What the **** is Wrong with American Cops? - Page 4

arthwollipot · 18th August 2020, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Which is why it's a problem for a trained social worker or counsellor, not an armed cop.

QTA: Especially not an armed cop trained by Dave Grossman in "Killology".

a_unique_person · 18th August 2020, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That’s part of it. Another part is that legalizing drugs won’t make most drug dealers go straight. They will often turn to other forms of crime in order to make a living, because most of them are involved in the drug trade to begin with because they either cannot or do not want to work in the legal labor market. Legalization won’t change that. I can’t say what the net effect of legalization will be, but there are definitely significant costs to doing so.

I'd like to see a peer reviewed paper proving that.

Ziggurat · 18th August 2020, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

I'd like to see a peer reviewed paper proving that.

Did organized crime vanish when prohibition ended? No. They just moved on to other rackets.

Don't expect anything different here. Again, that doesn't mean there can't be a net positive from legalization, but the net positive won't be as large as some people estimate.

SuburbanTurkey · 19th August 2020, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by NYTimes

Three Mississippi police officers have been charged with killing a Black man by body-slamming him to the ground and then beating him last year, the authorities said on Friday.

The three officers — Desmond Barney, Lincoln Lampley and Anthony Fox — were indicted this month on charges of second-degree murder in the death of George Robinson, 62, of Jackson, Miss.

The officers, who were all members of the Jackson Police Department at the time, caused Mr. Robinson’s death by pulling him from his car, throwing him headfirst onto the roadway pavement, and then striking and kicking him multiple times in the head and the chest, according to the indictment, issued by a grand jury in Hinds County, Miss. The indictment said the officers’ actions evinced a “depraved heart, regardless of human life.”

Man, what are the odds that 3 of the few bad apples in the police would converge in this one incident.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/u...ce-murder.html

Quote:

“multiple agencies looked into the incident and advised that no criminal conduct occurred.”

Oh ok, nothing to see here I guess.

Suddenly · 19th August 2020, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by deadrose

And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control *because* they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out?

An adult trained in how to handle it and physically capable of taking any punishment from the kid would be able to use a minimum of restraint necessary to protect the safety of both the child and other children.

Darat · 19th August 2020, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Man, what are the odds that 3 of the few bad apples in the police would converge in this one incident.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/u...ce-murder.html

Oh ok, nothing to see here I guess.

He probably had ran a red light, or did so 20 years ago so what were the police meant to do?

They were probably terrified and feared for their lives when he said something to them as they threw him to the ground.

And let's remember they are only there to remove bad people...

Dave Rogers · 19th August 2020, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

They were probably terrified and feared for their lives when he said something to them as they threw him to the ground.

The article suggested that the reason for them to manhandle him was because he got out of the car too slowly. I can imagine the poor dears must have been petrified.

Dave

caveman1917 · 19th August 2020, 08:27 AM

For people who might think that cops are better in Europe (or anywhere else in the world for that matter), this video was just leaked of cops in Belgium killing a hand-cuffed and feet-cuffed immigrant man in a cell George Floyd style while making Nazi salutes.

catsmate · 19th August 2020, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

Canada is a poor example to cite.
Has anyone seen a get of goalposts? There were here somewhere.....

Originally Posted by rockinkt

High government taxes and onerous regulations

Ah, the libertarian bollocks.

Originally Posted by rockinkt

add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis.

Citations?

Originally Posted by rockinkt

There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed.

Citations?

catsmate · 19th August 2020, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money.

Ah, facts. Expect the hand-waving to begin soon.

catsmate · 19th August 2020, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs.

It's almost as if you're spouting straw men.

It's as if you're clutching at strawmen to avoid dealing with reality....

deadrose · 19th August 2020, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

And what if a part of Saturn breaks free and hurdles itself toward earth and hits the school?

Please try to stick to the subject at hand. We were discussing a child who was violent and struck a teacher. Nothing to do with your "what-if".

Oh, pardon me, the child in this instance struck (accidentally) the school psychologist, the supposedly-trained individual that was pinning them down. The psychologist then called the police.

