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Tags depression , psychiatry

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Old 15th June 2016, 10:11 AM   #81
blutoski
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
So the atheist thinks that anyone who counsels people for a living represents the state of modern psychologists with phDs working out of hospitals and clinics, plenty of MDs out there prescribing homeopathy or pushing anti-vaxx woo, not a lot of them work in prestigious or government-run institutions... they tend to move to private practice after getting fired or being made to feel like idiots. Says nothing about the state of science, more that woos come in all flavors. I highly doubt his friend went to a genuine pyschologist either.
Oh, it's possible, no doubt about it, but anecdotal and pretty useless as evidence of a general problem.

Here's a counterexample: when I was a teenager, I had a sore back. Great luck! My Family Practitioner was also a chiropractor. He flipped me around on his table an pulled and yanked and shoved every other week for about two years. No improvement, obviously. "Need more sessions," was his recommendation. He retired, and the new doc who bought his practice took two minutes to diagnose a herniated disc and personally walked me to emergency for surgery.

Everything that first FP did was legit according to the College and the Ministry.

In a million years, I would never translate that experience into "Medicine is a failure!"

Here's a second frustrating example... my wife's 3rd round with cancer was probably caused by the treatment for the 2nd round. One of the risks associated with radiation therapy is... cancer. I'll do some research, but I'll bet there's a higher incidence of cancer from cancer treatments than suicide from antidepressants. Both paradoxical side effects are disappointing, but neither is an indictment of their respective specialties (oncology and psychiatry).
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Old 15th June 2016, 11:09 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Hi,
I think you need to get to your local treatment center and volunteer.
Not everyone has a misdiagnosis. As an outreach case manager I conducted weekly assessments, so about 360 initial assessments at that job. For 18 months I did 4 assessments three weeks a month so about 228 there. Then there were about 600 crisis assessments or walk ins.

We refer ed to providers. based upon their preference and desire, most asked to see the psychiatrist.

Now at both agencies they had case loads of clients who were doc only, they could have had counseling but chose not to.

Now the point of this is this question:

How many people who have lived with a major mental illness have you known? Professionally I knew well over a thousand, personally about 20.
I have little personal experience in this area. My opinions are based on the studies I have reviewed and the opinions of dissenting professionals.

Quote:
Professionally they were all people who sought treatment and continued treatment because they recognized the benefit of medical treatments, and for those with treatment resistant symptoms, they still sought out treatment on their own.

Personally I knew people who sought counseling and those who sought medical treatment. Some are on long term treatment most are not.
I have not claimed that there are no benefits from the current state of the practice of psychiatry. My claim is that the science is on a poor footing and treatments are prescribed with inadequate evidence for efficacy and safety -- especially when dealing with children.

Quote:
So what exactly is your experience that makes you think a person with florid symptoms of bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or major depression:
-do not benefit from psychiatric treatment ?
-benefit solely from non-medical treatment ?

At what point do you think suicide comes into this?

How many people with untreated major depression or schizophrenia kill themselves?
How many people with treated depression or schizophrenia kill themselves?

Quote:
I really question your obvious prejudice against psychiatry and ask you to explore the other side.

Have you ever read Fred Freese?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Frese

Have you ever read Surviving Schizophrenia by E Fuller Torrey?

I do not mean to be rude but have you ever challenged your conceptions?
Consider this comparison:

As you know, from many of the threads in this forum, there are a host of people who do not accept mainstream physics. They posture against the theory of relativity (for example). They are crackpots. They have no education or credentials in physics; often, they do not even have a grasp of the mathematics involved to even begin a conversation. There are very few (if any) real physicists with PhDs who buy into (so-called) alternative theories regarding relativity.

In contrast, I have sited (in this thread and in one other) many experts from major universities and who have held important positions in psychiatry, who are quite critical when it comes to the treatments and drugs used today. These criticisms have been made in papers and books written by these experts and for the most part deal with the inadequacy of the science behind these treatments and drugs.
As a layman in this area, I find this both revealing and troubling. Most of the responses I have had when I site these papers and books is character assassination directed at these experts and at me for siting the information.

However, I do appreciate the civil comments you have offered since, in my world, everything is up for revision in science. I will continue to evaluate my opinions.
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Old 15th June 2016, 12:09 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I have not claimed that there are no benefits from the current state of the practice of psychiatry. My claim is that the science is on a poor footing and treatments are prescribed with inadequate evidence for efficacy and safety -- especially when dealing with children.
That is the point absolutely nailed. See, you're much less blunt than me - I like to use a shovel instead of a scalpel.

