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Tags Graham Hancock , joe rogan , michael shermer , zahi hawass

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Old 21st October 2017, 10:50 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Good news. I found the original 3 minute opening scene of the movie Atlantis : The Lost Continent (1961): "a series of Mysteries". It is from this three minute scene that King of America is getting his "evidence."

This is the "evidence" that Atlantis was real, due to things like pyramids and bananas appearing on both continents. It is very easy to spot all the holes.

This clip is impressive because it is from 1961 and almost a decade before Von Daniken used to same rubbish arguments in his film "Chariot of the Gods".

Entertainingly, the voice over artist is Paul Frees who later played Boris Badenov in the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show.

Turner Network / Classic Trailers / Opener "Atlantis : The Lost Continent"
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/1...Mysteries.html
Oooh a classically 'good' bad movie
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:14 AM   #562
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KOTA, have you ever looked into the Beaker people/culture?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 04:08 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Good news. I found the original 3 minute opening scene of the movie Atlantis : The Lost Continent (1961): "a series of Mysteries". It is from this three minute scene that King of America is getting his "evidence."

This is the "evidence" that Atlantis was real, due to things like pyramids and bananas appearing on both continents. It is very easy to spot all the holes.

This clip is impressive because it is from 1961 and almost a decade before Von Daniken used to same rubbish arguments in his film "Chariot of the Gods".

Entertainingly, the voice over artist is Paul Frees who later played Boris Badenov in the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show.

Turner Network / Classic Trailers / Opener "Atlantis : The Lost Continent"
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/1...Mysteries.html
Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

The holes?

I think the hole is in one's reasoning that would allow a person to dismiss or ignore such connections.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 04:34 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Evidenced - could you please show where your imaginary civilization meets your own criteria?

to wit:


So again where is this for your civilization?

I love it when you self debunk yourself....hilarious.
The building technique that I 'think' was employed would not have produced debris. I believe the blocks (some) were molded not carved. This would also have required fewer laborers. One machine that molds stone would be easier to vanish than thousands of stone or bronze hammers. Where's the debris field, worker's complex, or written language required for the stoneworks' construction?

I'm saying it didn't happen that way, or there would be evidence because there would ABSOLUTELY BE remains still around if it was that young. It is older, much much older, and the techniques used were NOT hammers and abrasives, but a technique 'lost' to time.

We do NOT 'know' how these stones were fashioned.

Claiming they were carved with bronze or stone hammers is pure fiction with zero evidence, period. *ETA: Okay, not pure fiction. It is a weak theory with little validity.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd October 2017 at 04:42 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 04:40 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
KOTA, have you ever looked into the Beaker people/culture?
Did they invent the science-beaker?

How old IS pottery?

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2009/...oldest-pottery
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:01 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
No you were wrong, you think, like many fringe believers, that somehow Hawass is in charge....he ain't, come visit the rest of us in reality world.
Taken from: http://www.aeraweb.org/wp-content/up...am5_2_2002.pdf

"We worked in this area ahead of a team constructing a high security wall that will enclose the Giza Plateau, running on the eastern side of the site along the modem road. This wall is part of the site management program of Dr. Zahi Hawass..."

Yep, that sounds very hands-off.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd October 2017 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:34 AM   #567
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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 06:53 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional?
*gentle nudge* One cannot prove a negative.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:15 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

The holes?

I think the hole is in one's reasoning that would allow a person to dismiss or ignore such connections.
Gold and silver coinage in ancient America? News to me. Examples, please.

Elephants - you mean you think these were used as domesticated animals both in the Old World and the New? If you mean palaentological or fossil evidence dating from before humans were in the Americas, what about horses?

Where are the common number notations you refer to? The Mayas had vigesimal place value notation; the Egyptians had no place value. The Babylonians had it.

The Gregorian calendar was introduced in 1582, not at the end of the Ice Age. It was carried into America by the Spaniards who by that time were already there.

