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Old Today, 03:35 PM   #1921
Crunkus
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Is this your argument? Thank you for the abstract.

I disagree. Huxley's position is clear and conclusive: What evidence supports the belief in God? Huxley affirmed that any evidence has been never presented. A small generalization can be extended to other entities with a similar form (gods). Therefore you can say "I don't believe in gods" in the same way that you can say "I don't believe in flying dogs" or gnomes, fairies, etc. This unbelief is fully justified.
You quoted a portion of my post that started with...

"as a side note,"

So, no my argument isn't the side note. I did offer you a brief rephrasing, certainly briefer than many of your posts, but as I said, we don't seem to get past that point in the conversation. I'm going to assume it's just a failure to communicate.

But again, as a side note, Huxley's view on how to solve the question of god's existence has no bearing on how other's wrangle with the situation. Perhaps you are missing the effect of the word "perceived" on that sentence. Huxley no doubt perceives their belief structure as non-evidence based. That doesn't mean the person doing the believing does. The person can look at a coffee cup and call it evidence, and it is as long as their internal belief support structure contextualizes it appropriately. Evidence is just some sort of information in service to an argument. The varieties of arguments vary quite a bit of theists minds. Again, a side note.
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Old Today, 03:37 PM   #1922
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Nobody dennies that some Christians can be good guys. I know some communists that are fighters for the people's rights. NOt all Christians are fundamentalists nor all communistis are stalinists (See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcelino_Camacho). What is in question is if the ideology of theists can be the cause of intolerance and unjustified violence against the opponents.
That's the fun part about arguments by generalizations...those that use them render them immune to counter-example. Oh, I know there are exceptions....

It's just an ad hoc justification for prejudice. Really not that much more interesting. Works the same way as any similar objectionable bias...including those that they claim theism makes you more likely to engage in.
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Old Today, 03:39 PM   #1923
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
To say that some atheists are bad and some theists are not, or vice versa, is a sterile claim. You have to explain why.
I'm not the one claiming to have identified a causative factor. You are.

I'm simply pointing out that your logic doesn't hold.
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Old Today, 03:49 PM   #1924
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post

We as individuals and as a society should be able to look at negative factors without being accused of demonizing every person who happens to have that negative factor.
Do we get to actually establish they are negative factors first?

Or do we just make sweeping generalizations and assume our conclusions?

If you want to examine a negative factor, take a look at people's unending capacity to uncritically assign "negative factors" to characteristics they casually correlate to something unpleasant.

It's great to talk about reason and objectivity. The fact is, we all are apt to abandon it for a pet peeves and favourite biases. We'll scream to the hills before we acknowledge it...Again, I've seen nothing more than insinuations that theism or even religious belief has a causative relationship with such thinking. I mean, it's everywhere....it's no accident theists identify it in atheists so much...we exhibit the same behaviour in these forums constantly and are loathe to call each other on it if it's directed toward an unpopular idea.

Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
In some extreme cases the "X doesn't cause bad people, those people are just using X as an excuse to be bad and if we got rid of X those people would just pick a new excuse to be bad" mentality becomes almost Woo-ish, functionally becoming the idea that there is some arbitrary X percent of the population that is just inherently bad and will always be bad regardless of any other factors because to look into any of the factors that might make them bad is seen as offensive or something.
Straw man.

One doesn't have to use such argument to disagree that a pitiful over-simplified generalization is something more than it is.

You act like in order to consider any other factor more relevant one must believe in true evil inherent in a percentage of the population.

It's absolutely offensive when you make pejorative claims about people deeply held beliefs and you don't even bother to bring the rationality and objectivity you claim they SHOULD be using more often to the table. Just because you drape it in multiple factors when you're still assuming your conclusion doesn't make it better. It's a compensation. Deep down, you know your argument is weak and it's just something you feel but can't demonstrate. Remind you of the kinds of things other people say?
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Old Today, 03:54 PM   #1925
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
When these justifications are ideological, then we have the case of the accusations made against atheism in the thread. This is why one must show atheism to actually contain justifications for action; i.e., to be an ideology.
Of course. Do you acknowledge the same burdens on someone making similar claims about "theism"?

Or is there a "theistic" holy book associated with all beliefs in god?

How do these arguments NOT work in reverse?

You can take up issues with a multitude of beliefs and habits of mind that happen to be theistic, and even notice when they happen to actually only be theistic by coincidence and appear independent of one's predilection to god worship.
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Old Today, 04:08 PM   #1926
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Originally Posted by David Mo
Summarizing:

I believe that the effects of the atheism are mainly that it makes possible to get rid of some effects of theism. For example:
-To submit all beliefs to reason, without letting myself be carried away by irrationality.
How does not believing in a god do this? What compels you to "submit all beliefs to reason without letting yourself get carried away by irrationality" is not caused by your atheism. As people keep pointing out atheism is failing to believe in a theistic model, period. Does that stop being true when we're not using it in the context of defending against an argument? If anything, it's the other way around. Your atheism is probably a result of this compulsion.

Again, I feel that David Mo is arguing more in favour of a atheist ideology than anyone if you're paying attention. He attributes a lot of downstream beliefs that he says are part and parcel of atheism.

