Are we allowed to call Trump's regime fascism now? - Page 9

Ziggurat · 2nd September 2020, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again Trump "doesn't have an ideology so LOL he can't be a fascist"

Well, yes. Fascism is ideological. It's not simply "bad people doing bad things". Trump can't be a communist either, for the same reason.

The fact that you have to insert the LOL in your strawman is symptomatic of your inability to actually engage on the level of ideas rather than mockery.

Venom · 2nd September 2020, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Let's see...

If the "Liberal Mob" is at all like the liberals on this board, then the part about hating conservatives is definitely true.

Liberals on this board don't hate conservatives like Trump hates his political enemies.

It's inflammatory language designed to fire up his base as usual. You would not see language like that on a Biden or Sanders ad against any conservative not named Donald Trump. Actually even in the case of Trump they're not demonizing conservatives in general.

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'd say the part about hating America is also true.

theprestige · 2nd September 2020, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

Liberals on this board don't hate conservatives like Trump hates his political enemies.

True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.

Stacyhs · 2nd September 2020, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.

I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them. I hate TRUMP. I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots.

Venom · 2nd September 2020, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.

There is some hate and it isn't entirely unwarranted.

theprestige · 2nd September 2020, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

There is some hate and it isn't entirely unwarranted.

I never said it was unwarranted. I said Trump is telling the truth when he says it's real.

theprestige · 2nd September 2020, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them. I hate TRUMP. I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots.

Oh, good. You're just despise them. So very different from hating them.

Howard about the rest of it? Going after people in the street for having conservative beliefs, what do you think? Good or bad?

Venom · 2nd September 2020, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I never said it was unwarranted. I said Trump is telling the truth when he says it's real.

And he's being totally disingenuous by omission. The liberal mob is here! Just ignore the vicious conservative mobs who want to keep liberals and minorities in their place. Even more vile is insinuating that Democratic politicians are giving energy to the mobs.

It'd be laughable if it wasn't so over the top divisive. He has no empathy; everything is for the good of his reelection chances. That might sound like politics as usual for the cynic but it's quite literally true when it comes to Trump.

llwyd · 2nd September 2020, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Well, yes. Fascism is ideological. It's not simply "bad people doing bad things". Trump can't be a communist either, for the same reason.

Yeah, I think Trump's thinking is more accurately described as "authoritarianian" or "anti-liberal democracy" - I think many of the current strongmen around the world are pretty nonideological too. They just want to have power and not to be dependent on laws and elections - and they despise the smarmy centre-left as they see it. Obviously Trump is even more shallow than that but the instincts are there. So, he can both be a deadly threat to the democratic structures and processes and not really be a fascist.

Venom · 2nd September 2020, 09:56 PM

I think fascism is just one of these modern buzzwords people pick up as they become more politically and socially aware. It's in the company of terrorism, pedophilia, socialism, Independent, treason, etc. words that have specific definitions or make sense within a narrow set of conditions but have become horrifically misused in casual discourse.

Bill Maher had a New Rule segment titled "distinction deniers" that touches on this a bit. One of his better ones.

Boudicca90 · 2nd September 2020, 09:58 PM

Absolutely right I hate conservatives! They have become dangerous to this country and to everybody that doesn't fit in with their white supremacist views.

I can't even blame it on Trump, as he is just a manifestation of the decline of "conservatism" in this country. A significant segment populace has been embracing far-right views for a long time and he said all the right things to get their hatred, ignorance, and brutality going.

The Great Zaganza · 2nd September 2020, 10:21 PM

Trump's regime can be fascist without Trump himself being a fascist.

For example, he covers for and supports Cops with connections to Fascist groups. And of course the Fascist groups themselves.

If you think Trump is too lazy or unimaginative to be a Fascist, he certainly welcomes them as long as they support him.

In my book, that makes him a Fascist by association.

Stacyhs · 2nd September 2020, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does.

But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them.[ I hate TRUMP.I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Oh, good. You're just despise them. So very different from hating them.

Howard about the rest of it? Going after people in the street for having conservative beliefs, what do you think? Good or bad?

Do you have a reading comprehension disability or is this just your usual "I have to twist/disagree with everything someone says" retort?

