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Old 18th October 2022, 07:52 AM   #521
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It seems like we are at least two layers deep into problematising the normal meaning of "woman". You've got the de Beauvoir 1940s complication where I think "woman" becomes something that males impose on females, a set of expectations, roles and so on. Now it is complicated again so that the demand is to be able to decouple "woman" from female. Rather than society imposing womanness against the female will, you have people demanding that society treat them as "women".
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:15 AM   #522
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The thing is, de Beauvoir was speaking metaphorically. She was not intending to argue that someone who magically escaped having that role imposed on her was not, in fact, a woman. As in, not an adult human female. Which is most certainly what "woman" meant then, as it still does today.

She was using a rhetorical device to introduce the subject of what is now referred to as "gender", but she wasn't intending to strip the word "woman" from a woman who escaped the pernicious effect of society's expectations of the female role. And I can just imagine her reaction if someone had suggested to her that a man could become a woman by voluntarily accepting these expectations.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:36 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The thing is, de Beauvoir was speaking metaphorically. She was not intending to argue that someone who magically escaped having that role imposed on her was not, in fact, a woman. As in, not an adult human female. Which is most certainly what "woman" meant then, as it still does today.

She was using a rhetorical device to introduce the subject of what is now referred to as "gender", but she wasn't intending to strip the word "woman" from a woman who escaped the pernicious effect of society's expectations of the female role. And I can just imagine her reaction if someone had suggested to her that a man could become a woman by voluntarily accepting these expectations.
Sure. She wasn't going after who was and wasn't a woman, that came later. She was though, I think, taking it away from being an intrinsic quality of females and turning it into something that females participate in. It is a bigger jump though, I think, to "anybody can be a woman" without first getting people to look on "woman" as a performance, or "woman" as something that society imposes on females. However she intended it, I think that is part of how we got here.

I've read some de Beauvoir, but I haven't read the whole of The Second Sex yet.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:39 AM   #524
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Without having to re-enact the entire evolution of the concept, we can skip straight to the present day and the topic of this thread: Transwomen are women only in the sense that "woman" has no real meaning.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:41 AM   #525
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I do have to agree with theprestige on this one. I've asked a dozen times now "Give me a scenario, ideally a real world scenario but anything that isn't intentionally absurd will work, where someone says 'I am this gender' and they are wrong." If you can't provide that, the term is not right, wrong, good, bad it's 100% meaningless.

It's a horoscope at this point. Hell it's not even that, it's someone born in November identifying as a Pisces.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:47 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do have to agree with theprestige on this one. I've asked a dozen times now "Give me a scenario, ideally a real world scenario but anything that isn't intentionally absurd will work, where someone says 'I am this gender' and they are wrong." If you can't provide that, the term is not right, wrong, good, bad it's 100% meaningless.

It's a horoscope at this point. Hell it's not even that, it's someone born in November identifying as a Pisces.
Haven't there been literal billboards and tshirts with "woman = adult human female" on them? Under that definition it is super easy to come up with cases where somebody could say "I am a woman" and have that statement be incorrect. Presumably you could come up with examples yourself without difficulty. Are you looking for a scenario under the "woman basically has no meaning" definition where somebody could be wrong to claim they are a woman? The question is meaningless unless you specify which definition you are asking it under.
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Old 18th October 2022, 08:57 AM   #527
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Also I'm stupid or cruel, I "get" on some level that sometimes disenfranchised groups need... their own branding. And I do give them some allowances for that.

Sure you could straw Vulcan it and go "It doesn't matter if you call it a rose or a crapflower, it would still smell the same" but come on people while we don't have to agree with it a group when they want to put a positive spin on something but that doesn't make it evil.

I'm still on "their side" for a lot of definitions of this. They are the group right now that is fighting the best fight to get of old, outdated gender norms and that's a fight worth having.

Yes I do disagree with their "We'll fix it by letting everyone just choose which team they are on" while, and I've never hidden that I think that, while noble reinforces those norms more than it helps, that's not the same thing as thinking they are in some kind of moral wrong.

None of this makes the people who actually do hate trans people the good guys.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:03 AM   #528
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I don't think anyone in this thread hates people who suffer from gender dysphoria and are doing the best they can to treat their condition.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:07 AM   #529
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Near as I can tell the literal "I say X, therefore I magically become X" is really the only level anyone is having a problem with.

