Trump Pressures GA Sec Of State To Change Election Results - Page 9

timhau · 6th January 2021, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.

Yes. But back then he could form coherent sentences.

Lothian · 6th January 2021, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

Yes. But back then he could form coherent sentences.

I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.

Butter! · 6th January 2021, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If I'm unaware, what is the difference?

What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way?
Be specific. We can take them one at a time.

Do we need a new thread?

I don't want to go down this ugly road, but presidents appoint supreme court judges, and if you were a woman, you might be more concerned about the current lineup therein affecting your personal life.

EDIT: Honestly though, that seems like small potatoes now. I am genuinely worried the current President has irrevocably started the collapse of this nation. Which is a problem even for solipsists, because it means we're all going to have to live in scarcity, violence, and chaos. With a pandemic going on.

I REALLY wish I were currently taking something for my anxiety.

thaiboxerken · 6th January 2021, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.

He is an A-political creature who seeks personal power over all else. He calls himself a Republican now, but many of his "policies" would not be recognized as Republican under any other POTUS. He has destroyed the GOP and I am happy for that.
However, I don't know that it was worth the cost.

slyjoe · 6th January 2021, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.

Absolutely. As someone else pointed out, he is in everything for himself.

Trump wanted to be president, and he figured out he couldn't scam democrats as easily as he could scam republicans. So, voila, he's a republican.

It was totally a means to an end. Hell even the republicans don't stand for anything except tax cuts.

Thermal · 6th January 2021, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.

He was a NY Dem when it was politically advantageous, being a NY based developer. But I think we have seen that he was always an authoritarian at heart. Well, as long as he is the one wielding the authority.

eerok · 6th January 2021, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.

That's coherent enough to speak to me.

Matthew Best · 6th January 2021, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.

FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!

Suddenly · 6th January 2021, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

It was totally a means to an end. Hell even the republicans don't stand for anything except tax cuts.

That's unfair. An awful lot of them are just racists.

RecoveringYuppy · 6th January 2021, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things.

OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"??

Darat · 6th January 2021, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"??

Depends - is she a 6 or a 9?

johnny karate · 6th January 2021, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If I'm unaware, what is the difference?

What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way?
Be specific. We can take them one at a time.

Do we need a new thread?

This seems like a wildly tone deaf question to ask with the deadliest year in American history having just ended.

ponderingturtle · 6th January 2021, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

This seems like a wildly tone deaf question to ask with the deadliest year in American history having just ended.

Only if you have empathy. Once you are a properly psychopathic person, the kind the worlds smartest person Ayn Rand viewed as the ideal human being it is easy to just forget all that.

blutoski · 6th January 2021, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past.

My observation is that he was a Republican up to the end of the 90s, at which point he changed to Libertarian and put his hat in the ring for presidential candidacy.

That didn't pan out, and during the Bush II administration, his views about involvement in foreign wars were no longer aligned to Libertarian or Republican parties, so he switched to Democratic.

This affair with Democratic Party ended when they nominated a negro for president, and he switched back to Republican.

acbytesla · 6th January 2021, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

I am not sure there was a non-painful way out of "stagflation".

I disagree. Raising interests levels that high savaged the economy. It destroyed the housing industry and did little to fight inflation. I'm definitely a Keynesian.

acbytesla · 6th January 2021, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Lothian

I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!

19 years?

Matthew Best · 6th January 2021, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

19 years?

FOUR MORE!!!

acbytesla · 6th January 2021, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

19 years?

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

FOUR MORE!!!

23?

Matthew Best · 6th January 2021, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

23?

FOUR MORE YEARS!

(I can keep this up for ages, you know.)

acbytesla · 6th January 2021, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

FOUR MORE YEARS!

(I can keep this up for ages, you know.)

LOL. I'm sure you can.

Minoosh · 6th January 2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"??

First of all, Trump was never going to let her talk. Maybe they could have established some protocol that would resolve the issue by walking her through the SoS investigation without violating any laws. I don't know. But as soon as she proposed something like that, IIRC he began talking over her. He did not want to go down the path of anything that could actually be resolved. I'm not saying she was a good guy here, although I did like her persistence in trying to get a word in edgewise.