Unfortunately, when skeptics see criticism of a sacred cow, they tend to see your position as "OMFG!!11!!! This person says psychiatry never works and is teh bad."
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Old 15th June 2016, 12:24 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
When I was a kid I watched The Snake Pit, featuring Olivia de Havilland as a raving loony who gets locked in a padded cell during the 1920s.

We've come such a long way since then.

A case has come to light of an autistic man who has not been convicted of crimes, but who has been held in a small cell in solitary confinement for 5 years because psychiatric medicine can't calm the bloke down enough to handle.

This is rightly causing national outrage, especially since an unknown number of other people are held in similar circumstances, and that over 7000 people were held in solitary confinement due to mental illness in NZ last year.

To me, this is an indictment on an industry that has failed to make progress in the past century. They're still using ECT, they're still locking people up in solitary whose only crime is to be sick, and they're still prescribing drugs that are worse than the "cure".

Physician, heal thyself!
ECT works quite well, it sounds bad but outcomes improve quality of life.
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Old 15th June 2016, 12:48 PM   #85
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He says he knows better because he's a mathematician and knows what real science is from that and reading books on physics.

Reminds me of this

Quote:
This phenomenon is so prevalent that users of talk.origins have come up with the Salem Hypothesis, which predicts that any creationist claiming scientific expertise or advanced degrees is likely to be an engineer.[2] Of course, this does not mean that engineers are likely to be creationists.

The phenomenon also applies to some fields of computer science, such as software engineering, which are more applied mathematics than science.

Quantitative evidence of this is lacking, but it has been noted on the internet frequently.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo
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Old 15th June 2016, 12:50 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That is the point absolutely nailed. See, you're much less blunt than me - I like to use a shovel instead of a scalpel.

Unfortunately, when skeptics see criticism of a sacred cow, they tend to see your position as "OMFG!!11!!! This person says psychiatry never works and is teh bad."
This is also complete horse ****, as has been pointed out many times to Perp, here and elsewhere. The DSM is imperfect, psychiatry is the most difficult medicine, there are no biological markers, this doesn't make it not science. Everyone already knew that, never tried to hide it. The bit about not being safe for children is also a stretch. There's no evidence of that yet after how many years? And all medications have risks, how about certain risk of having a ********** up life and not functioning well enough to enjoy it? Total blather.

Here's the correct version of reality for you to understand.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...of-psychiatry/
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...iatry-bashing/

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Old 15th June 2016, 01:06 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I have little personal experience in this area. My opinions are based on the studies I have reviewed and the opinions of dissenting professionals.


I have not claimed that there are no benefits from the current state of the practice of psychiatry. My claim is that the science is on a poor footing and treatments are prescribed with inadequate evidence for efficacy and safety -- especially when dealing with children.


How many people with treated depression or schizophrenia kill themselves?


Consider this comparison:

As you know, from many of the threads in this forum, there are a host of people who do not accept mainstream physics. They posture against the theory of relativity (for example). They are crackpots. They have no education or credentials in physics; often, they do not even have a grasp of the mathematics involved to even begin a conversation. There are very few (if any) real physicists with PhDs who buy into (so-called) alternative theories regarding relativity.

In contrast, I have sited (in this thread and in one other) many experts from major universities and who have held important positions in psychiatry, who are quite critical when it comes to the treatments and drugs used today. These criticisms have been made in papers and books written by these experts and for the most part deal with the inadequacy of the science behind these treatments and drugs.
As a layman in this area, I find this both revealing and troubling. Most of the responses I have had when I site these papers and books is character assassination directed at these experts and at me for siting the information.

However, I do appreciate the civil comments you have offered since, in my world, everything is up for revision in science. I will continue to evaluate my opinions.
That is all I can ask for and I will tell you that the people who seek and engage in successful treatment are around you everyday.
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Old 15th June 2016, 01:08 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
ECT works quite well, it sounds bad but outcomes improve quality of life.
Truth!

It was certainly overused at one time, now it is for only a small subset of treatment refractory depression, with no other options. The voltages are much lower and the effects are ameliorated with benzodiazepines.
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Old 15th June 2016, 01:12 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Truth!

It was certainly overused at one time, now it is for only a small subset of treatment refractory depression, with no other options. The voltages are much lower and the effects are ameliorated with benzodiazepines.
Yeah, I'm baffled by the inclusion of that with a post. It's still being used because it works.

