Old buzzard retired for 20 years says "woke generation" is too lazy to lead business

shemp · 23rd January 2023, 07:43 AM

Also says that trying to stop global warming will destroy business. And screams at clouds and kids on his lawn.

Home Depot's cofounder — who retired in 2002 — says he doesn't want the 'woke generation' leading business because of their 'laziness'

Quote:

Home Depot cofounder Bernie Marcus is adamant he doesn't want the "woke generation" leading business.
He told Fox Business that "nobody wants to work anymore" because of "laziness" and government benefits.
Home Depot has distanced itself from Marcus, noting he hasn't worked at the company in 20 years.

Home Depot's 93-year-old cofounder Bernie Marcus — who retired in 2002 — says he doesn't want the "woke generation" leading business, arguing that they would spend money "we don't have" on climate mitigation and wouldn't focus on the bottom line.

Speaking on Fox Business Network's "Varney & Co" on Thursday, Marcus — who no longer has any day-to-day involvement with the company — said: "I certainly don't want to see the woke generation coming up, especially the leaders."

He said that he had been following the World Economic Forum's annual meeting in Davos "and they're recommending spending more money on climate control when we don't have it. We've already overspent. And if anything, climate control has caused most of the problems we have today."

Quote:

"We need leaders who are basically thinking about the shareholders and their employees," Marcus added. "And I think today it's all about woke diversity, things that don't hit the bottom line." Marcus provided little evidence for these claims.

A 2020 report by consultancy giant McKinsey & Company actually found that companies who have more diverse leadership are more likely to report higher profitability.

Marcus, who was a major donor to Donald Trump's 2016 and 2020 presidential campaigns, also spoke about the labor market, saying that people "don't want to work."

"You can't hire people," he said. "Nobody wants to work anymore, especially office people."

Marcus said that the reason that people didn't want to work is that "they're entitled, they're given everything," adding that government unemployment benefits were pushing people to stay at home.

"So you get this laziness ... and it's basically a socialistic society," he said. Marcus also said that people wanted to work "three days a week," possibly referring to the growth in demand for flexible working during the pandemic, as well as the recent push for a four-day workweek.

Well **** you, you rich old worthless douchebag *******. You'll be dead soon and the world will go on and forget about you.

sackett · 23rd January 2023, 08:01 AM

It's easy to forget somebody you never heard of before.

MarkCorrigan · 23rd January 2023, 08:10 AM

93 year old man says "Things were better in my day". News at 11.

Seriously, if he were still in charge then maybe people might care about what he says but he's been retired over 20 years. Why should anyone give him airtime? Oh right, it's Fox.

The Don · 23rd January 2023, 08:15 AM

It's only anecdotal but young people today seem to have a lot more "hustle" and are far more entrepreneurial than I was back in my day.

sackett · 23rd January 2023, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

It's only anecdotal but young people today seem to have a lot more "hustle" and are far more entrepreneurial than I was back in my day.

When just making the rent can be a full-time job, you learn to hustle and muscle.

Remember when you could afford to tune in, turn on, and drop out?

Hellbound · 23rd January 2023, 08:49 AM

I dunno. I think his statement that diversity doesn't hit the bottom line is pretty much the end of it. It shows he has no real clue how business functions today. I don't believe there's any large, successful business in the U.S. that doesn't at least go through the motions of supporting diversity...the ones that come out against it tend to face a significant impact to their bottom line.

ahhell · 23rd January 2023, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

93 year old man says "Things were better in my day". News at 11.

Seriously, if he were still in charge then maybe people might care about what he says but he's been retired over 20 years. Why should anyone give him airtime? Oh right, it's Fox.

Kids these days, am I right?

Elaedith · 23rd January 2023, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by ahhell

Kids these days, am I right?

Old people these days, what is wrong with them?