Certainly if I were SoS I wouldn't be sharing data with the Trump cabal if I could help it, because we've seen what his supporters do with data. Again, IIRC, this matches the response states gave Trump's special commission when they were supposedly trying to investigate Trump's alleged 3 million illegal votes after the 2016 election. Not just blue states either. That commission came up with nothing.

gnome · 6th January 2021, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I disagree. Raising interests levels that high savaged the economy. It destroyed the housing industry and did little to fight inflation. I'm definitely a Keynesian.

By your reckoning, what DID turn inflation around?

RecoveringYuppy · 6th January 2021, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Maybe they could have established some protocol that would resolve the issue by walking her through the SoS investigation without violating any laws. I don't know.

So you suspect Trump is torturing her son to death with force lightning in front of her eyes?

rdaneel · 8th January 2021, 12:18 AM

And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process.

Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout

Meadmaker · 8th January 2021, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by rdaneel

And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process.

Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout

Having observed that Democrats win if more people vote, the Republicans in Georgia are trying to ensure that, next time, fewer people can vote.

They aren't even being subtle about it.

turingtest · 8th January 2021, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Having observed that Democrats win if more people vote, the Republicans in Georgia are trying to ensure that, next time, fewer people can vote.

They aren't even being subtle about it.

That is exactly right, the sticking point for the GOP. I'd been wondering (naively, I admit) why they were so opposed to a system that, after all, they had as much access to as anyone. Then I realized that it isn't that they're against a system that entitles them to an equal voice, it's that they're against a system that doesn't deny the other side a full voice.

Modified · 8th January 2021, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by rdaneel

And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process.

Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout

Don't they realize that if there is no COVID at the time of the next election, this will most quite possibly hurt them?

alfaniner · 8th January 2021, 09:10 AM

Hard to believe that this was first reported less than a week ago. Seems a lot longer.

JoeMorgue · 8th January 2021, 09:12 AM

Watching Republicans word and reword "If just let all eligible voters vote, we won't stand a chance" would be pathetic if it wasn't actually working with some people.

Have some goddamn dignity and stop shaking in fear at the idea of losing in a fair fight.

acbytesla · 8th January 2021, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

By your reckoning, what DID turn inflation around?

Two things. One, They stopped counting it. The Reagan administration changed the way the CPI was calculated. And two, most importantly, OPEC stopped raising oil prices. Go back and look. OPEC tripled oil prices in the mid seventies. I just started driving at that time and a gallon of gasoline went from 49 cents a gallon at the pump to a $1.50 in just a few short years. This led to the market responding dramatically.

My father who drove 50,000 miles a year traded in an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Sedan that may have gotten 10 mpg for a Volkswagen diesel that got 50. My dad wasn't alone.
People stopped buying gas guzzlers and instead purchased small cars. This was a big boon for Japanese and European automakers. Up until the mid seventies they sold few cars in the US

This combined with an increase of domestic oil supplies (Alaska North Slope) eased the demand and led to a stabilization, even a drop in oil prices.

OPEC countries were now fighting over a smaller pie.

Any time you dramatically increase a base commodity that figures into everything, it is going to lead to price increases in everything.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 8th January 2021, 09:49 AM

The Opening Arguments podcast next Tuesday is going to be talking about the phone call. Host and lawyer Andrew Torrez says that making and winning a criminal case from that phone call would be incredibly easy to do, to the point where he's pushing his co-host to title the episode "Donald Trump is going to prison".

Monza · 8th January 2021, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

Hard to believe that this was first reported less than a week ago. Seems a lot longer.

No kidding. On Tuesday, I was thinking this was a huge story that couldn't be pushed off the radar so easily. Once again, I underestimated the Trump-era level of corruption and stupidity.

gnome · 8th January 2021, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Two things. One, They stopped counting it. The Reagan administration changed the way the CPI was calculated. And two, most importantly, OPEC stopped raising oil prices. Go back and look. OPEC tripled oil prices in the mid seventies. I just started driving at that time and a gallon of gasoline went from 49 cents a gallon at the pump to a $1.50 in just a few short years. This led to the market responding dramatically.

My father who drove 50,000 miles a year traded in an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Sedan that may have gotten 10 mpg for a Volkswagen diesel that got 50. My dad wasn't alone.
People stopped buying gas guzzlers and instead purchased small cars. This was a big boon for Japanese and European automakers. Up until the mid seventies they sold few cars in the US

This combined with an increase of domestic oil supplies (Alaska North Slope) eased the demand and led to a stabilization, even a drop in oil prices.

