Trump Pressures GA Sec Of State To Change Election Results - Page 8

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Ronald Reagan spent so much on military spending that a graduating electrical engineer was almost forced to work on military programs in order to find a job. That affected my life personally.

ETA: The above is offered as an illustration of how a president can affect your life, even indirectly.

Just to play Devil's Advocate : things happened during the Reagan Administration which have shaped the world today (with its gross and growing inequality) but they weren't his doing, nor of his instigation. Much the same can be said of Bush Jr. They were just the smiling faces bringing in the votes. Presidents who have an active influence are few and far between. I think Obama qualifies, but it's debatable. Biden won't be. Kamala Harris maybe? I'll try to hang in long enough to find out.

wareyin · 5th January 2021, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

And you suggested I didn't have a sense of humor..

No, I said the hypothetical voter who thought it would be funny to vote for Trump has no sense of humor. Doing stupid things to hurt yourself and others isn't funny.

Skeptical Greg · 5th January 2021, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Lets see. Reagan raised the rate of FICA taxes. He doubled it. This led to a larger percentage of my weekly check taken out. My brother lost his home to his skyrocketing interest rates on his ARM and the mortgage crash.

My eldest brother went to Vietnam because of LBJ.
I haven't needed Medicare but someday I might. That was created by LBJ.
Carter ended the redlining in home mortgages.
Carter deregulated the Airlines which made travel both more inexpensive and less comfortable.

There are foreign policy decisions that affects food and fuel prices.

The cost of automobiles. Jobs in manufacturing being shipped abroad. Eisenhower created the Interstate Highway Act. That created millions of jobs and made travel easy. FDR created Social Security.

Care for me to go on? I can.

As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..
And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things.

I would have found a 2nd term for Trump disappointing, but again, not changing my life measurably.

I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they don't have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ...

( P.S.)

You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war...

Meadmaker · 5th January 2021, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Good example..
I do not have anything similar to have happened to me.

I wrote an answer related to the Affordable Care Act, but decided it was off topic for the thread.

I do agree with part of your general statements and attitude about the POTUS or other elected officials. People worry too much about them. Yes, they affect our lives, but regardless of who occupies the White House or the Senate, we can still muddle through. I lived through Democrats, Republicans, and whatever the hell Trump is. It isn't the most important thing in the world.

However, on this thread's topic, one thing that I am absolutely certain of is that whoever occupies the White House, it had better be the person chosen in the rules of a fair and free election, and Donald Trump is trying to subvert that by pressuring election officials from Georgia and elsewhere to lie about how many votes were cast for which candidate. Neither he nor anyone who supports that effort ought to be cut any slack. For the rank and file, Joe Average from Sandusky who has been duped by the lies, I'll cut him a little bit of slack because some of those people are just too stupid to understand what's going on. For the elected officials, though, there is no excuse. Every one of them should be removed from office.

ETA: Removed by elections, unless a specific law has been broken.

Skeptical Greg · 5th January 2021, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

No, I said the hypothetical voter who thought it would be funny to vote for Trump has no sense of humor. Doing stupid things to hurt yourself and others isn't funny.

Funny you should say that, when most things we find funny, allude to someone else' stupidity or misfortune..

wareyin · 5th January 2021, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..
And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things.

I would have found a 2nd term for Trump disappointing, but again, not changing my life measurably.

I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they don't have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ...

( P.S.)

You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war...

At the risk of going further off topic, has the Coronavirus affected you personally? Has the lack of leadership, or the dismantling of the Pandemic team, or the bumbled rollout of the vaccine, or anything else Trump has been involved in affected you in any way?

Or are you one of those who thinks Trump isn't responsable for what he said and did?

Or even worse, is all this just more comedy for you?

acbytesla · 5th January 2021, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..

I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ...

( P.S.)

You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war...

Nobody does anything in a vacuum. That also wasn't part of your question.

And yes the roots of the war in Vietnam preceded LBJ. Still, there is no question that LBJ escalated the war in Vietnam which sent many young men to their deaths.

I'm not sure what your point was. Maybe, I misunderstood it. I'm saying point blank who the President is makes a huge difference on our lives whether we realize it or not.

acbytesla · 5th January 2021, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

At the risk of going further off topic, has the Coronavirus affected you personally? Has the lack of leadership, or the dismantling of the Pandemic team, or the bumbled rollout of the vaccine, or anything else Trump has been involved in affected you in any way?

