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Tags Brad Raffensberger , donald trump , election fraud charges , Georgia elections , politics scandals

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Old 4th January 2021, 12:46 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Quote:
Would Ruby Freeman be able to sue Stubby McBonespurs over his spreading of the election fraud conspiracy theory?
Has it actually been established that a person/poll worker/whatever named Ruby Freeman actually exists?
The question of whether Ruby Freeman is a real person was discussed earlier in the thread.

Yes, it does appear that she is a real person. There is a reference to her in both a snopes article, and one written by a mainstream journalist appearing on a website affiliated with Harvard University. So the evidence suggests that she is a real person.

See:
Posting by Stacyhs
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:49 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No one is disputing that the president is incorrect. But if he believes he right, that complicates a few laws.
You are wrong again.

If a person commits a crime, then a person commits a crime regardless of what they happened to believe at the time that they committed the crime.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:51 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post

And, per your first paragraph, this is a completely empty threat, if it is a threat.
.
A threat from the President being empty is... an interesting idea. Especially one who has a bunch of fanatics out there willing to harass anyone seen as crossing that President.

The point is that this is not a legitimate phone call. He is not talking to a person who is his subordinate. This isn't a "do your job" call.

He might as well be calling me at work and telling me that if I don't stop posting I'm breaking the law and putting myself at legal risk. He isn't right and has no legal authority to do anything about it, but if that call and threat didn't scare the crap out of me I'd be a total moron. If he complained about it on twitter and gave my name it would be enough to totally ruin my life.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:51 PM   #124
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A little more background on Trump's perfect call to the fine folks in Georgia...

From: The Daily Beast
President Donald Trump’s now-notorious call with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger was the 19th time the White House had tried to reach the state official since the election...

Wow, they managed to duck a phone call with Stubby McBonespurs over a dozen times. I wonder what finally made them decide to actually talk to him?

I think that speaks volumes about just how much influence and respect Trump actually has among people.
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Old 4th January 2021, 12:56 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The question of whether Ruby Freeman is a real person was discussed earlier in the thread.

Yes, it does appear that she is a real person. There is a reference to her in both a snopes article, and one written by a mainstream journalist appearing on a website affiliated with Harvard University. So the evidence suggests that she is a real person.

See:
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Thanks but I saw those already and we seem to get in to "historical Jesus" territory pretty quickly. In any event, I've decided it's a bad question to ask since I don't want her (or anyone confused with "her") to have her personal details spread further across the internet.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:05 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Quote:
The question of whether Ruby Freeman is a real person was discussed earlier in the thread.

Yes, it does appear that she is a real person. There is a reference to her in both a snopes article, and one written by a mainstream journalist appearing on a website affiliated with Harvard University.
Thanks but I saw those already and we seem to get in to "historical Jesus" territory pretty quickly.
The article written by the journalist (and appearing in the Harvard article) goes into some pretty detailed information about her life. So it appears to be more than just "historical jebus" type beliefs.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:06 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

I think that speaks volumes about just how much influence and respect Trump actually has among people.

It also raises the interesting question of how this gets dodged 18 times. The logistics of it.

I mean, you can only be in a meeting or whatever so often before it becomes obvious.

If my secretary told me that the President was on the line and I told her to tell him I was in a meeting and I can't take the call, well, that would be a flex of orgasmic proportions. Talk about adrenaline... how do you come down from that one?
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:07 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It also raises the interesting question of how this gets dodged 18 times. The logistics of it.

I mean, you can only be in a meeting or whatever so often before it becomes obvious.

If my secretary told me that the President was on the line and I told her to tell him I was in a meeting and I can't take the call, well, that would be a flex of orgasmic proportions. Talk about adrenaline... how do you come down from that one?
“Tell him again that I’m in an important meeting”
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:08 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
That hardly applies in a case where a sitting President is threatening someone in order to get that someone to use the powers of his office to over-turn an election that was both fairly and legally done so that the over-turned election would benefit the sitting President who is doing the threatening.
But the post I responded to was generic...not specific.

I referenced one reputable lawyer that think intent is probably an issue.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:09 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It amazes me that otherwise smart people just don't get that the best way to get rid of a troll is not to feed him. Giving him attention of any kind id just what he wants.
I know better. Sucked into the Bob vortex.

The only reason I addressed it is because you just know, some die hard Trump supporter would probably make the same inane argument.

To start with, EVERYTHING about the phone call is wrong.

