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Tags Brad Raffensberger , donald trump , election fraud charges , Georgia elections , politics scandals

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Old 4th January 2021, 02:48 PM   #161
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He's become the worst loser in history.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:48 PM   #162
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Willful ignorance was mentioned a couple of time. Would that apply here? All the examples I have found are ing the lines of, " I will not ask this drug dealer what is in this bag."

Is there anything related to the idea of being told facts and endlessly not believing them?
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:49 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Listening to trump speak is what makes me wonder how anybody with a shred of intelligence or education can think he's anything other than both stupid and ignorant. Trump supporters love to claim that it's the mainstream news media "miscontruing" or "taking out of context" what he's saying. ********: There is no context that makes it not stupid, nor can you "misconstrue" crap that doesn't actually make sense at all. The guy is a blithering, babbling idiot.
This kept throwing me: Trump claiming people had to cast provisional ballots because "they had already been voted for."

To me, "voted for" means "voted for a politician." For Trump it means, "Someone had already cast a ballot in the voter's name."

Grown men were crying over this, or something.

Never mind that he had called on his voters to do *exactly this* to prove how corrupt mail-in balloting is. Maybe that explains it.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:53 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there anything related to the idea of being told facts and endlessly not believing them?
It suggests that the people trying to convince Trump with facts are insane.
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Old 4th January 2021, 02:55 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by bam View Post
Thanks for your input Bob!
New to this site, I see......
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:05 PM   #166
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Another precious moment: "Ballots are being shredded!"

Ballots from past elections, apparently. But as soon as they say it, "I'm not buying it!"

(paraphrase - I can't dive back into that nutterguff)
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:07 PM   #167
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There is a good article in Slate Magazine concerning the now famous Trump/Raffensperger phone call.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ensperger.html

Donald Trump Should Be Prosecuted for His Shakedown of Georgia’s Brad Raffensperger

President Donald Trump likely broke both federal and state law in a Saturday phone call during which he encouraged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to “find” enough votes to overturn the state’s election results. ...

Aside from being impeachable conduct, Trump’s actions likely violate federal and Georgia law. A federal statute makes it a crime when one “knowingly and willfully … attempts to deprive or defraud the residents of a State of a fair and impartially conducted election process, by … the procurement, casting, or tabulation of ballots that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held.” A Georgia statute similarly provides that a “person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct.”

...
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:10 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That was the best debunking job I've ever seen. An impressive handling of the facts, mostly off the top of his head. Clear and concise. It's a great example that it takes 10 times as much effort to debunk a claim than it does to make it. (I'm glad he talked fast, or that could have dragged on for twice as long.)

And, apropos of nothing, that guy sure looks like Roger Ebert! (At least, as I remember him.)
Yes, he did. And to say he provided no evidence is ridiculous. He explained the "Ruby Freeman" video and why all of Trump's claims were wrong. It's amazing how some people just don't hear those explanation. I've heard of willful ignorance but willful deafness?
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:14 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
There is a good article in Slate Magazine concerning the now famous Trump/Raffensperger phone call.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...ensperger.html

Donald Trump Should Be Prosecuted for His Shakedown of Georgia’s Brad Raffensperger

President Donald Trump likely broke both federal and state law in a Saturday phone call during which he encouraged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to “find” enough votes to overturn the state’s election results. ...

Aside from being impeachable conduct, Trump’s actions likely violate federal and Georgia law. A federal statute makes it a crime when one “knowingly and willfully … attempts to deprive or defraud the residents of a State of a fair and impartially conducted election process, by … the procurement, casting, or tabulation of ballots that are known by the person to be materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent under the laws of the State in which the election is held.” A Georgia statute similarly provides that a “person commits the offense of criminal solicitation to commit election fraud in the first degree when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony under this article, he or she solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct.”

