[Continuation] Trump’s Coup - Part 2 - Page 39

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

it's fear of the Trump base.
I think, long term, an acquittal might be the death warrent of the GOP.

Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.

Fast Eddie B · 23rd January 2021, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again.

The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

Agreed, but only to a certain point. McConnell has power among the GOP senators but not total control. There are a few like Cruz and Hawley who will not vote to convict no matter what McConnell says.

alfaniner · 23rd January 2021, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

It takes time too prepare a criminal case, and there is so much to invesrigate.
You can't have everything yesterday...

They've already had four years. I assumed the criminal charges are for actions he performed before he became President.

dudalb · 23rd January 2021, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We also have the claims of several lawyers representing rioters from Jan. 6 that their clients believed they were just following Trump's instructions. There are also the statements of the rioters themselves:

Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has been charged with illegally entering the Capitol:

Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 23rd January 2021, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

I said it in the impeachment thread: McConnell blamed Trump (and others) for the insurrection in a speech on the House floor. This is possibly an indication that he would vote to convict. And he wouldn't vote to convict unless he knew that he had enough support in the Republican party for there to be a conviction.

It's worth noting that there have been stories for a little while that he's been canvassing the opinion of other Senators on whether they'd vote to convict, and that he's seen the insurrection as an opportunity to rid the GOP of Trump and salt the ground afterwards.

No conclusions should be drawn, obviously, but there is reason to believe that Trump will be convicted, and that McConnell will be part of that.

dirtywick · 23rd January 2021, 05:27 PM

if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now?

It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house.

It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try?

Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate.

There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.

acbytesla · 23rd January 2021, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.

I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.

DevilsAdvocate · 23rd January 2021, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now?

It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house.

It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try?

Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate.

There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.

I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party.

He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency.

He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side.

The information that he is planning to start his own party is also a large concern. Some Republican Senators may feel that he should be convicted based on his actions, and possibly even in the interest of the party, but are concerned about the fall out with his supporters in their state. If he is going to take his supporters and oppose Republicans, then that is no longer a concern. The best way to stop the creation of that party, or at least limit its influence, is to bar him from holding public office. He would not be able to campaign or raise donations under campaign finance laws.

There are some considerable political benefits for Republican Senators to convict.

Trebuchet · 23rd January 2021, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.

You beat me to it!

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.

I agree. This is the time for them to say to Republicans "You were lied to. The courts looked at the evidence: there was none. The states, including our Republican governors and Republican majority legislatures looked at the evidence: there was none. The FBI looked at the evidence: there was none. The Dept. of Justice looked at the evidence: there was none.

But it's not going to happen because of reps and senators like Cruz, Hawley, Boebert, T-Greene, Harris, Brook, etc. There are just too many true believers and too many scum who want to inherit the mantle like Cruz.

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.

Jenna, who was busy doing commercials for her real estate business while trying to overturn democracy by storming the Capitol.

dirtywick · 23rd January 2021, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party.

He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency.

He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side.

There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention.

Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?

acbytesla · 23rd January 2021, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention.

Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?

Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

dirtywick · 23rd January 2021, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

Yes, and Graham can do whatever he wants for a while, but the point is that wasn’t an easy win for him in a safe red state. He had to work for it. a guy like Rubio or Johnson doesn’t have that luxury. They’ll have to explain a vote to acquit on a national stage, fight off the full force of the Dems fundraising, and hope that Trump will not only endorse them but that his base holds strong and shows up for them on a ticket he’s not even on.

And those are the incumbents.

That’s not an ideal situation for a lot of senators.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2021, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

Yeah it sucks that McConnell and Graham have 6 years in the election-clear now.

Stacyhs · 24th January 2021, 12:45 AM

I'm hoping the Georgia GOP senatorial losses will be a warning to some of these senators that just running on being a Trump supporter ain't gonna hack it no mo'.

Vixen · 24th January 2021, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now?

It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house.

It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try?

Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate.

There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.

Now that Trump is starting his own party, that would have the effect of splitting the Republican vote giving the Democrats an even stronger majority, so yes, more of an incentive for Republican Senators to uphold his impeachment and thus debar Trump from ever standing for election ever again.

Vixen · 24th January 2021, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.

Except, unlike the prison camp guards, there would have been no unpleasant consequence in Jenna Thingybob refusing to participate in Trump's Save America Rally and insurrection.

Horatius · 24th January 2021, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

This is the part that needs to be hammered home to all the Republicans who are worried about angering the "Trump Base": The Trump Base actually reduces your support. It's a net loss, proven in many different races, all over the country. This wasn't one or two weird off-shoots.