Trump has no business contacting and advising the Secretary of State about the election or the laws. He is a stakeholder in the election. That is an obvious conflict of interest. The Georgia SecState knows what his job is and he has lawyers that work for him and his department. He doesn't need Trump to advise him on the law. Keep in mind, that Trump not only asks for a specific result, he makes veiled threats and appeals to party.

This all goes to state of mind. What would a reasonable person believe what is going on?

Bob doesn't do "reasonable".
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's extremely difficult to sue a politician/pubic figure in the US for defamation...more difficult than a private citizen...because actual malice has to be proved. In this case that would be almost impossible because one would have to prove that Trump didn't believe Freeman was committing fraud in the video. At this point, I don't think Trump believes she isn't. He's that far gone into denial.
You've got that backwards. It would be hard for Trump to sue for defamation because he's a public figure. Ruby Freeman is not a public figure- although it's somewhat possible that a court might rule that she's a "limited" public figure. He has accused a private citizen of a crime. That private citizen doesn't have to meet the actual malice standard.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:10 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know better. Sucked into the Bob vortex.

The only reason I addressed it is because you just know, some die hard Trump supporter would probably make the same inane argument.

To start with, EVERYTHING about the phone call is wrong.

Trump has no business contacting and advising the Secretary of State about the election or the laws. He is a stakeholder in the election. That is an obvious conflict of interest. The Georgia SecState knows what his job is and he has lawyers that work for him and his department. He doesn't need Trump to advise him on the law. Keep in mind, that Trump not only asks for a specific result, he makes veiled threats and appeals to party.

This all goes to state of mind. What would a reasonable person believe what is going on?

Bob doesn't do "reasonable".
Good observations. Reasonableness is a cop out


ETA: lawyers for both sides were on the call. That would probably be the context of getting a stakeholder on a call with an official.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 4th January 2021 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:11 PM   #133
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Re: Georgia officials ducking Trump's calls...
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
It also raises the interesting question of how this gets dodged 18 times. The logistics of it.

I mean, you can only be in a meeting or whatever so often before it becomes obvious.

If my secretary told me that the President was on the line and I told her to tell him I was in a meeting and I can't take the call, well, that would be a flex of orgasmic proportions. Talk about adrenaline... how do you come down from that one?
The President is calling...
Tell him
... I am in a meeting
... I have to go home to feed the cat
... I have to go take care of my sick parakeet
... I have to go feed the parakeet to the cat
... I am on the toilet.
... I am washing my hair
... I am washing my hair while on the toilet
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:13 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
That hardly applies in a case where a sitting President is threatening someone in order to get that someone to use the powers of his office to over-turn an election that was both fairly and legally done so that the over-turned election would benefit the sitting President who is doing the threatening.
heh

Originally Posted by George Costanza
"Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frowned upon, you know, ‘cause I've worked in a lot of offices and I tell you people do that all the time."
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:14 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Re: Georgia officials ducking Trump's calls...

The President is calling...
Tell him
... I am in a meeting
... I have to go home to feed the cat
... I have to go take care of my sick parakeet
... I have to go feed the parakeet to the cat
... I am on the toilet.
... I am washing my hair
... I am washing my hair while on the toilet
... I'd rather wash the toilet with my hair.

Dave
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:26 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
“Tell him again that I’m in an important meeting”
All I would hope for is that someone was actually in the office when this happened.

I mean, the look on their face when they hear me say "The President? Again? Can you tell him I'm in an important meeting" and see me hang up the phone with an exasperated manner and then asking "I'm sorry. Where were we?"
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:28 PM   #137
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Mark Hamill just tweeted that listening to the Trump tape is like discovering a long lost episode of "The Sopranos".
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:36 PM   #138
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Gabe Sterling tore it up today, point by point, crazy theory by crazy theory. Anyone spouting ct's about the GA vote count needs to watch that before posting again.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:39 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The DoJ can normally leverage their broad discretionary power to compel suspects.
Which is totally irrelevant.

Once again: The threat was (to paraphrase)... "I am president, along with the authority that comes with it, including a compliant Attorney General. Do as I say, by finding a way to make me win the election, or the United States justice department could go after YOU, the Secretary of State of Georgia".

Quote:
And you think someone could prove beyond a reasonable doubt Trump doesn't believe hundreds of thousands illegal votes?
Trump claims to be well informed and a "genius" with a great memory. He has repeated those things on many occasions.