The Great Zaganza · 2nd September 2020, 11:19 PM

I don't hate Conservatives, I feel embarrassed for them for their undignified kowtowing to a conman who doesn't share a single of their principles.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 3rd September 2020, 01:29 AM

A Yale history professor argues that we shouldn't use the word "fascist" to describe Trump, because fascism requires a "regimented mass movement, with a uniformed paramilitary arm, committed to the radical remaking of society as a whole", and that nothing currently in the US actually qualifies

He does say, though, that he's a real threat to democracy.

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 05:08 AM

I see the trolls have successfully drug us back down to explaining to them yet again why being hated for hating people and just being hated aren't the same thing while they "LOL Pretend" not to get it.

RedStapler · 3rd September 2020, 05:19 AM

A few hours ago I got compared to a Nazi Brownshirt for cheering a racists beatdown.

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Six of one, half dozen of the other. He may be non-ideological because he's lazy (rather than out of any principled commitment to not be), but that still leaves him non-ideological.

But there are occasions where he has no choice but to take action, and in those moments, he clearly shows an ideological preference. He undercuts it through short-sighted grifting and waffling, but there's a clear trend.

Sure, he leaves a lot of important loose ends unaddressed. For example, he hasn't really seem to have done much to try to co-opt the military, which is a major oversight for any budding fascist.

Being a dumb and lazy fascist is still being a fascist.

BobTheCoward · 3rd September 2020, 06:06 AM

I want to be on record that I'm not with the fascist deniers here.

I agree with the criteria presented. I agree that the behavior described lies on the continuum that criteria is located on. I just have no idea how to determine if a behavior is above or below that threshold.

rockysmith76 · 3rd September 2020, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I see the trolls have successfully drug us back down to explaining to them yet again why being hated for hating people and just being hated aren't the same thing while they "LOL Pretend" not to get it.

Or you are simply wrong, he is bad for our system, but the Fascist label is misused. And unable to handle being wrong.

lomiller · 3rd September 2020, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

But he still has to push an ideology.

This doesn't make sense. A rose doesn’t know it’s a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesn’t mean we can’t look at it and see that it’s a flower.

Likewise Trump doesn’t need to believe in fascism nor even know what it is for us to look at his behavior for what it is and describe if as fascism.

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 10:10 AM

Much in the same way Officer McTiredNHorny couldn't fire into a dark apartment and go "LOL didn't know it wasn't my apartment! I guess you have to let me go!" President Trump can't just go "LOL I had no idea I was doing anything fascists because I have the mental capacity of a bowl of clam chowder left out until it achieves room temperature."

You don't get to be intentionally stupid and then go "LOL I don't know what I'm doing, don't blame me."

TragicMonkey · 3rd September 2020, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

This doesn't make sense. A rose doesn’t know it’s a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesn’t mean we can’t look at it and see that it’s a flower.

A rose by any other name would smell as oppressive?

varwoche · 3rd September 2020, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You can claim that a fascist doesn't need to believe in the ideology he's pushing. But he still has to push an ideology. Fascism doesn't exist in the absence of ideology.

And Trump isn't pushing any ideology. The closest thing he's got is a very bland and generic populism, but it's a stretch to call Trump's version an actual ideology.

Ever since he came down the escalator, if you don't see that he's brazenly pushed the concept that brown/black people represent a dangerous threat to America and apple pie, I can't help you.

Corey Booker is heading up the invasion!

Ziggurat · 3rd September 2020, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

But there are occasions where he has no choice but to take action, and in those moments, he clearly shows an ideological preference. He undercuts it through short-sighted grifting and waffling, but there's a clear trend.

Sure, he leaves a lot of important loose ends unaddressed. For example, he hasn't really seem to have done much to try to co-opt the military, which is a major oversight for any budding fascist.

Being a dumb and lazy fascist is still being a fascist.

Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist.

But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable.

Boudicca90 · 3rd September 2020, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Much in the same way Officer McTiredNHorny couldn't fire into a dark apartment and go "LOL didn't know it wasn't my apartment! I guess you have to let me go!" President Trump can't just go "LOL I had no idea I was doing anything fascists because I have the mental capacity of a bowl of clam chowder left out until it achieves room temperature."