There's some minor practical considerations but nobody at least in this thread (as with all things meatspace is surely different, both for the better and worse) seems to have any real issue with some "transitioning" on a biological level.

Doing literally nothing to change your body and going "Now I identify as..." seems to be the only real point of contention.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:09 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also I'm stupid or cruel, I "get" on some level that sometimes disenfranchised groups need... their own branding. And I do give them some allowances for that.

Sure you could straw Vulcan it and go "It doesn't matter if you call it a rose or a crapflower, it would still smell the same" but come on people while we don't have to agree with it a group when they want to put a positive spin on something but that doesn't make it evil.

I'm still on "their side" for a lot of definitions of this. They are the group right now that is fighting the best fight to get of old, outdated gender norms and that's a fight worth having.

Yes I do disagree with their "We'll fix it by letting everyone just choose which team they are on" while, and I've never hidden that I think that, while noble reinforces those norms more than it helps, that's not the same thing as thinking they are in some kind of moral wrong.

None of this makes the people who actually do hate trans people the good guys.
This is only a convincing argument for people who have bought in to this progressive project where we deconstruct away one societal scaffolding after another as leading to somewhere good. The whole thing is circular. If you believe that having a definition of "woman" that includes trans-women will lead to a better world, then you should support it because it will lead to a better world. Isn't that the very thing that people are disagreeing about? Is there a stopping point? We can play this game with any category.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:13 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Near as I can tell the literal "I say X, therefore I magically become X" is really the only level anyone is having a problem with.

There's some minor practical considerations but nobody at least in this thread (as with all things meatspace is surely different, both for the better and worse) seems to have any real issue with some "transitioning" on a biological level.

Doing literally nothing to change your body and going "Now I identify as..." seems to be the only real point of contention.
You should stick around a bit. That's just the tip of the contentious iceberg.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:13 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Doing literally nothing to change your body and going "Now I identify as..." seems to be the only real point of contention.

No it isn't. I don't care what anyone declares they identify as, or what changes they do or do not make to their bodies.

I care that biologically male people are not given the legal right to occupy female single-sex spaces and categories.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:29 AM   #533
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Biology can be changed, and that's fundamentally very different then declaring change by fiat.

Again the whole "Males are inherently predatory" angle isn't one I'm accounting for.

I've said before that for a lot of people in this discussion we could cut the crap and go "There's two genders, rapists and everyone else" and nothing would fundamentally change.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:36 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Biology can be changed, and that's fundamentally very different then declaring change by fiat.

Again the whole "Males are inherently predatory" angle isn't one I'm accounting for.

I've said before that for a lot of people in this discussion we could cut the crap and go "There's two genders, rapists and everyone else" and nothing would fundamentally change.
This sounds like the perspective of people who already don't think "woman" is meaningful. Incidentally, how would one determine who the rapists are? It sounds like you would only know each time after a bunch of women had been raped. One can sort people into males and females very easily, sorting them into rapists and everybody else seems a lot harder.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:36 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
This is only a convincing argument for people who have bought in to this progressive project where we deconstruct away one societal scaffolding after another as leading to somewhere good. The whole thing is circular. If you believe that having a definition of "woman" that includes trans-women will lead to a better world, then you should support it because it will lead to a better world. Isn't that the very thing that people are disagreeing about? Is there a stopping point? We can play this game with any category.
I don't care about another discussion with you where you try and trap people in following a philosophy to a pointless end. We don't need someone to Bob threads while Bob's in timeout.

Sane people don't make up philosophical rules and use them to tie their own hands.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:46 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care about another discussion with you where you try and trap people in following a philosophy to a pointless end.

Sane people don't make up philosophical rules and use them to tie their own hands.
I'm not making up philosophical rules. Your argument is circular. Circular arguments are entirely unconvincing to people who don't already agree with them. There is nothing to discuss. I'd be happy to have a debate on the topic of the thread, but I can't do that if you make circular arguments, there is no point. If I have misunderstood you argument, me saying I think it is circular is where you clarify it to make it clear that is isn't.