Ziggurat · 23rd January 2023, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Hellbound

I dunno. I think his statement that diversity doesn't hit the bottom line is pretty much the end of it. It shows he has no real clue how business functions today. I don't believe there's any large, successful business in the U.S. that doesn't at least go through the motions of supporting diversity...the ones that come out against it tend to face a significant impact to their bottom line.

You aren't actually contradicting him, though. What you're saying is that for public relations purposes companies have to appear to agree with "diversity". But you aren't actually claiming that diversity is in and of itself a good thing. And that's what he's addressing. "Diversity" is popular, but popularity doesn't make something actually good.

And I'm using quotes because only certain kinds of diversity count, many pro-"diversity" actions actually seek to enforce uniformity.

wareyin · 23rd January 2023, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You aren't actually contradicting him, though. What you're saying is that for public relations purposes companies have to appear to agree with "diversity". But you aren't actually claiming that diversity is in and of itself a good thing. And that's what he's addressing. "Diversity" is popular, but popularity doesn't make something actually good.

And I'm using quotes because only certain kinds of diversity count, many pro-"diversity" actions actually seek to enforce uniformity.

If opposing something hurts your bottom line, it's kinda silly to say being seen supporting it does nothing for your bottom line. And in capitalism nothing is "good" or "bad" unless it affects your bottom line positively or negatively.

shemp · 23rd January 2023, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Elaedith

Old people these days, what is wrong with them?

Damn right! Of course, I am 65, but I don't consider anyone old until they're at least 25 years older than me. I'm still middle age! And that old buzzard is 93 so he qualifies!

TragicMonkey · 23rd January 2023, 09:41 AM

He's still mad about the labor expenses he incurred after 13th Amendment.

Ziggurat · 23rd January 2023, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

If opposing something hurts your bottom line, it's kinda silly to say being seen supporting it does nothing for your bottom line.

The whole point which you studiously missed is that it isn't the actual thing you need, but only the appearance of the thing. Can you really not comprehend the difference?

wareyin · 23rd January 2023, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The whole point which you studiously missed is that it isn't the actual thing you need, but only the appearance of the thing. Can you really not comprehend the difference?

Ahhh, this is one of those things where giving the appearance of doing something is the exact same thing as actually doing it, but you know deep in their heart they don't mean it so it doesn't count? Like...the conservatives spouting stupid conspiracy theories about stolen elections deep within their secret hearts know they aren't true so we shouldn't write them off as conspiracy theorists?

Carrot Flower King · 23rd January 2023, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Elaedith

Old people these days, what is wrong with them?

Run out of clouds to shout at?

Ziggurat · 23rd January 2023, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Ahhh, this is one of those things where giving the appearance of doing something is the exact same thing as actually doing it

It's one of those things where the only claimed benefit comes from the appearance, not the actual thing. You have not actually argued that there's any benefit at all, and Hellbound explicitly appealed to a benefit which comes from the appearance. Whether the actual thing will produce different results than the mere appearance has not yet even been asserted. If that is your position, you are free to make such an argument, but it has not yet been made.

wareyin · 23rd January 2023, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It's one of those things where the only claimed benefit comes from the appearance, not the actual thing. You have not actually argued that there's any benefit at all, and Hellbound explicitly appealed to a benefit which comes from the appearance. Whether the actual thing will produce different results than the mere appearance has not yet even been asserted. If that is your position, you are free to make such an argument, but it has not yet been made.

What is the functional difference between appearing to have a diverse workforce and having a diverse workforce? Is Home Depot requiring employees to wear blackface and/or cross dress in order to only appear to not [eta: only] hire white guys?

Arcade22 · 23rd January 2023, 04:12 PM

Climate control has caused more damage than it prevented, says old worthless shrived up husk that would surely have died without AC.

Although that makes me think he might be on to something... Maybe future heat waves are a blessing in disguise...

mgidm86 · 23rd January 2023, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

When just making the rent can be a full-time job, you learn to hustle and muscle.

Remember when you could afford to tune in, turn on, and drop out?