Meanwhile, on the Medical side, MDs are still handing out Aspirin after 120 years... because it works. Not sure why anybody would consider this a credible datapoint for a claim that Medicine is a failure.
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Old 15th June 2016, 01:34 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
This is also complete horse ****,

.... a ********** up life ....
Nice work on proving my case on civility at ISF.
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Old 15th June 2016, 01:51 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Meanwhile, on the Medical side, MDs are still handing out Aspirin after 120 years... because it works. Not sure why anybody would consider this a credible datapoint for a claim that Medicine is a failure.
Most aspirin taken is taken for reasons of heart health, a completely different use to its original one, so it's an excellent highlight of the difference between the two disciplines.

Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Truth!

It was certainly overused at one time, now it is for only a small subset of treatment refractory depression, with no other options. The voltages are much lower and the effects are ameliorated with benzodiazepines.
Yet the US Surgeon-General states:

The Surgeon General's Report on Mental Health states that patients should be warned that the benefits of ECT are short-lived without active continuation treatment in the form of drugs or further ECT, and that there may be some risk of permanent, severe memory loss after ECT

Scientific criticism of ECT:

Quote:
There is no evidence at all that the treatment has any benefit for anyone lasting beyond a few days. ECT does not prevent suicide. The short-term benefit that is gained by some simply does not warrant the risks involved.
Read & Bentall

Quote:
The current statement for patients from the Royal College of Psychiatrists that over 80% of patients are satisfied with electroconvulsive therapy and that memory loss is not clinically important is unfounded.
Rose et al.

Fancy psychiatry making false claims about outcomes - who'da thought?

Yes, those are slightly dated, being a decade old, so post some evidence that outcomes and memory loss have improved and I'll consider it.
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Old 15th June 2016, 02:15 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
It's not surprising that taking a position and making a case against mainstream thinking may lead one to "go overboard." ....
That is not what I said, Perpetual Student.
The authors took the mainstream position with a reasonable account of the shortcomings of psychiatry that the mainstream already knows about.
For example the DSM explicitly states that it is not a "cookbook" and that clinical judgment needs to be applied.

They went overboard with advocating a “nonmedicalized” future according to the review as if successful treatment of psychiatric conditions with medications did not exist. I backed this up with examples of obviously successful medications: lithium and Prozac. The WHO Model List of Essential Medicines lists more.
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Old 15th June 2016, 02:41 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yet the US Surgeon-General states:
The US Surgeon-General stated in 1999 what is standard practice for all responsible doctors of informing patients about the benefits and risks of any treatment.
If you need insulin for diabetes then you will be warned of the risks.
If you go into surgery then you will be warned of the risks.
If you need ECT then you will be warned of the risks.

Citing 2 cherry picked, "slightly dated" papers to support a position is bad, The Atheist.
You partially quote Read & Bentall (PDF)
Quote:
An earlier review, by one of the current authors (Read, 2004), concluded that: “There is no evidence at all that the treatment has any benefit for anyone lasting beyond a few days. ECT does not prevent suicide. The short-term benefit that is gained by some simply does not warrant the risks involved”.
That opinion by Read from 2004 is wrong: 50% of people have a year long response
Quote:
A round of ECT is effective for about 50% of people with treatment-resistant major depressive disorder, whether it is unipolar or bipolar.[6] Follow-up treatment is still poorly studied, but about half of people who respond relapse within 12 months.[7]

Patients’ perspectives on electroconvulsive therapy: systematic review (PDF) is from 2003.
This is the current (2016 ) current statement for patients from the Royal College of Psychiatrists
Quote:
Q What are the side-effects of ECT?
...
Memory problems can be a longer-term side effect. Surveys conducted by doctors and clinical staff usually find a low level of severe side-effects, maybe around 1 in 10. Patient-led surveys have found much more, maybe in half of those having ECT. Some surveys conducted by those strongly against ECT say there are severe side-effects in everyone.
Q What do patients think of ECT?
In 2003 researchers analysed all the work which had been done on patients' experiences of ECT. They found that the proportion of people who had had ECT and found it helpful ranged from 30% to 80%. The researchers commented that studies reporting lower satisfaction tended to have been conducted by patients, and those reporting higher satisfaction were carried out by doctors. Between 30% and 50% of patients complained of difficulties with memory after ECT.
Those researchers in 2003 are probably the paper you cited. That is how science works !
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Old 15th June 2016, 02:42 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
That is not what I said, Perpetual Student.
The authors took the mainstream position with a reasonable account of the shortcomings of psychiatry that the mainstream already knows about.
For example the DSM explicitly states that it is not a "cookbook" and that clinical judgment needs to be applied.