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Old 18th October 2022, 09:47 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'd be happy to have a debate on the topic of the thread, but I can't do that if you make circular arguments, there is no point.
Good, then you don't have to debate me. Win-win.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:52 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Biology can be changed,
Not really. Not in the ways necessary to transcend biological sex per the trans-rights agenda.

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Again the whole "Males are inherently predatory" angle isn't one I'm accounting for.
Good, because it's not an angle anyone is actually playing.

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I've said before that for a lot of people in this discussion we could cut the crap and go "There's two genders, rapists and everyone else" and nothing would fundamentally change.
Wow, this take just keeps getting wronger and wronger!

The actual claim is that the trans-rights movement has been co-opted by deeply disturbed sexual predators, who are using it as a stalking horse to push for public policies that will make it easier for them to indulge in their predatory urges without legal or social constraints.

The actual opposition to allowing transwomen into sex-segregated spaces for women is not the assumption that al males are rapists, but that the policies for allowing access give women no way to screen for predators who are exploiting the policy, and in fact may impose severe social and legal penalties on them for trying.

A few people in this thread go a bit further, and make a case that gender dysphoria in males is very often correlated with other pathologies that have inherently predatory elements.

---

And of course the reason we have sex-segregated spaces for women is not that all men are rapists, but rather that some men are, and the physical disparities between the sexes creates enough risk that sex segregation is a reasonable way to mitigate that.

Trans-rights activism demands that we set aside that mitigation strategy for anyone who asks. Presumably you do not, but I'm not sure anymore.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:53 AM   #539
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That's why this discussion collapses if you ask people to do anything that isn't just trying to win by labeling the parts.

There's no discussion here. Never has been. Or if you want to be fair there's a discussion here but nobody wants to really have it.

"I'm a woman if you use my definition of woman, I'm not a woman if I use your definition of a woman." Has ANYTHING been said that isn't just that from different angles?
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:54 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
It seems like we are at least two layers deep into problematising the normal meaning of "woman". You've got the de Beauvoir 1940s complication where I think "woman" becomes something that males impose on females, a set of expectations, roles and so on. Now it is complicated again so that the demand is to be able to decouple "woman" from female. Rather than society imposing womanness against the female will, you have people demanding that society treat them as "women".
I don't think we'll get much practical value out of trying to nail down what "woman" should be taken to mean these days, though it might be endlessly fun to argue about. There is just too much of a gulf between the recursive definition based on self-i.d. and the traditional definition based on sex.
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Old 18th October 2022, 09:56 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Biology can be changed, and that's fundamentally very different then declaring change by fiat.

Again the whole "Males are inherently predatory" angle isn't one I'm accounting for.

I've said before that for a lot of people in this discussion we could cut the crap and go "There's two genders, rapists and everyone else" and nothing would fundamentally change.

Biology cannot be changed in the sense you mean. Sex in mammals is innate and immutable. Plastic surgery to approximate a male anatomy into a superficial facsimile of female anatomy doesn't change the sex of that person.

I do not want to share intimate washing or grooming or counselling spaces with anyone who is male. I don't care if he is the most agreeable, non-predatory man on the planet. You might consider women who have been the victims of male violence. Many of these cannot bear to be around male people, no matter how benign, not even their brothers or fathers, while they recover. You might also consider women with particular religious beliefs, which preclude them from sharing intimate spaces with male people. If there are no sex-segregated female spaces they are excluded from public life, back on the "urinary leash" our Victorian fore-mothers fought so hard to break by campaigning for female public toilets.

If you see no difference at all between male people and female people, I would first say that this is delusional, and secondly that it's a very masculine trait, not to understand how women feel about these things.

I care nothing for "gender identity". Knock yourself out. I care very much when a man - any man - says that he has a legal right to impose himself in women's intimate spaces because of some nebulous unquantifiable feeling in his (very XY) head.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:00 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't think we'll get much practical value out of trying to nail down what "woman" should be taken to mean these days, though it might be endlessly fun to argue about. There is just too much of a gulf between the recursive definition based on self-i.d. and the traditional definition based on sex.
Oh, I'm not attempting to discover the One True Definition, even less one that everybody is going to agree on. Attempting to rationally derive these things is a madman's errand. I mention de Beauvoir only because I think that is the road that led us to here, and I think we learn something from that.