My Dad's first house is worth 100 times more than he paid for it in the 60s, as is every home in that totally average neighborhood in San Jose, yet wages have gone up maybe 2-3 times in that same period.

dudalb · 23rd January 2023, 05:13 PM

I guess he does not get that catrasrophic climate change will be very bad for the bottom line.....

Trebuchet · 23rd January 2023, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

I guess he does not get that catrasrophic climate change will be very bad for the bottom line.....

HD will gladly sell you insulation and AC units.

lionking · 23rd January 2023, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

My Dad's first house is worth 100 times more than he paid for it in the 60s, as is every home in that totally average neighborhood in San Jose, yet wages have gone up maybe 2-3 times in that same period.

I suggest your estimate of wages growth is way out of kilter, it has been much higher. And the increase in house values is much lower.

Wages:

https://www.dollartimes.com/inflatio...s-minimum-wage

Quote:

In the year 1963, the United States minimum wage was $1.25.

This is equivalent to $12.20 in 2023 dollars

.

So 10 times not two or three.

Houses:

https://www.supermoney.com/inflation...d-home-prices/

Quote:

In 2020, the median sales price of a home was $391,300. That is 20 times the $19,300 average sales price in 1963! How can you say housing affordability hasn’t changed? Consider all the data before you jump to a conclusion.

That’s 20 times, not 100.

arthwollipot · 23rd January 2023, 06:27 PM

Just goes to show that if you use "woke" as a pejorative noun, you should really take a look at who else does so, and have a good hard think about the company you're keeping.

TragicMonkey · 23rd January 2023, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

I suggest your estimate of wages growth is way out of kilter, it has been much higher. And the increase in house values is much lower.

Wages:

https://www.dollartimes.com/inflatio...s-minimum-wage

.

So 10 times not two or three.

Houses:

https://www.supermoney.com/inflation...d-home-prices/

That’s 20 times, not 100.

The US is a big country, you shouldn't use national averages to do such math. Both real estate prices and wages are very local things.

lionking · 23rd January 2023, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The US is a big country, you shouldn't use national averages to do such math. Both real estate prices and wages are very local things.

Not buying it. Averages (and means) mean something and it’s a good way to look at national trends. Besides do you think it likely that whole communities could have grown 100 times when the nation grew by 20? Because I don’t.

Personal anecdotes do not carry much weight.

Shepherd · 23rd January 2023, 11:31 PM

San Jose is part of Silicon Valley, I do believe.

"Silicon Valley, a region located in the southern part of the San Francisco Bay Area, is one of the most expensive regions to live in the United States, and many residents lack access to affordable housing. In 2018, the median home price across the area was $1.18 million, the highest of the 100 largest metro areas in the U.S."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afford...Silicon_Valley

Brainster · 23rd January 2023, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

My Dad's first house is worth 100 times more than he paid for it in the 60s, as is every home in that totally average neighborhood in San Jose, yet wages have gone up maybe 2-3 times in that same period.

I accept the 100x estimate for San Jose real estate prices, but wages have gone up "maybe" 2-3 times in the last 60 years? That's ridiculous. The whole reason prices have gone sky-high in Silicon Valley is because the average pay in the area has skyrocketed as well.

The Great Zaganza · 24th January 2023, 12:30 AM

It's an established psychological fluke that the younger generation is seen as lazy by the older one for a simple reason: they don't do exactly the same work that would be recognizable to the previous generation. Hence it looks like they do less work when in fact they do different work, or do the same work differently.
The fact that productivity keeps rising despite what the oldsters say is proof that they don't know what they are talking about.

The Don · 24th January 2023, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

I accept the 100x estimate for San Jose real estate prices, but wages have gone up "maybe" 2-3 times in the last 60 years? That's ridiculous. The whole reason prices have gone sky-high in Silicon Valley is because the average pay in the area has skyrocketed as well.

Exactly.

Not all pay has skyrocketed though. Those in senior roles in the tech industry are earning well but those in other jobs aren't which means that lots of different people have been priced out of the local market.