It's been used as an example of what NOT to do by local autism agencies.

arthwollipot · 19th August 2020, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Man, what are the odds that 3 of the few bad apples in the police would converge in this one incident...

It strikes me that "a few bad apples" is exactly what they said about Abu Ghraib.

rockinkt · 19th August 2020, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

While we're looking up words, check out what "hogtie" actually means. I honestly thought your earlier post was sarcasm, because you said to "gently and safely hogtie" misbehaving kids. I suppose if that doesn't correct the issue, a mild flogging, then a moderate beheading, would be called for.

Nope - I said violent kids. Nice try.
I know exactly what hogtie means.

ponderingturtle · 20th August 2020, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by deadrose

Oh, pardon me, the child in this instance struck (accidentally) the school psychologist, the supposedly-trained individual that was pinning them down. The psychologist then called the police.

Not by the article, it seems that the police were already there

"Police moved to arrest the boy after he allegedly hit a teacher, who was uninjured, according to a Key West Police report. Crump identified the teacher as a substitute.
The teacher was supervising a class in the lunch room and said that the student was not sitting properly on the bench seat, the report states. She asked him to sit properly several times, and then she asked him to sit by her, the report states. He refused, and she got up and walked over to him, according to the police report.
She told police that the student told her "don't put your hands on me" as she approached him. The student allegedly began to curse at her, told her "my mom is going to beat your ass," and then punched her in the chest with his right hand, the teacher said, according to the police report.
An officer observed the boy's hands clenched into fists and "he was postured as if he was ready to fight," the police report states."

Also a substitute not a psycologist.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/us/8-...rnd/index.html

deadrose · 20th August 2020, 08:33 PM

Ponderingturtle, I was talking about a separate incident http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=114

Trebuchet · 22nd August 2020, 06:08 PM

Cop can't control his police dog. Police dog approaches fence, attracting attention of civilian dog inside its own yard. What to do, what to do? Why shoot the civilian dog, of course!
Note: Video is unpleasant to watch.

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd August 2020, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Cop can't control his police dog. Police dog approaches fence, attracting attention of civilian dog inside its own yard. What to do, what to do? Why shoot the civilian dog, of course!
Note: Video is unpleasant to watch.

I trust the other witnessing officers immediately arrested their criminal peer, or at least otherwise filed an official complaint? They wouldn't turn their backs on the obvious brutal crime committed by another cop, right?

This is what's meant by ACAB. Cops aren't willing to police their own.

Steve · 22nd August 2020, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Cop can't control his police dog. Police dog approaches fence, attracting attention of civilian dog inside its own yard. What to do, what to do? Why shoot the civilian dog, of course!
Note: Video is unpleasant to watch.

When you watch the live police shows on tv such as Live PD, P D Cam, etc. it is very clear that most canine handlers have very limited control of their dogs. Dogs are frequently seen straining at their leads only restrained by the brute strength of their handlers. When a dog in unleashed and successfully catches a subject the dogs are uniformly reluctant to let go of the suspect and are again only removed by force by the handler. The dogs do not respond well to audible commands. This behaviour is enforced by rewarding the dog when they are finally under control again. A police dog off leash is a hazard and a danger to the public.

And no, I do not believe that such behaviour is necessary or desirable in a dog doing that kind of work. A dog can be trained to properly follow commands while still being effective at its work. It can be trained such that a simple NO! or equivalent verbal command from its handler will override any other other training it has received.

18th August 2020, 07:55 PM	#121
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,272	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Which is why it's a problem for a trained social worker or counsellor, not an armed cop. QTA: Especially not an armed cop trained by Dave Grossman in "Killology".
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

18th August 2020, 10:40 PM	#122
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,042	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That’s part of it. Another part is that legalizing drugs won’t make most drug dealers go straight. They will often turn to other forms of crime in order to make a living, because most of them are involved in the drug trade to begin with because they either cannot or do not want to work in the legal labor market. Legalization won’t change that. I can’t say what the net effect of legalization will be, but there are definitely significant costs to doing so. I'd like to see a peer reviewed paper proving that.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

