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Tags Brad Raffensberger , donald trump , election fraud charges , Georgia elections , politics scandals

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Old 4th January 2021, 02:25 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Well, so far no one has pointed out that no such person works in elections. Recently there was another attempt to get some traction on her name, with an Instagram post purporting to be from her that was determined to be fraudulent. Also people kept saying Ruby was the blond-braided lady in the State Farm video, which they now say to be her daughter. Trump is like, check it out, it's trending, it's all over the Internet. Yes, because his conspiracist supporters are putting it there.

They wonder why no one has asked her, without realizing they don't actually know. It's not enough for them that the FBI, GBI found no wrongdoing. They want access to the data so they manipulate it, spew more garbage online and then claim "it's all over the Internet."

TBF I don't know that it's racism; it may be enough for Trump to assume malfeasance simply because they are (probably) Democrats.

This is like asking for Barack Obama's birth certificate all over again. In southern parlance I keep wanting Ga. officials to say, "With all due respect, y'all go **** yourselves."
See post #52, 53 above.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
As evil and psychotic as Trump is, it's never really been about the man himself, but the way he's pulled the window of "acceptable" political behavior so far off kilter as to render our democratic system all but useless.
Don't worry, what Republicans deem acceptable for president will change dramatically in just over two weeks.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Re: Article on Ruby Freeman (election worker Trump accused of fraud)...
Quote:
Note: I wasn't sure how reliable that the website (Niemanlab) was... I couldn't find it on mediabias. However, the author (Ben Collins) does appear to write for NBC, so I am leaning in the direction that it is legitimate.
It's extremely well-regarded, run by Harvard....
Great... so we go back to the original question...

Would Ruby Freeman be able to sue Stubby McBonespurs over his spreading of the election fraud conspiracy theory?

(again, I know that the president is protected from legal action for SOME of his activities, but this seems outside the scope of his job.)
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:07 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Great... so we go back to the original question...

Would Ruby Freeman be able to sue Stubby McBonespurs over his spreading of the election fraud conspiracy theory?

(again, I know that the president is protected from legal action for SOME of his activities, but this seems outside the scope of his job.)
It's extremely difficult to sue a politician/pubic figure in the US for defamation...more difficult than a private citizen...because actual malice has to be proved. In this case that would be almost impossible because one would have to prove that Trump didn't believe Freeman was committing fraud in the video. At this point, I don't think Trump believes she isn't. He's that far gone into denial.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:12 AM   #45
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I wonder whether there would have been negative consequences had Raffensperger just spent 10 minutes listening and then said "well, there doesn't appear to be anything new here. If you have legitimately-sourced figures you can send me I'll look in to it, but in the meantime I'm a very busy man." and then just hung up.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:21 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm wondering if this could be the first time Trump has been told "no" in any serious way.

He just can't believe what he's hearing.

Could he really encourage his followers to boycott Tuesday's election of out spite for the governor and secretary of state? Maybe some revenge at Mitch for not falling into line? I doubt it but you never know ...
I don't believe he feels any sort of party loyalty. Narcissists obsess over even the slightest perceived slight, and it doesn't seem to me to be the least bit out of character for Trump to attempt to torpedo the Republican Party if he feels they denied him his entitlement. If the Trump presidency has taught me anything, it's that two-dimensional, shallow, self-centered movie bad guys who turn on each other at the end when they lose aren't as unrealistic as they might have seemed.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:25 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I wonder whether there would have been negative consequences had Raffensperger just spent 10 minutes listening and then said "well, there doesn't appear to be anything new here. If you have legitimately-sourced figures you can send me I'll look in to it, but in the meantime I'm a very busy man." and then just hung up.
Trump would have lashed out at Raffensperger via the social media he says on tape that he doesn't care about.

Just like he did anyway.

So, it appears no, there wouldn't have been any different negative consequences.


