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14th October 2017, 07:42 AM | #401 |
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14th October 2017, 10:23 AM | #402 |
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It seems to me the whole case for this supposed civilization rests upon the belief that the stones were shaped by some 'unknown method' therefore it had to be some kind of high tech method so there was an advanced civilization.
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14th October 2017, 02:04 PM | #403 |
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14th October 2017, 06:37 PM | #404 |
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14th October 2017, 06:50 PM | #405 |
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Not quite. The size of the structures, indicate large settlements, and civilization. The ruins themselves indicate and advanced ability to move and shape stone.
That these structures date to 12,500, and thereafter we became hunter gatherers all point to a lost civilization. |
14th October 2017, 06:52 PM | #406 |
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14th October 2017, 06:53 PM | #407 |
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14th October 2017, 06:54 PM | #408 |
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14th October 2017, 11:06 PM | #409 |
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Nope, there were others (eg British archaeologist Frank Calvert) who thought there might be an historical basis for some of Homer's tales. But few were convinced until convincing evidence was found, which is just as it should be. No convincing evidence has ever been found for the historicity of Atlantis, despite considerable effort. The "evidence" you are offering is, I repeat, embarrassing in its inadequacy.
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14th October 2017, 11:11 PM | #410 |
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15th October 2017, 12:29 AM | #411 |
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But not lost to archaeologists. The tools have been found
Some of the stones are in an unfinished state, showing some of the techniques used to shape them. They were initially pounded by stone hammers, which can still be found in numbers on local andesite quarries, creating depressions, and then slowly ground and polished with flat stones and sandHow do you know? Where is your evidence for a written language? If you have found examples of writing in ancient Peru, you will become famous throughout the world, I hope you realise. ETA I assume you also reject this dating, which is nowhere near the end of the Ice Age. Since the radiocarbon date came from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill underlying the andesite and sandstone stonework, the stonework must have been constructed sometime after 536–600 AD.That's about the same age as Hagia Sofia in Constantinople, or a little later. |
15th October 2017, 07:08 AM | #412 |
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Absolutely false. Schliemann was not in the least unusual in thinking Troy was a real place. The bottom line is that Troy had been thought to be a real place for thousands of years and it was also thought that the Trojan war really happened. However in the late 18th and early 19th centuries there emerged a group of skeptics who pointed out that the evidence for Homer's Troy was dubious and asked for better evidence. This was not a majority position.
This was dressed by later mythmakers has a story about a lone genius proving that the hidebound establishment was wrong. Oh and possible site for Troy that Schliemann excavated had been known for quite sometime. It had been known that the mound Hissarlik was the location of the Greco-Roman town of Ilium/ Troy and that this is where the Greeks and Romans thought was the site of Homer's Troy / Ilium. This was known for quite sometime among European Classicalists long before Schliemann. Schliemann was also to a large extent his own mythmaker. He sometimes, quite deliberately created false romantic stories about his own achievements. His version of the finding of Priam's Treasure is one example of that. It is almost certainly false. He also interpreted his finds to fit his mytho-romantic bent. Thus he thought the wrong layer of Hissarlik was Homer's Troy. When he excavated the shaft tombs at Mycenae, he thought he was excavating the tombs of Agamemnon et al. Further when Schliemann, before Hissarlik, excavated on the island of ithaka he thought he had found remains associated with Odyessus! Schliemann created a romantic image of himself and then the media, loving a good story of the underdog proving the establishment wrong, ran with it. It is to put it politely an exaggeration. |
15th October 2017, 07:20 AM | #413 |
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I suggest that you look up the work done on the Quipu used has recording devices by the Inca and apparently by earlier Andean people.
This recording device was more than a simple aide-memoire, but a fairly sophisticated device to encode information. It may not have been a full blown writing system but it was a information storage device, that structured so that different rreaders of the Quipus could "read" the same information. There is the outside chance that Quipus could have been a full blown writing system. There is evidence that Quipus are fairly ncient in the Andean region. Probably the worlds formost expert on the Quipus is Gary Urton. To start I suggest you take a look at his Signs of the Inka Khipu: Binary Coding in the Andean Knotted-String Records Austin, TX: University of Texas Press, 2003. |
15th October 2017, 09:11 AM | #414 |
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15th October 2017, 01:56 PM | #415 |
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Those were of the later works, not the most ancient ones.
Stone masons were asked tocarte hundreds of interlocking wall pieces each with 50+ sides and perfect right angles. To mine eyes, the blocks look molded or cast...but there is no evidence to look at other than the ruins. One stone of interest features an 1/4 inch square line cut into the stone with holes drilled equal distance apart. That line was NO chiseled out. GT was dated to 12,500... |
15th October 2017, 02:00 PM | #416 |
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15th October 2017, 02:25 PM | #417 |
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15th October 2017, 02:51 PM | #418 |
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15th October 2017, 03:15 PM | #419 |
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I suggest you read Urton's book. Binary coding of knotted strings is actually fairly sophisticated. And has I mentioned in my previous posting it may constitute a full blown writing system. My point is that the Inca and likely their predecessors had at the very least a sophisticated system via the Quipus for the storage and recording of information even if it turns out it didn't record a language.
This method of recording etc., information would it seems have amply suited for their needs of record keeping and has such recording a language was likely not necessary for them, the Inca etc., to organize etc., their feats of civil engineering such has the Inca Road system. |
15th October 2017, 03:50 PM | #420 |
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That's right.