...
It brings up the same problems with all trump stuff

Quote:
Trump is the rare potential criminal defendant to have plausible deniability about whether he accepts truths as clear as gravity, making any prosecution difficult.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:48 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It brings up the same problems with all trump stuff
"Trump is the rare potential criminal defendant to have plausible deniability about whether he accepts truths as clear as gravity, making any prosecution difficult."
I don't buy it. Trump isn't the brightest bulb, but he KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:48 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
..the people who really disgust me are the ones that know he's a dumbass, and support him anyway because he cut their taxes or appointed Supreme Court Justices that they liked.
Just hypothetically speaking, how would you feel about someone who believed their choice was between a witch or a clown, and that a clown President would be more fun for the next four years?
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:08 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Just hypothetically speaking, how would you feel about someone who believed their choice was between a witch or a clown, and that a clown President would be more fun for the next four years?
In this analogy, does the clown sodomize minorities with pineapples, and the witch push for affordable health care?
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:10 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Just hypothetically speaking, how would you feel about someone who believed their choice was between a witch or a clown, and that a clown President would be more fun for the next four years?
I'd choose a competent witch I may personally dislike over an incompetent, pathological lying, sociopath POS with the morals of rutting pig any day.
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:13 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Can anyone explain to me what Trump meant when he said "...11780 votes, which is one more than we have..."?

Does he mean "which is one more than we need?" I don't get it.
Most likely.

He also misspoke a few times in that call saying Trump when he meant Biden.
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Old 4th January 2021, 04:16 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Trump seems to think that you settle a dispute over a false claim by agreeing that only some of the votes be considered fraudulent. Like it's a price negotiation.

"Hey, I can stop saying 400,000 votes were fraud if you say 15,000 were."

Of course, he won't stop saying that, but it's a show of how he's thinking of the situation.
Meadows is making the argument today they were doing just that. He said there were 2 lawsuits against Raffensperger and this discussion was about settling the lawsuits out of court.

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Old 4th January 2021, 04:28 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Meadows is making the argument today they were doing just that. He said there were 2 lawsuits against Raffensperger and this discussion was about settling the lawsuits out of court.

What lawsuits? The one dismissed today sought to put a temporary injunction on procedures for the Senate runoff tomorrow.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:00 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Believe what he's saying? Can Trump even understand what he's saying? What he does, and what he tries to do, is infuriating enough. But the way he speaks...Jesus Christ. I realize it's not considered polite these days to throw this word around but Trump literally retarded? Because that's the impression I get from the rambling crap he spews out. It's not just the content, it's the way he says it as well. If my elderly relatives spoke in that fashion I'd have them checked to see if their Alzheimer's had been infected by dementia.
I've been concerned about this possibility ever since 2019, when he told us all about how the American Revolutionary Army '...manned the air, rammed the ramparts, (and) took over the airports...'... in 1775!
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Listening to trump speak is what makes me wonder how anybody with a shred of intelligence or education can think he's anything other than both stupid and ignorant. Trump supporters love to claim that it's the mainstream news media "miscontruing" or "taking out of context" what he's saying. ********: There is no context that makes it not stupid, nor can you "misconstrue" crap that doesn't actually make sense at all. The guy is a blithering, babbling idiot.

The classic example of this is the infamous suggestion that disinfectants might be used internally to treat Covid-19. If there was one statement or action that lead to Trump's loss of the election, that was it. I watched that entire briefing, and and that particular question was every bit as stupid as the news media portrayed it, and there was no context that made it not stupid. And yes, the topic being discussed was things like bleach or Lysol, that are quite effective at killing viruses and other pathogens, and equally effective at destroying human tissue.