As an aside, Raffensperger very publicly supported Trump before the elections, and told everyone that he and his family had all voted for Trump. I'm wondering if he regrets that support and those votes yet?
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:11 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I wonder whether there would have been negative consequences had Raffensperger just spent 10 minutes listening and then said "well, there doesn't appear to be anything new here. If you have legitimately-sourced figures you can send me I'll look in to it, but in the meantime I'm a very busy man." and then just hung up.
Well, then we wouldn't be having all this fun!

Still, listening to the tape, especially the pauses, I can just see Raffensperger and his lawyer just trying to find the words, looking at each other, shaking their heads, and mouthing "WTF?" throughout the conversation.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:53 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Well, then we wouldn't be having all this fun!

Still, listening to the tape, especially the pauses, I can just see Raffensperger and his lawyer just trying to find the words, looking at each other, shaking their heads, and mouthing "WTF?" throughout the conversation.


What I'm wondering is if any of these Republican officials are having a moment of true self-reflection, and realizing that this is all the end result of their decades of pandering to the CT fringe in their party. The CTs have taken over so much of their party that these officials are now cast as the bad guys in their little play, despite doing nothing more than doing their jobs in the way they were supposed to be done.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:04 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
All of this only proves that the US cannot be trusted to govern itself. We need to be put under UN authority for our own good and the world's safety.
You've clearly not spent any time among the Blue Helmets.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:18 AM   #51
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This is the "Cleta" Trump was talking to. Only the best people.

Quote:
One of the attorneys on Donald Trump’s disturbing phone call Saturday demanding that Georgia “find” votes for him is working with an organization fighting to terminate democratic elections of U.S. senators.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cleta...b6fd33110ed927
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:23 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
What I'm wondering is if any of these Republican officials are having a moment of true self-reflection, and realizing that this is all the end result of their decades of pandering to the CT fringe in their party. The CTs have taken over so much of their party that these officials are now cast as the bad guys in their little play, despite doing nothing more than doing their jobs in the way they were supposed to be done.
No, they'll just convince themselves it was OTHER Republicans who went too far, and they themselves were just walking a tough line, between survival and principle. Some of them might even be right, but only some.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:52 AM   #53
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There is a knowing and willful requirement to some of the laws. From Trump's position, he knows there was hundreds of thousands fake votes and the SoS knows and is covering it. Saying he needs to fix it or go to jail is not a threat if you believe crazy garbage.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:54 AM   #54
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Thus to avoid jail, just make sure you believe lots of crazy garbage very publicly.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:59 AM   #55
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I thought the insanity plea lands a criminal in a mental institution?
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Old 4th January 2021, 08:02 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Believe what he's saying? Can Trump even understand what he's saying? What he does, and what he tries to do, is infuriating enough. But the way he speaks...Jesus Christ. I realize it's not considered polite these days to throw this word around but Trump literally retarded? Because that's the impression I get from the rambling crap he spews out. It's not just the content, it's the way he says it as well. If my elderly relatives spoke in that fashion I'd have them checked to see if their Alzheimer's had been infected by dementia.
I got this same impression just from the quotes Woodward published in "Rage." It's even more stark in this phone call. If it was done by anyone with even an average IQ, it would have taken 10 minutes, tops, instead of an hour. Rambling and ridiculously repetitive. I'm astounded we got through the last 4 years with a child as president.
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Old 4th January 2021, 08:46 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a knowing and willful requirement to some of the laws. From Trump's position, he knows there was hundreds of thousands fake votes and the SoS knows and is covering it. Saying he needs to fix it or go to jail is not a threat if you believe crazy garbage.
This is why the law often involves a "reasonable man" definition. A person having the reasonable belief that there was election fraud would be required to make efforts to correct it, presumably by investigating and exposing the specific unlawful actions taken. Trump's belief has to be seen as an unreasonable one in that context. Also, a reasonable remedy would be for restoration of the correct number of votes placed to each candidate, after having determined, again, what specific unlawful actions were taken and what were their results. Saying that Raffensperger needs to change the result of the election without knowledge of any specific unlawful actions can never be a lawful request, especially in the light of the fact that multiple court cases have very publicly ruled that such a remedy is grossly disproportionate and unreasonable. There very quickly comes a point where "I believe crazy ****" isn't a valid defence in law.

