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Tags alec baldwin , gun incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 27th January 2023, 12:36 PM   #1681
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
@erwinl
Look, I'm VERY opposed to gun ownership, as a disclaimer, but I am a history geek and that's just... wrong.

"Black powder" weapons is probably a misnomer, as basically the problem isn't with the propellant as with the loading and operation of said gun. The problem is with muzzle loaders, which invariably means pre-percussion-type operation.

In a modern firearm, there's a cartridge coming from the back, including all you need, including percussion cap, case, propellant and (if actually supposed to be fired "in anger") a bullet. You can include some obstruction in front to prevent the latter from going out, no problem, since everything else is coming through the back door (hur hur, Beavis). The gun will still fire, although if you need to fire more than one shot, as I was saying, you may need to modify it if it's a semi-auto or it won't cycle.

A muzzle loader loads everything from the front, including the powder and the wadding at the very least. Then you use a rod to ram it all the way down.

If it's not percussion cap based (which AFAIK no muzzle loaders were; even needle guns are later), then it basically has a hole in the barrel and a pan where you put more powder. You SOMEHOW ignite the powder in the pan (can involve just smashing a burning thing into it for matchlocks -- which covers pretty much any period Japanese setting -- or striking a piece of flint on some metal), the flame goes down the hole and ignites the charge at the back of the barrel.

Anything down the barrel that obstructs a bullet, it will at the very least also obstruct the wadding and possibly the whole ram rod too. At the very least then it doesn't guarantee that the powder is all the way at the back where the hole is. I.e., the gun is quite likely to not fire at all when you pull the trigger.


BUT, and this is a big fat BUT (I love big BUT's and I cannot lie) it also tells you why it's just flippin' stupid activism that doesn't actually solve anything, to try to ban those on a set. Not that it will stop idi... err... well meaning but uninformed people from trying.

Because you don't have a round coming from a magazine or in some obscured cylinder. You have to manually load every single piece and do every single step. For every single shot. You KNOW if there's a bullet in there, because you flippin' have to physically drop one down the barrel if you want one, as a separate step. Like, literally, after you put in the ammo and the wadding, you have to physically move your arm to your bullet pouch, pick a lead ball, and drop it down the barrel. With your own hand. There is no trusting anyone else. Unless you literally brought a lead ball yourself onto the set, picked it up with your own hand, and dropped it into the barrel, there is none.
The kind of TLDR version of this is, people often conflate "black powder" with "muzzleloader". Which is an inaccurate generalization, the black powder muzzle loading era lasted about oh 5 centuries or so, while the breechloading black powder era lasted about 30 years (45 for Prussia). As examples, A Spencer Rifle is a breechloading black powder rifle designed in 1860. Yet it held 7 rounds, and a skilled shooter could probably get off all 7 in about 20 seconds, reasonably accurately. On the other end of things, and I'm by no means an expert, I dont think many muzzle loader enthusiasts use actual black powder anymore. Pyrodex is a safer alternative.

ETA: the rapid development of arms from smooth bore muskets still in use until about 1850 to modern bolt action rifles of ~1890 is pretty fascinating.

ETA2: ohh and yes there were percussion cap muzzle-loaders.

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_1853_Enfield

Last edited by lobosrul5; 27th January 2023 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 27th January 2023, 01:40 PM   #1682
erwinl
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Also, irrelevant side-note since everyone seems to be all about "but how do you trust someone else"... back I was in the army, we had a serious chucklenuts in the squad. Like the kind who I assume was the class clown in school. Hell, make it year clown.

So when we have our pistol shooting training, the guy shoots the number of bullets we were told were loaded and we must shoot, turns to the next guy in line, puts the gun to his head and clicks. Still not sure why the gun even closed after that last round. Like, was it deffective, or did the guy release the slide, or what. In the former case the most probable assumption would have been that there was one more round, and it just got chambered. I was the next guy in line.

Which brings us to two very important points.

1. Yeah, it happened... ONCE. Every single officer and NCO around went BALLISTIC. In fact so ballistic, it must have registered on both NORAD and Warsaw Pact anti-ICBM radars. I thought they're gonna pound him into the flippin' ground. It wasn't even funny any more. And trust me, I'm easily amused. This was not funny. It was just short of murder.

... and that was the end of anyone getting funny ideas about a pistol. The rest of my sentence... err... tour in the army, was as safe as houses.

That these guys had 2 separate gun accidents and then a third could happen and kill someone, is beyond surreal. It's Eugene Ionesco kinda surreal.

2. Well, I'm probably the wrong guy to ask if you're expecting me to go, "OMG, ban all guns, someone could shoot ME"

My first reaction was just, surprised Pikachu face, "WTH?!" Well, with a different letter than H but you get the idea

Second was, "heh... funny!"

Third was "damn, I'm not dining on Odin's undead boar and mead served by sexy Valkyries today after all"
Lobosrul5 has already answered it, but I will do so as well.
You were asking about black powder guns, not only muzzle loaders. BP guns do contain cartridge guns, at the end of that era. Guns like the Martini-Henry, the Beaumont and many, many more.

But you still seem to be stuck on having to use real guns on a set and thinking of ways to make them safe.

Where I am going is looking at what you see on the big screen.
A gun shape, some parts of which may, or may not, visibly move. In the case of older Black Powder guns, firing it will emit a whitish smoke cloud. In the case of machine guns you will often see flashes of light emitting from the muzzle during firing.

All of these things can be simulated in something, which will look like a gun on the outside, but can never be used as one.

I’ve visited a DC art exposition a month ago and they had both guns of the Joker and Harley Quin there (at least, I think they were from both of those character. Could both have been from the Joker(never having seen that movie)). Anyway. You really had to look at them from up close to see they weren’t guns at all, but simply solid blocks of rubber.

So it is possible. It is being done.
And that is why I still say, there is no reason for a real weapon to be on a set.
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Last edited by erwinl; 27th January 2023 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 28th January 2023, 08:01 AM   #1683
SpitfireIX
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If it's not percussion cap based (which AFAIK no muzzle loaders were; even needle guns are later), then it basically has a hole in the barrel and a pan where you put more powder. You SOMEHOW ignite the powder in the pan (can involve just smashing a burning thing into it for matchlocks -- which covers pretty much any period Japanese setting -- or striking a piece of flint on some metal), the flame goes down the hole and ignites the charge at the back of the barrel.

Did you mean to write this? Or did you mean something else?
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Old 28th January 2023, 08:06 AM   #1684
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ah yes, "Load In 9", It takes 9 steps to load a muzzle loading rifle. First think you learn as a reenanctor.

That's where the expression to do something "by the numbers" originated.
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