OPEC countries were now fighting over a smaller pie.

Any time you dramatically increase a base commodity that figures into everything, it is going to lead to price increases in everything.

We might need a new thread for this. I am certain what you describe was a factor, but I think monetary policy can't be disregarded either as a major player.

I found this as an overall treatment.

https://www.federalreservehistory.or...reat-inflation

However, the conversation that originally convinced me on this point is here:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm

Originally Posted by Steve Kangas

Growing inflation in the 70s received two huge boosts: the first comprised the late-1973 and 1979 oil shocks from OPEC (the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries). Soaring oil prices compelled most American businesses to raise their prices as well, with inflationary results. The second boost to inflation came in the form of food harvest failures around the world, which created soaring prices on the world food market. Again, U.S. companies that imported food responded with an inflationary rise in their prices.

All this was accompanied by a growing crisis in monetary policy at the Federal Reserve. Traditionally, the Fed has fought inflation by contracting the money supply, and fought unemployment by expanding it. In the 60s, the Fed conducted an expansionary policy, accepting higher inflation in return for lower unemployment. It soon became clear, however, that this strategy was flawed. Expanding the money supply created jobs because it put more money in the hands of employers and consumers, who spent it. But eventually businesses learned to expect these monetary increases, and they simply raised their prices by the anticipated amount (instead of hiring more workers). The result was that the Fed gradually lost its ability to keep down unemployment; the more money it pumped into the economy, the more businesses raised their prices. As a result, both inflation and unemployment started growing together, forming a twin monster that economist Paul Samuelson dubbed "stagflation."

Stagflation happened to reach its peak on Carter's watch, spurred on by the 1979 oil shock. How Carter can be blamed for a trend that began a decade and a half earlier is a mystery -- and a testimony as to how presidential candidates often exploit the public's economic ignorance for their own political gain.

However, Carter did in fact take a tremendously important step in ending stagflation. He nominated Paul Volcker for the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. Volcker was committed to eradicating stagflation by giving the nation some bitter medicine: an intentional recession. In 1980, Volcker tightened the money supply, which stopped job growth in the economy. In response to hard times, businesses began cutting their prices, and workers their wage demands, to stay in business. Volcker argued that eventually this would wring inflationary expectations out of the system.

The recovery of 1981 was unintentional, and with inflation still high, Volcker tightened the money supply even more severely in 1982. This resulted in the worst recession since the Great Depression. Unemployment in the final quarter of 1982 soared to over 10 percent, and Volcker was accused of the "cold-blooded murder of millions of jobs." Even high-ranking members of Reagan's staff were vehemently opposed to his actions. Congress actually considered bringing the independent Fed under the government's direct control, to avoid such economic pain in the future. Today, economists calculate that the cost of Volcker's anti-inflation medicine was $1 trillion -- an astounding sum. But Wall Street demanded that Volcker stay the course, and that may have been the only thing that saved him.

In the late summer of 1982, inflation looked defeated, so Volcker sharply expanded the money supply. Once as high as 14 percent in 1981, the Fed's discount rate fell from 11 to 8.5 percent between August and December 1982. Within months, the economy roared to life, and took off on an expansion that would last seven years. Because the recession had been so deep, and the number of available workers so large (with not only laid-off workers waiting to return to work, but also a record number of women seeking to join the workforce), the recovery was guaranteed to be long and healthy.

Interestingly, Volcker was transformed from villain to hero after the victory over inflation. His reputation and integrity were so unquestioned that when his term as Chairman came up for renewal, Reagan renominated him with overwhelming popular approval. Another interesting tidbit is that although Volcker's intentional recession was a classically Keynesian approach to combating inflation, he did so under the name of "monetarism". (The policies recommended by the two theories converged at this point.) Milton Friedman, the creator of monetarist theory, and other conservatives were pleased that the Fed had finally converted to monetarism. However, they were outraged in late 1982 when Volcker threw off the cloak of monetarism and openly returned to Keynesian policies for expanding the economy. Most economists now accept that the Fed was not monetarist at all during this period, and that the label was merely political cover for drastic but necessary action.

acbytesla · 8th January 2021, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

We might need a new thread for this. I am certain what you describe was a factor, but I think monetary policy can't be disregarded either as a major player.