You don't get to be intentionally stupid and then go "LOL I don't know what I'm doing, don't blame me."

It's similar to the Costanza defense. "Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?", except even George Costanza was more crafty than Trump.

theprestige · 3rd September 2020, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

This doesn't make sense. A rose doesn’t know it’s a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesn’t mean we can’t look at it and see that it’s a flower.

Likewise Trump doesn’t need to believe in fascism nor even know what it is for us to look at his behavior for what it is and describe if as fascism.

The behavior isn't unique to fascism, though. And the things that are unique to fascism - the ideological framework and the implementation of the system - are exactly the things he's missing.

This is just "nazis" all over again.

Allen773 · 3rd September 2020, 11:51 AM

Yes.

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist.

But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable.

Hey now, don't be so glum. I still think W is a war criminal that should be hanged at the Hague

lomiller · 3rd September 2020, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

The behavior isn't unique to fascism, though.

Why would you expect it to be unique? Fascism is characterized by a set of behaviours, not one individual behavior uniquely it’s own. The relevant question is whether the behaviors mentioned are part of that set of behaviours, which AFAICT they are.

Boudicca90 · 3rd September 2020, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Hey now, don't be so glum. I still think W is a war criminal that should be hanged at the Hague

Same. It disgusts me how close the Dems are with Bush now, it's like Iraq never happened. Bush never invaded a country over false pretenses and Dems like Biden never supported it. This is the new normal for them.

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Boudicca90

Same. It disgusts me how close the Dems are with Bush now, it's like Iraq never happened. Bush never invaded a country over false pretenses and Dems like Biden never supported it. This is the new normal for them.

The onion remembers:

Quote:

George W. Bush Debuts New Paintings Of Dogs, Friends, Ghost Of Iraqi Child That Follows Him Everywhere

https://www.theonion.com/george-w-bu...s-g-1819595637

The whitewashing of Bush as some nice old man pursuing his hobbies or sharing mints with the Obamas is pretty gross.

It should be pointed out that there was no room for party disunity when we were running up against Bush too. It was simply too dangerous to allow him to win. After all, a win for a democrat would mean an end to these pointless wars in the Middle East...

Seems there's never a good time to hear grievances from the left.

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist.

But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable.

Oh get a new tune. "It's okay that we're being evil because you're being dramatic" is as played out as the Macarana at this point.

Filippo Lippi · 3rd September 2020, 01:18 PM

I'd like to contribute my signature to the thread

Darat · 4th September 2020, 04:31 AM

One area I'd say he does have a discernable ideology is his views on commerce, he is fine with private ownership of businesses as long as they support the state, I.e. Trump.

theprestige · 4th September 2020, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

I'd like to contribute my signature to the thread

I have signatures turned off. Anything mindlessly repeated in every single post can't be that important to any particular conversation.

Ziggurat · 4th September 2020, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Oh get a new tune.

This entire forum is essentially just Orange Man Bad^TM now, and you think I need a new tune?

RedStapler · 4th September 2020, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

This entire forum is essentially just Orange Man Bad^TM now, and you think I need a new tune?

And instead of realizing that Orange Man does something bad every day, you chose to go the LOL LIBRULS way?

Darat · 4th September 2020, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

This entire forum is essentially just Orange Man Bad^TM now, and you think I need a new tune?

Is he not bad?

Ziggurat · 4th September 2020, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Is he not bad?

He's not a fascist, he's not going to cancel elections, try to turn America into a dictatorship, stay in office past his term, or any of the other myriad things that he's being accused of on a regular basis here. And when have Democrats ever thought a Republican president wasn't bad? Before you bother saying it, no, I'm not claiming Republicans are any better in that regard, they think every Democrat president is bad too.