1) Archaeological evidence from Göbekli Tepe is clear that beer from only wild grains existed indicating there was no pre-existing large scale agriculture (selective breeding) 2) There is no legacy DNA evidence in the area of pre-9000 year old selective breeding confirming no pre-existing agriculture. 3) The motifs and structures found at Göbekli Tepe also exist at many other later archaeological sites indicating the population did not die out or were wiped out by a magical flood. |
15th October 2017, 04:04 PM | #421 |
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Nope. In archaeology you look at the nearby ruins to see if the technology spread with the population, for example Karahan Tepe.
It's the same reason archaeologists study Ionic and Doric Columns spreading through the Aegean. . |
15th October 2017, 04:14 PM | #422 |
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Thank you for the reference to the book. Meanwhile I'm discussing the issue with you. The Quipus were highly evolved string tallies; and they contained significant information. But I'm saying that ancient Peru had no written language, even if there was a knotted string mathematical notation. Do you disagree? Are the quipus documents specifically composed in Quechua or Aymara, or some other mode of speech? You appear on the contrary to be saying that written language was not necessary for construction of these architectural wonders.
I agree, and in addition I'm saying that advanced technology wasn't necessary either, and its presence can't be inferred from the archeological record unless artefacts unambiguously produced by it turn up in excavation ... and they haven't. |
15th October 2017, 04:54 PM | #423 |
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I guess I'm not making myself clear. I was responding to KOA comment that since the natives of Peru didn't have a written language they could not build Puma Punka etc. My point was that they had a sophisticated system of recording information in the Quipus and that system would more or less satisfy the requirement for information storage to manage building various monuments and massive public works.
Gary Urton has claimed that he has deciphered the names of places in the Quipus. His main focus of work for the last decade or so has been the so-called historical Quipus. Has I said there is the outside chance that the Quipus may in fact turnout to be a complete writing system. I personally suspect that the Quipus are not a complete writing system but instead a system of encoding information that a trained Quipus reader could read. It may have incorporated some elements of a phonetic system of writing but it would not be a complete writing system. Sadly the whole debate regarding the Quipus is marred by the fact that there are not that many Quipus and further that the historical Quipus are very few indeed. The great majority of surviving Quipus are it appears census records of various kinds. There are also astronomical Quipus. Allied to this is that there are Quipus now located in Europe that are almost certainly forgeries. Most experts on the Quipus disregard those. |
16th October 2017, 04:01 PM | #424 |
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16th October 2017, 04:02 PM | #425 |
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16th October 2017, 04:05 PM | #426 |
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*Where did the water from the scablands flood go?
*How much did it raise sea levels? |
16th October 2017, 04:41 PM | #427 |
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Actually he didn't find it another guy did but he gets the credit because he knew how to play the media. Whether the city he found was Troy (he picked the wrong one from the different levels) is still not fully confirmed - but highly likely.
The guy who found the site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Calvert Oh and their were other people who thought Troy was real - it is incorrect to say he 'was alone'. |
16th October 2017, 04:44 PM | #428 |
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The Romans all thought it was real and use to take tours their and they recolonized the site. So they certainly thought it was real. Lots of people thought it was real. The 'mainstream' at that time held that the world was created by God 6000 years ago.......it was better to alt back then
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16th October 2017, 05:39 PM | #429 |
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Klaus Schmidt found stone hammers and blades at Gobekli Tepe.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...mple-83613665/ |
16th October 2017, 06:31 PM | #430 |
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These cuts were NOT carved with chisels...
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16th October 2017, 06:33 PM | #431 |
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...
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16th October 2017, 06:46 PM | #432 |
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Not Puma Punku...but also NOT carved with stone chisels...
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16th October 2017, 07:01 PM | #433 |
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It was a reasonable opinion held by respected scholars. This is from Voltaire's Philosophical Dictionary 1771, entry on "history"
The Greeks knew very well how to distinguish between history and fable, between real facts and the tales of Herodotus:Voltaire therefore thought that Troy was real, but that in the Iliad mythical elements had been added to the authentic material. Voltaire was not a "lone nut", but an influential commentator. |
16th October 2017, 07:10 PM | #434 |
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16th October 2017, 07:28 PM | #435 |
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What are you on about now? Troy really existed, and many scholars believed it existed, contrary to your "Schliemann was regarded as a nutcase" proposition. So now we've to change the subject. But Troy was found. If Atlantis is ever found I will happily "apply the same reasoning" to it. Until then, why should I? The circumstances are not the same.
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16th October 2017, 08:02 PM | #436 |
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16th October 2017, 08:10 PM | #437 |
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard
You have yet another problem. You claim that all the evidence was washed away in a magical flood, yet Klaus Schimdt, the Gobekli Tepe archaeologist found the stone tools used construct it. It gets worse for you. The skull incisions found at Gobekli Tepe are also only from stone tools. More recently archaeologists found the residue of the grains that were used there and they were all wild grains. That destroys your fantasy about pre-12,500 agriculture. It would seem your magical flood only removed evidence relating to your fantasy claims but left all the normal evidence there. |
16th October 2017, 08:26 PM | #438 |
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16th October 2017, 08:44 PM | #439 |
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I have a really simple question for King of America.
If there was a massive flood at Gobekli Tepe that washed away everything, then why didn't it wash away the residue beer made from wild grains? "In the December issue of the journal Antiquity, archaeologists describe evidence of nearly 11,000-year-old beer brewing troughs at a cultic feasting site in Turkey called Göbekli Tepe." https://www.livescience.com/25855-st...iscovered.html |
16th October 2017, 09:28 PM | #440 |
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The fact that there are true stories about real cities does not mean that every story about a city is a true story about a real city.
The fact that Troy was a real place does not make it any more likely that Atlantis or Anch Morpock are real places. There are ways to determine which stories are most likely to be historical and which fictional. The story of Atlantis ticks none of the boxes for the former and all of the boxes for the latter. |
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