[ETA: to be precise on this point, wiki tells us that
On 29 September 1582, Philip II of Spain decreed the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar. This affected much of Roman Catholic Europe, as Philip was at the time ruler over Spain and Portugal as well as much of Italy. ... The Spanish and Portuguese colonies followed somewhat later de facto because of delay in communication.
/ETA]

It was not adopted by Britain until 1752, and by Russia until 1918. It is not an ancient invention found in all continents. What is this rubbish you're handing us now?

Last edited by Craig B; 22nd October 2017 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:30 AM   #570
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Do hunter gatherers have kilns?

How many people does it take to support one kiln, in the pre-idusterial world?

We are talking about fires that burn over 1000 degrees for several hours, some pottery showing evidence of reaching over 1400 degrees. Does this require, or rather is this evidence of an 'advanced civilization?'
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:33 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Bananas
BananaWPs were introduced to the Americas by Portuguese sailors who brought the fruits from West Africa in the 16th century.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:38 AM   #572
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I love it when people use the fact of there being ancient pyramids in more than one place as being evidence of something strange going on, rather than as evidence that putting stones in a pile is the most efficient method of stacking them and the most likely to survive through the years.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:38 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Do hunter gatherers have kilns?

How many people does it take to support one kiln, in the pre-idusterial world?

We are talking about fires that burn over 1000 degrees for several hours, some pottery showing evidence of reaching over 1400 degrees. Does this require, or rather is this evidence of an 'advanced civilization?'
No. A fire in a kiln for several hours proves the existence of kilns and control of fire - and that the civilisation possessing them lasted for longer than several hours.

Were these by any chance electric kilns? No? Too bad. Not advanced technology then. Fire is pretty basic technology. Cave dwellers had it.

Last edited by Craig B; 22nd October 2017 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 07:46 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I love it when people use the fact of there being ancient pyramids in more than one place as being evidence of something strange going on, rather than as evidence that putting stones in a pile is the most efficient method of stacking them and the most likely to survive through the years.
Funny that anyone can focus on one potentially dismissible piece of evidence, while ignore that several have similar base sizes, AND the scores of other connections...pfft
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:10 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Funny that anyone can focus on one potentially dismissible piece of evidence, while ignore that several have similar base sizes, AND the scores of other connections...pfft
If that is your current subject of thought, you will wish urgently to consider my points about calendars and bananas. You will also wish to give details of these similar base sizes, and the "scores of other connections" you observe in ancient pyramids.

Pyramids are about the only shape of high buildings that can be made if only primitive techniques are available. If you pile up a heap of sand without any design, it will, quite naturally, assume a roughly pyramidal shape. That's why these early buildings, if high ones, were constructed in that pyramidal form.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:24 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Do hunter gatherers have kilns?
No. Nor pyramids either. Neither existed at the end of the Ice Age.
Quote:
How many people does it take to support one kiln, in the pre-idusterial world?
Typically, a single family household. A study of early colonial N America notes
... domestic pottery manufacture in the Northeast from its beginning as a small, family-based enterprise in the 1620s

Last edited by Craig B; 22nd October 2017 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:25 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
The building technique that I 'think' was employed would not have produced debris. I believe the blocks (some) were molded not carved.

We do NOT 'know' how these stones were fashioned.
Yes we have theories on how it was done. Of course the Spanish observed the Incan workers building stuff and the Incan workers were from Tiwanaku.

The problem with the 'molded' idea is that image of an incomplete block from PP that I have showed you. It shows a block with parts completed, started and in the rough.

Please explain how your theory covers that?



The core stones of the pyramid are not molded nor are any known structure - unless they made different molds for each stone.........

Additionally we have their quarries - why quarry rock, break it up (a hard task) only to reform it? Madness. 'The blanks' in the walls of quarries show quite clearly they removed blocks and weren't 'rubbling' it which is what you would need for 'concrete' or molding.

Additionally you avoided my full question: it will be repeated until answered.

You said that a civilization must have the following to carve stone (sic)

Quote:
large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language'
Please show that your imaginary had any of these?

Last edited by Hans; 22nd October 2017 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:28 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional?
No, unproven and highly unlikely. Just like we cannot prove that somewhere someplace at sometime unicorns may have existed. Hard to prove a negative.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:31 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Taken from: http://www.aeraweb.org/wp-content/up...am5_2_2002.pdf

"We worked in this area ahead of a team constructing a high security wall that will enclose the Giza Plateau, running on the eastern side of the site along the modem road. This wall is part of the site management program of Dr. Zahi Hawass..."