This is hardly anything new and I'm not sure whether there's anything that can reasonably be done, or whether it's worth doing anything - it's just the housing market.

TragicMonkey · 24th January 2023, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Not buying it. Averages (and means) mean something and it’s a good way to look at national trends

Knowing what numbers mean and when a particular method of reaching those numbers is meaningful for a particular purpose can be complex and require consideration.

TragicMonkey · 24th January 2023, 06:26 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

It's an established psychological fluke that the younger generation is seen as lazy by the older one for a simple reason: they don't do exactly the same work that would be recognizable to the previous generation. Hence it looks like they do less work when in fact they do different work, or do the same work differently.
The fact that productivity keeps rising despite what the oldsters say is proof that they don't know what they are talking about.

Heh. One of the last things my grandpa said to me was that I didn't work, because my hands aren't callused. He was 103 at the time and my entire profession hadn't existed half so long as he had.

The Don · 24th January 2023, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Heh. One of the last things my grandpa said to me was that I didn't work, because my hands aren't callused. He was 103 at the time and my entire profession hadn't existed half so long as he had.

OTOH, my grandfather who was a miner his entire working life (14-65 apart from during WWII where he volunteered despite being in a reserved occupation) was delighted that I was aspiring to an indoor job with no heavy lifting (as Pterry would say).

Thermal · 24th January 2023, 07:42 AM

One of my kids very sweetly wanted to get into construction like her daddy. While touching, I became concerned that she was brain damaged, and explained clearly to her that hobby woodworking on the weekends is where it's at, while she worked a safe and rewarding gig elsewhere. She is no slouch on a wood lathe, and has made some beautiful serving trays for us with complex inlaid patterns, while she finishes up her BioTech degree this semester.

dann · 24th January 2023, 08:15 AM

How come the entitled always complain about other people being entitled?

Shalamar · 24th January 2023, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by dann

How come the entitled always complain about other people being entitled?

They feel entitled to complain.

ZirconBlue · 24th January 2023, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Wages:

https://www.dollartimes.com/inflatio...s-minimum-wage

Quote:

In the year 1963, the United States minimum wage was $1.25.

This is equivalent to $12.20 in 2023 dollars.

So 10 times not two or three.

The current Federal Minimum Wage is only $7.25. So, adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage has decreased.

Carrot Flower King · 24th January 2023, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by The Don

OTOH, my grandfather who was a miner his entire working life (14-65 apart from during WWII where he volunteered despite being in a reserved occupation) was delighted that I was aspiring to an indoor job with no heavy lifting (as Pterry would say).

Sounds like part of my family: the last coal face worker made damn sure his 3 sons, including my grandfather, got an education and got the **** out of digging coal in Waterhouses. We've been a bunch of teachers, physios and nurses (all well known shirkers...) since then.

sackett · 24th January 2023, 12:39 PM

Psychologists generally opine that fathers never want their sons to surpass them. I won't try to contradict that opinion; pros who examine thousands of cases are worth listening to.

I will venture to modify their statement: SOME fathers are eager to see their sons gain a better life, and will strive to help them do it -- if they can. I believe that the headshrinkers' sample is biased toward the upper middle class, and that they seldom meet a miner's kid.

TragicMonkey · 24th January 2023, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Psychologists generally opine that fathers never want their sons to surpass them.

Childless here myself, but isn't one of the points of having children at all is to create a work that surpasses you? Launch into a future a being that takes the best of yourself and improves upon it, so that you bequeath to the universe a legacy beyond what you were able to do yourself in your limited time?

lobosrul5 · 24th January 2023, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

The current Federal Minimum Wage is only $7.25. So, adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage has decreased.

