My Doctor Prescribed Accupuncture For My Tendinitis - Page 5

Skeptic Ginger · 29th January 2022, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by digger

There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/

Not exactly acupuncture.

Quote:

In the current study, researchers used electroacupuncture — a modern version of the traditional manual approach that involves the insertion of ultra-thin needles just under the skin in various areas of the body. Instead of needles, electroacupuncture uses very thin electrodes inserted into the skin and into the connective tissue, offering better control of stimulation intensities.

Building on previous research pointing to neurotransmitters’ role in inflammation regulation, the researchers focused on two specific cell types known to secrete them — chromaffin cells that reside in the adrenal glands and noradrenergic neurons that are located in the peripheral nerve system and directly connected to the spleen through an abundance of nerve fibers.

This is the kind of research that misleads physicians into thinking there is something to acupuncture after all. Electrostimulation is not the same thing as sticking needles into supposed magical acupuncture sites.

ScienceDaily: Evidence in mice that electroacupuncture reduces inflammation via specific neural pathways

Quote:

However, when the team gave mice the electroacupuncture after the LPS shot, the treated mice had much greater inflammation than those that were untreated and did not survive.

By comparing the effect of electroacupuncture in mice with an altered nervous system, the team determined that high intensity stimulation at the abdomen could excite norepinephrine-producing nerves that connect the spine and spleen. The norepinephrine then activated a particular type of receptors in the spleen that suppressed pro-inflammatory molecules. But when LPS was introduced first, another type of splenic receptors -- pro-inflammatory in this case -- became highly expressed, and the subsequent electroacupuncture therapy further enhanced inflammation. ...

... The team then conducted electroacupuncture at a different acupoint, this time on mice's hindlegs. They found stimulation at a low intensity of 0.5 mA for 15 minutes could significantly reduce pro-inflammatory molecule levels either before or after LPS-injection.

Somatotopic Organization and Intensity Dependence in Driving Distinct NPY-Expressing Sympathetic Pathways by Electroacupuncture

Quote:

The neuroanatomical basis behind acupuncture practice is still poorly understood. Here, we used intersectional genetic strategy to ablate NPY+ noradrenergic neurons and/or adrenal chromaffin cells. Using endotoxin-induced systemic inflammation as a model, we found that electroacupuncture stimulation (ES) drives sympathetic pathways in somatotopy- and intensity-dependent manners. Low-intensity ES at hindlimb regions drives the vagal-adrenal axis, producing anti-inflammatory effects that depend on NPY+ adrenal chromaffin cells. High-intensity ES at the abdomen activates NPY+ splenic noradrenergic neurons via the spinal-sympathetic axis; these neurons engage incoherent feedforward regulatory loops via activation of distinct adrenergic receptors (ARs), and their ES-evoked activation produces either anti- or pro-inflammatory effects due to disease-state-dependent changes in AR profiles. The revelation of somatotopic organization and intensity dependency in driving distinct autonomic pathways could form a road map for optimizing stimulation parameters to improve both efficacy and safety in using acupuncture as a therapeutic modality.

Acupuncture apologetics?

Get back to me when they actually do research on acupuncture.

Carrot Flower King · 30th January 2022, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by digger

There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/

It's not acupuncture (again), but electro-acupuncture, which isn't acupuncture, but more akin to TENS...

Not to mention some of the old problems of acupuncture "research" - being conducted or co-conducted by Chinese institutions with a vested interest (look at the funding sources).

And even then the lead author says, "This observation underscores the idea that if practiced inappropriately, acupuncture could have detrimental results, which I don’t think is something people necessarily appreciate”

Next...

Darat · 30th January 2022, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by digger

There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/

They aren't difficult - the problem is that lots of people forget what acupuncture is meant to be and how it is meant to work - which is to alter the "flow and balance" of magic forces to cure everything from hay fever to psoriasis to drug addiction. It is not meant to reduce inflammation.

All one needs to test it is to compare patients which have had the needles inserted where the magicians claim they will balance and alter the flow of the magic (known as Qi) and patients which have the needles placed in different places.

It's akin to how people forget the likes of Feng-shui are about ghosts, demons and magic spells not making a room feel nice! That's known as "interior decorating" and that has firm scientific roots!

Carrot Flower King · 30th January 2022, 12:34 PM

Are we going to talk about acupuncture or things which are not acupuncture?

A load of things which aren't acupuncture seem to have sneaked in (and the evidence isn't any much better).

Hellbound · 30th January 2022, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

They aren't difficult - the problem is that lots of people forget what acupuncture is meant to be and how it is meant to work - which is to alter the "flow and balance" of magic forces to cure everything from hay fever to psoriasis to drug addiction. It is not meant to reduce inflammation.

All one needs to test it is to compare patients which have had the needles inserted where the magicians claim they will balance and alter the flow of the magic (known as Qi) and patients which have the needles placed in different places.

