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Tags 2020 elections , Elizabeth Warren , Massachusetts politics , presidential candidates , racial categorization , racial isssues

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Old 13th February 2019, 02:38 PM   #3201
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought she said she did it for networking purposes.
I think you are confusing stories. Anonymous data is difficult to use for networking purposes. But I'd be happy to be corrected on that.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:47 PM   #3202
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You asked the question 'what does that mean?' in response to someone answering 'what did she gain?' with 'a subjective sense of personal identity'. The proposal, which I agree with, is that Warren simply felt a little special to have a (precarious) claim to exotic ancestry. A thoroughly human peculiarity shared by millions.
Precisely, yes.
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:25 PM   #3203
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I thought she said she did it for networking purposes.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think you are confusing stories. Anonymous data is difficult to use for networking purposes. But I'd be happy to be corrected on that.
Yeah, confusing stories and confusing speakers. "networking purposes" was my wording. And it was the Harvard Directory, not the Texas Bar card story. She was already past the point of being hired and/or taking advantage of affirmative action when she was listed in the Harvard directory. And the directory has no real official use as far as I know. It's just a directory.
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:25 PM   #3204
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What does that mean, exactly? And how does filling out a line you've been told will not be linked to you give you this personal identity?
Why do teenage girls fill their diaries with pages of "Mrs. John Doe"?
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Old 13th February 2019, 07:26 PM   #3205
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You thought Warren filled in a line that she was told was anonymous and wouldn't be linked to her for networking purposes, eh?



Right.
Meh. It's clear something has gotten garbled somewhere along the way. Probably my fault.
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Old 14th February 2019, 05:13 AM   #3206
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why do teenage girls fill their diaries with pages of "Mrs. John Doe"?
It seems clear that some who I thought were adults here are much closer to a 'teenage girl writing in diary' caricature, but that still has no bearing on whether or not an adult lawyer would act the same. Your evidence that anonymous statistics submitted to an authority are treated like a teenage girl diary kept under a bed would be what, again?
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:22 AM   #3207
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Warren offended some Native Americans and incurred the wrath of the Cherokee Nation earlier, but she seems to have made amends with the larger Native American community:

Elizabeth Warren receives standing ovation at surprise visit to Native American conference: report

Quote:
Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) received a standing ovation when she made a surprise appearance Tuesday at a Native American conference.

Warren spoke at the National Indian Women's "Supporting Each Other" lunch, where she introduced Cheryl Andrews-Maltais, the chairwoman of the Wampanoag Tribe of Gay Head Aquinnah in Massachusetts, HuffPost first reported. The luncheon took place during an annual meeting of the National Congress of American Indians.

In her speech, Warren praised Native American women, specifically Reps. Deb Haaland (D-N.M.) and Sharice Davids (D-Kan.) the first two Native women elected to Congress. The progressive lawmaker, who reportedly received a standing ovation from tribal leaders and other Native attendees as she approached the stage, detailed several legislative priorities related to the Native American community.
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:26 AM   #3208
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why do teenage girls fill their diaries with pages of "Mrs. John Doe"?
ProTip: If one finds that their teenage daughter desires to marry an unidentified corpse in the city morgue they should not panic. It is likely just a phase. But, they should stop looking in her diary, that's creepy.
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Old 14th February 2019, 10:31 AM   #3209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Meh. It's clear something has gotten garbled somewhere along the way. Probably my fault.
Not your fault, not at all.

The card was presented as something significant and you were intended to think it was significant. That was the whole point of presenting it. That this was a lie or misrepresentation was known and indeed inherent in the presentation. That you have more important stuff to deal with than the minute details of some politician on the other side of the country is to be expected. You are the intended target of a lie that has been tailored to fit your preconceived notions.

It is a credit to you that you did not double down or just ignore the issue.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:08 AM   #3210
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Which of these constitutes identifying yourself to someone:
1. Saying your name to them.
2. Writing your name down in a secret location you expect they will never see.
Your question is fundamentally broken/loaded. You're moving the goalposts, by clear implication and none too subtly:

First, "self identification" is not the same thing as "identifying yourself to someone".