You can see what the federal min wage has been in "constant inflation adjusted dollars" in the below linked chart.

https://www.infoplease.com/business/...ates-1955-2021

Note, that it ends in 2021, so take about another 12 or 13% off for 2023 (makes it $3.68 in 1996 dollars by my math). You can see how good the people entering the workforce in the 60's and 70's had it! Late 80's was also pretty ******, it was stuck at $3.35 for years.

Of course, I've now seen McDonalds advertising $13/hr in my area. Target now pays a minimum of $15, as examples.

23rd January 2023, 07:43 AM	#1
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War Posts: 53,857	Old buzzard retired for 20 years says "woke generation" is too lazy to lead business Also says that trying to stop global warming will destroy business. And screams at clouds and kids on his lawn. Home Depot's cofounder — who retired in 2002 — says he doesn't want the 'woke generation' leading business because of their 'laziness' Quote: Home Depot cofounder Bernie Marcus is adamant he doesn't want the "woke generation" leading business. He told Fox Business that "nobody wants to work anymore" because of "laziness" and government benefits. Home Depot has distanced itself from Marcus, noting he hasn't worked at the company in 20 years. Home Depot's 93-year-old cofounder Bernie Marcus — who retired in 2002 — says he doesn't want the "woke generation" leading business, arguing that they would spend money "we don't have" on climate mitigation and wouldn't focus on the bottom line. Speaking on Fox Business Network's "Varney & Co" on Thursday, Marcus — who no longer has any day-to-day involvement with the company — said: "I certainly don't want to see the woke generation coming up, especially the leaders." He said that he had been following the World Economic Forum's annual meeting in Davos "and they're recommending spending more money on climate control when we don't have it. We've already overspent. And if anything, climate control has caused most of the problems we have today." Quote: "We need leaders who are basically thinking about the shareholders and their employees," Marcus added. "And I think today it's all about woke diversity, things that don't hit the bottom line." Marcus provided little evidence for these claims. A 2020 report by consultancy giant McKinsey & Company actually found that companies who have more diverse leadership are more likely to report higher profitability. Marcus, who was a major donor to Donald Trump's 2016 and 2020 presidential campaigns, also spoke about the labor market, saying that people "don't want to work." "You can't hire people," he said. "Nobody wants to work anymore, especially office people." Marcus said that the reason that people didn't want to work is that "they're entitled, they're given everything," adding that government unemployment benefits were pushing people to stay at home. "So you get this laziness ... and it's basically a socialistic society," he said. Marcus also said that people wanted to work "three days a week," possibly referring to the growth in demand for flexible working during the pandemic, as well as the recent push for a four-day workweek. Well ** you, you rich old worthless douchebag *****. You'll be dead soon and the world will go on and forget about you.
	__________________ "Yes, I'll be around for many more centuries. You, meanwhile, will have long ago been turned into value dog food, despite your express wishes to the contrary." -- JihadJane

23rd January 2023, 08:01 AM	#2
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,315	It's easy to forget somebody you never heard of before.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

23rd January 2023, 08:10 AM	#3
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 11,475	93 year old man says "Things were better in my day". News at 11. Seriously, if he were still in charge then maybe people might care about what he says but he's been retired over 20 years. Why should anyone give him airtime? Oh right, it's Fox.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara

23rd January 2023, 08:27 AM	#5
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,315	My frenz doan drive Porsches, they's all on the make Originally Posted by The Don It's only anecdotal but young people today seem to have a lot more "hustle" and are far more entrepreneurial than I was back in my day. When just making the rent can be a full-time job, you learn to hustle and muscle. Remember when you could afford to tune in, turn on, and drop out?
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

23rd January 2023, 08:49 AM	#6
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 15,088	I dunno. I think his statement that diversity doesn't hit the bottom line is pretty much the end of it. It shows he has no real clue how business functions today. I don't believe there's any large, successful business in the U.S. that doesn't at least go through the motions of supporting diversity...the ones that come out against it tend to face a significant impact to their bottom line.
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

23rd January 2023, 08:15 AM	#4
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,395	It's only anecdotal but young people today seem to have a lot more "hustle" and are far more entrepreneurial than I was back in my day.