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Old 4th January 2021, 08:49 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I thought the insanity plea lands a criminal in a mental institution?
Indeed! You are quite correct.

If an insane person commits crimes, then that person is supposed to be sent to a mental institution as opposed to a prison.

Furthermore, there is a provision in the Constitution that allows for an insane President to be removed from office.
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Old 4th January 2021, 08:50 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
This is why the law often involves a "reasonable man" definition. A person having the reasonable belief that there was election fraud would be required to make efforts to correct it, presumably by investigating and exposing the specific unlawful actions taken. Trump's belief has to be seen as an unreasonable one in that context. Also, a reasonable remedy would be for restoration of the correct number of votes placed to each candidate, after having determined, again, what specific unlawful actions were taken and what were their results. Saying that Raffensperger needs to change the result of the election without knowledge of any specific unlawful actions can never be a lawful request, especially in the light of the fact that multiple court cases have very publicly ruled that such a remedy is grossly disproportionate and unreasonable. There very quickly comes a point where "I believe crazy ****" isn't a valid defence in law.

Dave
He has no authority over Raffensperger. Asking him to change something is the limit of Trump's authority over Georgia's election.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:08 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He has no authority over Raffensperger. Asking him to change something is the limit of Trump's authority over Georgia's election.
Incitement to commit a crime is recognised by law, as is coercion through the issuing of threats.

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Old 4th January 2021, 09:12 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Incitement to commit a crime is recognised by law, as is coercion through the issuing of threats.

Dave
Bob knows this very well.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:20 AM   #62
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Whatever Bob.

Here in the real world it's a crime.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:22 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Whatever Bob.

Here in the real world it's a crime.
Trump is directing him to expose fraud (that he thinks happen and thinks the SoS is covering). That is not a crime anymore than me directing you to confess your crime to the cops.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:24 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
?

Prosecutors allow pleas to lower penalties for cooperation. Pointing that out to someone is not a crime.
Going to your next door neighbour and using threats of execution to get him to tell the police his wife has committed a capital crime, when in fact she has not, is prima facie an attempt to pervert the course of justice. That's a fairly close analogy to what Trump is doing in the phone call.

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Old 4th January 2021, 09:26 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Trump is directing him to expose fraud (that he thinks happen and thinks the SoS is covering). That is not a crime anymore than me directing you to confess your crime to the cops.
Trump is also trying to induce him, using threats of prosecution, to change the results of the election irrespective of whether he has found any evidence of fraud or not. That's the bit that looks like a serious crime.

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Old 4th January 2021, 09:29 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Trump is directing him to expose fraud (that he thinks happen and thinks the SoS is covering). That is not a crime anymore than me directing you to confess your crime to the cops.
Moreover, Trump compassionately advised Raffensperger about the legal jeopardy he (Raffensperger) faces. And people call it criminal?! I swear, Job has nothing over Trump.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:34 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The UN is a useless money hole.. It has never solved a problem...
The eradication of smallpox is one of the greatest achievments of humanity.

But, right. Money hole.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:14 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
The eradication of smallpox is one of the greatest achievments of humanity.

But, right. Money hole.
I guess you could stretch it and say the UN ( WHO ) was responsible, but if you leave out the US and the Soviet Union, it didn't happen.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:46 AM   #69
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In case no one has said it yet, kudos to Raffensperger for ignoring the impotent bleating, and for telling the President that he was factually wrong on the record. It's nice to see some spine.

