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Old 29th January 2022, 10:10 PM   #161
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/
Not exactly acupuncture.

Quote:
In the current study, researchers used electroacupuncture — a modern version of the traditional manual approach that involves the insertion of ultra-thin needles just under the skin in various areas of the body. Instead of needles, electroacupuncture uses very thin electrodes inserted into the skin and into the connective tissue, offering better control of stimulation intensities.

Building on previous research pointing to neurotransmitters’ role in inflammation regulation, the researchers focused on two specific cell types known to secrete them — chromaffin cells that reside in the adrenal glands and noradrenergic neurons that are located in the peripheral nerve system and directly connected to the spleen through an abundance of nerve fibers.
This is the kind of research that misleads physicians into thinking there is something to acupuncture after all. Electrostimulation is not the same thing as sticking needles into supposed magical acupuncture sites.

ScienceDaily: Evidence in mice that electroacupuncture reduces inflammation via specific neural pathways
Quote:
However, when the team gave mice the electroacupuncture after the LPS shot, the treated mice had much greater inflammation than those that were untreated and did not survive.

By comparing the effect of electroacupuncture in mice with an altered nervous system, the team determined that high intensity stimulation at the abdomen could excite norepinephrine-producing nerves that connect the spine and spleen. The norepinephrine then activated a particular type of receptors in the spleen that suppressed pro-inflammatory molecules. But when LPS was introduced first, another type of splenic receptors -- pro-inflammatory in this case -- became highly expressed, and the subsequent electroacupuncture therapy further enhanced inflammation. ...

... The team then conducted electroacupuncture at a different acupoint, this time on mice's hindlegs. They found stimulation at a low intensity of 0.5 mA for 15 minutes could significantly reduce pro-inflammatory molecule levels either before or after LPS-injection.

Somatotopic Organization and Intensity Dependence in Driving Distinct NPY-Expressing Sympathetic Pathways by Electroacupuncture
Quote:
The neuroanatomical basis behind acupuncture practice is still poorly understood. Here, we used intersectional genetic strategy to ablate NPY+ noradrenergic neurons and/or adrenal chromaffin cells. Using endotoxin-induced systemic inflammation as a model, we found that electroacupuncture stimulation (ES) drives sympathetic pathways in somatotopy- and intensity-dependent manners. Low-intensity ES at hindlimb regions drives the vagal-adrenal axis, producing anti-inflammatory effects that depend on NPY+ adrenal chromaffin cells. High-intensity ES at the abdomen activates NPY+ splenic noradrenergic neurons via the spinal-sympathetic axis; these neurons engage incoherent feedforward regulatory loops via activation of distinct adrenergic receptors (ARs), and their ES-evoked activation produces either anti- or pro-inflammatory effects due to disease-state-dependent changes in AR profiles. The revelation of somatotopic organization and intensity dependency in driving distinct autonomic pathways could form a road map for optimizing stimulation parameters to improve both efficacy and safety in using acupuncture as a therapeutic modality.
Acupuncture apologetics?

Get back to me when they actually do research on acupuncture.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 29th January 2022 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:28 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/
It's not acupuncture (again), but electro-acupuncture, which isn't acupuncture, but more akin to TENS...

Not to mention some of the old problems of acupuncture "research" - being conducted or co-conducted by Chinese institutions with a vested interest (look at the funding sources).

And even then the lead author says, "This observation underscores the idea that if practiced inappropriately, acupuncture could have detrimental results, which I don’t think is something people necessarily appreciate”

Next...
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Old 30th January 2022, 08:35 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
There is evidence that acupuncture reduces inflammation in mice. Double blind studies on humans are difficult, for practical reasons.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...isease-course/
They aren't difficult - the problem is that lots of people forget what acupuncture is meant to be and how it is meant to work - which is to alter the "flow and balance" of magic forces to cure everything from hay fever to psoriasis to drug addiction. It is not meant to reduce inflammation.

All one needs to test it is to compare patients which have had the needles inserted where the magicians claim they will balance and alter the flow of the magic (known as Qi) and patients which have the needles placed in different places.

It's akin to how people forget the likes of Feng-shui are about ghosts, demons and magic spells not making a room feel nice! That's known as "interior decorating" and that has firm scientific roots!
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Last edited by Darat; 30th January 2022 at 08:36 AM. Reason: words
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Old 30th January 2022, 12:34 PM   #164
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Are we going to talk about acupuncture or things which are not acupuncture?

A load of things which aren't acupuncture seem to have sneaked in (and the evidence isn't any much better).
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Old 30th January 2022, 01:25 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
They aren't difficult - the problem is that lots of people forget what acupuncture is meant to be and how it is meant to work - which is to alter the "flow and balance" of magic forces to cure everything from hay fever to psoriasis to drug addiction. It is not meant to reduce inflammation.

All one needs to test it is to compare patients which have had the needles inserted where the magicians claim they will balance and alter the flow of the magic (known as Qi) and patients which have the needles placed in different places.

It's akin to how people forget the likes of Feng-shui are about ghosts, demons and magic spells not making a room feel nice! That's known as "interior decorating" and that has firm scientific roots!

Much like there is a difference between Surgery and randomly stabbing a person.

Equating one with the other is contra-indicated.


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Old 31st January 2022, 09:42 PM   #166
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All 3 doctors I have encountered have defended acupuncture by telling me:

- that 1/3 of patients have positive results
- that it works best with people who believe it will

Nothing else, no matter what I asked or presented.

They have ******* acupuncturists working for them yet they can't tell me a damn thing about it! "Come on, sell me something! Convince me!"

And of course the mouse study mentioned above is bull, go figure. Thanks for pointing that out folks!
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Old 31st January 2022, 10:26 PM   #167
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This reminds me of a joke ...

A man is feeling kind of off, so he goes to the doctor who recommends he send a urine sample to a lab for analysis. The report comes back, "you have iron deficiency, low calcium and tennis elbow." What the ? That's crazy. He sends another sample in, and it comes back "you have iron deficiency, low calcium and tennis elbow." He decides this has to be a scam, so the next time he sends in a sample he puts in some water and wanks in it. The report comes back, "you have iron deficiency, low calcium, and if you don't stop that you'll never get rid of your tennis elbow."
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Old 3rd February 2022, 08:06 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Much like there is a difference between Surgery and randomly stabbing a person.

Equating one with the other is contra-indicated.


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Old 6th February 2022, 05:38 PM   #169
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You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years.
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Old 6th February 2022, 05:41 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years.
As was foot-binding. When will you be trying that?
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Old 7th February 2022, 03:12 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Caroline13 View Post
You won't know if you don't try. Used in China for 1000's of years.
No, it wasn't: acupuncture as currently practised was essentially invented in the 1960s; historical acupuncture was more akin to blood letting. I'd put up a couple of links, but this has been done before and still the same nonsens claims are made.

And one does not need to try something to know it has no basis in anatomy, physiology or anything much. Re-write all the science and clear up on Nobel prizes and book contracts...
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Old 7th February 2022, 10:59 AM   #172
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Just in case anyone is interested, it was a number of posts on Respectful Insolence addressing the history of acupuncture I referred to above.
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