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Old 18th October 2022, 10:06 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The actual claim is that the trans-rights movement has been co-opted by deeply disturbed sexual predators, who are using it as a stalking horse to push for public policies that will make it easier for them to indulge in their predatory urges without legal or social constraints.
Which has been the anti-trans argument since before there were trans people. The same thing got said about gays and blacks and crossdressers. For some reason apparently the #1 favorite activity of literally every minority in history has been preying on women.

Hell he's a prediction for the Million Dollar Challenge. The next big minority pushing for equality fight we as a society are going to have? They'll be accused of predating (that needs to be a word) on women as well. I'm sure in 3042 there's going to be think pieces written about how AI or aliens or clone dinosaurs or whatever are preying on women.

I'm not telling women their fears aren't valid, but "they are a threat to the women" has also been one of if not THE most common phrases spoken by people out to get minorities since the dawn of goddamn time.

Bigots ALWAYS fall back on needing to protect women from whatever group they have decided to hate.

Go look up some newspaper archives from the Civil Rights era. Trust me on this "If we desegregate the bathrooms rape will become epidemic" was not a hard hot take to come across.

Quote:
And of course the reason we have sex-segregated spaces for women is not that all men are rapists, but rather that some men are, and the physical disparities between the sexes creates enough risk that sex segregation is a reasonable way to mitigate that.
That idea has never tracked. By that logic we should have weight classes for bathrooms. I'm a 43 year old IT I'm not overpowering most women.

But even beyond that step back and look at what is actually being said. Someone is willing to rape, to assault, maybe even to murder but they are going to be stopped because they aren't "allowed" by some social rule to go into the other bathroom? Wild guess the number of rapes actually stop because one side couldn't go into the other bathroom is not a large number.

It's not like bathrooms are secured spaces and we're issuing people people gender based keycards to get in. There's nothing actually stopping a rapists from going into the other bathroom, we all get that right? Let us not equate "Safe Space" with "Secure Space."

Essentially we're arguing that putting a sign on a bathroom door saying "Please Don't Rape - Honor System" is a deterrent.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:15 AM   #544
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But so we don't get too far into the weeds yet again is that nothing be discussed requires a definition of man/woman/male/female/sex/gender to work.

If we're going to get the old Bob special of having some insane level of arbitrary philosophical consistency thrown back in our face I can still make this work. I can without defining (and therefore arguing about the definition) of anything.

I said before "State your position without using the terms man, woman, male, female, sex, gender, trans, or cis" is a yardstick here that shows whether or not you have an argument or just want to win by declaration that definitions work in your favor.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:22 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Essentially we're arguing that putting a sign on a bathroom door saying "Please Don't Rape - Honor System" is a deterrent.
As I recall, the argument was actually that some women want to be able to say "get out" and perhaps alert the mgt. when obvious males come into their restrooms/changing rooms/locker rooms etc. but self-id takes away that norm and replaces it with what we saw at Wi Spa: women upbraided for daring to ask for a space for themselves in violation of California civil rights laws.

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Old 18th October 2022, 10:41 AM   #546
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I think Joe is simply arguing for the abolition of all sex-segregated spaces, full stop. Male and female people no longer having any space where people of the opposite sex are excluded.

In that case, why on earth would he be arguing for gender-segregated spaces? I can see no reason whatsoever for gender-segregated spaces.

If it's discriminatory and exclusionary and prejudicial to forbid any male to go into a female-only space, then fine, argue for absolute unisex everything in public life. But don't start arguing for some other sort of segregation. Surely that's just as discriminatory and exclusionary and prejudicial.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:42 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Has ANYTHING been said that isn't just that from different angles?
Yes, there has. There's been a LOT of discussion about which definition makes more sense for public policy, and why. There's also been some discussion about the appearance that one of the definitions isn't really a definition, but rather just vague superstitious aspirational handwaving.

There's been a lot of debunking of various strawmen and flawed analogies.

There has been no small amount of vicious ad hominems and related personal abuse, in place of coherent claims and rebuttals, especially from the trans-activist side.

There have been comically ham-handed appeals to a settled science which doesn't exist, also from the trans-activist side.