Yep, that sounds very hands-off.
D'uh - that dates from 2002 dude when he was still on the job. He resigned on July 17, 2011

So you were still wrong. Are you one of strange people who can never admit when they make a mistake?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:32 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Did they invent the science-beaker?

How old IS pottery?

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2009/...oldest-pottery
Quite old and we find it in a number of places - but there is no pottery or anything associated with your imaginary civililization
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:37 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

......one's reasoning that would allow a person to dismiss or ignore such connections.

Because a movie isn't evidence and the folks who made it were using REALLY out of date fringe information. Most of what they said was known to be wrong at that time. I believe they took that info from Donnelly's 1882 book called, Atlantis: The Antediluvian World
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Old 22nd October 2017, 08:56 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yes we have theories on how it was done. Of course the Spanish observed the Incan workers building stuff and the Incan workers were from Tiwanaku.

The problem with the 'molded' idea is that image of an incomplete block from PP that I have showed you. It shows a block with parts completed, started and in the rough.

Please explain how your theory covers that?

https://i.imgur.com/Dssmx1H.jpg

The core stones of the pyramid are not molded nor are any known structure - unless they made different molds for each stone.........

Additionally we have their quarries - why quarry rock, break it up (a hard task) only to reform it? Madness. 'The blanks' in the walls of quarries show quite clearly they removed blocks and weren't 'rubbling' it which is what you would need for 'concrete' or molding.

Additionally you avoided my full question: it will be repeated until answered.

You said that a civilization must have the following to carve stone (sic)



Please show that your imaginary had any of these?


TO ME...it looks like someone TRIED to duplicate the process, FAILED to make square corners, and quit.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:19 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post


TO ME...it looks like someone TRIED to duplicate the process, FAILED to make square corners, and quit.
Oh and all the other ones too? That not the only stone like that. What about those quarries with obvious squares cut out??

Still trying to avoid questions I see...lol..... okay you get three times then you concede you were wrong.

Quote: you said the following was needed for a civilization to carve stone

Quote:
large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language'
So again where is this for your civilization?

......or do you concede that you are wrong.

Now lets see your evidence for molding - I do hope you don't mention the Giza pyramids....lol
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:34 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
D'uh - that dates from 2002 dude when he was still on the job. He resigned on July 17, 2011

So you were still wrong. Are you one of strange people who can never admit when they make a mistake?
He built a wall around the place, and single-handed approved dig permits for decades, and you are arguing because he resigned a few years ago, but that he has no say anymore...?

Well, that settles it, I am now certain, Egyptology is finally an open democratic study, wherein actual historic truth is pursued.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:38 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Oh and all the other ones too? That not the only stone like that. What about those quarries with obvious squares cut out??

Still trying to avoid questions I see...lol..... okay you get three times then you concede you were wrong.

Quote: you said the following was needed for a civilization to carve stone



So again where is this for your civilization?

......or do you concede that you are wrong.

Now lets see your evidence for molding - I do hope you don't mention the Giza pyramids....lol
Why didn't you post pictures of these partial finished square corners?

My civilization?? 10,000+ years have a way of consuming artifacts.

I see evidence of molding at Puma Punku. I never mentioned it in connection to Giza.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd October 2017 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 09:39 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional?
Before the discovery of seafloor spreading the hypothesis of sunken continents was from time to time suggested to explain similar phenomena on both sides of oceans, like the similar plants and animals on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. But now we know that the Atlantic has opened and closed more than once in geological times, so the need for the hypothesis of vanished mystery continents has disappeared. There is no evidence for Atlantis, although it was a rational hypothesis in the nineteenth century, to explain the things I mentioned.

So we don't need to prove it didn't exist. As with all hypotheses, the burden of proof falls on people who say that things DO exist to prove they do. There is no requirement on anyone to prove they don't.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 10:51 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Why didn't you post pictures of these partial finished square corners?
1. Why haven't you seen that already. I mean you're still not commenting on material for which you have not yet read the foundational documents? I see no reason to spoon feed you material you refuse to read and will reject upon seeing it.

