Requiring oxygen to survive while black

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 07:13 AM

Daniel Prude was killed by Rochester Police March 30th after they placed a spit hood over his head and pinned him face down against the street until he died of suffocation. He was completely nude and handcuffed when he was killed by the police.

The medical exam concluded that:

Quote:

Prude’s death was a homicide caused by “complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint.”

https://apnews.com/5c2f0cf366e560b7f...&utm_medium=AP

The family called the police because the man was having a serious mental episode and needed assistance and the cops killed him.

Quote:

“The police have shown us over and over again that they are not equipped to handle individuals with mental health concerns. These officers are trained to kill, and not to deescalate. These officers are trained to ridicule, instead of supporting Mr. Daniel Prude,” Ashley Gantt of Free the People ROC said at the news conference with Prude’s family.

William Parcher · 3rd September 2020, 07:47 AM

Quote:

A medical examiner concluded that Prude’s death was a homicide caused by “complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint.” The report lists excited delirium and acute intoxication by phencyclidine, or PCP, as contributing factors.

He should not have been killed and this is another tragedy because of mental illness. In this case it was mental illness combined with a powerful drug (probably) used for recreation.

This is obviously a dangerous drug. Look at his extremely psychotic behavior. It's dangerous for him and the others around him.

Is PCP a common street drug, or what?

RedStapler · 3rd September 2020, 07:49 AM

Here comes the victim blaming, like a clockwork. Good job, sir.

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 07:51 AM

Goddamn black people just hurry up and evolve gills or something. Jeez.

shemp · 3rd September 2020, 08:03 AM

It's his own fault that he couldn't hold his breath long enough.

Thermal · 3rd September 2020, 08:05 AM

Ok. Reading in a little to the cop's behavior:they likely deal with whacked out
high-as-a-kite guys day in and day out, and misread the victim here. So how do you get police to differentiate and recognize mental illness? Formal EMT training? Would that soften their callous? Maybe rotate them more frequently off street detail?

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ok. Reading in a little to the cop's behavior:they likely deal with whacked out
high-as-a-kite guys day in and day out, and misread the victim here. So how do you get police to differentiate and recognize mental illness? Formal EMT training? Would that soften their callous? Maybe rotate them more frequently off street detail?

the man was bare-ass naked and handcuffed wearing a spit hood. How is this person dangerous at this point? Maybe it isn't necessary to pin him face-down to the ground.

Extended restraint is dangerous. People regularly die from it. The cops keep doing it because they just don't care. Utter indifference to human life.

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 08:09 AM

I see the "LOL he's on PCP so at any moment he can snap the handcuffs, leap 50 feet into the air, punch a building in half, and shrug off .50 caliber cannon rounds to chest" thing from the 80s is trying its best to make a comeback.

Thermal · 3rd September 2020, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

the man was bare-ass naked and handcuffed wearing a spit hood. How is this person dangerous at this point? Maybe it isn't necessary to pin him face-down to the ground.

Extended restraint is dangerous. People regularly die from it. The cops keep doing it because they just don't care. Utter indifference to human life.

Right, that's what im saying. I think that callous needs to be broken. I think rotating them off to other duties more frequently is a step in the right direction. Have them interacting more positively with the people they are supposed to protect might knock down their edge

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Right, that's what im saying. I think that callous needs to be broken. I think rotating them off to other duties more frequently is a step in the right direction. Have them interacting more positively with the people they are supposed to protect might knock down their edge

Reckless indifference to human life resulting in a death is generally considered a criminal matter.

Even being generous, some form of manslaughter charge seems appropriate.

Thermal · 3rd September 2020, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Reckless indifference to human life resulting is a death is generally considered a criminal matter.

Even being generous, some form of manslaughter charge seems appropriate.

Agreed. I'm talking about what practical steps can be taken to break a very bad culture of thuggery. This whole 'keep complaining while it keeps happening' thing kind of begs for some workable proposals.

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Agreed. I'm talking about what practical steps can be taken to break a very bad culture of thuggery. This whole 'keep complaining while it keeps happening' thing kind of begs for some workable proposals.

Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality.

Police ought not be responding to many of these kinds of calls. Their budget should be reduced and the money should be spent on other emergency services.