Or are you one of those who thinks Trump isn't responsable for what he said and did?

Or even worse, is all this just more comedy for you?

wareyin · 5th January 2021, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Funny you should say that, when most things we find funny, allude to someone else' stupidity or misfortune..

Royal we?

Skeptical Greg · 5th January 2021, 06:06 PM

I feel pretty good about the Republicans getting bounced in Georgia.. (So far...)

Do we need a new thread for that?

I'm going to report myself for being off topic...

Skeptical Greg · 5th January 2021, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Royal we?

You don't laugh at jokes, or stand up comics?

Tell me a joke that isn't demeaning in at least some subtle way..

They exist but are hard to find..

RecoveringYuppy · 5th January 2021, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That is so weird. I thought Trump was speaking over Mitchell because she was on the Georgia side of the call supporting Raffensperger.

Was she on the Georgia side of the call but she's a Trump advisor?

Who knows where people were located but Cleta Mitchell was definitely on the Trump side of that call.

wareyin · 5th January 2021, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

You don't laugh at jokes, or stand up comics?

Tell me a joke that isn't demeaning in at least some subtle way..

They exist but are hard to find..

You claimed that all the things "we" find funny allude to someone else's stupidity or misfortune. Now your claim has shifted to being subtly demeaning. That's different, but still not by any stretch a universally accurate description.

All I can say is that when a person claims that the only things he finds funny are demeaning or hurtful, I can see why they would find electing Trump humorous.

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum..
And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things.

The ending of mortgage redlining was part of Carter's personal mission, and I do give him credit for it actually happening.

Minoosh · 5th January 2021, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If I'm unaware, what is the difference?

What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way?
Be specific. We can take them one at a time.

Do we need a new thread?

Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally.

It pretty much made me a D even though my registration is R.

Minoosh · 5th January 2021, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Who knows where people were located but Cleta Mitchell was definitely on the Trump side of that call.

She kept trying to introduce facts into the conversation which Trump was having none of.

She was getting at some interesting stuff, IMO. Having to do with not having access to Georgia's data. Having seen what Team Trump does with data, I certainly don't blame Georgia for not just bundling everything up and sending it straight to the Trump campaign.

In 2016 Trump met with a similar response from (almost?) every state when his commission looked into electoral fraud. They pretty all much told him to take a hike.

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I'm saying point blank who the President is makes a huge difference on our lives whether we realize it or not.

Often the President is merely the surface expression of a political reality which actually makes the difference. Reagan is an obvious example. Reaganism and Thatcherism weren't their invention, they were just public faces of the pro-rich Chicago School policies which buried Keynes back in '79-80. (Which has worked out just as we expected back then.)

Where Presidents make a difference is most often in small ways. Ending mortgage redlining opened the door to ending redlining of credit generally, and access to credit is a necessary requirement in the accumulation of capital. Redlining was a great hindrance to African-American progress.

RecoveringYuppy · 5th January 2021, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

She kept trying to introduce facts into the conversation which Trump was having none of.

Are you serious? Dead people voting. Ballot stuffing. Improper out of state voters. Military ballots 100% for Trump. There is a problem with Dominion voting machines. You think any of those are factual??

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally.

This did not occur in a vacuum, given that there were surely many voters just like you, but Obama did make it the defining issue of his Presidency, did believe in it, and did get something done which Republicans argued could never be undone once experienced by millions of their voters. A warning that has been justified by events.

Silly Green Monkey · 5th January 2021, 08:20 PM

Obama's mandate to get insurance meant I had coverage six months later when I found out I'd had cancer for a bit.

dirtywick · 5th January 2021, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

The President does not affect those things in a vacuum.

What do you know about Clinton's position on trade and tariffs; particularly when it comes to China?

I thought we were discussing concrete ways the president’s decisions effects people lives? Pointing out another theoretical president would have also effected your life in the same way seems like it proves the point more.

acbytesla · 5th January 2021, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Often the President is merely the surface expression of a political reality which actually makes the difference. Reagan is an obvious example. Reaganism and Thatcherism weren't their invention, they were just public faces of the pro-rich Chicago School policies which buried Keynes back in '79-80. (Which has worked out just as we expected back then.)