At this point, I'm sticking with my hypothesis is that the reason Trump got elected is that every dumbass in the country recognized him as one of their own, and voted for him. OTOH, the people who really disgust me are the ones that know he's a dumbass, and support him anyway because he cut their taxes or appointed Supreme Court Justices that they liked. I think enough of the latter group changed their minds to defeat him in the 2020 election, but there are still far too many who haven;t.
It's crazy, it's like watching Michael Scott try and think of an idea. It's so insane and stupid, it would be hilarious if it wasn't the real life president of the US. On SNL they just dress Alec Baldwin up like him and have him renact things and repeat things he's literally said and done in the exact same context as they occurred.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:25 PM   #179
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I keep reading about the "leaked" tape. Was it leaked? There's a difference between leaking and releasing. The Georgia SoS recorded it, and turned it over to the media, I think. That's not leaking. Maybe if he did it anonymously?
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:31 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I keep reading about the "leaked" tape. Was it leaked? There's a difference between leaking and releasing. The Georgia SoS recorded it, and turned it over to the media, I think. That's not leaking. Maybe if he did it anonymously?
i'd consider it released if someone confirms they're the source, otherwise it may have been purposeful or not. i think it's pretty likely he's the source, but i could see why he'd maybe not want the kind of attention he'd get by affirming that publicly
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:37 PM   #181
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Did this phone call change things?

I'd argue that this call changed the political environment a lot going into the count on Monday. I think it absolutely takes the wind out of the sails of the Republicans challenging the votes. Sure, they still will challenge the votes but the debate is going to make them look awful. I bet more than a few Senators are questioning their decision to challenge the vote.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:43 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I keep reading about the "leaked" tape. Was it leaked? There's a difference between leaking and releasing. The Georgia SoS recorded it, and turned it over to the media, I think. That's not leaking. Maybe if he did it anonymously?
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:56 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I keep reading about the "leaked" tape. Was it leaked? There's a difference between leaking and releasing. The Georgia SoS recorded it, and turned it over to the media, I think. That's not leaking. Maybe if he did it anonymously?
There has already been a charge that it was unethical to tape the conversation and 'leak' it.

I didn't hear anything on the call that said it was an attorney-client privileged discussion.
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Old 4th January 2021, 05:58 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'd argue that this call changed the political environment a lot going into the count on Monday. I think it absolutely takes the wind out of the sails of the Republicans challenging the votes. Sure, they still will challenge the votes but the debate is going to make them look awful. I bet more than a few Senators are questioning their decision to challenge the vote.


I think it made those idiot legislators who will be siding with Trump on Wednesday look all the more stupid.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:04 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


I think it made those idiot legislators who will be siding with Trump on Wednesday look all the more stupid.
Seriously, how do you defend their position? My guess is that aides for Democrats are preparing some nice juicy ammunition to rip this thing apart.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:16 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'd argue that this call changed the political environment a lot going into the count on Monday. I think it absolutely takes the wind out of the sails of the Republicans challenging the votes. Sure, they still will challenge the votes but the debate is going to make them look awful. I bet more than a few Senators are questioning their decision to challenge the vote.
I think I can probably count on the fingers of one foot the number of Trump believers whose minds have been changed.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


I think it made those idiot legislators who will be siding with Trump on Wednesday look all the more stupid.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Seriously, how do you defend their position? My guess is that aides for Democrats are preparing some nice juicy ammunition to rip this thing apart.
You guys seem to be in violent agreement. The Trumpers will look stupid. Smarter people will rip them apart. The Fox News crowd won't care.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:27 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There has already been a charge that it was unethical to tape the conversation and 'leak' it.

I didn't hear anything on the call that said it was an attorney-client privileged discussion.

even if there was, the call was not privileged as there was a third party present, so no expectation of privacy.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:28 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I think I can probably count on the fingers of one foot the number of Trump believers whose minds have been changed.


You guys seem to be in violent agreement. The Trumpers will look stupid. Smarter people will rip them apart. The Fox News crowd won't care.
True Trumpers won't care. But not everyone who voted for Trump fit that description.

Are these Senators and Representatives going to object to Arizona and go into a two hour debate where they don't have the facts or the numbers on their side and then do it again for Georgia, then Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin?

I figure they might challenge a couple of States but this is going to run out of gas and they are not going to look good.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:55 PM   #189
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Loeffler said she will vote to reject the elecotiral college results.
Could backfire on her.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:59 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Loeffler said she will vote to reject the elecotiral college results.
Could backfire on her.
As much as I wish that were true, it won't.

