Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now? - Page 6

BobTheCoward · 14th August 2020, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Fine. You're right. It's a nascent fascist regime led by a wannabe fascist. Whew, that's a relief.

Please explain why it is nascent fascism and not other forms of authoritarianism.

varwoche · 14th August 2020, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Please explain why it is nascent fascism and not other forms of authoritarianism.

I think it's the ism that best fits.

Ziggurat · 14th August 2020, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Cool story.

Hey, isn't it odd that the DOJ is laying the ground works to call the nebulously defined "antifa" a foreign linked terrorist organization in order to authorize extraordinary domestic surveillance.

Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.

JoeMorgue · 14th August 2020, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.

Whataboutism, more trolling.

If Trump did something wrong and other people also did something wrong, Trump still did something wrong.

BobTheCoward · 14th August 2020, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

I think it's the ism that best fits.

To exalt something is to hold it in very high regard. Please demonstrate it is very high regard and not simply regard or high regard.

Checkmite · 14th August 2020, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.

Law enforcement surveilling a corrupt political official for engaging in corruption is not the same thing as law enforcement surveilling masses of individuals for expressing an opinion the leader of the government disagrees with.

varwoche · 14th August 2020, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

To exalt something is to hold it in very high regard. Please demonstrate it is very high regard and not simply regard or high regard.

No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest.

SuburbanTurkey · 14th August 2020, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest.

I think this definition is useful:

Quote:

In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/074.html

Militarized police are using the tactics of counter-insurgency on the streets of America, including the use of DHS goons that learned their trade brutalizing immigrants.

Ziggurat · 14th August 2020, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again this is one of their core argumentative trolling tactics. Until it happens you're "just being dramatic" and when it happens well it's too late to do anything.

As opposed to your tactic: you're being dramatic, and when your doomsday scenario doesn't come to pass, you claim that it didn't because you were dramatic.

Make a testable prediction. I've made multiple ones, for example, Trump won't cancel the elections, he won't run for a third term, he won't try to stay in office if he loses the election (contesting in court like Bush v Gore is part of the election process). Where's yours?

Ziggurat · 14th August 2020, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Law enforcement surveilling a corrupt political official

Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed.

Belz... · 14th August 2020, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

As opposed to your tactic: you're being dramatic, and when your doomsday scenario doesn't come to pass, you claim that it didn't because you were dramatic.

I would like you to quote Joe doing the second part of what you claim he does.

SuburbanTurkey · 14th August 2020, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed.

This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus.

Ziggurat · 14th August 2020, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Whataboutism, more trolling.

This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously?

Ziggurat · 14th August 2020, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus.

And yet, you still tried to make excuses for it. I wonder why?

Oh, that's right: because they targeted the Trump campaign. So not only was what they did OK, but people can lie about what they did too in order to justify it.

BobTheCoward · 14th August 2020, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest.

It is the criteria you used. You need to describe how it it is exalting rather than other levels of regard.

If I tell you something is extreme, but can't actually articulate why it is extreme rather than a lesser degree, I haven't defended my position.

JoeMorgue · 14th August 2020, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously?

See my sig line. Read it over and over until it sticks. Or don't and keep trolling.

Lurch · 14th August 2020, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.

"Extraordinary" and "predicated" are not the same.

Roger Ramjets · 14th August 2020, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously?

But you are taking it seriously.

Quote:

Oh, that's right: because they targeted the Trump campaign. So not only was what they did OK, but people can lie about what they did too in order to justify it.

Why should it bother you? Nothing in this thread is serious.

Roger Ramjets · 14th August 2020, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

It is the criteria you used. You need to describe how it it is exalting rather than other levels of regard.

If I tell you something is extreme, but can't actually articulate why it is extreme rather than a lesser degree, I haven't defended my position.

When have you ever defended your position?

BobTheCoward · 14th August 2020, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

When have you ever defended your position?

When was the last time I had a position?

carlitos · 14th August 2020, 07:25 PM

Hey Siri, post the eye roll emoticon.

thaiboxerken · 14th August 2020, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again this is one of their core argumentative trolling tactics. Until it happens you're "just being dramatic" and when it happens well it's too late to do anything.

Yep, it's an argument from extreme position. Just like they say racism isn't racism unless there is lynching involved.

thaiboxerken · 14th August 2020, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus.