William Parcher · 3rd September 2020, 08:29 AM

The medical examiner says that the extreme PCP intoxication contributed to asphyxiation. Maybe he was breathing like a racehorse when they put the hood on.

Mumbles · 3rd September 2020, 08:39 AM

I have no use for excuses, so I'll say this:

If you know someone with a serious mental illness and you are in the US, do *not* call 911 if they're having an episode, if it can be avoided. Instead, call a hospital or the local firehouse directly. The mentally ill are often entirely unable to deal with a raging, armed fool that is hellbent on escalating the situation the way many US police do.

(THis is advise that has been given to me and my family by others who have been in this exact situation.)

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 08:42 AM

If he was having trouble breathing the cops should have noticed that and reacted so he DIDN'T ******* DIE.

And anyone who says "LOL nobody is saying otherwise" is a liar.

Myriad · 3rd September 2020, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

The medical examiner says that the extreme PCP intoxication contributed to asphyxiation. Maybe he was breathing like a racehorse when they put the hood on.

Yeah, I'm sure the cops carefully made sure he was getting his fair share of oxygen and it's his own fault if he'd put himself into a condition where he needed more than that to survive!

Seriously, what's the point of these apologetics? Even if someone was on oxygen in a hospital, if a killer nurse turned the oxygen off so the patient died, the fact that the patient needed more oxygen than normal in the first place wouldn't mitigate the murderer's actus reus or the mens rea one bit.

Darat · 3rd September 2020, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ok. Reading in a little to the cop's behavior:they likely deal with whacked out
high-as-a-kite guys day in and day out, and misread the victim here. So how do you get police to differentiate and recognize mental illness? Formal EMT training? Would that soften their callous? Maybe rotate them more frequently off street detail?

Do you really think there are police officers out there that don't know people need to breathe? Because that is what this instance boils down to. This is not lack of sufficient training this is a lack of humanity.

RedStapler · 3rd September 2020, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

The medical examiner says that the extreme PCP intoxication contributed to asphyxiation. Maybe he was breathing like a racehorse when they put the hood on.

Cop: Wow, this guy is breathing like a racehorse, better put a hood on his head, what could go wrong.

Vixen · 3rd September 2020, 09:11 AM

It amazes me when people point out that Floyd and Proud 'were criminals'. Er, hello, that is why they have come in contact with the police. Doesn't make it right to suffocate them, doh!

Thermal · 3rd September 2020, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality.

Again, agreed. Also publicly identifying an officer involved in deaths of suspects. Say their names, too.

Quote:

Police ought no be responding to many of these kinds of calls. Their budget should be reduced and the money should be spent on other emergency services.

Regarding the OP, disagreed. You have a naked dude runno g around in the snow, call a ******* cop. That's reasonable, especially looking at other threads here where posters insist you call police to resolve all manner of trivialities. But the cops need to respond appropriately, not declare anyone behaving oddly to be an animal.

deadrose · 3rd September 2020, 10:15 AM

One point about rotating cops to give them cool-off time is that neighborhoods who've never had any police violence suddenly find out what it's like. My home town (Vashon Island) discovered that when a cop fresh from a fairly gang-ridden neighborhood broke someone's arm because he was walking down the wrong side of the road.

Victim thought he was doing the right thing when he had too much to drink and decided to walk home rather than drive.

How many of you can remember (without checking) which side of the road you walk on if there are no sidewalks?

After a few incidents like that, Vashon (which is painfully white) started to understand and sympathize a lot more with minority communities. So, maybe rotating cops is a good idea for other reasons, too.

Dr. Keith · 3rd September 2020, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality.

Accountability. It is management 101, yet it is forbidden in US policing.

casebro · 3rd September 2020, 12:42 PM

Spit hoods can suffocate people, but I should be able to breath just fine through a mask?

Just how fine of a weave are spit hoods? They don't have to be a plastic bag. Do they?

SuburbanTurkey · 3rd September 2020, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

Spit hoods can suffocate people, but I should be able to breath just fine through a mask?

Just how fine of a weave are spit hoods? They don't have to be a plastic bag. Do they?

I concede you might have problems breathing through a mask while being forcibly restrained face down with your hands cuffed behind your back.

crescent · 3rd September 2020, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

Spit hoods can suffocate people, but I should be able to breath just fine through a mask?