2nd September 2020, 04:35 PM	#321
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,351	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Again Trump "doesn't have an ideology so LOL he can't be a fascist" Well, yes. Fascism is ideological. It's not simply "bad people doing bad things". Trump can't be a communist either, for the same reason. The fact that you have to insert the LOL in your strawman is symptomatic of your inability to actually engage on the level of ideas rather than mockery.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd September 2020, 09:42 PM	#329
llwyd Muse Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 753	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Well, yes. Fascism is ideological. It's not simply "bad people doing bad things". Trump can't be a communist either, for the same reason. Yeah, I think Trump's thinking is more accurately described as "authoritarianian" or "anti-liberal democracy" - I think many of the current strongmen around the world are pretty nonideological too. They just want to have power and not to be dependent on laws and elections - and they despise the smarmy centre-left as they see it. Obviously Trump is even more shallow than that but the instincts are there. So, he can both be a deadly threat to the democratic structures and processes and not really be a fascist.
llwyd Muse Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 753

2nd September 2020, 10:21 PM	#332
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,674	Trump's regime can be fascist without Trump himself being a fascist. For example, he covers for and supports Cops with connections to Fascist groups. And of course the Fascist groups themselves. If you think Trump is too lazy or unimaginative to be a Fascist, he certainly welcomes them as long as they support him. In my book, that makes him a Fascist by association.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 2nd September 2020 at 10:22 PM.

2nd September 2020, 10:47 PM	#333
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,012	Quote: Originally Posted by theprestige View Post True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does. But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently. Originally Posted by Stacyhs I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them.[ I hate TRUMP.I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots. Originally Posted by theprestige Oh, good. You're just despise them. So very different from hating them. Howard about the rest of it? Going after people in the street for having conservative beliefs, what do you think? Good or bad? Do you have a reading comprehension disability or is this just your usual "I have to twist/disagree with everything someone says" retort?
	Last edited by Stacyhs; 2nd September 2020 at 10:51 PM.

2nd September 2020, 11:19 PM	#334
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,674	I don't hate Conservatives, I feel embarrassed for them for their undignified kowtowing to a conman who doesn't share a single of their principles.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 2nd September 2020 at 11:23 PM.

2nd September 2020, 07:09 PM	#322
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,901	Originally Posted by theprestige Let's see... If the "Liberal Mob" is at all like the liberals on this board, then the part about hating conservatives is definitely true. Liberals on this board don't hate conservatives like Trump hates his political enemies. It's inflammatory language designed to fire up his base as usual. You would not see language like that on a Biden or Sanders ad against any conservative not named Donald Trump. Actually even in the case of Trump they're not demonizing conservatives in general. Originally Posted by theprestige I'd say the part about hating America is also true.

2nd September 2020, 07:26 PM	#323
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,661	Originally Posted by Venom Liberals on this board don't hate conservatives like Trump hates his political enemies. True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does. But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently.

2nd September 2020, 07:49 PM	#324
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,012	Originally Posted by theprestige True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does. But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently. I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them. I hate TRUMP. I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots.

2nd September 2020, 08:07 PM	#325
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,901	Originally Posted by theprestige True. Liberals on this board express a far more vicious hate than Trump does. But also irrelevant. Regardless of whether Trump hates his political opponents, it's true that the Liberal Mob hates conservatives. Viciously, venomously, and on occasion violently. There is some hate and it isn't entirely unwarranted.

2nd September 2020, 08:20 PM	#326
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,661	Originally Posted by Venom There is some hate and it isn't entirely unwarranted. I never said it was unwarranted. I said Trump is telling the truth when he says it's real.

2nd September 2020, 08:23 PM	#327
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,661	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I don't hate conservatives. There are conservatives who don't support Trump. I don't agree with those conservatives politically, but I at least respect them. I hate TRUMP. I don't HATE Trump supporters. I just think they're idiots. Oh, good. You're just despise them. So very different from hating them. Howard about the rest of it? Going after people in the street for having conservative beliefs, what do you think? Good or bad?

2nd September 2020, 08:52 PM	#328
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,901	Originally Posted by theprestige I never said it was unwarranted. I said Trump is telling the truth when he says it's real. And he's being totally disingenuous by omission. The liberal mob is here! Just ignore the vicious conservative mobs who want to keep liberals and minorities in their place. Even more vile is insinuating that Democratic politicians are giving energy to the mobs. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so over the top divisive. He has no empathy; everything is for the good of his reelection chances. That might sound like politics as usual for the cynic but it's quite literally true when it comes to Trump.