I'm not a big fan, but Carter Page is corrupt. Also, these people in the Trump campaign weren't the target of surveillance, the government was spying on Russians. They just happened upon Trump's people committing crimes with the Russians.

varwoche · 15th August 2020, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Hey Siri, post the eye roll emoticon.

... but your stream of non-communative posts here would be an exception.

varwoche · 18th August 2020, 06:25 AM

Er, I think I misinterpreted you carlitos. Sorry about that.

Anyway... It was incredibly thoughtful of the president to pull the brazen fascist move of trying to destroy the postal service, right in the middle of this lively discussion. A moment of clarity.

SuburbanTurkey · 18th August 2020, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Er, I think I misinterpreted you carlitos. Sorry about that.

Anyway... It was incredibly thoughtful of the president to pull the brazen fascist move of trying to destroy the postal service, right in the middle of this lively discussion. A moment of clarity.

If Trump doesn't actually plan to steal the election by challenging late ballots due to USPS sabotage, he's really shooting himself in the foot. Nothing motivates voters like the perception that their voting rights are in danger of being stripped. Democratic voters are in absolute panic to ensure their votes are cast early, and that energy is almost surely driving turnout to some degree.

Making these moves to undermine the post office and not actually following through on the scheme to steal the election seems like the least optimal strategy for Trump personally. Given Trump's tendency to waffle and float absurd trial balloons, I could easily see this being the case.

varwoche · 19th August 2020, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed.

True. He was a corrupt campaign advisor. The senate report negates the right wing talking points that you're parroting here.

Ziggurat · 19th August 2020, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

True. He was a corrupt campaign advisor. The senate report negates the right wing talking points that you're parroting here.

Who's Kevin Clinesmith? Never heard of him.

varwoche · 19th August 2020, 08:34 AM

I fear that a software bug is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads.

I posted the damning summary concerning Page in the Trump + Russia thread.

And for whatever other whataboutisms you may wish to post, there is probably a thread better suited.

Ziggurat · 19th August 2020, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

I fear that a software bug is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads.

I posted the damning summary concerning Page in the Trump + Russia thread.

And for whatever other whataboutisms you may wish to post, there is probably a thread better suited.

That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic.

Lurch · 19th August 2020, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic.

Obama, on the other hand, consuming Dijon mustard... Now that's damning!

Ziggurat · 19th August 2020, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Lurch

Obama, on the other hand, consuming Dijon mustard... Now that's damning!

I never said it was.

BobTheCoward · 19th August 2020, 09:16 AM

I don't object to calling something fascist. And I don't object to the criteria provided. And I don't object to qualitative criteria. But you just can't list the criteria to make the point.

Two listed earlier had the criteria that the government "exalted" some ideas.

To exalt is to hold something in very high regard.

Then, a government that held those things in merely high regard is not fascist.

So how are we supposed to know what is high regard and what is very high regard?

Belz... · 19th August 2020, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic.

Yeah, I mean he didn't even murder anyone. And even if he did...

varwoche · 19th August 2020, 08:27 PM

Obama's speech was powerful and pertinent to this thread. He conveyed a somber, no nonsense sense of urgency, as the situation demands.

varwoche · 20th August 2020, 06:27 AM

From Obama's speech last night:

Originally Posted by Obama

You can give our democracy new meaning. You can take it to a better place. You’re the missing ingredient — the ones who will decide whether or not America becomes the country that fully lives up to its creed.

That work will continue long after this election. But any chance of success depends entirely on the outcome of this election. This administration has shown it will tear our democracy down if that’s what it takes to win.

rockysmith76 · 20th August 2020, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Obama's speech was powerful and pertinent to this thread. He conveyed a somber, no nonsense sense of urgency, as the situation demands.

so get out and vote, or by mail, if Dems are complacent like they were with hillary, they will have screwed America.

varwoche · 20th August 2020, 08:55 AM

I will vote by mail per usual, because that's the only way to vote here in WA.

Even though the outcome here is predetermined, it's uniquely important in US history that everyone who values democracy cast their vote. The margin of victory matters when a wannabe fascist is working at stealing the election.

Lurch · 20th August 2020, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I never said it was.

I had hoped it wasn't required to spell out that I was supplying an extreme example of what the Right *at large* considered shocking where the opposition was concerned, as juxtaposed against what is fine and dandy for their guy to do.