23rd January 2023, 08:52 AM	#7
ahhell Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,176	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan 93 year old man says "Things were better in my day". News at 11. Seriously, if he were still in charge then maybe people might care about what he says but he's been retired over 20 years. Why should anyone give him airtime? Oh right, it's Fox. Kids these days, am I right?
ahhell Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,176

23rd January 2023, 08:58 AM	#8
Elaedith Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,411	Originally Posted by ahhell Kids these days, am I right? Old people these days, what is wrong with them?
Elaedith Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,411	__________________ "The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." - Salman Rushdie.

23rd January 2023, 09:06 AM	#9
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,387	Originally Posted by Hellbound I dunno. I think his statement that diversity doesn't hit the bottom line is pretty much the end of it. It shows he has no real clue how business functions today. I don't believe there's any large, successful business in the U.S. that doesn't at least go through the motions of supporting diversity...the ones that come out against it tend to face a significant impact to their bottom line. You aren't actually contradicting him, though. What you're saying is that for public relations purposes companies have to appear to agree with "diversity". But you aren't actually claiming that diversity is in and of itself a good thing. And that's what he's addressing. "Diversity" is popular, but popularity doesn't make something actually good. And I'm using quotes because only certain kinds of diversity count, many pro-"diversity" actions actually seek to enforce uniformity.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

23rd January 2023, 09:10 AM	#10
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,501	Originally Posted by Ziggurat You aren't actually contradicting him, though. What you're saying is that for public relations purposes companies have to appear to agree with "diversity". But you aren't actually claiming that diversity is in and of itself a good thing. And that's what he's addressing. "Diversity" is popular, but popularity doesn't make something actually good. And I'm using quotes because only certain kinds of diversity count, many pro-"diversity" actions actually seek to enforce uniformity. If opposing something hurts your bottom line, it's kinda silly to say being seen supporting it does nothing for your bottom line. And in capitalism nothing is "good" or "bad" unless it affects your bottom line positively or negatively.

23rd January 2023, 09:34 AM	#11
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War Posts: 53,857	Originally Posted by Elaedith Old people these days, what is wrong with them? Damn right! Of course, I am 65, but I don't consider anyone old until they're at least 25 years older than me. I'm still middle age! And that old buzzard is 93 so he qualifies!
	__________________ "Yes, I'll be around for many more centuries. You, meanwhile, will have long ago been turned into value dog food, despite your express wishes to the contrary." -- JihadJane

23rd January 2023, 09:41 AM	#12
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,360	He's still mad about the labor expenses he incurred after 13th Amendment.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

23rd January 2023, 11:00 AM	#13
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,387	Originally Posted by wareyin If opposing something hurts your bottom line, it's kinda silly to say being seen supporting it does nothing for your bottom line. The whole point which you studiously missed is that it isn't the actual thing you need, but only the appearance of the thing. Can you really not comprehend the difference?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

23rd January 2023, 11:35 AM	#14
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,501	Originally Posted by Ziggurat The whole point which you studiously missed is that it isn't the actual thing you need, but only the appearance of the thing. Can you really not comprehend the difference? Ahhh, this is one of those things where giving the appearance of doing something is the exact same thing as actually doing it, but you know deep in their heart they don't mean it so it doesn't count? Like...the conservatives spouting stupid conspiracy theories about stolen elections deep within their secret hearts know they aren't true so we shouldn't write them off as conspiracy theorists?

23rd January 2023, 11:40 AM	#15
Carrot Flower King Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 3,618	Originally Posted by Elaedith Old people these days, what is wrong with them? Run out of clouds to shout at?