They went overboard with advocating a “nonmedicalized” future according to the review as if successful treatment of psychiatric conditions with medications did not exist. I backed this up with examples of obviously successful medications: lithium and Prozac. The WHO Model List of Essential Medicines lists more.
Careless reading on my part, sorry.
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Old 15th June 2016, 02:43 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Most aspirin taken is taken for reasons of heart health
I doubt it. I'll bet it's still a popular 'aches and pains' remedy.


Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
a completely different use to its original one, so it's an excellent highlight of the difference between the two disciplines.
Not sure why... ECT is used for different diagnoses today than when it was introduced, too. It was originally used as a 2nd attempt to treat schizophrenia (1st attempt would be via insulin shock, which has been discontinued as ECT is safer and more effective), it has only recently evolved to be a last resort for clinical depression that has not responded to previous therapies.



Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
As he should. This is how it's used. In conjunction with other treatments, or as part of a treatment course. One zap does not help, that's the message. Like antibiotics. Do the full course, there may be side effects.


Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Scientific criticism of ECT:



Read & Bentall



Rose et al.

Fancy psychiatry making false claims about outcomes - who'da thought?
Not sure where you're making that connection, from the citations you provided, but not sure it matters, because I think you're not really interested in evaluating this fairly. For example, if I found a paper exposing weak or overhyped claims in oncology, would you add oncology to the list of fraudulent medical specialties?



Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yes, those are slightly dated, being a decade old, so post some evidence that outcomes and memory loss have improved and I'll consider it.
Improved compared to when? 1900?

Two concerns... one is that the studies are focussing on specific outcomes, which are not actually the primary reason for treatment. For example, the finding that it "doesn't reduce suicide" outcomes is not very problematic, since that's not the intended outcome.

Secondly, it really doesn't sound like you're making any attempt to compare psychiatry with other medical specialties, just digging around for criticisms of psychiatry, basically cherry picking. It's like dealing with an altmedder, only the obsession is fixated on just one specialty.

ETA, and now a thread on how Freud's grandson is a pedophile. I'm going to double down on my 'obsession' theory. Feels like some psychiatry denial community has sunk its claws into you.
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Old 15th June 2016, 03:04 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The US Surgeon-General stated in 1999 what is standard practice for all responsible doctors of informing patients about the benefits and risks of any treatment.
If you need insulin for diabetes then you will be warned of the risks.
If you go into surgery then you will be warned of the risks.
If you need ECT then you will be warned of the risks.

Citing 2 cherry picked, "slightly dated" papers to support a position is bad, The Atheist.
You partially quote Read & Bentall (PDF)

That opinion by Read from 2004 is wrong: 50% of people have a year long response



Patients’ perspectives on electroconvulsive therapy: systematic review (PDF) is from 2003.
This is the current (2016 ) current statement for patients from the Royal College of Psychiatrists

Those researchers in 2003 are probably the paper you cited. That is how science works !
I didn't want to have to look all this up... again. What you post squares with my research about 3 years ago when my wife's shrink wanted to do ECT. I researched ECT (both generally and specific to the shrink and hospital. I also researched the alternatives, which were few. ECT was largely the choice of last resort.

One of the criteria for ECT (per my research and the shrink) is the patient must be non-responsive to a variety of anti-depression meds *OR* refusing medication. Which means people doing ECT have an effectively untreated, severe. and pernicious depression, likely with additional features. In such cases 50% improvement even for a year is dramatic.
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Old 15th June 2016, 03:53 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nice work on proving my case on civility at ISF.
"I always think it's a sign of victory when they move on to the ad hominem." - Christopher Hitchens

So I said BS, and then described a life living with extreme mental illness as being ********** up, and now I'm being mean. Thanks for the laugh.

Even if I was, which I wasn't

"Civility is overrated" Hitch

I am the impeccable model of civility when people aren't telling parents to take kids of off drugs and not to go to psychologists when you have anxiety.

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Old 15th June 2016, 03:55 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
Careless reading on my part, sorry.
Like how you used the words of an expert to say the exact opposite of what he said when you said he claimed that psychiatry is not science? A pattern appears.
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Old 15th June 2016, 09:26 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I doubt it. I'll bet it's still a popular 'aches and pains' remedy.
Jesus H Christ.

Here you are debating medical science and you don't even know about aspirin?

Live and learn.

1

2

3

I'd venture that over 90% of aspirin used in 2016 is for coronary health. In fact, every chemist and supermarket I go to only has the 75 mg tablets, which are manufactured solely for that use.

Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
ETA, and now a thread on how Freud's grandson is a pedophile. I'm going to double down on my 'obsession' theory. Feels like some psychiatry denial community has sunk its claws into you.
How typical you'd go down that track.

In case you hadn't noticed, that forum section is entitled "Current Affairs"? The news came out yesterday, so it's definitely current. I didn't offer any commentary on Sigmund, but even a century after his time people still know his name.

The lengths you people go to try to poison the well.

Take a look at it - in 10 years I've started hundreds of threads, more than almost any other member.

Two of them are about psychiatry, yet I am somehow "obsessed" with it, despite less than 1% of my threads being on the subject.

You're a legend, mate.
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Old 16th June 2016, 08:37 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I didn't want to have to look all this up... again. What you post squares with my research about 3 years ago when my wife's shrink wanted to do ECT. I researched ECT (both generally and specific to the shrink and hospital. I also researched the alternatives, which were few. ECT was largely the choice of last resort.

One of the criteria for ECT (per my research and the shrink) is the patient must be non-responsive to a variety of anti-depression meds *OR* refusing medication. Which means people doing ECT have an effectively untreated, severe. and pernicious depression, likely with additional features. In such cases 50% improvement even for a year is dramatic.
Refusing medication is a right, however the psychiatrists I knew used ECT sparingly and really would have preferred to not use it.

I only personally worked with two clients who received it, both for break out symptoms after two years without ECT
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Old 16th June 2016, 09:08 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...
The lengths you people go to try to poison the well.

Take a look at it - in 10 years I've started hundreds of threads, more than almost any other member.

Two of them are about psychiatry, yet I am somehow "obsessed" with it, despite less than 1% of my threads being on the subject.

You're a legend, mate.
There are a few people here whose main tactic is to use innuendo, character assassination and name calling instead of discussing scientific data and using logic. Over the years, I have found such people to be zealots whose knowledge is superficial, at best.
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Old 16th June 2016, 09:12 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Most aspirin taken is taken for reasons of heart health, a completely different use to its original one, so it's an excellent highlight of the difference between the two disciplines.

Another BS claim, for which I'm sure you have mountains of evidence you can provide.

What I see, is that aspirin is common marketed and used as an analgesic, for which purpose it is still very effective.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Jesus H Christ.

Here you are debating medical science and you don't even know about aspirin?

Live and learn.
Weren't you the one complaining about incivility? Where's the exploding irony meter...

You do realize those links do not say what you are claiming they say, right?

Quote:
I'd venture that over 90% of aspirin used in 2016 is for coronary health. In fact, every chemist and supermarket I go to only has the 75 mg tablets, which are manufactured solely for that use.

I'd venture that you need to get out more, since I see multiple brands and generic at multiple doses pretty much everywhere I go. Oh, and BTW, I work in the pharmacy industry, so I'm fully aware of the common usages and dosages. And the most common dosage I see prescribed for coronary health is 81mg, not 75mg. As for dosages, CVS, one of the largest pharmacy chains in the US, offers dosages ranging from 16mg (in combination with acetaminophen and caffeine) to 975mg (with 350mg and 500mg doses predominating) most of them OTC, in forms ranging from traditional tablets and capsules, to chewables and suppositories; nearly all of them marketed for the purpose of analgesia (only the 81mg dose is marketed specifically for anti-clotting and coronary health). Walgreens and Riteaid are similar. All of which can be confirmed by looking at their publicly-accessible websites.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about; and are pulling nonsense out of your nether region.
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Old 16th June 2016, 12:08 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
There are a few people here whose main tactic is to use innuendo, character assassination and name calling instead of discussing scientific data and using logic. Over the years, I have found such people to be zealots whose knowledge is superficial, at best.
Haha! You're not wrong, but thanks to good old aspirin, we're plumbing the depths of their lack of knowledge about medicine as it is in 2016.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Another BS claim, for which I'm sure you have mountains of evidence you can provide.
Oh, not just mountains, oceans. Great, wide, rolling oceans.

How about Bloomberg:

Quote:
Aspirin, first developed by Bayer chemist Felix Hoffmann in 1897, has staged a comeback in the past five years after Leverkusen (Germany)-based Bayer funded studies showing the vintage painkiller's anti-blood-clotting ability could also play a role in preventing heart disease, says Erik Gordon, a professor at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business in Ann Arbor. Annual sales climbed to $1.1 billion in 2007, entering true blockbuster drug territory.
Oh no - their entire comeback in the late 20th century was due to heart-usage!

For Zark's sake even Wikipedia could have told you!