Just how fine of a weave are spit hoods? They don't have to be a plastic bag. Do they?

Just googling "spit hoods" gives images of things made of mesh about as coarse as a mosquito net. Much less obstructive than a cloth mask.

But there's variability. I don't know what the PD in question might have been using.

ponderingturtle · 3rd September 2020, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I concede you might have problems breathing through a mask while being forcibly restrained face down with your hands cuffed behind your back.

It is almost as if you could be suffocated with out any mask on at all!

Darat · 3rd September 2020, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

It is almost as if you could be suffocated with out any mask on at all!

Nah, it's the illegal drugs that are suffocating people. If the police hadn't been there he would have still suffocated.

William Parcher · 3rd September 2020, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Nah, it's the illegal drugs that are suffocating people. If the police hadn't been there he would have still suffocated.

The medical examiner said it was a contributing factor, not that it caused his death.

You made a straw man.

Manger Douse · 3rd September 2020, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Nah, it's the illegal drugs that are suffocating people. If the police hadn't been there he would have still suffocated.

I once took illegal drugs and suffocated to death. Got better though - I think these black guys are just lazy. I blame the Democrats and the benefits they hand out willy-nilly

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

The medical examiner said it was a contributing factor, not that it caused his death.

You made a straw man.

You're the one who brought it up. There's no poison in the well that you didn't introduce.

Venom · 3rd September 2020, 01:37 PM

This is why cops shouldn't be called in for mental health episodes and if they happen to be, should have better training on how to safely restrain a struggling person.

JoeMorgue · 3rd September 2020, 01:42 PM

"Check to make sure he can breath" can't be fixed by training.

William Parcher · 3rd September 2020, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

You're the one who brought it up. There's no poison in the well that you didn't introduce.

It was the medical examiner who mentioned PCP. I don't consider that to be poisoning a well.

You made a straw man.

Distracted1 · 3rd September 2020, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Agreed. I'm talking about what practical steps can be taken to break a very bad culture of thuggery. This whole 'keep complaining while it keeps happening' thing kind of begs for some workable proposals.

Institute a "double or nothing" policy.

All complaints such as "I can't breathe" will be viewed as legitimate.
Should they be found to be bogus- whatever penalty that would have been imposed for the broken law is doubled.

Call it the "crying wolf" penalty, or some such.

Distracted1 · 3rd September 2020, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality.

Police ought not be responding to many of these kinds of calls. Their budget should be reduced and the money should be spent on other emergency services.

How do you expect that a mental health worker would have resolved this situation of the naked man on PCP , if not by calling the cops?

Darat · 3rd September 2020, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Institute a "double or nothing" policy.

All complaints such as "I can't breathe" will be viewed as legitimate.
Should they be found to be bogus- whatever penalty that would have been imposed for the broken law is doubled.

Call it the "crying wolf" penalty, or some such.

How will you be bringing these dead people back to life?

Norman Alexander · 3rd September 2020, 05:30 PM

Running naked out in the snow, you say? Why not just let him do that. Herd him out into the hills or something. Sooner or later (probably sooner) the PCP will wear off and the cold will slow him down a lot. When he is finally cooled off (hah!) naturally, just make sure he doesn't get frostbite, wrap him in a blanket, and get him into protective custody in hospital.

Modified · 3rd September 2020, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Distracted1

Institute a "double or nothing" policy.

All complaints such as "I can't breathe" will be viewed as legitimate.
Should they be found to be bogus- whatever penalty that would have been imposed for the broken law is doubled.

Call it the "crying wolf" penalty, or some such.

How would you determine that such a complaint was not legitimate?

casebro · 3rd September 2020, 07:11 PM

When a guy stops moving you should probably take your knee off his neck and the bag off his head.

Thermal · 3rd September 2020, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Running naked out in the snow, you say? Why not just let him do that. Herd him out into the hills or something. Sooner or later (probably sooner) the PCP will wear off and the cold will slow him down a lot. When he is finally cooled off (hah!) naturally, just make sure he doesn't get frostbite, wrap him in a blanket, and get him into protective custody in hospital.