Originally Posted by David Mo
-To invite myself to think for myself and do not let anyone make me believe anything based on his authority. It frees me from sacred books and prophets.
Again, atheism doesn't do this. You decide to avoid as much authority driven thinking as you can. Why would you not believing in something that isn't there have this kind of effect on you? Unless you are speaking about an ideology that you association with atheism.

Originally Posted by David Mo
- It frees me from the anti-humanism that makes values dependent on an extrahuman reality. It makes me understand that human being is the measure of all things and that it is not a mean for an end that does not exist.
Theists values AREN'T dependent on an extrahuman reality, you're an atheist, remember? You should know better. Your atheism doesn't free you from what theists themselves aren't tied to...even if they believe they are.

Your understanding of "the measure of all things" is your internal mental modeling, not something inherent in atheism. Also, you are REALLY over-simplifying theistic beliefs in this portion.

Originally Posted by David Mo
- It forces me to consider myself responsible for my actions without the excuse of the due obedience to a Higher Being.
Again, ridiculous amount of pejorative over-simplifying of theistic beliefs about how they see themselves accountable for their actions. But mostly...how does not believing in something that isn't there making you any more or less responsible for anything? I have no doubt you feel that way...but that's owing to your own internal moralizing and those are not inherent or caused by your lack of belief in any given theistic model. If they are, you are unduly influenced by something that isn't a thing.
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Old Today, 05:04 PM   #1927
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Originally Posted by Crunkus View Post
The point wasn't that you hate theists.

The point was that your argument about theism was just as flawed as TBD's about atheism.

The point (which is illusive) was made by Egg not yourself.

Perhaps you have a better insight into the mind of Egg than I have.
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Old Today, 05:14 PM   #1928
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I see what you mean. My bad.

Although may I ask sincerely what motivates you to repeatedly reference a misspelling quite a number of pages ago?

Is there something I can help you with in that regard? Or is the point that I'm a moron, because only morons would type illusive instead of elusive? Help me out with that.

Do you feel I've treated you with disrespect?

Last edited by Crunkus; Today at 05:23 PM.
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Old Today, 05:34 PM   #1929
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Originally Posted by Crunkus View Post
I see what you mean. My bad.

Although may I ask sincerely what motivates you to repeatedly reference a misspelling quite a number of pages ago?

Is there something I can help you with in that regard? Or is the point that I'm a moron, because only morons would type illusive instead of elusive? Help me out with that.

Do you feel I've treated you with disrespect?

And you ask me if you have treated me with disrespect? Because I used the wrong spelling I am a moron?
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Old Today, 05:55 PM   #1930
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I am sure many here are familiar with it however the original quote was that of Steven Weinberg the Nobel laureate:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
did he win a nobel prize in theology, or was that just an appeal to false authority??
It certainly wasn't a Nobel prize for psychology: Milgram demonstrated in the 1960s that for good people to do evil things, it merely takes a man in a white coat saying "please continue".
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Old Today, 05:55 PM   #1931
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
And you ask me if you have treated me with disrespect? Because I used the wrong spelling I am a moron?
This is ridiculous.

/ignore
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Old Today, 05:58 PM   #1932
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post


Well I was certainly not aware of the lack of awareness caused by atheism.
heh, nice.
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Old Today, 06:16 PM   #1933
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Originally Posted by Crunkus View Post
This is ridiculous.

/ignore

Can't disagree with that.
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Old Today, 06:35 PM   #1934
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The point (which is illusive) was made by Egg not yourself.

Perhaps you have a better insight into the mind of Egg than I have.
I'll make it plainer then. Your claim that the effects of theism are terrorism, inquisitions, crusades, etc. is the kind of thinking that leads to fear and distrust. It's not so different from Trump and the Alt-Right stoking fear of Syrian refugees based on one or two incidents. The main difference is that theists are a majority group (although particular groups of theists often are not).

It is also logically flawed, but since you ignore the points being made against it and just repeat the argument, I'll try an appeal to emotion. For someone who is so against persecution, it's strange that you would promote such generalized thinking. Even if you personally can "hate the sin, not the sinner", for many that is not a clear distinction.
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Old Today, 06:51 PM   #1935
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Originally Posted by Egg View Post
I'll make it plainer then. Your claim that the effects of theism are terrorism, inquisitions, crusades, etc. is the kind of thinking that leads to fear and distrust. It's not so different from Trump and the Alt-Right stoking fear of Syrian refugees based on one or two incidents. The main difference is that theists are a majority group (although particular groups of theists often are not).

It is also logically flawed, but since you ignore the points being made against it and just repeat the argument, I'll try an appeal to emotion. For someone who is so against persecution, it's strange that you would promote such generalized thinking. Even if you personally can "hate the sin, not the sinner", for many that is not a clear distinction.
That is a very nice way to put it.

I am a bit surprised that this thread has not been a massive wake up call to the atheists. They are so used to sweeping with a broad brush that they can't recognize when someone uses their same tecniques against them.
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Old Today, 09:02 PM   #1936
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
did he win a nobel prize in theology, or was that just an appeal to false authority??
Theology is an appeal to false authority.
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