Where Presidents make a difference is most often in small ways. Ending mortgage redlining opened the door to ending redlining of credit generally, and access to credit is a necessary requirement in the accumulation of capital. Redlining was a great hindrance to African-American progress.

Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them.

The rest of the GOP weren't sold on them at all. Reagan's biggest competitor in the primaries was George H.W Bush. Bush coined the term "voodoo economics"to attack Reagan's proposals to increase military spending, cutting taxes and balancing the budget simultaneously.

Here's another example of a President's policy that probably had a huge effect on all of us. Nixon ended the Oak Ridge Laboratory Molten Salt Reactor Experiment in the mid 70s which is a new much safer variety of nuclear reactor.

The best thing we can do to end poverty is to create cheaper cleaner energy. And the MSR has tremendous potential Nixon's decision put that possibility 40 years behind.

Skeptic Ginger · 5th January 2021, 09:20 PM

Wait 'til Trump sees that the Senate election was going red until ~now but that won't last much longer.

acbytesla · 5th January 2021, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Wait 'til Trump sees that the Senate election was going red until ~now but that won't last much longer.

Too EARLY. I think anything supernatural is ridiculous. But I do have my superstitions.

lomiller · 5th January 2021, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them.

And for the most part they failed.

There was however another even larger change in economic policy going on at the same time. Paul Volker changed how the Fed managed the US money supply and this lead to both the early 80's recession but also the ~ 2 decades of prosperity that followed. Even though Reagan claimed the credit Volker was appointed by Carter.

Minoosh · 5th January 2021, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Are you serious? Dead people voting. Ballot stuffing. Improper out of state voters. Military ballots 100% for Trump. There is a problem with Dominion voting machines. You think any of those are factual??

In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things.

acbytesla · 5th January 2021, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

And for the most part they failed.

There was however another even larger change in economic policy going on at the same time. Paul Volker changed how the Fed managed the US money supply and this lead to both the early 80's recession but also the ~ 2 decades of prosperity that followed. Even though Reagan claimed the credit Volker was appointed by Carter.

I'm not that big of fan of Volcker. He may be the biggest reason Carter lost reelection. The Fed policies included astronomically high interest rates. You couldnt buy a home in 1980 unless it was owner financed.

CapelDodger · 5th January 2021, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them.

The rest of the GOP weren't sold on them at all. Reagan's biggest competitor in the primaries was George H.W Bush. Bush coined the term "voodoo economics"to attack Reagan's proposals to increase military spending, cutting taxes and balancing the budget simultaneously.

A great line from the failed competitor, two-term VP, and one-term President. Reagan was the expression of the underlying tide.

Chicago School policies were old hat, but they'd been held at bay by Keynesian success in the 50's and 60's. The hard days of the 70's were laid at the door of Keynes (and the permissive society, of course), and voodoo economics won the day.

acbytesla · 5th January 2021, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

A great line from the failed competitor, two-term VP, and one-term President. Reagan was the expression of the underlying tide.

Chicago School policies were old hat, but they'd been held at bay by Keynesian success in the 50's and 60's. The hard days of the 70's were laid at the door of Keynes (and the permissive society, of course), and voodoo economics won the day.

I'd love to discuss this further, but we are getting off into the weeds and it is off topic.

dudalb · 6th January 2021, 01:29 AM

Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...

HHellpop · 6th January 2021, 04:02 AM

Deleted. I'm always late to the party, and it was off-topic.

Darat · 6th January 2021, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...

Trump epitomises the adage about wrestling in the mud with a pig.

angrysoba · 6th January 2021, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...

I wonder what the phone calls to Pence will sound like.

Lothian · 6th January 2021, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...

Unless you see Trump as a democrat stooge seeing to destroy the republican party.

Random · 6th January 2021, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things.

Yeah, the 5000 dead people voting thing has been around for a while I think. IIRC, after the election, some people went on to the Georgia voter registration site and entered in the names of dead people and the year of their births (since that's the only information available on the public facing website) and found 5000 "matches". But the SoS had access to full dates of birth and SSNs, and only found two dead people voted (illegal votes cast by a Trumpist).

The Trump campaign has asked for the full data with DoBs and SSNs, for their own super special magic secret squirrel investigation, but the SoS says they can't do that since it would be illegal.