I found this as an overall treatment.

https://www.federalreservehistory.or...reat-inflation

However, the conversation that originally convinced me on this point is here:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm

I don't agree with that at all. I think it was the result of the oil shocks. You combine the increased base commodity prices with the job losses in manufacturing and home building and it was a perfect storm. And the nation didn't really recover until the Fed lowered interest rates again. I think the tightening of the money supply at that time was a disaster.

Trebuchet · 8th January 2021, 12:24 PM

I'm picturing Trump in a staff meeting:
"The Fake News is making hay with this phone call! We need something to take their minds off it!"

Lothian · 8th January 2021, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I'm picturing Trump in a staff meeting:
"The Fake News is making hay with this phone call! We need something to take their minds off it!"

Crosby's dead cat strategy.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th January 2021, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Monza

No kidding. On Tuesday, I was thinking this was a huge story that couldn't be pushed off the radar so easily. Once again, I underestimated the Trump-era level of corruption and stupidity.

One Trump disaster bleeds into the next. There really aren't clear dividing lines.

HHellpop · 9th January 2021, 02:10 PM

So apparently, Trump had a practice run a week before he called Raffensperger:

‘Find the fraud’: Trump pressured a Georgia elections investigator in a separate call legal experts say could amount to obstruction

6th January 2021, 07:31 AM	#321
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I? Posts: 14,474	Originally Posted by Lothian I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past. Yes. But back then he could form coherent sentences.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

6th January 2021, 07:38 AM	#323
Butter! Rough Around the Edges Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Deep Storage Posts: 7,266	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg If I'm unaware, what is the difference? What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way? Be specific. We can take them one at a time. Do we need a new thread? I don't want to go down this ugly road, but presidents appoint supreme court judges, and if you were a woman, you might be more concerned about the current lineup therein affecting your personal life. EDIT: Honestly though, that seems like small potatoes now. I am genuinely worried the current President has irrevocably started the collapse of this nation. Which is a problem even for solipsists, because it means we're all going to have to live in scarcity, violence, and chaos. With a pandemic going on. I REALLY wish I were currently taking something for my anxiety.
	__________________ Get these tribbles off the bridge Last edited by Butter!; 6th January 2021 at 07:44 AM.

6th January 2021, 07:44 AM	#324
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	Originally Posted by Lothian I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past. He is an A-political creature who seeks personal power over all else. He calls himself a Republican now, but many of his "policies" would not be recognized as Republican under any other POTUS. He has destroyed the GOP and I am happy for that. However, I don't know that it was worth the cost.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

6th January 2021, 07:47 AM	#325
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,561	Originally Posted by Lothian I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past. Absolutely. As someone else pointed out, he is in everything for himself. Trump wanted to be president, and he figured out he couldn't scam democrats as easily as he could scam republicans. So, voila, he's a republican. It was totally a means to an end. Hell even the republicans don't stand for anything except tax cuts.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

6th January 2021, 09:49 AM	#326
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,527	Originally Posted by Lothian I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past. He was a NY Dem when it was politically advantageous, being a NY based developer. But I think we have seen that he was always an authoritarian at heart. Well, as long as he is the one wielding the authority.
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6th January 2021, 07:34 AM	#322
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 16,131	Originally Posted by timhau Yes. But back then he could form coherent sentences. I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps.

6th January 2021, 09:52 AM	#327
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,572	Originally Posted by Lothian I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps. That's coherent enough to speak to me.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

6th January 2021, 10:57 AM	#328
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,211	Originally Posted by Lothian I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps. FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!

6th January 2021, 11:08 AM	#329
Suddenly No Punting Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Not In Follansbee Posts: 4,118	Originally Posted by slyjoe It was totally a means to an end. Hell even the republicans don't stand for anything except tax cuts. That's unfair. An awful lot of them are just racists.

6th January 2021, 11:17 AM	#330
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,764	Originally Posted by Minoosh In one case she was trying to get to a level of detail that Trump has no patience for. This was on dead people voting. Trump said 5,000, Raffensperger said 2. Cleta jumped in saying she didn't have access to the same data the Ga. SoS did. But Trump talked over her - he has no interest in things that can actually be resolved. And some noises she made indicated she want to resolve certain things. OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"??