This tale takes place in New York. How many fathers would have shot the naked man in the street before the hypothesized cool down?

3rd September 2020, 07:13 AM	#1
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,017	Requiring oxygen to survive while black Daniel Prude was killed by Rochester Police March 30th after they placed a spit hood over his head and pinned him face down against the street until he died of suffocation. He was completely nude and handcuffed when he was killed by the police. The medical exam concluded that: Quote: Prude’s death was a homicide caused by “complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint.” https://apnews.com/5c2f0cf366e560b7f...&utm_medium=AP The family called the police because the man was having a serious mental episode and needed assistance and the cops killed him. Quote: “The police have shown us over and over again that they are not equipped to handle individuals with mental health concerns. These officers are trained to kill, and not to deescalate. These officers are trained to ridicule, instead of supporting Mr. Daniel Prude,” Ashley Gantt of Free the People ROC said at the news conference with Prude’s family.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

3rd September 2020, 07:47 AM	#2
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,769	Quote: A medical examiner concluded that Prude’s death was a homicide caused by “complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint.” The report lists excited delirium and acute intoxication by phencyclidine, or PCP, as contributing factors. He should not have been killed and this is another tragedy because of mental illness. In this case it was mental illness combined with a powerful drug (probably) used for recreation. This is obviously a dangerous drug. Look at his extremely psychotic behavior. It's dangerous for him and the others around him. Is PCP a common street drug, or what?
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3rd September 2020, 07:49 AM	#3
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Here comes the victim blaming, like a clockwork. Good job, sir.
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839

3rd September 2020, 07:51 AM	#4
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,721	Goddamn black people just hurry up and evolve gills or something. Jeez.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 08:03 AM	#5
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X Posts: 40,334	It's his own fault that he couldn't hold his breath long enough.
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3rd September 2020, 08:05 AM	#6
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Ok. Reading in a little to the cop's behavior:they likely deal with whacked out high-as-a-kite guys day in and day out, and misread the victim here. So how do you get police to differentiate and recognize mental illness? Formal EMT training? Would that soften their callous? Maybe rotate them more frequently off street detail?
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

3rd September 2020, 08:06 AM	#7
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,017	Originally Posted by Thermal Ok. Reading in a little to the cop's behavior:they likely deal with whacked out high-as-a-kite guys day in and day out, and misread the victim here. So how do you get police to differentiate and recognize mental illness? Formal EMT training? Would that soften their callous? Maybe rotate them more frequently off street detail? the man was bare-ass naked and handcuffed wearing a spit hood. How is this person dangerous at this point? Maybe it isn't necessary to pin him face-down to the ground. Extended restraint is dangerous. People regularly die from it. The cops keep doing it because they just don't care. Utter indifference to human life.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

3rd September 2020, 08:09 AM	#8
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,721	I see the "LOL he's on PCP so at any moment he can snap the handcuffs, leap 50 feet into the air, punch a building in half, and shrug off .50 caliber cannon rounds to chest" thing from the 80s is trying its best to make a comeback.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." Last edited by JoeMorgue; 3rd September 2020 at 08:10 AM.

3rd September 2020, 08:21 AM	#9
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey the man was bare-ass naked and handcuffed wearing a spit hood. How is this person dangerous at this point? Maybe it isn't necessary to pin him face-down to the ground. Extended restraint is dangerous. People regularly die from it. The cops keep doing it because they just don't care. Utter indifference to human life. Right, that's what im saying. I think that callous needs to be broken. I think rotating them off to other duties more frequently is a step in the right direction. Have them interacting more positively with the people they are supposed to protect might knock down their edge
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

3rd September 2020, 08:23 AM	#10
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,017	Originally Posted by Thermal Right, that's what im saying. I think that callous needs to be broken. I think rotating them off to other duties more frequently is a step in the right direction. Have them interacting more positively with the people they are supposed to protect might knock down their edge Reckless indifference to human life resulting in a death is generally considered a criminal matter. Even being generous, some form of manslaughter charge seems appropriate.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

3rd September 2020, 08:26 AM	#11
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Reckless indifference to human life resulting is a death is generally considered a criminal matter. Even being generous, some form of manslaughter charge seems appropriate. Agreed. I'm talking about what practical steps can be taken to break a very bad culture of thuggery. This whole 'keep complaining while it keeps happening' thing kind of begs for some workable proposals.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

3rd September 2020, 08:29 AM	#12
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,017	Originally Posted by Thermal Agreed. I'm talking about what practical steps can be taken to break a very bad culture of thuggery. This whole 'keep complaining while it keeps happening' thing kind of begs for some workable proposals. Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality. Police ought not be responding to many of these kinds of calls. Their budget should be reduced and the money should be spent on other emergency services.
	__________________ Gobble gobble Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 3rd September 2020 at 09:12 AM.