It makes a good talking point to say that the Secretary of State is blocking their investigations by failing to provide data, but there is no real reason to believe the SoS is lying, and the full data set probably would not change things in the slightest.

If you think about it though, the full data is not actually needed by the Trump campaign. There is nothing stopping them from hiring some investigators to go to the homes of the people on the voter lists and finding out if they are, in fact, dead. It would be a lot more work, but it would neatly sidestep the SoS completely. Of course, they would lose their shiny talking point, spend a lot of money, and probably not find anything, but they could do it.

gnome · 6th January 2021, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally.

It pretty much made me a D even though my registration is R.

I was voting mostly D anyway, but I'm pretty sure some of my friends are still alive because of the ACA. Or more functional instead of suffering and dependent on others.

gnome · 6th January 2021, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I'm not that big of fan of Volcker. He may be the biggest reason Carter lost reelection. The Fed policies included astronomically high interest rates. You couldnt buy a home in 1980 unless it was owner financed.

I am not sure there was a non-painful way out of "stagflation".

Ethan Thane Athen · 6th January 2021, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

Unless you see Trump as a democrat stooge seeing to destroy the republican party.

I'd love that to gain traction - would be the fastest way to turn his support against him...

Suddenly · 6th January 2021, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

I was voting mostly D anyway, but I'm pretty sure some of my friends are still alive because of the ACA. Or more functional instead of suffering and dependent on others.

(waives hand)

There is about a 50% chance I'm dead without it. Even with the ACA I was about 5% to ever be a fully functional person again, so best case if I spent that crucial two years without insurance I'm permanently disabled.

(I'm enough of a jerk to still be annoyed that with all that congressional control the ACA was the best they could do, but I gotta be me. )

Lothian · 6th January 2021, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen

I'd love that to gain traction - would be the fastest way to turn his support against him...

I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.

5th January 2021, 05:42 PM	#281
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Ronald Reagan spent so much on military spending that a graduating electrical engineer was almost forced to work on military programs in order to find a job. That affected my life personally. ETA: The above is offered as an illustration of how a president can affect your life, even indirectly. Just to play Devil's Advocate : things happened during the Reagan Administration which have shaped the world today (with its gross and growing inequality) but they weren't his doing, nor of his instigation. Much the same can be said of Bush Jr. They were just the smiling faces bringing in the votes. Presidents who have an active influence are few and far between. I think Obama qualifies, but it's debatable. Biden won't be. Kamala Harris maybe? I'll try to hang in long enough to find out.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 05:54 PM	#283
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 16,941	Originally Posted by acbytesla Lets see. Reagan raised the rate of FICA taxes. He doubled it. This led to a larger percentage of my weekly check taken out. My brother lost his home to his skyrocketing interest rates on his ARM and the mortgage crash. My eldest brother went to Vietnam because of LBJ. I haven't needed Medicare but someday I might. That was created by LBJ. Carter ended the redlining in home mortgages. Carter deregulated the Airlines which made travel both more inexpensive and less comfortable. There are foreign policy decisions that affects food and fuel prices. The cost of automobiles. Jobs in manufacturing being shipped abroad. Eisenhower created the Interstate Highway Act. That created millions of jobs and made travel easy. FDR created Social Security. Care for me to go on? I can. As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum.. And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things. I would have found a 2nd term for Trump disappointing, but again, not changing my life measurably. I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they don't have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ... ( P.S.) You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war...
	__________________ " The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. " Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 5th January 2021 at 05:58 PM.

5th January 2021, 05:56 PM	#284
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,276	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg Good example.. I do not have anything similar to have happened to me. I wrote an answer related to the Affordable Care Act, but decided it was off topic for the thread. I do agree with part of your general statements and attitude about the POTUS or other elected officials. People worry too much about them. Yes, they affect our lives, but regardless of who occupies the White House or the Senate, we can still muddle through. I lived through Democrats, Republicans, and whatever the hell Trump is. It isn't the most important thing in the world. However, on this thread's topic, one thing that I am absolutely certain of is that whoever occupies the White House, it had better be the person chosen in the rules of a fair and free election, and Donald Trump is trying to subvert that by pressuring election officials from Georgia and elsewhere to lie about how many votes were cast for which candidate. Neither he nor anyone who supports that effort ought to be cut any slack. For the rank and file, Joe Average from Sandusky who has been duped by the lies, I'll cut him a little bit of slack because some of those people are just too stupid to understand what's going on. For the elected officials, though, there is no excuse. Every one of them should be removed from office. ETA: Removed by elections, unless a specific law has been broken.
	__________________ Yes, yes. I know you're right, but would it hurt you to actually provide some information? Last edited by Meadmaker; 5th January 2021 at 05:57 PM.