You're really missing a lot by not following the thread as it goes. It gives a distinct air of foolish ignorance to posts that trot out the same red herrings and flawed analogies that have already been repeatedly addressed.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:42 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
As I recall, the argument was actually that some women want to be able to say "get out" and perhaps alert the mgt. when obvious males come into their restrooms/changing rooms/locker rooms etc. but self-id takes away that norm and replaces it with what we saw at Wi Spa: women upbraided for daring to ask for a space for themselves in violation of California civil rights laws.
//Trying to think of a way to word this, fair?//

I think how much rapists are using/depending on/taking advantage of public bathrooms (and changing rooms and locker rooms and other "Public accessible but still private or semi-private spaces") is being vastly over rated.

I just don't see these kind of spaces as the prime rape/assault grounds people are presenting them as. To me, and thank God I can't speak to the mind or mentality of rapists so maybe I'm missing something but the very factors that get thrown out about bathrooms to me just make them illogical spaces to try and protect to this degree. They are public. Anyone can just walk in at anytime. That's not where you commit your crimes.

Sure, in fairness, I sorta get what's being argued for things like... voyeurisms and peeping toms and stuff like, cause in those cases the illicit thrill of being caught of the part the whole... like thing.

But basically if we have to segregate bathrooms because man might walk into one and rape someone, why let men out in public at all? Put us in camps. We shouldn't be in stairwells and parking garages or alone in office building after hours with a female employee or our own homes at that point.

Basically the whole bathroom just strikes me as weird arbitrary thing to worry about. Rapes can happen anywhere and I'm not sure if data and facts and reality really back up that bathrooms are statistical anomaly and not more of just symbolic representation of women's right to just be near men, with the whole "safety" thing a little of red herring.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:45 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think Joe is simply arguing for the abolition of all sex-segregated spaces, full stop.
I am.

Quote:
In that case, why on earth would he be arguing for gender-segregated spaces?.
I'm not. I'm discussing it as a possibility in some scenarios, but I'm not personally advocating for it.

In my ideal world there's public, which is everybody. And private, which is one person (or something like a parent and a child or something like that.)

But I'm realistic and MY solution is nowhere on the table and I'm aware of that. I'm trying to find one that makes the most people the most happy.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:46 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But basically if we have to segregate bathrooms because man might walk into one and rape someone, why let men out in public at all? Put us in camps. We shouldn't be in stairwells and parking garages or alone in office building after hours with a female employee or our own homes at that point.

Basically the whole bathroom just strikes me as weird arbitrary thing to worry about. Rapes can happen anywhere and I'm not sure if data and facts and reality really back up that bathrooms are statistical anomaly and not more of just symbolic representation of women's right to just be near men, with the whole "safety" thing a little of red herring.

You seem to be taking this very personally, as if being excluded from women's intimate spaces is tantamount to you personally being accused of intent to rape. I think you should stop that.

We segregate bathrooms because of modesty and comfort. Because (and I can only speak for women here) human females have a pretty strong aversion to being in an intimate situation with a male they have not consented to be intimate with. Insisting that she has to tolerate this is a huge boundary-breach, indeed coercion.

This also means that women who have a severe trigger-reaction to a male presence can enter an intimate space secure in the knowledge that there will be nobody there who will trigger them. It means that women of particular religions who are forbidden from undertaking personal intimate procedures in the presence of a male have somewhere to go.
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Old 18th October 2022, 10:49 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think how much rapists are using/depending on/taking advantage of public bathrooms (and changing rooms and locker rooms and other "Public accessible but still private or semi-private spaces") is being vastly over rated.
Probably so, but the women who want to say "get out" are concerned with an entire range of problems; physical assault is an extreme but rare case.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
They are public. Anyone can just walk in at anytime. That's not where you commit your crimes.
Decriminalizing voyeurism (per self-i.d.) essentially guarantees it won't be committed in these spaces, right?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But basically if we have to segregate bathrooms because man might walk into one and rape someone, why let men out in public at all?
I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that this is the only reason.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:02 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You seem to be taking this very personally, as if being excluded from women's intimate spaces is tantamount to you personally being accused of intent to rape. I think you should stop that.
I won't lie and say that this discussion is difficult for me because I do take a lot of what is being said as essentially "Why can't you take being assumed to be a rapist with jolly good humor? Why must you take a very personal so personally?"