I'm not saying she will win or lose the election, I don't believe it will matter. She was already going to live or die with Trump. Most of the votes in Georgia have already been cast.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:02 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
True Trumpers won't care. But not everyone who voted for Trump fit that description...
Based on some reading I've been doing, I think this is the situation:

True trumpers WILL care and will continue to support trump 100%. Reason and logic don't matter to the true believers. It's the rest of the 74 million people who voted for trump who won't care. That's why I concluded yesterday -stick a fork in us, we're done.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:02 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
As much as I wish that were true, it won't.

I'm not saying she will win or lose the election, I don't believe it will matter. She was already going to live or die with Trump. Most of the votes in Georgia have already been cast.
I disagree, I think quite a few will be cast tommorow.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:03 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
even if there was, the call was not privileged as there was a third party present, so no expectation of privacy.
Some of the Trumpers are arguing that because it was POTUS, it somehow is top secret.

I know that is bull. But there you are.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:05 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I disagree, I think quite a few will be cast tommorow.
Maybe you're right. I'm just saying that she already proved she was a lackey.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:05 PM   #195
dudalb
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Based on some reading I've been doing, I think this is the situation:

True trumpers WILL care and will continue to support trump 100%. Reason and logic don't matter to the true believers. It's the rest of the 74 million people who voted for trump who won't care. That's why I concluded yesterday -stick a fork in us, we're done.
That is assuming that all 74 Million are die hard Trumpers..something I don't buy.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:14 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Based on some reading I've been doing, I think this is the situation:

True trumpers WILL care and will continue to support trump 100%. Reason and logic don't matter to the true believers. It's the rest of the 74 million people who voted for trump who won't care. That's why I concluded yesterday -stick a fork in us, we're done.
No. I don't buy that. I'm a little more optimistic. You and I and most of the people in this forum are political junkies. Most people at best are semi-informed at best. This includes the vast majority on both sides.

The problem facing this country is the blatant disinformation. How do we keep freedom of speech and curtail the disinformation. Trump and all this is a warning. We have to clean up our act. If not, you're right.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:21 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No. I don't buy that. I'm a little more optimistic. You and I and most of the people in this forum are political junkies. Most people at best are semi-informed at best. This includes the vast majority on both sides.

The problem facing this country is the blatant disinformation. How do we keep freedom of speech and curtail the disinformation. Trump and all this is a warning. We have to clean up our act. If not, you're right.
I'd say most people on this forum, with a few exceptions, also have an above average IQ. I can't say that for most people, especially for die hard Trump supporters. Have you listened to those interviewed at Trump rallies? I'm surprised they can find their way there without getting lost. Several times.
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:57 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'd say most people on this forum, with a few exceptions, also have an above average IQ. I can't say that for most people, especially for die hard Trump supporters. Have you listened to those interviewed at Trump rallies? I'm surprised they can find their way there without getting lost. Several times.
I don't disagree with your assessment. Not so sure about me however.

It's a fact that college educated voters have been breaking Democrat. And Whites without degrees break towards Trump. Its important to turn that around. These people are ignorantly voting against their own interests.

But the biggest mistake we can make is to mock them or point this out. It might be true, but it causes them to only harden their position.
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Old 4th January 2021, 08:13 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by carlosy View Post
Can anyone explain to me what Trump meant when he said "...11780 votes, which is one more than we have..."?

Does he mean "which is one more than we need?" I don't get it.
He meant that "we have" 11779 votes and "11780 votes" is "one more than we have".

Trump talk funny.
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Old 4th January 2021, 08:15 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Believe what he's saying? Can Trump even understand what he's saying? What he does, and what he tries to do, is infuriating enough. But the way he speaks...Jesus Christ. I realize it's not considered polite these days to throw this word around but Trump literally retarded? Because that's the impression I get from the rambling crap he spews out. It's not just the content, it's the way he says it as well. If my elderly relatives spoke in that fashion I'd have them checked to see if their Alzheimer's had been infected by dementia.
I read Cohen's book. He has always been that. He is not very smart. He does grasp the things he can leverage, as the bigger player in business. He does not understand a presidency. he has only one approach to anything. If it is business, sometimes he wins. he has some clue about lawyers, but only in business.
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