18th August 2020, 11:40 PM	#123
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,326	Originally Posted by a_unique_person I'd like to see a peer reviewed paper proving that. Did organized crime vanish when prohibition ended? No. They just moved on to other rackets. Don't expect anything different here. Again, that doesn't mean there can't be a net positive from legalization, but the net positive won't be as large as some people estimate.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

19th August 2020, 04:21 AM	#124
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,940	Originally Posted by NYTimes Three Mississippi police officers have been charged with killing a Black man by body-slamming him to the ground and then beating him last year, the authorities said on Friday. The three officers — Desmond Barney, Lincoln Lampley and Anthony Fox — were indicted this month on charges of second-degree murder in the death of George Robinson, 62, of Jackson, Miss. The officers, who were all members of the Jackson Police Department at the time, caused Mr. Robinson’s death by pulling him from his car, throwing him headfirst onto the roadway pavement, and then striking and kicking him multiple times in the head and the chest, according to the indictment, issued by a grand jury in Hinds County, Miss. The indictment said the officers’ actions evinced a “depraved heart, regardless of human life.” Man, what are the odds that 3 of the few bad apples in the police would converge in this one incident. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/u...ce-murder.html Quote: “multiple agencies looked into the incident and advised that no criminal conduct occurred.” Oh ok, nothing to see here I guess.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

19th August 2020, 07:18 AM	#126
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,954	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Man, what are the odds that 3 of the few bad apples in the police would converge in this one incident. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/14/u...ce-murder.html Oh ok, nothing to see here I guess. He probably had ran a red light, or did so 20 years ago so what were the police meant to do? They were probably terrified and feared for their lives when he said something to them as they threw him to the ground. And let's remember they are only there to remove bad people...
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

19th August 2020, 05:32 AM	#125
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,118	Originally Posted by deadrose And when it's an autistic kid who's out of control because they're being pinned down by some adult, instead of having a chance to regroup and calm themselves, what then? How do you think that's going to work out? An adult trained in how to handle it and physically capable of taking any punishment from the kid would be able to use a minimum of restraint necessary to protect the safety of both the child and other children.

19th August 2020, 07:21 AM	#127
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,363	Originally Posted by Darat They were probably terrified and feared for their lives when he said something to them as they threw him to the ground. The article suggested that the reason for them to manhandle him was because he got out of the car too slowly. I can imagine the poor dears must have been petrified. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 Last edited by Dave Rogers; 19th August 2020 at 07:24 AM.

19th August 2020, 08:27 AM	#128
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,873	For people who might think that cops are better in Europe (or anywhere else in the world for that matter), this video was just leaked of cops in Belgium killing a hand-cuffed and feet-cuffed immigrant man in a cell George Floyd style while making Nazi salutes.
caveman1917 Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 7,873	__________________ "Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin Last edited by caveman1917; 19th August 2020 at 08:29 AM.

19th August 2020, 11:42 AM	#129
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,836	Originally Posted by rockinkt Canada is a poor example to cite. Has anyone seen a get of goalposts? There were here somewhere..... Originally Posted by rockinkt High government taxes and onerous regulations Ah, the libertarian bollocks. Originally Posted by rockinkt add so much to the cost that legal cannabis is more expensive than illegally sourced cannabis. Citations? Originally Posted by rockinkt There are also questions about the strength and quality of the legal weed. This has resulted in virtually no reduction in the production or sales of illegal weed. Citations?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

19th August 2020, 11:43 AM	#130
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,836	Originally Posted by pgwenthold But there it has resulted in tons of actual cannabis businesses. There's like a pot shop on every block in Vancouver. They aren't all losing money. Ah, facts. Expect the hand-waving to begin soon.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

19th August 2020, 11:44 AM	#131
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 23,836	Originally Posted by Ziggurat If I'm right, there wouldn't be an explosion,. There would just be a shift. And Canada hardly legalized all drugs. It's almost as if you're spouting straw men. It's as if you're clutching at strawmen to avoid dealing with reality....
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

19th August 2020, 05:08 PM	#132
deadrose Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the wet side of the mountains Posts: 3,558	Originally Posted by rockinkt And what if a part of Saturn breaks free and hurdles itself toward earth and hits the school? Please try to stick to the subject at hand. We were discussing a child who was violent and struck a teacher. Nothing to do with your "what-if". Oh, pardon me, the child in this instance struck (accidentally) the school psychologist, the supposedly-trained individual that was pinning them down. The psychologist then called the police. It's been used as an example of what NOT to do by local autism agencies.