Yes the fact so much of the discourse here requires people to easily and worse yet comfortably assume predatoriness in men to the degree it does, does bother me. I won't insult your intelligence by pretending otherwise.

In fact one of my big issues is we talking the context of segregating or separating the sexes as if some equal thing we're both benefiting from but in the same breathe we're all pretty much admitting and agreeing that what we are talking about is something more akin to quarantining the men from the rest of society and wish people would admit that.

And while maybe I am taking it overly personally that's not the same thing as me being wrong or not having any valid points.

Look at this way. Imagine going into going into work one morning and they've separated you from all the black people because they are afraid you might enslave them and you got told to "just not take it personally."

You can say that would be different, but I get you're gonna have a hard time actually explaining a difference.

Quote:
We segregate bathrooms because of modesty and comfort. Because (and I can only speak for women here) human females have a pretty strong aversion to being in an intimate situation with a male they have not consented to be intimate with. Insisting that she has to tolerate this is a huge boundary-breach, indeed coercion.
And that's sort of what I was trying to say, coming at it from another point of view, earlier where I asked are we really talking safety or this broader idea of some inherent to just not be around the other sex.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:03 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Go look up some newspaper archives from the Civil Rights era. Trust me on this "If we desegregate the bathrooms rape will become epidemic" was not a hard hot take to come across.
Citation needed.

Desegregation of whites-only facilities during Civil Rights is not a valid comparison here, since single-sex facilities were not generally made unisex when whites-only bathrooms were made illegal.

It'd certainly be interesting to look up whatever was said back then about the supposed risks of desegregation, because they cannot compare logically. If white men and black men henceforth shared public bathrooms, then black men were still barred from entering women's bathrooms, so one wonders how pro-segregation voices imagined rape would become epidemic, or if the cries of 'rape!' concerned white men's fear that black men would assault *them*

Likely the racists worried about an epidemic of crime and rape after desegregation, because Jim Crow-style segregation extended considerably beyond bathrooms to include almost every public space imaginable: transportation, schools, universities, hospitals, youth hostels, leisure facilities, swimming pools, golf clubs, you name it. All of these public institutions/facilities are desegregated today, not only on the basis of race/ethnicity but also sex, sexual orientation and gender identity. No one has ever argued for the exclusion of trans people from schools, hospitals, or indeed mixed swimming pools.

Schools, colleges and universities were already a mixture of coed and single-sex institutions 60 years ago at the climax of the Civil Rights struggles, and the number of single-sex schools and colleges has dramatically declined since then. But the 'next' step of making all bathrooms and changing rooms unisex has generally not been taken.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:11 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I won't lie and say that this discussion is difficult for me because I do take a lot of what is being said as essentially "Why can't you take being assumed to be a rapist with jolly good humor? Why must you take a very personal so personally?"

I've told this anecdote before. I was at a science fiction convention where the (very woke) committee had asked the hotel to declare the main set of lavatories to be entirely mixed sex. I was approaching the door with a female friend when I realised this. She had already realised and wasn't especially fazed by it. I hesitated, as she was saying, really, it's OK.

At that precise moment a good friend of mine, John, walked out of the door. I've known John for many years. We are part of a reading group that has been going on so long that we consider ourselves practically family. John has been an overnight guest in my house on several occasions in that context.

I immediately recoiled, proceeding directly to hotel reception to inquire whether there were single-sex toilets elsewhere in the building. There were, so that was fine. I just used these for the rest of the convention.

I say this to illustrate that this has got nothing to do with the possibility that a rapist might come in. Reducing the chance of assault, and being able to police our spaces so that a potential assailant can be asked to leave before anything untoward happens, is a bonus. If no man on the planet had even contemplated rape, we would still want our female-only spaces. It's about not being in an intimate or vulnerable condition when a male-bodied person is present or very nearby.

It's a question of bodily autonomy. It should be the right of every female human being to choose which male human beings she is in an intimate space with. Declaring that this is akin to racism and must be forbidden is coercive and in itself feels a bit rapey to many women.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:11 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Nick Terry View Post
Desegregation of whites-only facilities during Civil Rights is not a valid comparison here, since single-sex facilities were not generally made unisex when whites-only bathrooms were made illegal.
Nor at any point during the fights for segregation did the solution of "Well let's just keep the separate black and white restrooms but let everyone decide what team they are on" get seriously considered to the best of my knowledge either.