2nd September 2020, 09:56 PM	#330
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,901	I think fascism is just one of these modern buzzwords people pick up as they become more politically and socially aware. It's in the company of terrorism, pedophilia, socialism, Independent, treason, etc. words that have specific definitions or make sense within a narrow set of conditions but have become horrifically misused in casual discourse. Bill Maher had a New Rule segment titled "distinction deniers" that touches on this a bit. One of his better ones.

2nd September 2020, 09:58 PM	#331
Boudicca90 Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 442	Absolutely right I hate conservatives! They have become dangerous to this country and to everybody that doesn't fit in with their white supremacist views. I can't even blame it on Trump, as he is just a manifestation of the decline of "conservatism" in this country. A significant segment populace has been embracing far-right views for a long time and he said all the right things to get their hatred, ignorance, and brutality going.

3rd September 2020, 01:29 AM	#335
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,252	A Yale history professor argues that we shouldn't use the word "fascist" to describe Trump, because fascism requires a "regimented mass movement, with a uniformed paramilitary arm, committed to the radical remaking of society as a whole", and that nothing currently in the US actually qualifies He does say, though, that he's a real threat to democracy.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

3rd September 2020, 05:08 AM	#336
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	I see the trolls have successfully drug us back down to explaining to them yet again why being hated for hating people and just being hated aren't the same thing while they "LOL Pretend" not to get it.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 05:19 AM	#337
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	A few hours ago I got compared to a Nazi Brownshirt for cheering a racists beatdown.
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839

3rd September 2020, 05:21 AM	#338
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Six of one, half dozen of the other. He may be non-ideological because he's lazy (rather than out of any principled commitment to not be), but that still leaves him non-ideological. But there are occasions where he has no choice but to take action, and in those moments, he clearly shows an ideological preference. He undercuts it through short-sighted grifting and waffling, but there's a clear trend. Sure, he leaves a lot of important loose ends unaddressed. For example, he hasn't really seem to have done much to try to co-opt the military, which is a major oversight for any budding fascist. Being a dumb and lazy fascist is still being a fascist.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

3rd September 2020, 06:06 AM	#339
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,239	I want to be on record that I'm not with the fascist deniers here. I agree with the criteria presented. I agree that the behavior described lies on the continuum that criteria is located on. I just have no idea how to determine if a behavior is above or below that threshold.

3rd September 2020, 06:09 AM	#340
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I see the trolls have successfully drug us back down to explaining to them yet again why being hated for hating people and just being hated aren't the same thing while they "LOL Pretend" not to get it. Or you are simply wrong, he is bad for our system, but the Fascist label is misused. And unable to handle being wrong.
rockysmith76 Banned Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 1,990

3rd September 2020, 10:07 AM	#341
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by Ziggurat But he still has to push an ideology. This doesn't make sense. A rose doesn’t know it’s a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesn’t mean we can’t look at it and see that it’s a flower. Likewise Trump doesn’t need to believe in fascism nor even know what it is for us to look at his behavior for what it is and describe if as fascism.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

3rd September 2020, 10:10 AM	#342
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Much in the same way Officer McTiredNHorny couldn't fire into a dark apartment and go "LOL didn't know it wasn't my apartment! I guess you have to let me go!" President Trump can't just go "LOL I had no idea I was doing anything fascists because I have the mental capacity of a bowl of clam chowder left out until it achieves room temperature." You don't get to be intentionally stupid and then go "LOL I don't know what I'm doing, don't blame me."
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 10:12 AM	#343
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,506	Originally Posted by lomiller This doesn't make sense. A rose doesn’t know it’s a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesn’t mean we can’t look at it and see that it’s a flower. A rose by any other name would smell as oppressive?
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd September 2020, 10:22 AM	#344
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,433	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You can claim that a fascist doesn't need to believe in the ideology he's pushing. But he still has to push an ideology. Fascism doesn't exist in the absence of ideology. And Trump isn't pushing any ideology. The closest thing he's got is a very bland and generic populism, but it's a stretch to call Trump's version an actual ideology. Ever since he came down the escalator, if you don't see that he's brazenly pushed the concept that brown/black people represent a dangerous threat to America and apple pie, I can't help you. Corey Booker is heading up the invasion!
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