It's akin to how people forget the likes of Feng-shui are about ghosts, demons and magic spells not making a room feel nice! That's known as "interior decorating" and that has firm scientific roots!

Much like there is a difference between Surgery and randomly stabbing a person.

Equating one with the other is contra-indicated.

Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon.

mgidm86 · 31st January 2022, 09:42 PM

All 3 doctors I have encountered have defended acupuncture by telling me:

- that 1/3 of patients have positive results
- that it works best with people who believe it will

Nothing else, no matter what I asked or presented.

They have ******* acupuncturists working for them yet they can't tell me a damn thing about it! "Come on, sell me something! Convince me!"

And of course the mouse study mentioned above is bull, go figure. Thanks for pointing that out folks!

bruto · 31st January 2022, 10:26 PM

This reminds me of a joke ...

A man is feeling kind of off, so he goes to the doctor who recommends he send a urine sample to a lab for analysis. The report comes back, "you have iron deficiency, low calcium and tennis elbow." What the ? That's crazy. He sends another sample in, and it comes back "you have iron deficiency, low calcium and tennis elbow." He decides this has to be a scam, so the next time he sends in a sample he puts in some water and wanks in it. The report comes back, "you have iron deficiency, low calcium, and if you don't stop that you'll never get rid of your tennis elbow."

Darat · 3rd February 2022, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Hellbound

Much like there is a difference between Surgery and randomly stabbing a person.

Equating one with the other is contra-indicated.

Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon.

Trainee surgeons have to start somewhere!

Caroline13 · 6th February 2022, 05:38 PM

You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years.

Carlotta · 6th February 2022, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years.

As was foot-binding. When will you be trying that?

Carrot Flower King · 7th February 2022, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Caroline13

You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years.

No, it wasn't: acupuncture as currently practised was essentially invented in the 1960s; historical acupuncture was more akin to blood letting. I'd put up a couple of links, but this has been done before and still the same nonsens claims are made.

And one does not need to try something to know it has no basis in anatomy, physiology or anything much. Re-write all the science and clear up on Nobel prizes and book contracts...

Carrot Flower King · 7th February 2022, 10:59 AM

Just in case anyone is interested, it was a number of posts on Respectful Insolence addressing the history of acupuncture I referred to above.

29th January 2022, 10:10 PM	#161
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91,563	Originally Posted by digger There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/ Not exactly acupuncture. Quote: In the current study, researchers used electroacupuncture — a modern version of the traditional manual approach that involves the insertion of ultra-thin needles just under the skin in various areas of the body. Instead of needles, electroacupuncture uses very thin electrodes inserted into the skin and into the connective tissue, offering better control of stimulation intensities. Building on previous research pointing to neurotransmitters’ role in inflammation regulation, the researchers focused on two specific cell types known to secrete them — chromaffin cells that reside in the adrenal glands and noradrenergic neurons that are located in the peripheral nerve system and directly connected to the spleen through an abundance of nerve fibers. This is the kind of research that misleads physicians into thinking there is something to acupuncture after all. Electrostimulation is not the same thing as sticking needles into supposed magical acupuncture sites. ScienceDaily: Evidence in mice that electroacupuncture reduces inflammation via specific neural pathways Quote: However, when the team gave mice the electroacupuncture after the LPS shot, the treated mice had much greater inflammation than those that were untreated and did not survive. By comparing the effect of electroacupuncture in mice with an altered nervous system, the team determined that high intensity stimulation at the abdomen could excite norepinephrine-producing nerves that connect the spine and spleen. The norepinephrine then activated a particular type of receptors in the spleen that suppressed pro-inflammatory molecules. But when LPS was introduced first, another type of splenic receptors -- pro-inflammatory in this case -- became highly expressed, and the subsequent electroacupuncture therapy further enhanced inflammation. ... ... The team then conducted electroacupuncture at a different acupoint, this time on mice's hindlegs. They found stimulation at a low intensity of 0.5 mA for 15 minutes could significantly reduce pro-inflammatory molecule levels either before or after LPS-injection. Somatotopic Organization and Intensity Dependence in Driving Distinct NPY-Expressing Sympathetic Pathways by Electroacupuncture Quote: The neuroanatomical basis behind acupuncture practice is still poorly understood. Here, we used intersectional genetic strategy to ablate NPY+ noradrenergic neurons and/or adrenal chromaffin cells. Using endotoxin-induced systemic inflammation as a model, we found that electroacupuncture stimulation (ES) drives sympathetic pathways in somatotopy- and intensity-dependent manners. Low-intensity ES at hindlimb regions drives the vagal-adrenal axis, producing anti-inflammatory effects that depend on NPY+ adrenal chromaffin cells. High-intensity ES at the abdomen activates NPY+ splenic noradrenergic neurons via the spinal-sympathetic axis; these neurons engage incoherent feedforward regulatory loops via activation of distinct adrenergic receptors (ARs), and their ES-evoked activation produces either anti- or pro-inflammatory effects due to disease-state-dependent changes in AR profiles. The revelation of somatotopic organization and intensity dependency in driving distinct autonomic pathways could form a road map for optimizing stimulation parameters to improve both efficacy and safety in using acupuncture as a therapeutic modality. Acupuncture apologetics? Get back to me when they actually do research on acupuncture.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 29th January 2022 at 10:11 PM.