Hypocrisy rubs my fur the wrong way.

thaiboxerken · 20th August 2020, 06:34 PM

Not only is it crucial to get Trump out, but we need more Republicans out of power because Trump is a result of their contempt of government.

14th August 2020, 10:31 AM	#202
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Please explain why it is nascent fascism and not other forms of authoritarianism. I think it's the ism that best fits.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

14th August 2020, 10:31 AM	#203
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Cool story. Hey, isn't it odd that the DOJ is laying the ground works to call the nebulously defined "antifa" a foreign linked terrorist organization in order to authorize extraordinary domestic surveillance. Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

14th August 2020, 10:34 AM	#204
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign. Whataboutism, more trolling. If Trump did something wrong and other people also did something wrong, Trump still did something wrong.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

14th August 2020, 10:40 AM	#206
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 26,393	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign. Law enforcement surveilling a corrupt political official for engaging in corruption is not the same thing as law enforcement surveilling masses of individuals for expressing an opinion the leader of the government disagrees with.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

14th August 2020, 10:42 AM	#207
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward To exalt something is to hold it in very high regard. Please demonstrate it is very high regard and not simply regard or high regard. No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

14th August 2020, 10:23 AM	#201
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,244	Originally Posted by varwoche Fine. You're right. It's a nascent fascist regime led by a wannabe fascist. Whew, that's a relief. Please explain why it is nascent fascism and not other forms of authoritarianism.

14th August 2020, 10:36 AM	#205
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,244	Originally Posted by varwoche I think it's the ism that best fits. To exalt something is to hold it in very high regard. Please demonstrate it is very high regard and not simply regard or high regard.

14th August 2020, 10:46 AM	#208
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by varwoche No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest. I think this definition is useful: Quote: In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27/074.html Militarized police are using the tactics of counter-insurgency on the streets of America, including the use of DHS goons that learned their trade brutalizing immigrants.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

14th August 2020, 10:47 AM	#209
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Again this is one of their core argumentative trolling tactics. Until it happens you're "just being dramatic" and when it happens well it's too late to do anything. As opposed to your tactic: you're being dramatic, and when your doomsday scenario doesn't come to pass, you claim that it didn't because you were dramatic. Make a testable prediction. I've made multiple ones, for example, Trump won't cancel the elections, he won't run for a third term, he won't try to stay in office if he loses the election (contesting in court like Bush v Gore is part of the election process). Where's yours?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

14th August 2020, 10:48 AM	#210
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by Checkmite Law enforcement surveilling a corrupt political official Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

14th August 2020, 10:48 AM	#211
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,440	Originally Posted by Ziggurat As opposed to your tactic: you're being dramatic, and when your doomsday scenario doesn't come to pass, you claim that it didn't because you were dramatic. I would like you to quote Joe doing the second part of what you claim he does.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

14th August 2020, 10:49 AM	#212
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed. This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

14th August 2020, 10:49 AM	#213
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Whataboutism, more trolling. This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

14th August 2020, 10:50 AM	#214
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus. And yet, you still tried to make excuses for it. I wonder why? Oh, that's right: because they targeted the Trump campaign. So not only was what they did OK, but people can lie about what they did too in order to justify it.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

14th August 2020, 11:40 AM	#215
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,244	Originally Posted by varwoche No thank you. If you wish to propose a better descriptor, be my guest. It is the criteria you used. You need to describe how it it is exalting rather than other levels of regard. If I tell you something is extreme, but can't actually articulate why it is extreme rather than a lesser degree, I haven't defended my position.

14th August 2020, 11:50 AM	#216
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Originally Posted by Ziggurat This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously? See my sig line. Read it over and over until it sticks. Or don't and keep trolling.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

14th August 2020, 05:16 PM	#217
Lurch Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,648	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign. "Extraordinary" and "predicated" are not the same.

14th August 2020, 06:40 PM	#218
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,341	Originally Posted by Ziggurat This entire thread is trolling. Nothing in it is serious. Why should I take it seriously? But you are taking it seriously. Quote: Oh, that's right: because they targeted the Trump campaign. So not only was what they did OK, but people can lie about what they did too in order to justify it. Why should it bother you? Nothing in this thread is serious.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

14th August 2020, 06:41 PM	#219
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,341	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward It is the criteria you used. You need to describe how it it is exalting rather than other levels of regard. If I tell you something is extreme, but can't actually articulate why it is extreme rather than a lesser degree, I haven't defended my position. When have you ever defended your position?
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

14th August 2020, 07:04 PM	#220
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,244	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets When have you ever defended your position? When was the last time I had a position?