3rd September 2020, 10:42 AM	#345
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,351	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey But there are occasions where he has no choice but to take action, and in those moments, he clearly shows an ideological preference. He undercuts it through short-sighted grifting and waffling, but there's a clear trend. Sure, he leaves a lot of important loose ends unaddressed. For example, he hasn't really seem to have done much to try to co-opt the military, which is a major oversight for any budding fascist. Being a dumb and lazy fascist is still being a fascist. Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist. But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd September 2020, 11:03 AM	#346
Boudicca90 Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 442	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Much in the same way Officer McTiredNHorny couldn't fire into a dark apartment and go "LOL didn't know it wasn't my apartment! I guess you have to let me go!" President Trump can't just go "LOL I had no idea I was doing anything fascists because I have the mental capacity of a bowl of clam chowder left out until it achieves room temperature." You don't get to be intentionally stupid and then go "LOL I don't know what I'm doing, don't blame me." It's similar to the Costanza defense. "Was that wrong? Should I not have done that?", except even George Costanza was more crafty than Trump.

3rd September 2020, 11:51 AM	#347
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,661	Originally Posted by lomiller This doesn't make sense. A rose doesn’t know it’s a flower, nor does it need to promote the virtues of flowers to a flower. This doesn’t mean we can’t look at it and see that it’s a flower. Likewise Trump doesn’t need to believe in fascism nor even know what it is for us to look at his behavior for what it is and describe if as fascism. The behavior isn't unique to fascism, though. And the things that are unique to fascism - the ideological framework and the implementation of the system - are exactly the things he's missing. This is just "nazis" all over again.

3rd September 2020, 11:51 AM	#348
Allen773 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Cali Four Neea Posts: 1,353	Yes.

3rd September 2020, 11:52 AM	#349
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist. But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable. Hey now, don't be so glum. I still think W is a war criminal that should be hanged at the Hague
	__________________ Gobble gobble

3rd September 2020, 12:44 PM	#350
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by theprestige The behavior isn't unique to fascism, though. Why would you expect it to be unique? Fascism is characterized by a set of behaviours, not one individual behavior uniquely it’s own. The relevant question is whether the behaviors mentioned are part of that set of behaviours, which AFAICT they are.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

3rd September 2020, 12:49 PM	#351
Boudicca90 Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Murrieta, CA Posts: 442	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Hey now, don't be so glum. I still think W is a war criminal that should be hanged at the Hague Same. It disgusts me how close the Dems are with Bush now, it's like Iraq never happened. Bush never invaded a country over false pretenses and Dems like Biden never supported it. This is the new normal for them.

3rd September 2020, 12:51 PM	#352
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by Boudicca90 Same. It disgusts me how close the Dems are with Bush now, it's like Iraq never happened. Bush never invaded a country over false pretenses and Dems like Biden never supported it. This is the new normal for them. The onion remembers: Quote: George W. Bush Debuts New Paintings Of Dogs, Friends, Ghost Of Iraqi Child That Follows Him Everywhere https://www.theonion.com/george-w-bu...s-g-1819595637 The whitewashing of Bush as some nice old man pursuing his hobbies or sharing mints with the Obamas is pretty gross. It should be pointed out that there was no room for party disunity when we were running up against Bush too. It was simply too dangerous to allow him to win. After all, a win for a democrat would mean an end to these pointless wars in the Middle East... Seems there's never a good time to hear grievances from the left.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 3rd September 2020 at 12:58 PM.

3rd September 2020, 12:57 PM	#353
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Or, alternatively, he's not doing these fascist things because he's not actually a fascist. But I think I'm done with the chicken little brigade. Come January of either 2021 or January 2025, Trump will leave office peacefully as the presidency passes on to whoever is elected. Perhaps then will this fever dream of fascism will pass. Until the next Republican is elected, and then we can expect Trump's image to be rehabilitated in order to portray the next Republican as irredeemably evil. It's all just so predictable. Oh get a new tune. "It's okay that we're being evil because you're being dramatic" is as played out as the Macarana at this point.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 01:18 PM	#354
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,364	I'd like to contribute my signature to the thread
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

4th September 2020, 04:31 AM	#355
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,062	One area I'd say he does have a discernable ideology is his views on commerce, he is fine with private ownership of businesses as long as they support the state, I.e. Trump.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you