5th January 2021, 06:01 PM	#285
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 16,941	Originally Posted by wareyin No, I said the hypothetical voter who thought it would be funny to vote for Trump has no sense of humor. Doing stupid things to hurt yourself and others isn't funny. Funny you should say that, when most things we find funny, allude to someone else' stupidity or misfortune..
	__________________ " The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

5th January 2021, 06:05 PM	#287
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum.. I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ... ( P.S.) You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war... Nobody does anything in a vacuum. That also wasn't part of your question. And yes the roots of the war in Vietnam preceded LBJ. Still, there is no question that LBJ escalated the war in Vietnam which sent many young men to their deaths. I'm not sure what your point was. Maybe, I misunderstood it. I'm saying point blank who the President is makes a huge difference on our lives whether we realize it or not.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

5th January 2021, 05:48 PM	#282
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,350	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg And you suggested I didn't have a sense of humor.. No, I said the hypothetical voter who thought it would be funny to vote for Trump has no sense of humor. Doing stupid things to hurt yourself and others isn't funny.

5th January 2021, 06:04 PM	#286
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,350	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum.. And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things. I would have found a 2nd term for Trump disappointing, but again, not changing my life measurably. I understand some people get passionate about the President, I just personally feel they don't have much to do with what happens in the long run; and I just can't look back and say " If it weren't for President X, my life would be a lot different/better/worse " ... ( P.S.) You need to go back further than LBJ to find blame for the Vietnam war... At the risk of going further off topic, has the Coronavirus affected you personally? Has the lack of leadership, or the dismantling of the Pandemic team, or the bumbled rollout of the vaccine, or anything else Trump has been involved in affected you in any way? Or are you one of those who thinks Trump isn't responsable for what he said and did? Or even worse, is all this just more comedy for you?

5th January 2021, 06:05 PM	#288
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by wareyin At the risk of going further off topic, has the Coronavirus affected you personally? Has the lack of leadership, or the dismantling of the Pandemic team, or the bumbled rollout of the vaccine, or anything else Trump has been involved in affected you in any way? Or are you one of those who thinks Trump isn't responsable for what he said and did? Or even worse, is all this just more comedy for you?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

5th January 2021, 06:05 PM	#289
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,350	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg Funny you should say that, when most things we find funny, allude to someone else' stupidity or misfortune.. Royal we?

5th January 2021, 06:06 PM	#290
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 16,941	I feel pretty good about the Republicans getting bounced in Georgia.. (So far...) Do we need a new thread for that? I'm going to report myself for being off topic...
	__________________ " The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

5th January 2021, 06:09 PM	#291
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 16,941	Originally Posted by wareyin Royal we? You don't laugh at jokes, or stand up comics? Tell me a joke that isn't demeaning in at least some subtle way.. They exist but are hard to find..
	__________________ " The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

5th January 2021, 06:33 PM	#292
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,773	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger That is so weird. I thought Trump was speaking over Mitchell because she was on the Georgia side of the call supporting Raffensperger. Was she on the Georgia side of the call but she's a Trump advisor? Who knows where people were located but Cleta Mitchell was definitely on the Trump side of that call.

5th January 2021, 06:41 PM	#293
wareyin Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 8,350	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg You don't laugh at jokes, or stand up comics? Tell me a joke that isn't demeaning in at least some subtle way.. They exist but are hard to find.. You claimed that all the things "we" find funny allude to someone else's stupidity or misfortune. Now your claim has shifted to being subtly demeaning. That's different, but still not by any stretch a universally accurate description. All I can say is that when a person claims that the only things he finds funny are demeaning or hurtful, I can see why they would find electing Trump humorous.

5th January 2021, 07:33 PM	#294
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg As I said above, no President did those things in a vacuum.. And my point was, that I personally did not hold a President responsible for those things. The ending of mortgage redlining was part of Carter's personal mission, and I do give him credit for it actually happening.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 07:40 PM	#295
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg If I'm unaware, what is the difference? What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way? Be specific. We can take them one at a time. Do we need a new thread? Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally. It pretty much made me a D even though my registration is R.