The arguments that Trump had been making in the call (the "dead people voting", the "election worker engaging in fraud", etc.) had already been debunked. The president would have access to that information (both through official government channels, and through the mass media) that those claims were debunked.

So there are 2 options:
- Trump realizes his claims of election fraud are bunk (because he would have had access to that information) but is still repeating them, which would offer no protection
- He doesn't realize his claims are bunk, in which case he is engaging in willful ignorance (which also probably doesn't provide any protection)
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:41 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And you think someone could prove beyond a reasonable doubt Trump doesn't believe hundreds of thousands illegal votes?
So reasonableness does matter.

The question is what is a reasonable interpretation of Trump's intent? Is it to uncover illegal votes or is it to coerce the Secretary of State find just enough votes to overturn the election? Trump cajoled, begged, appealed to party and threatened the Georgia Secretary to do the latter.

That Trump couched it all in mob-speak does not matter. If you add this call into all of Trumps tweets and verbal the intent is clear. That is, if one is being reasonable.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:43 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
Gabe Sterling tore it up today, point by point, crazy theory by crazy theory. Anyone spouting ct's about the GA vote count needs to watch that before posting again.
Do you have a link?
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:45 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then Bob shouldn't be here, not kept around just to be ignored.
There is no requirement to be some level of reasonable. I can employ higher levels of scrutiny.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:46 PM   #143
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It just ended a few minutes ago, here's a sample that's already up.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...sot-vpx-nr.cnn
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:47 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
Gabe Sterling tore it up today, point by point, crazy theory by crazy theory. Anyone spouting ct's about the GA vote count needs to watch that before posting again.
He doesn't provide evidence for claims. He says things are not true, but those are just more claims.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:48 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So there are 2 options:
- Trump realizes his claims of election fraud are bunk (because he would have had access to that information) but is still repeating them, which would offer no protection
- He doesn't realize his claims are bunk, in which case he is engaging in willful ignorance (which also probably doesn't provide any protection)
A third option is that he's out of his ******* mind and utterly unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:48 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
Gabe Sterling tore it up today, point by point, crazy theory by crazy theory. Anyone spouting ct's about the GA vote count needs to watch that before posting again.
That was the best debunking job I've ever seen. An impressive handling of the facts, mostly off the top of his head. Clear and concise. It's a great example that it takes 10 times as much effort to debunk a claim than it does to make it. (I'm glad he talked fast, or that could have dragged on for twice as long.)

And, apropos of nothing, that guy sure looks like Roger Ebert! (At least, as I remember him.)
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:48 PM   #147
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Thanks for your input Bob!
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:52 PM   #148
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Trump is likely to blow twitter up today after that, I may have to watch his rally later.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:55 PM   #149
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Can anyone explain to me what Trump meant when he said "...11780 votes, which is one more than we have..."?

Does he mean "which is one more than we need?" I don't get it.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:57 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Quote:
So there are 2 options:
- Trump realizes his claims of election fraud are bunk (because he would have had access to that information) but is still repeating them, which would offer no protection
- He doesn't realize his claims are bunk, in which case he is engaging in willful ignorance (which also probably doesn't provide any protection)
A third option is that he's out of his ******* mind and utterly unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.
That's possible too.

But, as I stated before, his constant claims of how smart he is, plus the rather strict definition of "insanity" suggests that he probably wouldn't be able to use that as a defense.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:57 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is no requirement to be some level of reasonable. I can employ higher levels of scrutiny.
There is for me. Absolutes are unattainable.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:00 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Can anyone explain to me what Trump meant when he said "...11780 votes, which is one more than we have..."?

Does he mean "which is one more than we need?" I don't get it.
Affirmative. Frankly, if it were me, I would ask for like 27 more than we need just because there would probably have to be another recount and they would somehow find some more for ******* Biden!
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:00 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Can anyone explain to me what Trump meant when he said "...11780 votes, which is one more than we have..."?

Does he mean "which is one more than we need?" I don't get it.
You don't? Just enough to change the Georgia State election results.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:11 PM   #154
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Trump seems to think that you settle a dispute over a false claim by agreeing that only some of the votes be considered fraudulent. Like it's a price negotiation.

"Hey, I can stop saying 400,000 votes were fraud if you say 15,000 were."

Of course, he won't stop saying that, but it's a show of how he's thinking of the situation.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:22 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Trump seems to think that you settle a dispute over a false claim by agreeing that only some of the votes be considered fraudulent. Like it's a price negotiation.