The Trump Base only sounds big because they shout so loud.

TheSupermeerkat · 24th January 2021, 06:50 AM

The QAnon Shaman Song

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Darat · 24th January 2021, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Now that Trump is starting his own party, that would have the effect of splitting the Republican vote giving the Democrats an even stronger majority, so yes, more of an incentive for Republican Senators to uphold his impeachment and thus debar Trump from ever standing for election ever again.

Can’t find this anywhere in the online media - source?

eerok · 24th January 2021, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Can’t find this anywhere in the online media - source?

Probably this, which is just rumor.

Patriot_Party_of_the_United_States^WP

Segnosaur · 24th January 2021, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

They've already had four years. I assumed the criminal charges are for actions he performed before he became President.

Well there are a few things he might be criminally liable for since he was elected... Such as fraud charges related to his inauguration funding. (Plus his election fraud crimes may have happened pre-election but they could not have been revealed early enough to charge him with before he became president).

As for why he hadn't been charged/convicted of things like tax fraud BEFORE becoming president... It's just the nature of the criminal justice system. These types of crimes can go undetected for years. (Look at Paul Manafort... Some of the crimes he was found guilty of went back years, and might never have been detected if he hadn't gotten associated with trump.)

Why would the police/FBI spend the resources trying to investigate fraud bilking people out of millions of dollars or cheating the tax system when they can instead prosecute some poor kid for having some tiny amount of marijuana?

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

Skeptic Ginger · 24th January 2021, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat

The QAnon Shaman Song

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

That's great.

Vixen · 24th January 2021, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Can’t find this anywhere in the online media - source?

This:

Quote:

Trump 'is drafting an enemies list of Republicans for his Patriot Party to challenge in primaries' - and 'already has $70M in campaign cash on hand' as he plots to squeeze GOP senators to avoid impeachment conviction
Trump is reportedly pushing forward with his plan to create a new 'Patriot Party'
Believes it will give him leverage in Senate impeachment trial next month
He is already drafting an enemies list of Republicans to target in primaries
Reps. Liz Cheney and Tom Rice, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, and Senator Lisa Murkowski are all on the list, and could face Patriot Party challenges in 2022
Sources say Trump already has $70 million in campaign cash on hand
His campaign raised millions after Election Day on his challenges to the results
'We'll do something, but not just yet,' he said at Mar-a-Lago on Friday

I should have seen the 'reportedly' and the quotation marks. I am usually alert to this type of headline. ('Sources say', 'could', 'may', 'what next for...' 'Will he..?')

Always be wary.

Paul2 · 24th January 2021, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by TheSupermeerkat

The QAnon Shaman Song

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Can you imagine the entire Broadway comedy? "A Funny Thing Happened to Me on the Way to the Capitol."

Darat · 24th January 2021, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

This:

I should have seen the 'reportedly' and the quotation marks. I am usually alert to this type of headline. ('Sources say', 'could', 'may', 'what next for...' 'Will he..?')

Always be wary.

Thanks -cI didn’t know if I had missed something.

It’s Trump, that may be a plan of his children but not one Trump could manage.

DevilsAdvocate · 24th January 2021, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Thanks -cI didn’t know if I had missed something.

It’s Trump, that may be a plan of his children but not one Trump could manage.

It's one Steve Bannon could manage.

Darat · 24th January 2021, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

It's one Steve Bannon could manage.

True, he always has enablers around him.

dudalb · 25th January 2021, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

SC will, along with Alabama and Mississippi, the last states to go Blue.

acbytesla · 25th January 2021, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

SC will, along with Alabama and Mississippi, the last states to go Blue.

I don't know about that. I'd bet on SC going blue quicker than Kentucky, Tennessee or Indiana.

JoeMorgue · 25th January 2021, 07:31 PM

Mississippi has an almost 40% African American population, the largest in the US (outside of DC and the Virgin Islands).

You can only run on an openly racist platform for long before that bites you in the ass.

acbytesla · 25th January 2021, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Mississippi has an almost 40% African American population, the largest in the US (outside of DC and the Virgin Islands).

You can only run on an openly racist platform for long before that bites you in the ass.

We just learned in Georgia how that works. This is why I can see SC and Mississippi flipping before Utah,Idaho, Indiana and the Dakotas.

Stacyhs · 25th January 2021, 08:46 PM

Some states will never turn blue: Idaho, Utah, Oklahoma, Wyoming among them.

Fast Eddie B · 27th January 2021, 02:53 PM

I think it was in this thread I asked if somewhere there was a comprehensive list of those charged in the Jan 6 Capitol insurrection.