5th January 2021, 07:47 PM	#296
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy Who knows where people were located but Cleta Mitchell was definitely on the Trump side of that call. She kept trying to introduce facts into the conversation which Trump was having none of. She was getting at some interesting stuff, IMO. Having to do with not having access to Georgia's data. Having seen what Team Trump does with data, I certainly don't blame Georgia for not just bundling everything up and sending it straight to the Trump campaign. In 2016 Trump met with a similar response from (almost?) every state when his commission looked into electoral fraud. They pretty all much told him to take a hike.

5th January 2021, 08:01 PM	#297
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by acbytesla I'm saying point blank who the President is makes a huge difference on our lives whether we realize it or not. Often the President is merely the surface expression of a political reality which actually makes the difference. Reagan is an obvious example. Reaganism and Thatcherism weren't their invention, they were just public faces of the pro-rich Chicago School policies which buried Keynes back in '79-80. (Which has worked out just as we expected back then.) Where Presidents make a difference is most often in small ways. Ending mortgage redlining opened the door to ending redlining of credit generally, and access to credit is a necessary requirement in the accumulation of capital. Redlining was a great hindrance to African-American progress.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 08:08 PM	#298
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,773	Originally Posted by Minoosh She kept trying to introduce facts into the conversation which Trump was having none of. Are you serious? Dead people voting. Ballot stuffing. Improper out of state voters. Military ballots 100% for Trump. There is a problem with Dominion voting machines. You think any of those are factual??

5th January 2021, 08:16 PM	#299
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by Minoosh Obama wanted me to be able to buy health insurance, which was unavailable to me at any price, even excluding treatment for a pre-existing condition. It was meaningful to me personally. This did not occur in a vacuum, given that there were surely many voters just like you, but Obama did make it the defining issue of his Presidency, did believe in it, and did get something done which Republicans argued could never be undone once experienced by millions of their voters. A warning that has been justified by events.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 08:20 PM	#300
Silly Green Monkey Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,218	Obama's mandate to get insurance meant I had coverage six months later when I found out I'd had cancer for a bit.
	__________________ Normal is just a stereotype.

5th January 2021, 09:09 PM	#301
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,129	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg The President does not affect those things in a vacuum. What do you know about Clinton's position on trade and tariffs; particularly when it comes to China? I thought we were discussing concrete ways the president’s decisions effects people lives? Pointing out another theoretical president would have also effected your life in the same way seems like it proves the point more.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,129

5th January 2021, 09:16 PM	#302
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by CapelDodger Often the President is merely the surface expression of a political reality which actually makes the difference. Reagan is an obvious example. Reaganism and Thatcherism weren't their invention, they were just public faces of the pro-rich Chicago School policies which buried Keynes back in '79-80. (Which has worked out just as we expected back then.) Where Presidents make a difference is most often in small ways. Ending mortgage redlining opened the door to ending redlining of credit generally, and access to credit is a necessary requirement in the accumulation of capital. Redlining was a great hindrance to African-American progress. Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them. The rest of the GOP weren't sold on them at all. Reagan's biggest competitor in the primaries was George H.W Bush. Bush coined the term "voodoo economics"to attack Reagan's proposals to increase military spending, cutting taxes and balancing the budget simultaneously. Here's another example of a President's policy that probably had a huge effect on all of us. Nixon ended the Oak Ridge Laboratory Molten Salt Reactor Experiment in the mid 70s which is a new much safer variety of nuclear reactor. The best thing we can do to end poverty is to create cheaper cleaner energy. And the MSR has tremendous potential Nixon's decision put that possibility 40 years behind.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

5th January 2021, 09:20 PM	#303
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,988	Wait 'til Trump sees that the Senate election was going red until ~now but that won't last much longer.