Quote:
My civilization?? 10,000+ years have a way of consuming artifacts.
We already discussed this stuff would survive, tons of stuff - remember the 400,000 year old wooden javelins pretending otherwise is just plain denial

Quote:
I see evidence of molding at Puma Punku.
Okay that's nice lets see the evidence

I KOTA concede that I was wrong for stating the following requirement: 'large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language', are needed for a civilization to carve stone.


This will be placed each time you bring it up again.

As a matter of fact I will be doing this for all the items you concede when you refuse to comment on them constructively.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 10:53 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
He built a wall around the place, and single-handed approved dig permits for decades, and you are arguing because he resigned a few years ago, but that he has no say anymore...?

Well, that settles it, I am now certain, Egyptology is finally an open democratic study, wherein actual historic truth is pursued.
2002 vs 2011 do the math..............chuckle

Playing dumb huh?

Still unable to admit you were wrong, tsk tsk. Its okay everyone can see you trying desperately to wiggle out.

Yep you are STILL wrong about Hawass....

I'm interested in seeing how long you will keep this up.....lol
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Old 22nd October 2017, 11:30 AM   #589
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Stone Molding Machines?
That don't produce identical stones? Each one is different.
How does a STM work?
Where is the supporting infrastructure that produced the STM?
Technology like that would not exist in isolation, there would be factories to produce it, factories to produce the machines that are in the STM factory. Power plants, factories to produce the power plants, factories to produce the materials that made the machines that produced the power plants and so on.

Sophisticated and advanced technology needs sophisticated and advanced infrastructure to produce it.
Take Railways for example. They the culmination of hundreds of years of development in science, technology and engineering that includes material science, engineering, physics, thermodynamics, metallurgy, mining, architecture, electricity, education, administration and logistics . Trains didn't just appear fully formed on the tracks and start running.

Last edited by Andy_Ross; 22nd October 2017 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 03:22 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

The holes?
When did bananas evolve? Why wouldn't bananas be found on both continents later, when they separated?

What is the date of the Egyptian pyramids and pyramids in the Americas? Why would they be the same builders?

Are the creatures , days, months and so on, the same in the western Zodiac and the Aztec calendar?
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:51 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
What is the date of the Egyptian pyramids and pyramids in the Americas? Why would they be the same builders?
Yeah PP is only 1700-1500 years old so its a bit hard to pretend they were built 10,000 years ago.

An assessment of the existing C-14 and ceramic datings of PP an associated sites:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...0ee27aadc0.pdf

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Old 22nd October 2017, 11:51 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional?
I thought it was obvious that I referred to the film. Well, you live and learn ...
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Old 23rd October 2017, 02:49 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
All the animal bones, the teeth, the shells, all of it? In private collections, spirited away without a single piece being found when the owner died, never being sold, never stolen and surfacing in the market later, never being donated to museums? Really?
Furthermore, how could you possibly know this? If all these missing artefacts are being held in private collections, and have never been shown to the public, how do you know they are there?
As for misattribution, perhaps you could share your expertise with the poor ignorant museum curators of the world, and clear this up? Again, with this point, how could you know this?
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Ridiculous?

Yes, what was not destroyed or carried away by the flood was collected and still exists, or has yet to be found. Google: "unexplainable ancient machines"

Shall we begin with Dr. Hawass, and how difficult it is to do research or dig at Giza?

I KNOW Puma Punku was NOT created using chisels because I have carved many kinds of stones using various tools.
Simply repeating your unevidenced and ridiculous claim does not make it any less ridiculous, nor does this count as evidence.

To reiterate: how do you know what is in private collections that you have never seen?
Do you have any answers to my other points beyond evasion and attempts to change the subject? (No, I will not be Googling 'unexplainable ancient machines'. That will in no way answer my questions).
If the evidence is yet to be found, as you claim, how do you know this, and how can you rely on as yet undiscovered evidence to support your ideas?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 04:07 AM   #594
Craig B
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I thought it was obvious that I referred to the film. Well, you live and learn ...
Sorry I misunderstood. But all manner of fictions are infesting this thread, and only some of them are films.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 04:39 AM   #595
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
1. Why haven't you seen that already. I mean you're still not commenting on material for which you have not yet read the foundational documents? I see no reason to spoon feed you material you refuse to read and will reject upon seeing it.