Looks like USA Today has provided this important service:

https://www.usatoday.com/storytellin...t-mob-arrests/

Dr. Keith · 27th January 2021, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I think it was in this thread I asked if somewhere there was a comprehensive list of those charged in the Jan 6 Capitol insurrection.

Looks like USA Today has provided this important service:

https://www.usatoday.com/storytellin...t-mob-arrests/

I wonder how many can be called to testify during the impeachment trial.

CORed · 28th January 2021, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention.

Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?

How things will sort out in two years remains to be seen. But I suspect that a lot of Republicans are between a rock and a hard place. The Trump true believers still constitute a big portion, perhaps a majority of Republicans. Telling the truth about Trumps ridiculous claims of a stolen election will likely cause them to lose a primary. However, I think they are going to have hard time winning a general election if they embrace the Trump lies. For heavily republican House districts, I suspect that staying with the Trump program is the way to go, and those that are insufficiently wacko will likely be defeated by real wackos like Greene and Boebert. So my cautiously optimistic prediction for 2022 is that Democrats will increase their majority in the Senate, hold a majority in the House, but a lot of the House Republicans will be complete, Qanon (or whatever conspiracy theory replaces it) believing nutjobs.

Vixen · 28th January 2021, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

I think it was in this thread I asked if somewhere there was a comprehensive list of those charged in the Jan 6 Capitol insurrection.

Looks like USA Today has provided this important service:

https://www.usatoday.com/storytellin...t-mob-arrests/

Haha, Mom has been charged:

Quote:

Charges
Conspiracy civil disorders; restricted buildings or grounds; violent entry or disorderly conduct

What happened
Lisa Marie Eisenhart traveled with her son, Eric Munchel, to Washington D.C. The FBI obtained surveillance video from their hotel, the Grand Hyatt, showing them leaving to go to the rally. Video footage from inside the Capitol shows Eisenhart and Munchel near a mob trying to attack two Capitol police officers guarding the entrance to the Senate, the FBI wrote in a statement. The footage shows officers run past Eisenhart and Munchel, then the mother and son follow after them, each holding flex cuffs, the FBI stated.

ponderingturtle · 28th January 2021, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Haha, Mom has been charged:

I am sure they were just trying to return the flex cuffs.

23rd January 2021, 04:26 PM	#1524
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,839	Originally Posted by dudalb It takes time too prepare a criminal case, and there is so much to invesrigate. You can't have everything yesterday... They've already had four years. I assumed the criminal charges are for actions he performed before he became President.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

23rd January 2021, 04:49 PM	#1525
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We also have the claims of several lawyers representing rioters from Jan. 6 that their clients believed they were just following Trump's instructions. There are also the statements of the rioters themselves: Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has been charged with illegally entering the Capitol: Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

23rd January 2021, 05:06 PM	#1526
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,234	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators. Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope. I said it in the impeachment thread: McConnell blamed Trump (and others) for the insurrection in a speech on the House floor. This is possibly an indication that he would vote to convict. And he wouldn't vote to convict unless he knew that he had enough support in the Republican party for there to be a conviction. It's worth noting that there have been stories for a little while that he's been canvassing the opinion of other Senators on whether they'd vote to convict, and that he's seen the insurrection as an opportunity to rid the GOP of Trump and salt the ground afterwards. No conclusions should be drawn, obviously, but there is reason to believe that Trump will be convicted, and that McConnell will be part of that.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

23rd January 2021, 05:27 PM	#1527
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,085	if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now? It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house. It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try? Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate. There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,085

23rd January 2021, 05:39 PM	#1528
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards. I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

23rd January 2021, 02:18 PM	#1521
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,969	Originally Posted by dudalb it's fear of the Trump base. I think, long term, an acquittal might be the death warrent of the GOP. Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.

23rd January 2021, 02:39 PM	#1522
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,725	Originally Posted by Stacyhs If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again. The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators. Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

23rd January 2021, 03:08 PM	#1523
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,969	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators. Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope. Agreed, but only to a certain point. McConnell has power among the GOP senators but not total control. There are a few like Cruz and Hawley who will not vote to convict no matter what McConnell says.