Also, we taking bets on who leaked this call? Multiple parties were on it, including White House senior staff. Toss up between Trump turncoats and Georgia, IMO
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:47 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In case no one has said it yet, kudos to Raffensperger for ignoring the impotent bleating, and for telling the President that he was factually wrong on the record. It's nice to see some spine.

Also, we taking bets on who leaked this call? Multiple parties were on it, including White House senior staff. Toss up between Trump turncoats and Georgia, IMO
Based on audio quality, I think it was a recording on Raffensperger side.
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Old 4th January 2021, 10:52 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Based on audio quality, I think it was a recording on Raffensperger side.
That's my guess too. I meant if it was the Sec himself, or a subordinate acting on their own who has had it with party loyalty enough to leak what Raffensperger would have kept quiet for decorum's sake
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:00 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I guess you could stretch it and say the UN ( WHO ) was responsible, but if you leave out the US and the Soviet Union, it didn't happen.
Yes, of course, if we can say that everything good that comes out of the UN is because of its member states, then of course we can conclude that the UN is useless.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:05 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He didn't threaten. Saying someone is breaking the law is not a threat.
In context, he said to find 11,780 more votes, which was one more than they needed to win and turn the election. You cannot be instructed to find a specific number of votes to produce a desired result. It is clear instruction to fabricate evidence, albeit thinly veiled.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:06 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Trump is directing him to expose fraud (that he thinks happen and thinks the SoS is covering). That is not a crime anymore than me directing you to confess your crime to the cops.
No he's not Bob. Trump asked that the SecState find a specific number of votes. That's not asking to uncover fraud, that is a request to commit a crime.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:06 AM   #75
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In context, he said to find 11,780 more votes, which was one more than they needed to win and turn the election. You cannot be instructed to find a specific number of votes to produce a desired result. It is clear instruction to fabricate evidence, albeit thinly veiled.
There's no veil.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:08 AM   #76
Thermal
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
There's no veil.
The Emporer is not wearing a veil? I can see him wrapped in Saran wrap
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:10 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He didn't threaten. Saying someone is breaking the law is not a threat.
From: Rolling Stone
Raffensperger and Germany’s refusal to cooperate led the president to issue a vague legal threat against the secretary and his counsel, saying they were at “risk” if they did not investigate his conspiracy theories. “That’s a criminal offense,” Trump said. “And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer.”

Although Trump's threats were vague, he did use the phrase "risk to you" and brought up "criminal offence".

Given the fact that Trump is president, and has managed in the past to find Attorney Generals who have been willing to engage in shady practices on his behalf, such a statement cannot be completely ignored. (Even if such accusations are unlikely to lead to a conviction, they would still be detrimental to people's political careers.)
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:14 AM   #78
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The Emporer is not wearing a veil? I can see him wrapped in Saran wrap
Why do you do that?

Now I have mental images of naked fat Trump wrapped in Saran wrap in my head.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:15 AM   #79
Armitage72
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In context, he said to find 11,780 more votes, which was one more than they needed to win and turn the election. You cannot be instructed to find a specific number of votes to produce a desired result. It is clear instruction to fabricate evidence, albeit thinly veiled.

When I worked for an environmental testing company, doing air monitoring during asbestos abatement, my boss would say "You're going to make sure those clearance sample pass, right? I can't be any clearer on the phone." (Very subtle)
Several years after I quit, the company went out of business following multiple fraud charges against the owner. My boss and his boss started their own testing company, which later went out of business following multiple fraud charges.
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Old 4th January 2021, 11:16 AM   #80
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No he's not Bob. Trump asked that the SecState find a specific number of votes. That's not asking to uncover fraud, that is a request to commit a crime.
Above that he said they will find hundreds of thousands of fraudulent votes.

Quote:
OK, you know that. You know that. You have no doubt about that. And you will find you will be at 11,779 within minutes, because Fulton County is totally corrupt and so is she, totally corrupt.
He isn't required to ask for them to do more work uncovering truth than is necessary to change the result. We are back to if he believes it is hundreds of thousands.
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