authoritarian part. Originally Posted by Brainster BTW, I have not noticed any modesty around here or elsewhere about using the f word with regard to any Republican president, and especially not from the OP. Nor from Trump himself. "I did try to **** her".
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.