Second, a form that's being submitted to an organization is not a "secret location". Minimally, her self-identification was conveyed to one or more people at the organization, and it was apparently factored into their statistics. If the organization seeks diversity, I can well imagine that a person who checks off two under-represented demographics is a welcome addition.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:12 AM   #3211
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Tracing back through the conversation it appears to be you that changed to "self-identification". Who cares what she self identifies as? In all cases I'm aware of she identified as some form of white or non-minority when affirmative action might have applied.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:25 AM   #3212
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Tracing back through the conversation it appears to be you that changed to "self-identification". Who cares what she self identifies as? In all cases I'm aware of she identified as some form of white or non-minority when affirmative action might have applied.
In which particular case would you be willing to bet an admissions or hiring committee took her ancestry/ethnicity into account?
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:36 AM   #3213
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In which particular case would you be willing to bet an admissions or hiring committee took her ancestry/ethnicity into account?
How about Harvard, when the hiring committee explicitly defended hiring her as a white person over other minority candidates?

Last edited by wareyin; 15th February 2019 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:38 AM   #3214
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
How about Harvard, when the hiring committee explicitly defended hiring her as a white person over other minority candidates?
Citation needed.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:45 AM   #3215
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Citation needed.
See my edit. If that often cited* evidence is overwhelming or confusing to anyone, simply search the page for "defense".



*I'm fairly certain that's already been linked to at least 3 times in this thread, but I do understand that it can be difficult to remember that which disproves a cherished notion.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:51 AM   #3216
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Tracing back through the conversation it appears to be you that changed to "self-identification". Who cares what she self identifies as? In all cases I'm aware of she identified as some form of white or non-minority when affirmative action might have applied.
Pay better attention please. I corrected an unambiguously false claim. You replied to that with broken, counter-factual goalpost movement.

As to your question, I care about people telling lies; I think less of liars. I'm not alone here, especially in a community of skeptics. While it's uncomfortable when the liar is a person who is on "my side", oh well, reality trumps blind partisanship.
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Old 15th February 2019, 08:56 AM   #3217
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Having read through the article, I have failed to find the part where the committee admits to taking her ancestry into account as a factor in her favor (or against her, for that matter).

What did I miss?
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Last edited by d4m10n; 15th February 2019 at 08:59 AM. Reason: Parenthetical
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:00 AM   #3218
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Can we all agree that there are no documented examples of Warren using her trace Native American ancestry or family lore to get ahead in life?
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:08 AM   #3219
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Having read through the article, I have failed to find the part where the committee admits to taking her ancestry into account as a factor in her favor (or against her, for that matter).

What did I miss?
You previously asked for evidence of a hiring committee taking her ethnicity into account. I linked you to evidence that the Harvard hiring committee defended hiring her over minorities, which obviously entails taking her ethnicity into account. Recall, for every single instance of Warren being hired, she claimed white ethnicity.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Can we all agree that there are no documented examples of Warren using her trace Native American ancestry or family lore to get ahead in life?
Yes.
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:13 AM   #3220
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You previously asked for evidence of a hiring committee taking her ethnicity into account. I linked you to evidence that the Harvard hiring committee defended hiring her over minorities, which obviously entails taking her ethnicity into account.
Defending a decision after it is made is not the same thing as making the decision itself; my question was whether they discussed ethnicity or ancestry during the hiring process itself.
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:55 AM   #3221
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In which particular case would you be willing to bet an admissions or hiring committee took her ancestry/ethnicity into account?