3rd September 2020, 08:39 AM	#14
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,432	I have no use for excuses, so I'll say this: If you know someone with a serious mental illness and you are in the US, do not call 911 if they're having an episode, if it can be avoided. Instead, call a hospital or the local firehouse directly. The mentally ill are often entirely unable to deal with a raging, armed fool that is hellbent on escalating the situation the way many US police do. (THis is advise that has been given to me and my family by others who have been in this exact situation.)
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,432

3rd September 2020, 08:42 AM	#15
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,721	If he was having trouble breathing the cops should have noticed that and reacted so he DIDN'T ****** DIE.* And anyone who says "LOL nobody is saying otherwise" is a liar.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 08:52 AM	#16
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 17,493	Originally Posted by William Parcher The medical examiner says that the extreme PCP intoxication contributed to asphyxiation. Maybe he was breathing like a racehorse when they put the hood on. Yeah, I'm sure the cops carefully made sure he was getting his fair share of oxygen and it's his own fault if he'd put himself into a condition where he needed more than that to survive! Seriously, what's the point of these apologetics? Even if someone was on oxygen in a hospital, if a killer nurse turned the oxygen off so the patient died, the fact that the patient needed more oxygen than normal in the first place wouldn't mitigate the murderer's actus reus or the mens rea one bit.
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3rd September 2020, 09:02 AM	#17
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,150	Originally Posted by Thermal Ok. Reading in a little to the cop's behavior:they likely deal with whacked out high-as-a-kite guys day in and day out, and misread the victim here. So how do you get police to differentiate and recognize mental illness? Formal EMT training? Would that soften their callous? Maybe rotate them more frequently off street detail? Do you really think there are police officers out there that don't know people need to breathe? Because that is what this instance boils down to. This is not lack of sufficient training this is a lack of humanity.
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3rd September 2020, 09:04 AM	#18
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839	Originally Posted by William Parcher The medical examiner says that the extreme PCP intoxication contributed to asphyxiation. Maybe he was breathing like a racehorse when they put the hood on. Cop: Wow, this guy is breathing like a racehorse, better put a hood on his head, what could go wrong.
RedStapler Guest Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 839

3rd September 2020, 09:11 AM	#19
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,921	It amazes me when people point out that Floyd and Proud 'were criminals'. Er, hello, that is why they have come in contact with the police. Doesn't make it right to suffocate them, doh!
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3rd September 2020, 09:15 AM	#20
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,542	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality. Again, agreed. Also publicly identifying an officer involved in deaths of suspects. Say their names, too. Quote: Police ought no be responding to many of these kinds of calls. Their budget should be reduced and the money should be spent on other emergency services. Regarding the OP, disagreed. You have a naked dude runno g around in the snow, call a ******* cop. That's reasonable, especially looking at other threads here where posters insist you call police to resolve all manner of trivialities. But the cops need to respond appropriately, not declare anyone behaving oddly to be an animal.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

3rd September 2020, 10:15 AM	#21
deadrose Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: the wet side of the mountains Posts: 3,559	One point about rotating cops to give them cool-off time is that neighborhoods who've never had any police violence suddenly find out what it's like. My home town (Vashon Island) discovered that when a cop fresh from a fairly gang-ridden neighborhood broke someone's arm because he was walking down the wrong side of the road. Victim thought he was doing the right thing when he had too much to drink and decided to walk home rather than drive. How many of you can remember (without checking) which side of the road you walk on if there are no sidewalks? After a few incidents like that, Vashon (which is painfully white) started to understand and sympathize a lot more with minority communities. So, maybe rotating cops is a good idea for other reasons, too.