Quote:
However, in the mid-1980s, with the relatively new technique of meta-analysis, statistician Richard Peto convinced the U.S. FDA and much of the medical community that the aspirin studies, in aggregate, showed aspirin's effectiveness with relative certainty.[65] By the end of the 1980s, aspirin was widely used as a preventive drug for heart attacks and had regained its former position as the top-selling analgesic in the U.S.
Oh no - their entire comeback in the late 20th century was due to heart-usage!

You are decades out of touch.

They've been helped recently by other analgesics being withdrawn, but aspirin wouldn't have even been in pharmacies in the 1990s but for heart health.

What I see, is that aspirin is common marketed and used as an analgesic, for which purpose it is still very effective.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You do realize those links do not say what you are claiming they say, right?
Matter of fact, I did, but I keep falling into this trap of expecting people to be able to think just a teensy amount.

The links I gave showed that the drug is a major force in heart health, because blutoski, despite his claims of medical knowledge seemed unaware of it. The links I gave did show that up to 30% of over-50s take aspirin for heart health, so I sort of thought that the example of tens of millions of people taking it daily would be sufficient guide that an awful lots gets swallowed that way.

As always, mea culpa.


Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Oh, and BTW, I work in the pharmacy industry, so I'm fully aware of the common usages and dosages.
Receptionist?

Whatever your capacity in the industry, an enormous amount of evidence seems to be escaping your eye.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And the most common dosage I see prescribed for coronary health is 81mg, not 75mg.
Generic figure for OTC products. Some are 100 mg.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about; and are pulling nonsense out of your nether region.
You were talking about irony. That is ironic.

One of the largest events in OTC pharmaceuticals in the past three decades has been the resurrection of acetylsalisylic acid for heart health and it completely passed you by.

But you're an expert - so please carry on.
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Old 16th June 2016, 01:02 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Matter of fact, I did, but I keep falling into this trap of expecting people to be able to think just a teensy amount.

Translation, you have no evidence to support your assertions; and are hoping no one would notice that.

Quote:
The links I gave showed that the drug is a major force in heart health, because blutoski, despite his claims of medical knowledge seemed unaware of it. The links I gave did show that up to 30% of over-50s take aspirin for heart health, so I sort of thought that the example of tens of millions of people taking it daily would be sufficient guide that an awful lots gets swallowed that way.

Which does not in any way support your assertions. Effectively irrelevanmt to the topic in general.

Quote:
Whatever your capacity in the industry, an enormous amount of evidence seems to be escaping your eye.

Which I'm sure you'll provide any moment now. If there's so much evidence, why have you been so consistently unable to provide it?

Quote:
Generic figure for OTC products. Some are 100 mg.

Reading comprehension not your thing either, apparently.

Quote:
One of the largest events in OTC pharmaceuticals in the past three decades has been the resurrection of acetylsalisylic acid for heart health and it completely passed you by.

Okay, if I'm parsing this gibberish correctly... no, I can't parse this gibberish. Aspirin is and has always been the single most popular and commonly available analgesic on the market. What you're claiming makes not the slightest bit of sense.

Quote:
But you're an expert - so please carry on.

If by that you mean, I'm able to actually provide evidence to support my assertions, and you're not, as well as having relevant experience with the subject, then yes I suppose so. At least compared to you.
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Old 16th June 2016, 01:19 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Refusing medication is a right, however the psychiatrists I knew used ECT sparingly and really would have preferred to not use it.

I only personally worked with two clients who received it, both for break out symptoms after two years without ECT
It is a right when you are able to exercise it. When you are delusional and disconnected from reality, not so much. At the time I had been appointed as responsible for making her decisions. Decisions, I might add, in which she was included by my insistence, regardless her connection to reality.

As I said, ECT was a last resort. Next step, if ECT didn't work, or if I didn't allow it, was long term commitment, a decision for which I would have still been responsible. As the Psychotic features had been going for a month, there was little hope of it stopping on it's own.

Now, three years later, she has never expressed regret that I chose ECT for her.
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Old 16th June 2016, 01:27 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
What I see, is that aspirin is common marketed and used as an analgesic, for which purpose it is still very effective.
It's also probably not exactly what I was trying to get across... the intention was to address MDs and their drugs of choice. This is different than consumer demand. People buy homeopathic remedies, but the volume of sales shouldn't be interpreted as medical professionals' preference.