23rd January 2023, 11:42 AM	#16
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,387	Originally Posted by wareyin Ahhh, this is one of those things where giving the appearance of doing something is the exact same thing as actually doing it It's one of those things where the only claimed benefit comes from the appearance, not the actual thing. You have not actually argued that there's any benefit at all, and Hellbound explicitly appealed to a benefit which comes from the appearance. Whether the actual thing will produce different results than the mere appearance has not yet even been asserted. If that is your position, you are free to make such an argument, but it has not yet been made.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

23rd January 2023, 11:46 AM	#17
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,501	Originally Posted by Ziggurat It's one of those things where the only claimed benefit comes from the appearance, not the actual thing. You have not actually argued that there's any benefit at all, and Hellbound explicitly appealed to a benefit which comes from the appearance. Whether the actual thing will produce different results than the mere appearance has not yet even been asserted. If that is your position, you are free to make such an argument, but it has not yet been made. What is the functional difference between appearing to have a diverse workforce and having a diverse workforce? Is Home Depot requiring employees to wear blackface and/or cross dress in order to only appear to not [eta: only] hire white guys?

23rd January 2023, 04:12 PM	#18
Arcade22 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 7,587	Climate control has caused more damage than it prevented, says old worthless shrived up husk that would surely have died without AC. Although that makes me think he might be on to something... Maybe future heat waves are a blessing in disguise...
	__________________ We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann Last edited by Arcade22; 23rd January 2023 at 04:15 PM.

23rd January 2023, 04:22 PM	#19
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	Originally Posted by sackett When just making the rent can be a full-time job, you learn to hustle and muscle. Remember when you could afford to tune in, turn on, and drop out? My Dad's first house is worth 100 times more than he paid for it in the 60s, as is every home in that totally average neighborhood in San Jose, yet wages have gone up maybe 2-3 times in that same period.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624

23rd January 2023, 05:13 PM	#20
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,860	I guess he does not get that catrasrophic climate change will be very bad for the bottom line.....
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

23rd January 2023, 05:20 PM	#21
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,015	Originally Posted by dudalb I guess he does not get that catrasrophic climate change will be very bad for the bottom line..... HD will gladly sell you insulation and AC units.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

23rd January 2023, 05:42 PM	#22
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 52,925	Originally Posted by mgidm86 My Dad's first house is worth 100 times more than he paid for it in the 60s, as is every home in that totally average neighborhood in San Jose, yet wages have gone up maybe 2-3 times in that same period. I suggest your estimate of wages growth is way out of kilter, it has been much higher. And the increase in house values is much lower. Wages: https://www.dollartimes.com/inflatio...s-minimum-wage Quote: In the year 1963, the United States minimum wage was $1.25. This is equivalent to $12.20 in 2023 dollars . So 10 times not two or three. Houses: https://www.supermoney.com/inflation...d-home-prices/ Quote: In 2020, the median sales price of a home was $391,300. That is 20 times the $19,300 average sales price in 1963! How can you say housing affordability hasn’t changed? Consider all the data before you jump to a conclusion. That’s 20 times, not 100.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

23rd January 2023, 06:27 PM	#23
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 80,951	Just goes to show that if you use "woke" as a pejorative noun, you should really take a look at who else does so, and have a good hard think about the company you're keeping.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

23rd January 2023, 06:43 PM	#24
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,360	Originally Posted by lionking I suggest your estimate of wages growth is way out of kilter, it has been much higher. And the increase in house values is much lower. Wages: https://www.dollartimes.com/inflatio...s-minimum-wage . So 10 times not two or three. Houses: https://www.supermoney.com/inflation...d-home-prices/ That’s 20 times, not 100. The US is a big country, you shouldn't use national averages to do such math. Both real estate prices and wages are very local things.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

23rd January 2023, 10:47 PM	#25
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 52,925	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey The US is a big country, you shouldn't use national averages to do such math. Both real estate prices and wages are very local things. Not buying it. Averages (and means) mean something and it’s a good way to look at national trends. Besides do you think it likely that whole communities could have grown 100 times when the nation grew by 20? Because I don’t. Personal anecdotes do not carry much weight.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