14th August 2020, 07:25 PM	#221
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,786	Hey Siri, post the eye roll emoticon.

14th August 2020, 09:55 PM	#222
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Again this is one of their core argumentative trolling tactics. Until it happens you're "just being dramatic" and when it happens well it's too late to do anything. Yep, it's an argument from extreme position. Just like they say racism isn't racism unless there is lynching involved.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

14th August 2020, 09:58 PM	#223
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey This might blow your mind, but I'm actually not a huge fan of the national security apparatus. I'm not a big fan, but Carter Page is corrupt. Also, these people in the Trump campaign weren't the target of surveillance, the government was spying on Russians. They just happened upon Trump's people committing crimes with the Russians.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

15th August 2020, 05:31 AM	#224
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Originally Posted by carlitos Hey Siri, post the eye roll emoticon. ... but your stream of non-communative posts here would be an exception.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

18th August 2020, 06:25 AM	#225
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Er, I think I misinterpreted you carlitos. Sorry about that. Anyway... It was incredibly thoughtful of the president to pull the brazen fascist move of trying to destroy the postal service, right in the middle of this lively discussion. A moment of clarity.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

18th August 2020, 06:28 AM	#226
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by varwoche Er, I think I misinterpreted you carlitos. Sorry about that. Anyway... It was incredibly thoughtful of the president to pull the brazen fascist move of trying to destroy the postal service, right in the middle of this lively discussion. A moment of clarity. If Trump doesn't actually plan to steal the election by challenging late ballots due to USPS sabotage, he's really shooting himself in the foot. Nothing motivates voters like the perception that their voting rights are in danger of being stripped. Democratic voters are in absolute panic to ensure their votes are cast early, and that energy is almost surely driving turnout to some degree. Making these moves to undermine the post office and not actually following through on the scheme to steal the election seems like the least optimal strategy for Trump personally. Given Trump's tendency to waffle and float absurd trial balloons, I could easily see this being the case.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

19th August 2020, 05:23 AM	#227
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Carter Page wasn't a corrupt political official. You have failed. True. He was a corrupt campaign advisor. The senate report negates the right wing talking points that you're parroting here.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

19th August 2020, 07:44 AM	#228
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by varwoche True. He was a corrupt campaign advisor. The senate report negates the right wing talking points that you're parroting here. Who's Kevin Clinesmith? Never heard of him.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

19th August 2020, 08:34 AM	#229
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	I fear that a software bug is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads. I posted the damning summary concerning Page in the Trump + Russia thread. And for whatever other whataboutisms you may wish to post, there is probably a thread better suited.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

19th August 2020, 08:37 AM	#230
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by varwoche I fear that a software bug is causing posts to bleed over from unrelated threads. I posted the damning summary concerning Page in the Trump + Russia thread. And for whatever other whataboutisms you may wish to post, there is probably a thread better suited. That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

19th August 2020, 08:46 AM	#231
Lurch Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,648	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic. Obama, on the other hand, consuming Dijon mustard... Now that's damning!

19th August 2020, 08:53 AM	#232
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,352	Originally Posted by Lurch Obama, on the other hand, consuming Dijon mustard... Now that's damning! I never said it was.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

19th August 2020, 09:16 AM	#233
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,244	I don't object to calling something fascist. And I don't object to the criteria provided. And I don't object to qualitative criteria. But you just can't list the criteria to make the point. Two listed earlier had the criteria that the government "exalted" some ideas. To exalt is to hold something in very high regard. Then, a government that held those things in merely high regard is not fascist. So how are we supposed to know what is high regard and what is very high regard?

19th August 2020, 09:42 AM	#234
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,440	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That's what you consider damning? Wow. That's just... pathetic. Yeah, I mean he didn't even murder anyone. And even if he did...
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

19th August 2020, 08:27 PM	#235
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,436	Obama's speech was powerful and pertinent to this thread. He conveyed a somber, no nonsense sense of urgency, as the situation demands.
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