19th August 2020, 05:16 PM	#133
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 70,272	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Man, what are the odds that 3 of the few bad apples in the police would converge in this one incident... It strikes me that "a few bad apples" is exactly what they said about Abu Ghraib.
	__________________ Please scream inside your heart.

19th August 2020, 11:13 PM	#134
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,096	Originally Posted by Myriad While we're looking up words, check out what "hogtie" actually means. I honestly thought your earlier post was sarcasm, because you said to "gently and safely hogtie" misbehaving kids. I suppose if that doesn't correct the issue, a mild flogging, then a moderate beheading, would be called for. Nope - I said violent kids. Nice try. I know exactly what hogtie means.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,096	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

20th August 2020, 03:53 AM	#135
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,433	Originally Posted by deadrose Oh, pardon me, the child in this instance struck (accidentally) the school psychologist, the supposedly-trained individual that was pinning them down. The psychologist then called the police. Not by the article, it seems that the police were already there "Police moved to arrest the boy after he allegedly hit a teacher, who was uninjured, according to a Key West Police report. Crump identified the teacher as a substitute. The teacher was supervising a class in the lunch room and said that the student was not sitting properly on the bench seat, the report states. She asked him to sit properly several times, and then she asked him to sit by her, the report states. He refused, and she got up and walked over to him, according to the police report. She told police that the student told her "don't put your hands on me" as she approached him. The student allegedly began to curse at her, told her "my mom is going to beat your ass," and then punched her in the chest with his right hand, the teacher said, according to the police report. An officer observed the boy's hands clenched into fists and "he was postured as if he was ready to fight," the police report states." Also a substitute not a psycologist. https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/11/us/8-...rnd/index.html
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20th August 2020, 08:33 PM	#136
deadrose Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the wet side of the mountains Posts: 3,558	Ponderingturtle, I was talking about a separate incident http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=114

22nd August 2020, 06:08 PM	#137
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,025	Cop can't control his police dog. Police dog approaches fence, attracting attention of civilian dog inside its own yard. What to do, what to do? Why shoot the civilian dog, of course! Note: Video is unpleasant to watch.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

22nd August 2020, 06:17 PM	#138
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,940	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Cop can't control his police dog. Police dog approaches fence, attracting attention of civilian dog inside its own yard. What to do, what to do? Why shoot the civilian dog, of course! Note: Video is unpleasant to watch. I trust the other witnessing officers immediately arrested their criminal peer, or at least otherwise filed an official complaint? They wouldn't turn their backs on the obvious brutal crime committed by another cop, right? This is what's meant by ACAB. Cops aren't willing to police their own.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

22nd August 2020, 06:58 PM	#139
Steve Philosopher Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 8,392	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Cop can't control his police dog. Police dog approaches fence, attracting attention of civilian dog inside its own yard. What to do, what to do? Why shoot the civilian dog, of course! Note: Video is unpleasant to watch. When you watch the live police shows on tv such as Live PD, P D Cam, etc. it is very clear that most canine handlers have very limited control of their dogs. Dogs are frequently seen straining at their leads only restrained by the brute strength of their handlers. When a dog in unleashed and successfully catches a subject the dogs are uniformly reluctant to let go of the suspect and are again only removed by force by the handler. The dogs do not respond well to audible commands. This behaviour is enforced by rewarding the dog when they are finally under control again. A police dog off leash is a hazard and a danger to the public. And no, I do not believe that such behaviour is necessary or desirable in a dog doing that kind of work. A dog can be trained to properly follow commands while still being effective at its work. It can be trained such that a simple NO! or equivalent verbal command from its handler will override any other other training it has received.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"