6th January 2021, 11:30 AM	#331
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 97,062	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"?? Depends - is she a 6 or a 9?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

6th January 2021, 11:49 AM	#332
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,547	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg If I'm unaware, what is the difference? What has a President done that has affected you in a personal, meaningful way? Be specific. We can take them one at a time. Do we need a new thread? This seems like a wildly tone deaf question to ask with the deadliest year in American history having just ended.

6th January 2021, 11:53 AM	#333
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,461	Originally Posted by johnny karate This seems like a wildly tone deaf question to ask with the deadliest year in American history having just ended. Only if you have empathy. Once you are a properly psychopathic person, the kind the worlds smartest person Ayn Rand viewed as the ideal human being it is easy to just forget all that.
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6th January 2021, 12:05 PM	#334
blutoski Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,369	Originally Posted by Lothian I am no expert in US politics but go back 15 years. Wasn't Trump a democrat? I thought he was friends with the Clintons in the past. My observation is that he was a Republican up to the end of the 90s, at which point he changed to Libertarian and put his hat in the ring for presidential candidacy. That didn't pan out, and during the Bush II administration, his views about involvement in foreign wars were no longer aligned to Libertarian or Republican parties, so he switched to Democratic. This affair with Democratic Party ended when they nominated a negro for president, and he switched back to Republican.
	__________________ "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

6th January 2021, 12:05 PM	#335
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,292	Originally Posted by gnome I am not sure there was a non-painful way out of "stagflation". I disagree. Raising interests levels that high savaged the economy. It destroyed the housing industry and did little to fight inflation. I'm definitely a Keynesian.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

6th January 2021, 12:07 PM	#336
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,292	Originally Posted by Lothian I still think we can get a coherent sentence out of him. "15 years to life" perhaps. Originally Posted by Matthew Best FOUR MORE YEARS!!!! 19 years?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

6th January 2021, 12:08 PM	#337
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,211	Originally Posted by acbytesla 19 years? FOUR MORE!!!

6th January 2021, 12:10 PM	#338
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,292	Originally Posted by acbytesla 19 years? Originally Posted by Matthew Best FOUR MORE!!! 23?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

6th January 2021, 12:11 PM	#339
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 8,211	Originally Posted by acbytesla 23? FOUR MORE YEARS! (I can keep this up for ages, you know.)

6th January 2021, 12:25 PM	#340
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,292	Originally Posted by Matthew Best FOUR MORE YEARS! (I can keep this up for ages, you know.) LOL. I'm sure you can.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

6th January 2021, 12:36 PM	#341
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy OK. So what are you thinking would happen if Trump let Cleta talk and try to "get to" that "level of detail"?? First of all, Trump was never going to let her talk. Maybe they could have established some protocol that would resolve the issue by walking her through the SoS investigation without violating any laws. I don't know. But as soon as she proposed something like that, IIRC he began talking over her. He did not want to go down the path of anything that could actually be resolved. I'm not saying she was a good guy here, although I did like her persistence in trying to get a word in edgewise. Certainly if I were SoS I wouldn't be sharing data with the Trump cabal if I could help it, because we've seen what his supporters do with data. Again, IIRC, this matches the response states gave Trump's special commission when they were supposedly trying to investigate Trump's alleged 3 million illegal votes after the 2016 election. Not just blue states either. That commission came up with nothing.

6th January 2021, 12:42 PM	#342
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 11,073	Originally Posted by acbytesla I disagree. Raising interests levels that high savaged the economy. It destroyed the housing industry and did little to fight inflation. I'm definitely a Keynesian. By your reckoning, what DID turn inflation around?
	__________________

6th January 2021, 12:43 PM	#343
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,764	Originally Posted by Minoosh Maybe they could have established some protocol that would resolve the issue by walking her through the SoS investigation without violating any laws. I don't know. So you suspect Trump is torturing her son to death with force lightning in front of her eyes?