Weird little one off cases like Rachel whatsherface and that one hippie cousin we all have that's 1/34325235th Cherokee and won't shut up about it notwithstanding, "transrace" really isn't a thing, which is weird since race is a meaningless social construct and sex/gender has at least some biological basis in most cases.

So... six of one half a dozen of the other.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:14 AM   #556
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Uh... http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=361945
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:21 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
My basic point that at not point did we consider racial identity being something you could self identity as to get around segregation of the races is valid.

Like at no point did anyone sit at the front of the bus via the argument that they identified as a white person is what I'm saying.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:23 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I won't lie and say that this discussion is difficult for me because I do take a lot of what is being said as essentially "Why can't you take being assumed to be a rapist with jolly good humor? Why must you take a very personal so personally?"
That's an absurd strawman, though. You have completely misunderstood the essence of the argument.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:23 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've told this anecdote before. I was at a science fiction convention where the (very woke) committee had asked the hotel to declare the main set of lavatories to be entirely mixed sex. I was approaching the door with a female friend when I realised this. She had already realised and wasn't especially fazed by it. I hesitated, as she was saying, really, it's OK.

At that precise moment a good friend of mine, John, walked out of the door. I've known John for many years. We are part of a reading group that has been going on so long that we consider ourselves practically family. John has been an overnight guest in my house on several occasions in that context.

I immediately recoiled, proceeding directly to hotel reception to inquire whether there were single-sex toilets elsewhere in the building. There were, so that was fine. I just used these for the rest of the convention.

I say this to illustrate that this has got nothing to do with the possibility that a rapist might come in. Reducing the chance of assault, and being able to police our spaces so that a potential assailant can be asked to leave before anything untoward happens, is a bonus. If no man on the planet had even contemplated rape, we would still want our female-only spaces. It's about not being in an intimate or vulnerable condition when a male-bodied person is present or very nearby.

It's a question of bodily autonomy. It should be the right of every female human being to choose which male human beings she is in an intimate space with. Declaring that this is akin to racism and must be forbidden is coercive and in itself feels a bit rapey to many women.
If people being "vaguely near you" is a bodily autonomy issue that concept has no meaning. The hypothetical person is in the bathroom stall next to you, they haven't crawled into bed with you. Hell in your own story the person wasn't even in the bathroom with you, but occupied before you.

Violence disparage between the sexes isn't so great that's literally the only time you can declare some inherent right to have a safe space free from "the other." There's plenty of people who are bigger and stronger than me and I still have to live in a world with them. If I walk into the men's room and there's a 6 foot 4 MMA fighter I don't get to tell him to leave because he makes me uncomfortable. I'm not sure you've made the argument you think you have that being a woman changes that to the degree it does.

I think you vastly over-estimate how much just being a dude protects someone from ever feeling unsafe. Don't lump me in with macho "I ain't scared of nothing" alpha jocks.

Believe I'm a combat vet I get the emotional need to have spaces where can you turn off our defenses. You can't be on all the time that will destroy you, if you believe literally nothing else I say believe me when I say I GET that.
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Old 18th October 2022, 11:30 AM   #560
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It's an instinctive reaction. You want to say I and every other woman on the planet should over-ride this because you think it's an over-reaction, even though you say you understand. You don't.

Maybe I can put it another way, the way I've heard some other women explaining it.

"Good men stay out of women's intimate spaces so that bad men can't go there."

Actually that is not the whole story by a long way, as I've been trying to explain. There are issues of comfort and modesty that transcend whether a man is good or bad. But there is a sense in which this way of looking at it explains something.

If a man is arguing that our modesty is of no account, and that our comfort is an over-reaction, and that he, an entirely benign man, feels insulted and indeed implicitly accused of rape because he's not welcome in our spaces, so we should let him and any other man in because of this negative feeling he has - that is a red flag. That is, at best, a good man not understanding why good men stay out of women's intimate spaces. Or it could be the sly arguing of someone who wants to demolish our barriers because he isn't a good man.

How can we tell?
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