5th January 2021, 09:25 PM	#304
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Wait 'til Trump sees that the Senate election was going red until ~now but that won't last much longer. Too EARLY. I think anything supernatural is ridiculous. But I do have my superstitions.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

5th January 2021, 09:33 PM	#305
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,376	Originally Posted by acbytesla Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them. And for the most part they failed. There was however another even larger change in economic policy going on at the same time. Paul Volker changed how the Fed managed the US money supply and this lead to both the early 80's recession but also the ~ 2 decades of prosperity that followed. Even though Reagan claimed the credit Volker was appointed by Carter.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

5th January 2021, 09:36 PM	#306
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy Are you serious? Dead people voting. Ballot stuffing. Improper out of state voters. Military ballots 100% for Trump. There is a problem with Dominion voting machines. You think any of those are factual?? In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things.

5th January 2021, 09:43 PM	#307
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by lomiller And for the most part they failed. There was however another even larger change in economic policy going on at the same time. Paul Volker changed how the Fed managed the US money supply and this lead to both the early 80's recession but also the ~ 2 decades of prosperity that followed. Even though Reagan claimed the credit Volker was appointed by Carter. I'm not that big of fan of Volcker. He may be the biggest reason Carter lost reelection. The Fed policies included astronomically high interest rates. You couldnt buy a home in 1980 unless it was owner financed.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

5th January 2021, 09:44 PM	#308
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,052	Originally Posted by acbytesla Electing Reagan was a huge turn in economic policy for the country. You're right the ideas didn't originate with him. Those Chicago School policies were 60 years old. Reagan sold them to the public and then implemented them. The rest of the GOP weren't sold on them at all. Reagan's biggest competitor in the primaries was George H.W Bush. Bush coined the term "voodoo economics"to attack Reagan's proposals to increase military spending, cutting taxes and balancing the budget simultaneously. A great line from the failed competitor, two-term VP, and one-term President. Reagan was the expression of the underlying tide. Chicago School policies were old hat, but they'd been held at bay by Keynesian success in the 50's and 60's. The hard days of the 70's were laid at the door of Keynes (and the permissive society, of course), and voodoo economics won the day.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

5th January 2021, 10:04 PM	#309
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,293	Originally Posted by CapelDodger A great line from the failed competitor, two-term VP, and one-term President. Reagan was the expression of the underlying tide. Chicago School policies were old hat, but they'd been held at bay by Keynesian success in the 50's and 60's. The hard days of the 70's were laid at the door of Keynes (and the permissive society, of course), and voodoo economics won the day. I'd love to discuss this further, but we are getting off into the weeds and it is off topic.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

6th January 2021, 01:29 AM	#310
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Well, that phone call seems to have backfired...
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

6th January 2021, 04:02 AM	#311
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Deleted. I'm always late to the party, and it was off-topic.
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow Last edited by HHellpop; 6th January 2021 at 04:05 AM.

6th January 2021, 04:09 AM	#312
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,067	Originally Posted by dudalb Well, that phone call seems to have backfired... Trump epitomises the adage about wrestling in the mud with a pig.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

6th January 2021, 04:32 AM	#313
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,394	Originally Posted by dudalb Well, that phone call seems to have backfired... I wonder what the phone calls to Pence will sound like.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

6th January 2021, 04:39 AM	#314
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,131	Originally Posted by dudalb Well, that phone call seems to have backfired... Unless you see Trump as a democrat stooge seeing to destroy the republican party.

6th January 2021, 05:21 AM	#315
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,220	Originally Posted by Minoosh In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things. Yeah, the 5000 dead people voting thing has been around for a while I think. IIRC, after the election, some people went on to the Georgia voter registration site and entered in the names of dead people and the year of their births (since that's the only information available on the public facing website) and found 5000 "matches". But the SoS had access to full dates of birth and SSNs, and only found two dead people voted (illegal votes cast by a Trumpist). The Trump campaign has asked for the full data with DoBs and SSNs, for their own super special magic secret squirrel investigation, but the SoS says they can't do that since it would be illegal. It makes a good talking point to say that the Secretary of State is blocking their investigations by failing to provide data, but there is no real reason to believe the SoS is lying, and the full data set probably would not change things in the slightest. If you think about it though, the full data is not actually needed by the Trump campaign. There is nothing stopping them from hiring some investigators to go to the homes of the people on the voter lists and finding out if they are, in fact, dead. It would be a lot more work, but it would neatly sidestep the SoS completely. Of course, they would lose their shiny talking point, spend a lot of money, and probably not find anything, but they could do it.
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,220	__________________ "...Am I actually watching Big Bird argue with the Egyptian God of the Dead? Is PBS sending some kind of weird religious message here?"