8th January 2021, 12:18 AM	#344
rdaneel Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: I'M IN THE PHONEBOOK! I'M SOMEBODY!!! Posts: 4,278	And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process. Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout
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8th January 2021, 12:29 AM	#345
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,275	Originally Posted by rdaneel And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process. Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout Having observed that Democrats win if more people vote, the Republicans in Georgia are trying to ensure that, next time, fewer people can vote. They aren't even being subtle about it.
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8th January 2021, 06:12 AM	#346
turingtest Mistral, mistral wind... Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Embedded, reporting from Mississippi Posts: 4,678	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Having observed that Democrats win if more people vote, the Republicans in Georgia are trying to ensure that, next time, fewer people can vote. They aren't even being subtle about it. That is exactly right, the sticking point for the GOP. I'd been wondering (naively, I admit) why they were so opposed to a system that, after all, they had as much access to as anyone. Then I realized that it isn't that they're against a system that entitles them to an equal voice, it's that they're against a system that doesn't deny the other side a full voice.
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8th January 2021, 08:57 AM	#347
Modified Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,891	Originally Posted by rdaneel And now, after Georgia stood up to Trump and proclaimed the integrity of their election process, Georgia Republican legislators have suddenly decided that there's a problem with the integrity of their election process. Strict absentee voting limits proposed after record Georgia turnout Don't they realize that if there is no COVID at the time of the next election, this will most quite possibly hurt them?
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8th January 2021, 09:10 AM	#348
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,889	Hard to believe that this was first reported less than a week ago. Seems a lot longer.
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8th January 2021, 09:12 AM	#349
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,692	Watching Republicans word and reword "If just let all eligible voters vote, we won't stand a chance" would be pathetic if it wasn't actually working with some people. Have some goddamn dignity and stop shaking in fear at the idea of losing in a fair fight.
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8th January 2021, 09:34 AM	#350
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,292	Originally Posted by gnome By your reckoning, what DID turn inflation around? Two things. One, They stopped counting it. The Reagan administration changed the way the CPI was calculated. And two, most importantly, OPEC stopped raising oil prices. Go back and look. OPEC tripled oil prices in the mid seventies. I just started driving at that time and a gallon of gasoline went from 49 cents a gallon at the pump to a $1.50 in just a few short years. This led to the market responding dramatically. My father who drove 50,000 miles a year traded in an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Sedan that may have gotten 10 mpg for a Volkswagen diesel that got 50. My dad wasn't alone. People stopped buying gas guzzlers and instead purchased small cars. This was a big boon for Japanese and European automakers. Up until the mid seventies they sold few cars in the US This combined with an increase of domestic oil supplies (Alaska North Slope) eased the demand and led to a stabilization, even a drop in oil prices. OPEC countries were now fighting over a smaller pie. Any time you dramatically increase a base commodity that figures into everything, it is going to lead to price increases in everything.
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8th January 2021, 09:49 AM	#351
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,252	The Opening Arguments podcast next Tuesday is going to be talking about the phone call. Host and lawyer Andrew Torrez says that making and winning a criminal case from that phone call would be incredibly easy to do, to the point where he's pushing his co-host to title the episode "Donald Trump is going to prison".
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8th January 2021, 10:35 AM	#352
Monza Alta Viro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,206	Originally Posted by alfaniner Hard to believe that this was first reported less than a week ago. Seems a lot longer. No kidding. On Tuesday, I was thinking this was a huge story that couldn't be pushed off the radar so easily. Once again, I underestimated the Trump-era level of corruption and stupidity.
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8th January 2021, 10:37 AM	#353
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 11,073	Originally Posted by acbytesla Two things. One, They stopped counting it. The Reagan administration changed the way the CPI was calculated. And two, most importantly, OPEC stopped raising oil prices. Go back and look. OPEC tripled oil prices in the mid seventies. I just started driving at that time and a gallon of gasoline went from 49 cents a gallon at the pump to a $1.50 in just a few short years. This led to the market responding dramatically. My father who drove 50,000 miles a year traded in an Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Sedan that may have gotten 10 mpg for a Volkswagen diesel that got 50. My dad wasn't alone. People stopped buying gas guzzlers and instead purchased small cars. This was a big boon for Japanese and European automakers. Up until the mid seventies they sold few cars in the US This combined with an increase of domestic oil supplies (Alaska North Slope) eased the demand and led to a stabilization, even a drop in oil prices. OPEC countries were now fighting over a smaller pie. Any time you dramatically increase a base commodity that figures into everything, it is going to lead to price increases in everything. We might need a new