30th January 2022, 08:35 AM	#163
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,791	Originally Posted by digger There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/ They aren't difficult - the problem is that lots of people forget what acupuncture is meant to be and how it is meant to work - which is to alter the "flow and balance" of magic forces to cure everything from hay fever to psoriasis to drug addiction. It is not meant to reduce inflammation. All one needs to test it is to compare patients which have had the needles inserted where the magicians claim they will balance and alter the flow of the magic (known as Qi) and patients which have the needles placed in different places. It's akin to how people forget the likes of Feng-shui are about ghosts, demons and magic spells not making a room feel nice! That's known as "interior decorating" and that has firm scientific roots!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you Last edited by Darat; 30th January 2022 at 08:36 AM. Reason: words

30th January 2022, 01:25 PM	#165
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 14,829	Originally Posted by Darat They aren't difficult - the problem is that lots of people forget what acupuncture is meant to be and how it is meant to work - which is to alter the "flow and balance" of magic forces to cure everything from hay fever to psoriasis to drug addiction. It is not meant to reduce inflammation. All one needs to test it is to compare patients which have had the needles inserted where the magicians claim they will balance and alter the flow of the magic (known as Qi) and patients which have the needles placed in different places. It's akin to how people forget the likes of Feng-shui are about ghosts, demons and magic spells not making a room feel nice! That's known as "interior decorating" and that has firm scientific roots! Much like there is a difference between Surgery and randomly stabbing a person. Equating one with the other is contra-indicated. Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon.
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

31st January 2022, 09:42 PM	#166
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,735	All 3 doctors I have encountered have defended acupuncture by telling me: - that 1/3 of patients have positive results - that it works best with people who believe it will Nothing else, no matter what I asked or presented. They have ******* acupuncturists working for them yet they can't tell me a damn thing about it! "Come on, sell me something! Convince me!" And of course the mouse study mentioned above is bull, go figure. Thanks for pointing that out folks!
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,735	__________________ A zombie would starve here.

31st January 2022, 10:26 PM	#167
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 32,338	This reminds me of a joke ... A man is feeling kind of off, so he goes to the doctor who recommends he send a urine sample to a lab for analysis. The report comes back, "you have iron deficiency, low calcium and tennis elbow." What the ? That's crazy. He sends another sample in, and it comes back "you have iron deficiency, low calcium and tennis elbow." He decides this has to be a scam, so the next time he sends in a sample he puts in some water and wanks in it. The report comes back, "you have iron deficiency, low calcium, and if you don't stop that you'll never get rid of your tennis elbow."
	__________________ I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver) "There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)

30th January 2022, 04:28 AM	#162
Carrot Flower King Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 2,377	Originally Posted by digger There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/ It's not acupuncture (again), but electro-acupuncture, which isn't acupuncture, but more akin to TENS... Not to mention some of the old problems of acupuncture "research" - being conducted or co-conducted by Chinese institutions with a vested interest (look at the funding sources). And even then the lead author says, "This observation underscores the idea that if practiced inappropriately, acupuncture could have detrimental results, which I don’t think is something people necessarily appreciate” Next...

30th January 2022, 12:34 PM	#164
Carrot Flower King Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 2,377	Are we going to talk about acupuncture or things which are not acupuncture? A load of things which aren't acupuncture seem to have sneaked in (and the evidence isn't any much better).

3rd February 2022, 08:06 AM	#168
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 101,791	Originally Posted by Hellbound Much like there is a difference between Surgery and randomly stabbing a person. Equating one with the other is contra-indicated. Sent from my volcanic island lair using carrier pigeon. Trainee surgeons have to start somewhere!
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

6th February 2022, 05:38 PM	#169
Caroline13 Banned Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: So Calif. Posts: 1,317	You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years.

6th February 2022, 05:41 PM	#170
Carlotta Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 787	Originally Posted by Caroline13 You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years. As was foot-binding. When will you be trying that?

7th February 2022, 03:12 AM	#171
Carrot Flower King Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 2,377	Originally Posted by Caroline13 You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years. No, it wasn't: acupuncture as currently practised was essentially invented in the 1960s; historical acupuncture was more akin to blood letting. I'd put up a couple of links, but this has been done before and still the same nonsens claims are made. And one does not need to try something to know it has no basis in anatomy, physiology or anything much. Re-write all the science and clear up on Nobel prizes and book contracts...

7th February 2022, 10:59 AM	#172
Carrot Flower King Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 2,377	Just in case anyone is interested, it was a number of posts on Respectful Insolence addressing the history of acupuncture I referred to above.