"Hey, I can stop saying 400,000 votes were fraud if you say 15,000 were."

Of course, he won't stop saying that, but it's a show of how he's thinking of the situation.
That is about the only thing that makes sense to me as well.

After all, Trump has spent his entire life being a liar, being a stupid, idiotic, lying, shellfish, spoiled brat. In short, Trump is a horrible person and he knows it.

As a result, he always assumes that everyone else who obtains more power and/or money than him must be even more of a 'Trump' than Trump himself.

Therefore, if Trump gets booted, then he will always assume that the booting was the product of someone like himself and that the way to get back on top is to repeat his past behavior with much greater volume and much greater vigor.
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On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:23 PM   #156
Minoosh
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OK, another thing unhinged about that phone call:

Flipping Georgia doesn't do it for Trump. It doesn't even come close. Any communication he has with Pennsylvania is going to be 10 times worse if it hasn't already been. (Frankly I can't keep up, which is his goal).

But should he be about 1000 times as incensed at Mitch McConnell and even Lindsey Graham declining to join Ted Cruz's sideshow? They after all, in Trump's mind are refusing to take a stand and do the right thing. It doesn't matter if Georgia caves and finds Trump's 12,000 votes. Is Pennsylvania going to find hundreds of thousands of votes? Are any of the states Trump thinks are in play wavering one least little bit? And I'm not talking about some loony legislators - every legislature has those, even the U.S. Senate. Why won't McConnell agree to a 10-day security audit or whatever Trump is calling it? Why won't Lindsey Graham and Tom Cotton hit "pause"?

Per Newsweek:

Tom Cotton Joins Lindsey Graham To Break With Donald Trump-Backing GOP Senators

That's how Trump is going to see it.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:28 PM   #157
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
That's possible too.

But, as I stated before, his constant claims of how smart he is, plus the rather strict definition of "insanity" suggests that he probably wouldn't be able to use that as a defense.
Under the widely observed M'Naghten rule:

Quote:
... that every man is to be presumed to be sane, and ... that to establish a defence on the ground of insanity, it must be clearly proved that, at the time of the committing of the act, the party accused was labouring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing; or if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong.[1]:632
The statutes will vary from state to state, province to province etc. But I think Trump could very well qualify. He won't have to, of course.

In my state we have a "guilty, although insane" option, so it wouldn't help.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:31 PM   #158
CORed
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Believe what he's saying? Can Trump even understand what he's saying? What he does, and what he tries to do, is infuriating enough. But the way he speaks...Jesus Christ. I realize it's not considered polite these days to throw this word around but Trump literally retarded? Because that's the impression I get from the rambling crap he spews out. It's not just the content, it's the way he says it as well. If my elderly relatives spoke in that fashion I'd have them checked to see if their Alzheimer's had been infected by dementia.
Listening to trump speak is what makes me wonder how anybody with a shred of intelligence or education can think he's anything other than both stupid and ignorant. Trump supporters love to claim that it's the mainstream news media "miscontruing" or "taking out of context" what he's saying. ********: There is no context that makes it not stupid, nor can you "misconstrue" crap that doesn't actually make sense at all. The guy is a blithering, babbling idiot.

The classic example of this is the infamous suggestion that disinfectants might be used internally to treat Covid-19. If there was one statement or action that lead to Trump's loss of the election, that was it. I watched that entire briefing, and and that particular question was every bit as stupid as the news media portrayed it, and there was no context that made it not stupid. And yes, the topic being discussed was things like bleach or Lysol, that are quite effective at killing viruses and other pathogens, and equally effective at destroying human tissue.

At this point, I'm sticking with my hypothesis is that the reason Trump got elected is that every dumbass in the country recognized him as one of their own, and voted for him. OTOH, the people who really disgust me are the ones that know he's a dumbass, and support him anyway because he cut their taxes or appointed Supreme Court Justices that they liked. I think enough of the latter group changed their minds to defeat him in the 2020 election, but there are still far too many who haven;t.

Last edited by CORed; 4th January 2021 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:38 PM   #159
Gord_in_Toronto
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And you think someone could prove beyond a reasonable doubt Trump doesn't believe hundreds of thousands illegal votes?
If he does, then when charged with something, he can plead an insanity defense. God, that guy is smart.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:38 PM   #160
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Here it is on YT.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I can't listen to the whole thing. He drives me nuts! When does he start pleading?
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