And there's tons of others out there...

warfarin for blood thinning - just as dangerous as it was 60 years ago, no real alternatives on the horizon, used every day, probably few hundred deaths a year.

penicillin, still in use after 90 years for the same indications (infections), still killing a few people here and there, i'm one of those millions who are very allergic to beta lactam antibiotics, for some of my injuries, i was not given antibiotics due to this, there's no alternatives

it just goes on and on, and i don't really understand why TA thinks there's something special about psychiatry's contribution to all of medicine's generally disappointing failure to be perfect


ETA: and my specialization when I did research medicine was autoimmune disorders like lupus. If we think autism management is a failure, lupus has been thwarting researchers seeking a cure for three generations, it's still just symptom management. It's a drag, but I hesitate to describe it as proof that immunology is a failure.
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Old 16th June 2016, 01:35 PM   #107
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FYI: ibuprofen and naproxen products seem to dominate the analgesic market these days; with acetaminophen and aspirin having a smaller market share. I assume that data on Bayer does not include low doses for anti coagulation -- but I'm not sure. Unfortunately, the chart focuses on brand names, not the total market for generic equivalents.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/3...r-pain-relief/
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Old 16th June 2016, 01:36 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Translation, you have no evidence to support your assertions; and are hoping no one would notice that.
Now you're outright lying. The Bloomberg and Wikipedia pieces are completely accurate and prove my point beyond any doubt.

I can see this conversation is over - thanks for your complete lack of input.
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Old 16th June 2016, 02:09 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
FYI: ibuprofen and naproxen products seem to dominate the analgesic market these days; with acetaminophen and aspirin having a smaller market share. I assume that data on Bayer does not include low doses for anti coagulation -- but I'm not sure. Unfortunately, the chart focuses on brand names, not the total market for generic equivalents.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/3...r-pain-relief/
This shows how many 85-100 mg products are on the market in Ca., which gives a good insight into where the marketing money is being spent, and it isn't on analgesia.

66 pages of evidence. The numbers don't lie - over 75% of currently-marketed aspirin are dosed at 81-100mg.

Still, it's nice to have such appalling ignorance self-highlighted by those speaking in favour of psychiatry - it couldn't emphasise the point better that the defence is badly ill-informed.
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Old 16th June 2016, 02:15 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
it just goes on and on, and i don't really understand why TA thinks there's something special about psychiatry's contribution to all of medicine's generally disappointing failure to be perfect

Denialism, plain and simple. Modern psychiatric medicine is a very young science by comparison, and has gone through quite a lot of change in the last few decades, stimulated by dramatic advances in neuroscience; which makes it ripe for attacks by cranks, woos, and denialists.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Now you're outright lying. The Bloomberg and Wikipedia pieces are completely accurate and prove my point beyond any doubt.

I can see this conversation is over - thanks for your complete lack of input.



Others have already addressed this, and the fact that it does not, in fact, support your assertions. But I since I see you didn't bother to address the problems with your copypasta in the other denialist thread either.
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Old 16th June 2016, 02:18 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The Bloomberg and Wikipedia pieces are completely accurate and prove my point beyond any doubt.
That is wrong, The Atheist.
Nonexistent citations of "Bloomberg and Wikipedia pieces" do not prove any point. Short quotes suggesting mining do not prove any point. A couple of what may be cherry picked sources do not prove any point.
Quotes that do not give the amount of aspirin being used for coronary care verses other uses definitely do not "prove my point beyond any doubt" !

You seem to be talking about the Bloomberg article about how aspirin sales climbed after an aggressive marketing campaign based on competitor recalls in 2011: Bayer Aspirin Is Feeling Plenty Healthy

History of aspirin also does not state anywhere that the use of aspirin for heart health has exceeded that of other uses.

Your Most aspirin taken is taken for reasons of heart health,... I'd venture that over 90% of aspirin used in 2016 is for coronary health claim remains unsupported. You do not even support that "most" (51% or 99% ?) assertion.

This is what valid research looks like, The Atheist.
Who sells aspirin? Bayer
What sales figures are available from Bayer? They do annual reports e.g. an annual report for 2013.
How much 2013 revenue did Bayer make from Aspirin™ Cardio? 452 million euros.
How much 2013 revenue did Bayer make from Aspirin™? 464 million euros
The sales of aspirin for heart health were slightly less than for general health in 2013.

How about the Annual Report for 2015?
How much 2015 revenue did Bayer make from Aspirin™ Cardio? 524 million euros.
How much 2015 revenue did Bayer make from Aspirin™? 473 million euros
The sales of aspirin for heart health were more than for general health in 2015 - 53% versus 47%.

Your guess at 90% is wrong. "Most" is a big exaggeration.