3rd September 2020, 11:17 AM	#22
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,581	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality. Accountability. It is management 101, yet it is forbidden in US policing.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

3rd September 2020, 12:42 PM	#23
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 18,657	Spit hoods can suffocate people, but I should be able to breath just fine through a mask? Just how fine of a weave are spit hoods? They don't have to be a plastic bag. Do they?
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

3rd September 2020, 12:45 PM	#24
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,017	Originally Posted by casebro Spit hoods can suffocate people, but I should be able to breath just fine through a mask? Just how fine of a weave are spit hoods? They don't have to be a plastic bag. Do they? I concede you might have problems breathing through a mask while being forcibly restrained face down with your hands cuffed behind your back.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

3rd September 2020, 12:58 PM	#25
crescent Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,989	Originally Posted by casebro Spit hoods can suffocate people, but I should be able to breath just fine through a mask? Just how fine of a weave are spit hoods? They don't have to be a plastic bag. Do they? Just googling "spit hoods" gives images of things made of mesh about as coarse as a mosquito net. Much less obstructive than a cloth mask. But there's variability. I don't know what the PD in question might have been using.

3rd September 2020, 01:02 PM	#26
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,466	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I concede you might have problems breathing through a mask while being forcibly restrained face down with your hands cuffed behind your back. It is almost as if you could be suffocated with out any mask on at all!
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3rd September 2020, 01:06 PM	#27
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,150	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle It is almost as if you could be suffocated with out any mask on at all! Nah, it's the illegal drugs that are suffocating people. If the police hadn't been there he would have still suffocated.
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3rd September 2020, 01:13 PM	#28
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,769	Originally Posted by Darat Nah, it's the illegal drugs that are suffocating people. If the police hadn't been there he would have still suffocated. The medical examiner said it was a contributing factor, not that it caused his death. You made a straw man.
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3rd September 2020, 01:33 PM	#29
Manger Douse Muse Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 579	Originally Posted by Darat Nah, it's the illegal drugs that are suffocating people. If the police hadn't been there he would have still suffocated. I once took illegal drugs and suffocated to death. Got better though - I think these black guys are just lazy. I blame the Democrats and the benefits they hand out willy-nilly
Manger Douse Muse Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 579

3rd September 2020, 01:36 PM	#30
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,721	Originally Posted by William Parcher The medical examiner said it was a contributing factor, not that it caused his death. You made a straw man. You're the one who brought it up. There's no poison in the well that you didn't introduce.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 01:37 PM	#31
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,905	This is why cops shouldn't be called in for mental health episodes and if they happen to be, should have better training on how to safely restrain a struggling person.

3rd September 2020, 01:42 PM	#32
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,721	"Check to make sure he can breath" can't be fixed by training.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

3rd September 2020, 02:03 PM	#33
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25,769	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue You're the one who brought it up. There's no poison in the well that you didn't introduce. It was the medical examiner who mentioned PCP. I don't consider that to be poisoning a well. You made a straw man.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

3rd September 2020, 05:01 PM	#34
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,535	Originally Posted by Thermal Agreed. I'm talking about what practical steps can be taken to break a very bad culture of thuggery. This whole 'keep complaining while it keeps happening' thing kind of begs for some workable proposals. Institute a "double or nothing" policy. All complaints such as "I can't breathe" will be viewed as legitimate. Should they be found to be bogus- whatever penalty that would have been imposed for the broken law is doubled. Call it the "crying wolf" penalty, or some such.
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3rd September 2020, 05:11 PM	#35
Distracted1 Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 5,535	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Routine prosecution and disgrace would go a long way in changing the culture of policing. Impunity from meaningful consequences is a big driver in this culture of brutality. Police ought not be responding to many of these kinds of calls. Their budget should be reduced and the money should be spent on other emergency services. How do you expect that a mental health worker would have resolved this situation of the naked man on PCP , if not by calling the cops?
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3rd September 2020, 05:29 PM	#36
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,150	Originally Posted by Distracted1 Institute a "double or nothing" policy. All complaints such as "I can't breathe" will be viewed as legitimate. Should they be found to be bogus- whatever penalty that would have been imposed for the broken law is doubled. Call it the "crying wolf" penalty, or some such. How will you be bringing these dead people back to life?
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