23rd January 2021, 05:53 PM	#1529
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,444	Originally Posted by dirtywick if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now? It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house. It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try? Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate. There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him. I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party. He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency. He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side. The information that he is planning to start his own party is also a large concern. Some Republican Senators may feel that he should be convicted based on his actions, and possibly even in the interest of the party, but are concerned about the fall out with his supporters in their state. If he is going to take his supporters and oppose Republicans, then that is no longer a concern. The best way to stop the creation of that party, or at least limit its influence, is to bar him from holding public office. He would not be able to campaign or raise donations under campaign finance laws. There are some considerable political benefits for Republican Senators to convict.
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

23rd January 2021, 05:54 PM	#1530
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 30,976	Originally Posted by dudalb Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style. You beat me to it!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

23rd January 2021, 06:07 PM	#1531
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,969	Originally Posted by acbytesla I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend. I agree. This is the time for them to say to Republicans "You were lied to. The courts looked at the evidence: there was none. The states, including our Republican governors and Republican majority legislatures looked at the evidence: there was none. The FBI looked at the evidence: there was none. The Dept. of Justice looked at the evidence: there was none. But it's not going to happen because of reps and senators like Cruz, Hawley, Boebert, T-Greene, Harris, Brook, etc. There are just too many true believers and too many scum who want to inherit the mantle like Cruz.

23rd January 2021, 06:18 PM	#1532
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,969	Originally Posted by dudalb Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style. Jenna, who was busy doing commercials for her real estate business while trying to overturn democracy by storming the Capitol.

23rd January 2021, 07:18 PM	#1533
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,085	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party. He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency. He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side. There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention. Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,085

23rd January 2021, 08:16 PM	#1534
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by dirtywick There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention. Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate? Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

23rd January 2021, 08:35 PM	#1535
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,085	Originally Posted by acbytesla Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump. Yes, and Graham can do whatever he wants for a while, but the point is that wasn’t an easy win for him in a safe red state. He had to work for it. a guy like Rubio or Johnson doesn’t have that luxury. They’ll have to explain a vote to acquit on a national stage, fight off the full force of the Dems fundraising, and hope that Trump will not only endorse them but that his base holds strong and shows up for them on a ticket he’s not even on. And those are the incumbents. That’s not an ideal situation for a lot of senators.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3,085	Last edited by dirtywick; 23rd January 2021 at 08:40 PM.

23rd January 2021, 09:48 PM	#1536
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,762	Originally Posted by acbytesla Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump. Yeah it sucks that McConnell and Graham have 6 years in the election-clear now.

24th January 2021, 12:45 AM	#1537
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,969	I'm hoping the Georgia GOP senatorial losses will be a warning to some of these senators that just running on being a Trump supporter ain't gonna hack it no mo'.

24th January 2021, 04:30 AM	#1538
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,732	Originally Posted by dirtywick if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now? It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house. It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try? Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate. There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him. Now that Trump is starting his own party, that would have the effect of splitting the Republican vote giving the Democrats an even stronger majority, so yes, more of an incentive for Republican Senators to uphold his impeachment and thus debar Trump from ever standing for election ever again.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

24th January 2021, 04:33 AM	#1539
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,732	Originally Posted by dudalb Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style. Except, unlike the prison camp guards, there would have been no unpleasant consequence in Jenna Thingybob refusing to participate in Trump's Save America Rally and insurrection.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

24th January 2021, 05:49 AM	#1540
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,006	Originally Posted by acbytesla It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump. This is the part that needs to be hammered home to all the Republicans who are worried about angering the "Trump Base": The Trump Base actually reduces your support. It's a net loss, proven in many different races, all over the country. This wasn't one or two weird off-shoots. The Trump Base only sounds big because they shout so loud.
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

24th January 2021, 06:55 AM	#1542
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,806	Originally Posted by Vixen Now that Trump is starting his own party, that would have the effect of splitting the Republican vote giving the Democrats an even stronger majority, so yes, more of an incentive for Republican Senators to uphold his impeachment and thus debar Trump from ever standing for election ever again. Can’t find this anywhere in the online media - source?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th January 2021, 07:24 AM	#1543
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,566	Originally Posted by Darat Can’t find this anywhere in the online media - source? Probably this, which is just rumor. Patriot_Party_of_the_United_States^WP
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