This unlikely to be relevant to the thread as The Atheist seems to think. This is a rise in revenue that could be due to marketing, e.g. the report notes an increasing demand in China which should be a new market. That suggests sales to individuals, not the prescription of drugs by doctors comparable to the prescription of psychiatric medications by psychiatrists.

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Old 16th June 2016, 02:55 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post

warfarin for blood thinning - just as dangerous as it was 60 years ago, no real alternatives on the horizon, used every day, probably few hundred deaths a year.
Not a good example. From http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/a...blood-thinners

"Not too long ago, if your doctor said you needed a blood thinner to prevent a stroke, you didn't have to think too hard about it. Warfarin (Coumadin) was the only way to go. But not anymore. With four other medications to pick from, you'll have to do a little homework to figure out what's best for you."
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Old 16th June 2016, 02:59 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
It is a right when you are able to exercise it. When you are delusional and disconnected from reality, not so much. At the time I had been appointed as responsible for making her decisions. Decisions, I might add, in which she was included by my insistence, regardless her connection to reality.

As I said, ECT was a last resort. Next step, if ECT didn't work, or if I didn't allow it, was long term commitment, a decision for which I would have still been responsible. As the Psychotic features had been going for a month, there was little hope of it stopping on it's own.

Now, three years later, she has never expressed regret that I chose ECT for her.
hey if you had medical power than go for it, the two people I worked with had vegetative depression, no psychotic features.

They both specifically requested the treatment
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Old 16th June 2016, 03:24 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Not a good example. From http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/a...blood-thinners

"Not too long ago, if your doctor said you needed a blood thinner to prevent a stroke, you didn't have to think too hard about it. Warfarin (Coumadin) was the only way to go. But not anymore. With four other medications to pick from, you'll have to do a little homework to figure out what's best for you."
The problem is that this is not entirely true for the subject of this article, which is just talking about stroke prevention (the alternatives have different side effects, and are often contraindicated in precisely the demographic that would be interested in stroke prevention), and absolutely not true for the original applications, such as anticoagulants for surgery, which was the criticism I was responding to.
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Old 16th June 2016, 04:41 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Your guess at 90% is wrong. "Most" is a big exaggeration.
I knew 90% was hyperbolic, but it's still a majority of their sales.

You are also ignoring the very recent use of aspirin after Tylenol was removed from the market in USA.

Prior to that, easy 75%.

Either way, you have proven my point that the main use of aspirin is heart health, so well played.
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Old 16th June 2016, 04:43 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Others have already addressed this, and the fact that it does not, in fact, support your assertions.
Ah, but good old Reality Check has done his homework and proven the point for me.

Are you still claiming to have pharmaceutical "experience" now the case has been conclusively made, yet you weren't even aware of it?
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Old 16th June 2016, 04:58 PM   #117
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Just to emphasise the point and highlight the dishonesty being faced, these are actual quotes and their direct responses from a little up the page, so easily confirmed:

Originally Posted by Me
Most aspirin taken is taken for reasons of heart health
Originally Posted by blutoski
I doubt it. I'll bet it's still a popular 'aches and pains' remedy.
Originally Posted by Me
Most aspirin taken is taken for reasons of heart health
Originally Posted by Luchog
Another BS claim, for which I'm sure you have mountains of evidence you can provide.
The end.
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Old 16th June 2016, 08:44 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ah, but good old Reality Check has done his homework and proven the point for me.
Which is 2 lies, The Atheist:
  1. I did your homework that you should have done to give evidence for your assertion.
  2. The numbers are for sales revenue, not how customers use the aspirin.
    If we assume that all Aspirin™ Cardio was used for heart health and all Aspirin™ was used for pain/fever relief then your point is disproved. You guessed 90% as your "most". 53% is not close to 90%.
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Old 16th June 2016, 08:50 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Just to emphasise the point and highlight the dishonesty being faced, ....
I will do the same highlighting of dishonesty:
17 June 2016: If sales revenues = usage, the numbers show that only a few % more people take Aspirin™ Cardio rather than Aspirin™. This is evidence against The Atheist's "most' (90% or 75% or "main" or whatever goal posts he moves to next) assertion.

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Old 16th June 2016, 08:52 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Either way, you have proven my point that the main use of aspirin is heart health, so well played.
Whoops - missed this lie and moving of the goal posts (main = 50.00001%?):
17 June 2016: If sales revenues = usage, the numbers show that only a few % more people take Aspirin™ Cardio rather than Aspirin™. This is evidence against The Atheist's "most' (90% or 75% or "main" or whatever goal posts he moves to next) assertion.
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