None. Not sure I'm getting your question. Why would they take her ethnicity in to account? You're suggesting they might discriminate against or in favor of whites? Even so, I don't see how that would be Warren's fault. Perhaps you could explain your question.
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:57 AM   #3222
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Pay better attention please. I corrected an unambiguously false claim. You replied to that with broken, counter-factual goalpost movement.
I have no idea what this means. Perhaps you could rephrase to include some actual meaning?
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:59 AM   #3223
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
None. Not sure I'm getting your question. Why would they take her ethnicity in to account? You're suggesting they might discriminate against or in favor of whites?
It gets complicated when it's a white person who thinks they're part Native American is trying to pass as white to get hired for a job. Which they gave her because she's a woman, anyway... Or is she? I don't recall anyone asking Warren if she identifies as female, have we all been just assuming that?
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Old 15th February 2019, 09:59 AM   #3224
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Can we all agree that there are no documented examples of Warren using her trace Native American ancestry or family lore to get ahead in life?

I agree with that. Does this address the earlier question you asked of me too? Except for one post where I mistakenly left out the word "not" that has been my point all along. She says she's white/Caucasian/non-minority on official applications where affirmative action might come in to play. She only mentions NA in other situations where it's apparently just amusing or interesting to her.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:04 AM   #3225
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:08 AM   #3226
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I agree with that. Does this address the earlier question you asked of me too?
Yes, thanks. I think we're operating from the same basic set of facts, which is a nice change of pace for a discussion forum.
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:11 PM   #3227
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I have no idea what this means. Perhaps you could rephrase to include some actual meaning?
In case your ignorance isn't the act it appears to be, here you go...

In post 3153 I corrected a claim that was unambiguously false, concerning a simple factual matter.

Never mind the gibberish you wrote in post 3154.

In post 3163 you asked a question based on misleading premises. As if the form was "secret", and as if the size of the audience changes the fact of the false self-identification, and as if somehow these BS factors cause a crystal clear act of self-identification to not be a real self-identification.

In post 3210 I pointed out that the question you posed in post 3163 is bogus.

This exchange serves to remind me that fact-free bubbles and blind partisanship aren't the exclusive domains of the right. Not that I needed it.

Hope that helps.
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:18 PM   #3228
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In post 3153 I corrected a claim that was unambiguously false, concerning a simple factual matter.
No you didn't and no it is not unambiguously false. And 3154 is not gibberish (it wasn't even gibberish before I added the missing word "not")
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Old 15th February 2019, 05:53 PM   #3229
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Ah, so exactly what I indicated she needed to do upthread.
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Old 16th February 2019, 06:10 AM   #3230
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No you didn't and no it is not unambiguously false. And 3154 is not gibberish
OK, full stop. Let's back up to our little genesis moment.
Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I am still puzzled by why checking the box for a portion of her ancestry counts as Identifying As That.
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Regrettably, applause notwithstanding, this is false. At least as pertaining to the most recent revelation where she wrote out "American Indian" as her "Race".
In the latest revelation that revived this thread, we learned that Warren didn't merely check boxes. She wrote out "American Indian" as her "Race". Do you actually dispute this unambiguous fact? (While it appears that SGM wasn't well informed about the latest revelation, so what? That's no crime. They had the good sense not to push back. That would be delusional.)

Then comes your surreal foray through the looking glass:

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
In a box labeled specifically that it would not be used to identify her.
Multi-dimensional, fact-free nonsense. It identified her to the organization.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Which of these constitutes identifying yourself to someone:
1. Saying your name to them.
2. Writing your name down in a secret location you expect they will never see.
A question based on a premise consisting of 200 proof fact-free nonsense. "Secret location"? What a joke.

Sharpen your pencil.
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Old 16th February 2019, 07:34 AM   #3231
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So your point was that check she wrote it out rather than checked a box in that secret location? Yes, FFS. That irrelevant point is correct. And we don't really know that it even identified her to the organization. The way the box is labeled the information the information could have stopped at some data entry clerk.

I don't see how either of these points is relevant to the point SGM was making and it certainly isn't relevant to my point.

I'm afraid with this new information about what you think is at issue I'm entirely as a loss as to what possible point you could be trying to make. In any event, my point still stands and the point that I took away from Silly Green Monkey's post is still completely valid (don't know if SGM agrees).

Warren wrote her ethnicity in to a box that she expected no one (that could give her benefit*) to see.

*Added for those having trouble seeing the point.
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