23rd January 2023, 11:31 PM	#26
Shepherd Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 423	San Jose is part of Silicon Valley, I do believe. "Silicon Valley, a region located in the southern part of the San Francisco Bay Area, is one of the most expensive regions to live in the United States, and many residents lack access to affordable housing. In 2018, the median home price across the area was $1.18 million, the highest of the 100 largest metro areas in the U.S." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afford...Silicon_Valley
Shepherd Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 423

23rd January 2023, 11:35 PM	#27
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 19,734	Originally Posted by mgidm86 My Dad's first house is worth 100 times more than he paid for it in the 60s, as is every home in that totally average neighborhood in San Jose, yet wages have gone up maybe 2-3 times in that same period. I accept the 100x estimate for San Jose real estate prices, but wages have gone up "maybe" 2-3 times in the last 60 years? That's ridiculous. The whole reason prices have gone sky-high in Silicon Valley is because the average pay in the area has skyrocketed as well.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

24th January 2023, 12:30 AM	#28
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,553	It's an established psychological fluke that the younger generation is seen as lazy by the older one for a simple reason: they don't do exactly the same work that would be recognizable to the previous generation. Hence it looks like they do less work when in fact they do different work, or do the same work differently. The fact that productivity keeps rising despite what the oldsters say is proof that they don't know what they are talking about.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

24th January 2023, 01:11 AM	#29
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,395	Originally Posted by Brainster I accept the 100x estimate for San Jose real estate prices, but wages have gone up "maybe" 2-3 times in the last 60 years? That's ridiculous. The whole reason prices have gone sky-high in Silicon Valley is because the average pay in the area has skyrocketed as well. Exactly. Not all pay has skyrocketed though. Those in senior roles in the tech industry are earning well but those in other jobs aren't which means that lots of different people have been priced out of the local market. This is hardly anything new and I'm not sure whether there's anything that can reasonably be done, or whether it's worth doing anything - it's just the housing market.

24th January 2023, 06:22 AM	#30
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,360	Originally Posted by lionking Not buying it. Averages (and means) mean something and it’s a good way to look at national trends Knowing what numbers mean and when a particular method of reaching those numbers is meaningful for a particular purpose can be complex and require consideration.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

24th January 2023, 06:26 AM	#31
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 65,360	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza It's an established psychological fluke that the younger generation is seen as lazy by the older one for a simple reason: they don't do exactly the same work that would be recognizable to the previous generation. Hence it looks like they do less work when in fact they do different work, or do the same work differently. The fact that productivity keeps rising despite what the oldsters say is proof that they don't know what they are talking about. Heh. One of the last things my grandpa said to me was that I didn't work, because my hands aren't callused. He was 103 at the time and my entire profession hadn't existed half so long as he had.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

24th January 2023, 06:58 AM	#32
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,395	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Heh. One of the last things my grandpa said to me was that I didn't work, because my hands aren't callused. He was 103 at the time and my entire profession hadn't existed half so long as he had. OTOH, my grandfather who was a miner his entire working life (14-65 apart from during WWII where he volunteered despite being in a reserved occupation) was delighted that I was aspiring to an indoor job with no heavy lifting (as Pterry would say).

24th January 2023, 07:42 AM	#33
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,971	One of my kids very sweetly wanted to get into construction like her daddy. While touching, I became concerned that she was brain damaged, and explained clearly to her that hobby woodworking on the weekends is where it's at, while she worked a safe and rewarding gig elsewhere. She is no slouch on a wood lathe, and has made some beautiful serving trays for us with complex inlaid patterns, while she finishes up her BioTech degree this semester.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

24th January 2023, 08:15 AM	#34
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,398	How come the entitled always complain about other people being entitled?
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

24th January 2023, 10:38 AM	#35
Shalamar Dark Lord of the JREF Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Somewhere Else Posts: 5,652	Originally Posted by dann How come the entitled always complain about other people being entitled? They feel entitled to complain.
	__________________ "The truth is out there. But the lies are inside your head."