thread for this. I am certain what you describe was a factor, but I think monetary policy can't be disregarded either as a major player. I found this as an overall treatment. https://www.federalreservehistory.or...reat-inflation However, the conversation that originally convinced me on this point is here: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm Originally Posted by Steve Kangas Growing inflation in the 70s received two huge boosts: the first comprised the late-1973 and 1979 oil shocks from OPEC (the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries). Soaring oil prices compelled most American businesses to raise their prices as well, with inflationary results. The second boost to inflation came in the form of food harvest failures around the world, which created soaring prices on the world food market. Again, U.S. companies that imported food responded with an inflationary rise in their prices. All this was accompanied by a growing crisis in monetary policy at the Federal Reserve. Traditionally, the Fed has fought inflation by contracting the money supply, and fought unemployment by expanding it. In the 60s, the Fed conducted an expansionary policy, accepting higher inflation in return for lower unemployment. It soon became clear, however, that this strategy was flawed. Expanding the money supply created jobs because it put more money in the hands of employers and consumers, who spent it. But eventually businesses learned to expect these monetary increases, and they simply raised their prices by the anticipated amount (instead of hiring more workers). The result was that the Fed gradually lost its ability to keep down unemployment; the more money it pumped into the economy, the more businesses raised their prices. As a result, both inflation and unemployment started growing together, forming a twin monster that economist Paul Samuelson dubbed "stagflation." Stagflation happened to reach its peak on Carter's watch, spurred on by the 1979 oil shock. How Carter can be blamed for a trend that began a decade and a half earlier is a mystery -- and a testimony as to how presidential candidates often exploit the public's economic ignorance for their own political gain. However, Carter did in fact take a tremendously important step in ending stagflation. He nominated Paul Volcker for the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. Volcker was committed to eradicating stagflation by giving the nation some bitter medicine: an intentional recession. In 1980, Volcker tightened the money supply, which stopped job growth in the economy. In response to hard times, businesses began cutting their prices, and workers their wage demands, to stay in business. Volcker argued that eventually this would wring inflationary expectations out of the system. The recovery of 1981 was unintentional, and with inflation still high, Volcker tightened the money supply even more severely in 1982. This resulted in the worst recession since the Great Depression. Unemployment in the final quarter of 1982 soared to over 10 percent, and Volcker was accused of the "cold-blooded murder of millions of jobs." Even high-ranking members of Reagan's staff were vehemently opposed to his actions. Congress actually considered bringing the independent Fed under the government's direct control, to avoid such economic pain in the future. Today, economists calculate that the cost of Volcker's anti-inflation medicine was $1 trillion -- an astounding sum. But Wall Street demanded that Volcker stay the course, and that may have been the only thing that saved him. In the late summer of 1982, inflation looked defeated, so Volcker sharply expanded the money supply. Once as high as 14 percent in 1981, the Fed's discount rate fell from 11 to 8.5 percent between August and December 1982. Within months, the economy roared to life, and took off on an expansion that would last seven years. Because the recession had been so deep, and the number of available workers so large (with not only laid-off workers waiting to return to work, but also a record number of women seeking to join the workforce), the recovery was guaranteed to be long and healthy. Interestingly, Volcker was transformed from villain to hero after the victory over inflation. His reputation and integrity were so unquestioned that when his term as Chairman came up for renewal, Reagan renominated him with overwhelming popular approval. Another interesting tidbit is that although Volcker's intentional recession was a classically Keynesian approach to combating inflation, he did so under the name of "monetarism". (The policies recommended by the two theories converged at this point.) Milton Friedman, the creator of monetarist theory, and other conservatives were pleased that the Fed had finally converted to monetarism. However, they were outraged in late 1982 when Volcker threw off the cloak of monetarism and openly returned to Keynesian policies for expanding the economy. Most economists now accept that the Fed was not monetarist at all during this period, and that the label was merely political cover for drastic but necessary action.
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8th January 2021, 10:54 AM	#354
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,292	Originally Posted by gnome We might need a new thread for this. I am certain what you describe was a factor, but I think monetary policy can't be disregarded either as a major player. I found this as an overall treatment. https://www.federalreservehistory.or...reat-inflation However, the conversation that originally convinced me on this point is here: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm I don't agree with that at all. I think it was the result of the oil shocks. You combine the increased base commodity prices with the job losses in manufacturing and home building and it was a perfect storm. And the nation didn't really recover until the Fed lowered interest rates again. I think the tightening of the money supply at that time was a disaster.
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8th January 2021, 12:24 PM	#355
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 31,059	I'm picturing Trump in a staff meeting: "The Fake News is making hay with this phone call! We need something to take their minds off it!"
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