24th January 2021, 08:14 AM	#1544
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,092	Originally Posted by alfaniner They've already had four years. I assumed the criminal charges are for actions he performed before he became President. Well there are a few things he might be criminally liable for since he was elected... Such as fraud charges related to his inauguration funding. (Plus his election fraud crimes may have happened pre-election but they could not have been revealed early enough to charge him with before he became president). As for why he hadn't been charged/convicted of things like tax fraud BEFORE becoming president... It's just the nature of the criminal justice system. These types of crimes can go undetected for years. (Look at Paul Manafort... Some of the crimes he was found guilty of went back years, and might never have been detected if he hadn't gotten associated with trump.) Why would the police/FBI spend the resources trying to investigate fraud bilking people out of millions of dollars or cheating the tax system when they can instead prosecute some poor kid for having some tiny amount of marijuana? Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
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24th January 2021, 09:57 AM	#1546
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,732	Originally Posted by Darat Can’t find this anywhere in the online media - source? This: Quote: Trump 'is drafting an enemies list of Republicans for his Patriot Party to challenge in primaries' - and 'already has $70M in campaign cash on hand' as he plots to squeeze GOP senators to avoid impeachment conviction Trump is reportedly pushing forward with his plan to create a new 'Patriot Party' Believes it will give him leverage in Senate impeachment trial next month He is already drafting an enemies list of Republicans to target in primaries Reps. Liz Cheney and Tom Rice, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, and Senator Lisa Murkowski are all on the list, and could face Patriot Party challenges in 2022 Sources say Trump already has $70 million in campaign cash on hand His campaign raised millions after Election Day on his challenges to the results 'We'll do something, but not just yet,' he said at Mar-a-Lago on Friday I should have seen the 'reportedly' and the quotation marks. I am usually alert to this type of headline. ('Sources say', 'could', 'may', 'what next for...' 'Will he..?') Always be wary.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

24th January 2021, 11:06 AM	#1548
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,806	Originally Posted by Vixen This: I should have seen the 'reportedly' and the quotation marks. I am usually alert to this type of headline. ('Sources say', 'could', 'may', 'what next for...' 'Will he..?') Always be wary. Thanks -cI didn’t know if I had missed something. It’s Trump, that may be a plan of his children but not one Trump could manage.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

24th January 2021, 11:28 AM	#1549
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,444	Originally Posted by Darat Thanks -cI didn’t know if I had missed something. It’s Trump, that may be a plan of his children but not one Trump could manage. It's one Steve Bannon could manage.
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

24th January 2021, 11:41 AM	#1550
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,806	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate It's one Steve Bannon could manage. True, he always has enablers around him.
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25th January 2021, 04:16 PM	#1551
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by acbytesla Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump. SC will, along with Alabama and Mississippi, the last states to go Blue.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

25th January 2021, 04:49 PM	#1552
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by dudalb SC will, along with Alabama and Mississippi, the last states to go Blue. I don't know about that. I'd bet on SC going blue quicker than Kentucky, Tennessee or Indiana.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

25th January 2021, 07:31 PM	#1553
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,537	Mississippi has an almost 40% African American population, the largest in the US (outside of DC and the Virgin Islands). You can only run on an openly racist platform for long before that bites you in the ass.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

25th January 2021, 07:57 PM	#1554
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Mississippi has an almost 40% African American population, the largest in the US (outside of DC and the Virgin Islands). You can only run on an openly racist platform for long before that bites you in the ass. We just learned in Georgia how that works. This is why I can see SC and Mississippi flipping before Utah,Idaho, Indiana and the Dakotas.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

25th January 2021, 08:46 PM	#1555
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,969	Some states will never turn blue: Idaho, Utah, Oklahoma, Wyoming among them.

27th January 2021, 02:53 PM	#1556
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,725	I think it was in this thread I asked if somewhere there was a comprehensive list of those charged in the Jan 6 Capitol insurrection. Looks like USA Today has provided this important service: https://www.usatoday.com/storytellin...t-mob-arrests/

27th January 2021, 02:59 PM	#1557
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,399	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B I think it was in this thread I asked if somewhere there was a comprehensive list of those charged in the Jan 6 Capitol insurrection. Looks like USA Today has provided this important service: https://www.usatoday.com/storytellin...t-mob-arrests/ I wonder how many can be called to testify during the impeachment trial.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

28th January 2021, 12:31 PM	#1558
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,077	Originally Posted by dirtywick There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention. Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate? How things will sort out in two years remains to be seen. But I suspect that a lot of Republicans are between a rock and a hard place. The Trump true believers still constitute a big portion, perhaps a majority of Republicans. Telling the truth about Trumps ridiculous claims of a stolen election will likely cause them to lose a primary. However, I think they are going to have hard time winning a general election if they embrace the Trump lies. For heavily republican House districts, I suspect that staying with the Trump program is the way to go, and those that are insufficiently wacko will likely be defeated by real wackos like Greene and Boebert. So my cautiously optimistic prediction for 2022 is that Democrats will increase their majority in the Senate, hold a majority in the House, but a lot of the House Republicans will be complete, Qanon (or whatever conspiracy theory replaces it) believing nutjobs.