We already discussed this stuff would survive, tons of stuff - remember the 400,000 year old wooden javelins pretending otherwise is just plain denial



Okay that's nice lets see the evidence

I KOTA concede that I was wrong for stating the following requirement: 'large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language', are needed for a civilization to carve stone.


This will be placed each time you bring it up again.

As a matter of fact I will be doing this for all the items you concede when you refuse to comment on them constructively.
One, do you have a citation for spears 400,000 years old, because I need that feather for mine own hat. *Found it. http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/...t-wooden-spear

WOW...what does that mean? What sort of civilization might yield such an artifact?

*Depending on the size of the stone structure- large settlements, MANY tools, debris, and YES- a written language is required to building interlocking stones, such as those found at PP.

Use whatever font you'd like, it breaks up the monotony.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 04:40 AM   #596
King of the Americas
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
2002 vs 2011 do the math..............chuckle

Playing dumb huh?

Still unable to admit you were wrong, tsk tsk. Its okay everyone can see you trying desperately to wiggle out.

Yep you are STILL wrong about Hawass....

I'm interested in seeing how long you will keep this up.....lol
He resigned about 5 years ago, before that he ruled with an iron fist, and was responsible for naming his replacement.

Again, do you really think there is open democratic participation into the digging at Giza?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 07:13 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
He resigned about 5 years ago, before that he ruled with an iron fist, and was responsible for naming his replacement.
Still wrong and still trying to get out from under your mistake...lol
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Old 23rd October 2017, 07:55 AM   #598
Craig B
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
He resigned about 5 years ago, before that he ruled with an iron fist, and was responsible for naming his replacement.

Again, do you really think there is open democratic participation into the digging at Giza?
Are archaeological excavations performed by people chosen by "open democratic participation" - a vote on who should be there with a trowel? I thought the procedure was a science, not a public event.

Does this apply to other things, like surgical operations? Who gets to participate in the vote? In the case of surgery I suppose the patient might qualify, but in Egyptology referendums, is it the mummy who casts the deciding ballot? Or the Sphinx? Or some gang of Pyramidiots collecting material for a new book?
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Old 23rd October 2017, 08:45 AM   #599
Hans
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Are archaeological excavations performed by people chosen by "open democratic participation" - a vote on who should be there with a trowel? I thought the procedure was a science, not a public event.

Does this apply to other things, like surgical operations? Who gets to participate in the vote? In the case of surgery I suppose the patient might qualify, but in Egyptology referendums, is it the mummy who casts the deciding ballot? Or the Sphinx? Or some gang of Pyramidiots collecting material for a new book?
Getting a dig permit at Giza requires three things: (or more correct as it was, it may have changed under the new leadership)

1. You must submit a proposal for your project that outlines all aspects of it, from who, what, where, when, how and why - with emphasis on how it will be funded and any possible damage it might do and what is the expected outcome (documentary, paper, book, etc).

2. Your proposal must be guaranteed by an existing and acceptable academic/governmental/business enterprise, usually with one that has prior experience doing excavation/that type of project in Egypt.

3. You must agree in writing to all the rules set by the SCA to include forwarding all findings to them before publication and they may, if they wish, announce them themselves before publication takes place.

So if Suzie and Doug show up with two hundred kgs of C-4 to dynamite the Sphinx to find Cacye's 'Hall of records' they ain't goin anywhere.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 04:32 PM   #600
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Do hunter gatherers have kilns?
Yes. Hand formed pottery is a byproduct of open fire cooking and dates back 20,000 years.

The oldest potter's wheel however is only 5,000 years old from Mesopotamia.

That is another big hole for your claim lifted from that 1961 fantasy movie "Atlantis: The Lost Continent". There was no pottery made on a wheel at Göbekli Tepe
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